Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
askz
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#31

Unread post by askz » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:33 am

KM1 wrote:Askz

Yes you were born in dawoodi bohra house but still we had a choice to be or not because misaaq is been taken at the age where we understand and also after that we have a choice of leaving the community. But I am dawoodi Bohra because I love my Mola (TUS) and in is preaching.

Regarding keeping someone alive or dead is not in any human being hands its allah wish and only he can decide so please stop this nonsense talk.
dear Km1,
how would you define Misaaq? in the name of misaaq what kind of extortions are done? why is money so important to kotharis? my friend to follow somebody who preaches good things is absolutely fine no issues but what the abdes are doing these days is utter nonsense. its the system on which you find people turning into reformist. nobody is challenging the Him as being the daai but the community is tired of money hoarding and partiality. you said you love maula(tus) but ask yourself isnt it your responsibility to stand against what is unjust. love should come from true heart not just by your actions and stupid ideologies. in olden days daais used to live simple life but where is this simplicity gone? he is a spiritual leader not a monarch. if he is a person of true deen then why does he allow his subjects to remain unhappy. mind you here i am talking of the unjust in the name of taxes. you said i am talking nonsense about keeping him alive or dead. bro just tell me if your father is in such a deforming condition will you display him and earn money.? if you are a true follower than you wont shut your eyes . they have amassed enough wealth that will last them their 7 generations but still they crave for more. may be at your thinking you will never be able to think as your quote"but still we had a choice to be or not because misaaq is been taken at the age where we understand and also after that we have a choice of leaving the community is a totally brainwashed abde thinking

mnoorani
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:05 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#32

Unread post by mnoorani » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:57 am

Mnoorani
I can understand what type of character you must be
Your thinking caps works only between your two legs and nothing else
Hello ! Is not the pass it on going on in the Dai's family????
Devar marrying the bhabi, jamai with saali etc, etc.LOL

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#33

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:49 pm

The whole trumpeting of following the bohra leader is a farce. What bohra community is following is convenience.

Most of bohras are now turning into show off zombies, rather then have real philanthropic intentions.

Being poor in this abde community is being gunhegaar. Riches are blessed by syedna and those sayedna blesses becomes rich. Material wealth is associated with barakaat granted by sayedna.

Kothar keeps acquaintance only with riches of the towns. Poors are the eyesore for kkothar, conveniently neglected or covered in flashy but hollow upliftment schemes which is also funded by the poor themselves.

By any standard kothar is not even a inch closer to be called a leader. they fit to be called "rulers". infact thats what they take pride in calling themselves.

Question of looking for a new leader does not arise. Question is to be your own leader, guide your actions on common sense, compassion, honest conduct.

Frankly speakking, most of abdes are not even following sayedna, they want to fit in and be seen and heard.

Someone boasted of Misaaq ! which is given or taken (whatever) at age of 14 - 16. Forget that age, ask a full grown commoner abde, he would not remember or understand implication of such opressive misaaq.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#34

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:22 pm

humanbeing wrote:
By any standard kothar is not even a inch closer to be called a leader. they fit to be called "rulers". infact thats what they take pride in calling themselves.

Question of looking for a new leader does not arise. Question is to be your own leader, guide your actions on common sense, compassion, honest conduct.
excellent quote, humanbeing!

Bohra spring
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#35

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:38 pm

Diai as a community leader should be changed...

Create positions of diai as spiritual ceremonial leader
Create position of director general as administrative leader
Create financial independence for both leaders and create an environment of decision by consensus or balanced majority

Selection by a transparent way , by rigorous interviews or a type of democratic process
No connection to spirituality or Devine appointment
Encourage all bohras to excel in scholarly pursuits to back candidacy with knowledge and ability

All worldly regions to have say in appointing administrative reps through local democratic processes and amils, weighting based on population size.

Avoid factions and lobbyists

Separation of powers, treasury to be retained at local control, central office to receive a share of local collections as subscription. Central authority to be transparent and auditable. Same with local treasury.

Corruption is punishable by excommunication ( i could have proposed death ) and ban from all future positions.

Separation of theology and administration also, no interference of administrators with spirituality.

Positions expire every 5 years ...leaders cannot be older than 85 years old !, direct relatives cannot be selected or appointed...eg son can not follow father, only after 5 years break where someone else not related was leading

Allow women to hold position of leadership , insist at least 25% representative of any type of minority eg, women, youth, non India , non Pakistan regions, etc.

Creat a ethics committee that ensures Bohra ideology is tolerant of society that it has to live within, eg ban fgm, stop cursing Sunni , assimilate , etc

Honour all prominent personalities to contribute to the well being of the community ...

The above intent can be refined as we go along

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#36

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:28 pm

KM1 wrote:still we are most respected community and we are still known for our integrity and honesty.
Parsis are a more respectable community even though they are hardly 10% in numbers as compared to Bohras. Ask yourself, do they have a leader ?? NO.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#37

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:25 pm

Bohora Spring/OZ,
You've a right to your opinions and are free to express them here but next time when you write about change of leadership and a new setpup etc., please preface them as your own personal comments. What you say is not the official reformist agenda, you comments may be misperceived as such and used against the reformists. I admire your enthusiasm for change and reform, but the official reform movement does not share either your ideology or method. Al Zulfiqar has summed the reformist position quite accurately earlier in the thread, and much on similar lines has been discussed already, many times over. Please do not bring up the same topic again and again.
Changing of leadership and electing/appointing a new dai is ignorant and irresponsible talk. The Fatimid Dawat, such as it is, is not an inherently democratic system - and for better or worse - if we are to remain Dawoodi Bohras we are tied to this system. Choosing a dai by the public this system does not permit. This is the fundamental truth of our beliefs and traditions. Yes we can agitate for change and highlight the corruption. The current dawat leadership is arrogant and drunk on its ill-gotten wealth and power but this is not going to last for ever. When Bohras become aware and educated and achieve that critical mass they will force the leadership to change. Our aim should be to educate bohras, show them our true religion and heritage. Since we can't change the leadership, our only hope is that an enlightened people will compel the leadership to become enlightened. This would be a true bottom-up reform. This is a slow, steady and long road to change - but this the only option we have.
On the other hand all this talk of electing a dai and setting up treasury and all that jazz sounds very exciting and smacks of political revolution. It's a good thing to be inspired by Arab Spring, but the context and character of our fight is different. If you want to continue to be identified as Dawoodi Bohra then you have no option but to work within the framework set by the reform movement. Either you can join forces and strengthen the movement or continue to spout "revolutionary" ideology and remain irrelevant. The choice is yours. The only problem is that if you choose the latter, you will weaken the movement and create confusion.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:51 pm

Our aim should be to educate bohras, show them our true religion and heritage.
"true religion"???. Seriously? I thought I'd be dead before I would see you talking about your very own "true" religion.

I prefer talking about replacing the leadership rather than having them lower their beds for you to get in them. One shouldn't care about strengthening a reform movement that doesn't want to weaken or replace a corrupt leadership!!

Bohra spring
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#39

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:33 pm

Humsafar....what is your position in the movement and if my ask how did you rise to that position ?

What I know about myself : Bohra Spring does not hold any position in PDB , is not funded by PDB...the only favour PDB provides is access to this site. BS will challenge any form of autocratic appointments so we never ever make the same mistakes ever no more single handed abuse of power.

Will my suggestions derail your ( if different from PDB) agenda...you bet it will, do I speak for others probably yes.

..can we negotiate an alignment...why would I with you ...your response indicates you can not differentiate your approach to the basket case we have now....your approach can easily be abused so that we have another stooge and all we see is a different tyrant....

would you expect reward for you participation in the PDB if PDB does win influence sometime soon ? will you get in the way of unknown budding leaders ?

Do I care whether I am excommunicated ( did you insist I comply with the alternative offered) by PDB or a faction of the opposition for expressing my thoughts...I don't care ..LOL...some things are genetically engarined which ever way you lean !

but it is important this is made clear ! Whatever the consequence of this discussion people are looking for leadership to improve their society...not replace some elements ....

I think you need to assess your own contribution to the PDB movement and determine do you represent the asiprations of the future ?

I cannot stop you preaching your ideology or method but respectfully do not get in others way or trample on their right to express !

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#40

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:16 am

Hum safar mis understood my remark to Az...any way I will start a new topic ...
Democratic aspirations within the New Bohra Community...

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#41

Unread post by zinger » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:21 am

Humsafar wrote:Since we can't change the leadership, our only hope is that an enlightened people will compel the leadership to become enlightened. This would be a true bottom-up reform. This is a slow, steady and long road to change - but this the only option we have.
.
Well said and very true Mr. Humsafar.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#42

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:16 pm

Humsafar wrote:This would be a true bottom-up reform.
in a lighter vein... a most unfortunate choice of words - "This would be a true bottom-up reform".!!

it is this tendency of abdes to promptly fall into bottom-up sajdas, which provides the real source of power for the tyrant clergy. i would rather, in the community's context, have a bottom-down and heads-up-and-held-high reform.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#43

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:38 pm

anajmi/Bohra Spring,
You talk about "replacing leadership" as if this were some kind of political system that is step for change in leadership by popular vote. The reform movement is rooted in bohra beliefs, and within this belief system there is no provision - or precedent - of Dai being appointed/elected by the people. So your talk about "replacing" leadership is nothing more than loose and ignorant talk. You two gentlemen could be talking about anything under the sun but the accepted Bohra reality. This is not say that we want to get in bed with the corrupt leadership, if that were the case there would be no reform movement. I'm simply pointing out the Borha doctrinal reality and the framework within which the reform movement has to work.
One more thing, the corrupt Bohra leadership is a relatively new phenomenon, history does not offer any similar situation where part of the community were opposed to the dai for such a long period of time. So in the absence of any historical guidelines, reformist are dealing with the situation the best they can without losing their Borha identity. We're learning as we go along. But this much is certain, if we start talking about new leadership than we might as well start our own little sect and be done with it. The reform movement has rejected that alternative. This way we at least have a fighting chance of bring about some reform.
But those of who are howling for new leadership please go ahead and do just that, and establish your utopia. The only problem is that you won't be Dawoodi Bohras. Of course, for anajmi this doesn't mean much because he already is not one. He is just here to expound on his true, pristine Islam and pull down everyone else who go astary from the straight and narrow of sunnah. And Bohra Spring, I feel for you passion and energy, but if you continue with your misguided zeal you might end up alone, bereft of your heritage and identity.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#44

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:00 am

The reform movement is rooted in bohra beliefs
Actually, the reform movement is rooted in bohra clergy corruption. But you might just say that now I am splitting hairs!!

To say that what is happening with the bohras is a new phenomenon is to demonstrate ignorance of history and I know you are not ignorant of history. Maybe you have your own agenda. There are several sects within the Shias and they each came about when people didn't agree with their leadership. The Alavi bohras got their own Dai and are much better off than the Dawoodi abdes. Ofcourse, these days, their Dai is also suffering from delusions of grandeur and there are reformists within the Alavi bohras as well.
So your talk about "replacing" leadership is nothing more than loose and ignorant talk.
Well said humsafar. Looks like you have already begun talking like the kotharis. If Humsafar doesn't want to cut the chord that binds him to the current Dai, then so be it. People are free to talk about changing leadership and even changing the reform movement. To say that one shouldn't be talking about reforming the reform movement is to display the characteristics of the kotharis.

There are two different aspects to consider over here. One is the social aspect and the other is the religious aspect. Humsafar couldn't care less about the religious aspect. He doesn't give a shit if the Dai follows the Quran and Sunnah of the prophet (saw) or not. All he cares about is the social aspect of this "Dawoodi-Bohra" undertaking, which according to him would be the true Islam. And then we blame others for using religion for their own selfish goals!!

You know, it's a pity that the accepted bohra reality, notwithstanding the "reform" movement, is to be forever tied to this Dai. What a shame!!

Bohra spring
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#45

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:21 am

but if you continue with your misguided zeal you might end up alone, bereft of your heritage and identity.
Humsafar why is it that you accuse my idea as misguided...Islam is full of democratic systems, I have in my other post given you evidence based that Quarn also permits democracy...most successfult Silamic sects practise a form of democracy.

You are confusing the succession of the Prophet SAW with democratically selecting a community leader.

Do you not realise the contradiction with the PDB agenda...you disagree with how the current Diai runs the office, does nass on mansoos. If you accept his appointment process why then object to his instructions ! Unless you are saying you want to choose what instructions to listen and what not to ? Is that not a form of democracy ?

It is obviously strange that PDB will not go the step to ensure in future a Diai is selected fairly so that he can operate fairly and if he does not there is a method to remove him. The ducking and excitement in your reaction indicates there is something that is not trasparent in your motives...I am not sure this your personal position or a PDB agenda ...I do not think we should be fooling people who come on this site to validate their faith. And I notice the silence from other PDB members and I can understand this is a new concept in Bohraism, but democracy is sweet, sustainable, human behaviour, and feared by those few who are going to loose power and control.

PDB members and myself are happy to trash the Diai's reputation, and some go as far as promote Qutbdudin as a potential diai when there is no proof that Mazoon was nominated by a Imam or righfully selected Diai , when you have no access to Imam. Why is it ok for you or PDB to write big white papers and talk about suppression, oppression , ask for accountability but not have a strategy to fix the problem.

You claim there is no historical basis of misuse of power, power and leadership also means how has the Diai protected and promoted the faith...if you look at our history the Diai's have infact lost passengers through history...a complete Dynasty got wiped out and only remnants are left who survived as a minority in various parts of the globe ... I would question the capability and competency of the Diais, how can the Imam hide behind the excuse of seclusion when they inherited the Prophets religion which in relative terms was a large empire across continents is now a mono-tribal cult in a state in India.

If the Diai was a CEO of a corporation and the Imam the Board, the shareholder Ahlul Bayt would have fired them long ago for not growing the business.

You also imply eg Mahatma Gandhi should have reformed the British Raaj and allowed a some freedom for the colonial subjects. Even Muhammad SAW had to resetablish the establishment and create a new team...he did not reform the pagan Makkah Chiefs . Bohraism is not in need of reform it is need of complete refurbishment...

I am promoting and looking for a leader who will march so that leadership must be changed, the process of selection must be changed, scriptures have to be revisited so the polluted ideology is removed, madrasah books have to reviewed and remove the shirk, misuse of terms, ideology aligned to Islam and Shia Islam. It is not a simple deck chair change...50 years of distortion in every aspect has to cleansed.

You may want me to disappear with such a radical proposition and you are right may be the PDB is a group of people hoping for minor reforms and it is not the right group. But I will continue promoting the bohra spring...my only concern is PDB as it stands have a few choices...you can proceed with small pussy footing and hope the a Diai ( you have not explained how he will be chossen and how you will make sure he is authentic) you have faith will listen to your demands...good luck ! , meanwhile tolerate diversity of views !

Or revisit your vision, change the method and be more assertive, attract new orthdox youth, offer a real alternative where the future freedom and prosperity is guranteed , and try to go back to Islam. When you change I will be back in your camp.

There is a really bad and easy option, and this may be more likely Bohras enjoy the cult religion and the mystisim as it is , and as a prominent PDB member wrote in milligazette , divert from Islam and go their own way. If that is the case PDB in its current form will be unsuccessful.

So as this topic says yes the ship is sinking ...but there ship that is around to jump on...so I and others will use it to reach saftety and when we reach the shore the captain at sea is not the automatic village chief, we will sort out it then ..the survivors will decide !

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#46

Unread post by zinger » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:02 am

Dear Humsafar and Bohra Spring,

You have both made very, very strong and compelling arguments, but yes Humsafar saab, i will be on your side.

Bohra Spring, what you are proposing is not wrong, but you need to understand that the Dawoodi Bohra is a religion, a sect, not a club or a country where you can have elections and choose your leader. Sorry brother, but that is the truth, the incumbent appoints his successor. If you have a problem with it, sorry, but there is no choice.

I am honestly surprised why Birader saab, Porus saab, Badrijanab saab, Mubarak Saab and Al Zulfiqar bhai are not responding. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, Insaaf Saab, where are you?. If the above-mentioned agree with Bohra Spring, then so be it, but let your opinion be heard

I had appealed to you on this site and in PM to please continue with your views but you seemed to have dissapeared. I can understand that you are an old man and will have health concerns, but please... you are the one who started this topic, it is only correct that you continue to contribute

i for one agree with what insaaf saab's original post was, after Mr al zulfiquar corrected me on what the post was saying, we need to wake up ourselves before we can jagao this community

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#47

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:57 am

Those who claim we are not a government or political is uninformed read this...we are a remnant of a political civil war!


The end of the Fāṭimid state
Badr and his successors saved the Fāṭimid state from collapse and postponed its end for nearly a century. Responding to the Seljuq challenge from the East, he pursued an active policy in Syria, Arabia, and elsewhere, using both religious and worldly weapons. In Syria, however, the armies of the Fāṭimids suffered repeated defeats; in Arabia their following was reduced to insignificance. Badr’s son and successor al-Afḍal in effect renounced the claims of the Egyptian Fāṭimid dynasty to the universal caliphate.

On the death of al-Mustanṣir in 1094 it was al-Afḍal who chose the new caliph. Al-Mustanṣir had nominated his elder son, Nizār, who had been accepted by the Ismāʿīlī leaders; the younger son, Aḥmad, was a youth without allies, who would be entirely dependent on his sponsor. It was no doubt with this in mind that al-Afḍal married his sister to Aḥmad and, on al-Mustanṣir’s death, proclaimed his brother-in-law as caliph with the regnal name al-Mustaʿlī (reigned 1094–1101); in doing so, al-Afḍal split the sect from top to bottom.

Even in Egypt there was some opposition; in Persia, Iraq, and Central Asia the Ismāʿīlī mission, led by Ḥasan-e Ṣabbāḥ, refused to recognize the new caliph and broke off relations with the Fāṭimid authorities in Cairo. Ḥasan-e Ṣabbāḥ’s new Ismāʿīlī movement, known after its Syrian branch as the Assassins, proclaimed Nizār and his descendants as rightful imāms and condemned the caliphs in Cairo as usurpers. Even those Ismāʿīlīs, chiefly in the Yemen, who had accepted al-Mustaʿlī broke away in 1130 when al-Mustaʿlī’s son al-Āmir (reigned 1101–30) was murdered by the Assassins and was succeeded by his cousin al-Ḥāfiẓ (reigned 1130–49). Claiming that al-Āmir had left an infant son who was now the hidden imām, the Yemenites refused to recognize al-Ḥāfiẓ or his successors in Cairo.

The end of the dynasty came in 1171. The last four caliphs were no more than a local Egyptian dynasty, without power, influence, or hope. In 1171, the last caliph died. Saladin, the nominal vizier, had become the real master of Egypt, and the Fāṭimid caliphate, already dead as a religious and political force, was formally abolished.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#48

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:59 am

I may have mistaken that humsafar's comments were the official PDB position on anti democracy, I take back any such inference. I urge PDB to think through this issue and make an informed position soon. The benefits outweigh the legacy.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#49

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:49 am

anajmi,
The wholesale loot of the community is a new phenomenon as far as the history of Dais is concerned. That is what I was referring to, and given that reality we do not have a precedent of replacing corrupt Dais because the community never experienced this situation. To start replacing them now we need to invent a new tradition - and that can come about in two ways, as I mentioned before, through enlightened leadership or enlightened populace. There is no third way. You cannot impose a new dai, Bohras will not accept it. What will you do then? You, Bohra Spring and OZ go on a picnic with the new Dai? :)
anajmi wrote:You know, it's a pity that the accepted bohra reality, notwithstanding the "reform" movement, is to be forever tied to this Dai. What a shame!!
Quite right, and it is a shame. The (corrupt) Dai is like that pesky bone in reformists throats - our beliefs won't allow us to cough it out, and our principles won't allow us to swallow it. Try to understand our dilemma.
Bohra spring wrote:It is obviously strange that PDB will not go the step to ensure in future a Diai is selected fairly so that he can operate fairly and if he does not there is a method to remove him.
Selected fairly by whom? And how will you make that fairly selected dai be accepted by the general Bohra populace? The legitimacy for the fairly selected dai will come from the support of the people. So get the support of the people, and people will support you only when they are aware, educated and enlightened. And that is exactly my point: if the leadership won't change on its own (and it is very unlikely that it will) then people must force it to. That is why I say your zeal is misguided.

OZ,
My or the reformist position is not "anti-democracy". We are all for democratic values and democratic process and we have been insisting on implementing these ideals in the running of our jamats and our affairs. But if you mean democracy in the sense of electing a Dai, I would welcome that personally, but that is simply not permitted by Bohra beliefs. You and I may not care about these beliefs, but bohras do and they will have none of your fancy ideas about electing a Dai.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:07 am

There is no third way. You cannot impose a new dai, Bohras will not accept it. What will you do then?
Well, what I have done is pretty clear for everyone. I am no longer bowing down to the Dai or paying him extortion money. I am free of the Dai. For the bohras who will not accept it, they are deserving of what they are getting from their Dai. I always assumed that the reform movement was to free the abde idiots, but it looks like the reform movement is to convert the reformists back to abde idiots. This brings to light another aspect of the reform movement. It looks like the reform movement that Humsafar is a part of, consists of those that have been excommunicated without their will. They never wanted to be out of the slavery. They were forced out. They just want to get back in!!

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#51

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:28 am

anajmi wrote:They never wanted to be out of the slavery.
You know that is not true. You should be ashamed of making such a gross misrepresentation of the reform movement and, by doing so, insulting the sacrifices and hardships that reformists have faced and continue to face. Yes we want back in but on your our own terms, in a reformed system - with an enlightened Dai and an enlightened populace.
It's a good thing you opted out. Most Bohras do not see that as a viable option. They value their continuity with their past, their tradition and faith as Bohras.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:18 pm

They value their continuity with their past, their tradition and faith as Bohras.
Their tradition and faith as bohras as undergone tremendous change over the last few decades. I am sure you are aware of it. It is time to change it for the better for once rather than going back to the same crap.
You should be ashamed of making such a gross misrepresentation of the reform movement and, by doing so, insulting the sacrifices and hardships that reformists have faced and continue to face.
And yet, what do you want to do about it? Stay in the same system because "bohras will not accept it"? Time for you to stop this bull. Your sacrifices are of no use. Atleat my sacrifices have paid off!!
Yes we want back in but on your our own terms, in a reformed system - with an enlightened Dai and an enlightened populace.
The current Dai in an enlightened form? The current populace enlightened inspite of "bohras will not accept it" and " continuity with their past, their tradition and faith as Bohras.". How the heck do you plan to enlighten them within these boundaries? Have you ever been to a club where you are allowed to enter on your own terms? What are you smoking?
Last edited by anajmi on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#53

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:28 pm

anajmi wrote: Their tradition and faith as bohras as undergone tremendous change over the last few decades. I am sure you are aware of it. It is time to change it for the better for once rather than going back to the same crap.
No, it hasn't. It's been distorted - and that's what we are trying to change.
anajmi wrote: And yet, what do you want to do about it? Stay in the same system because "bohras will not accept it"? Time for you to stop this bull. Your sacrifices are of no use. Atleat my sacrifices have paid off!!
Good for you.

anajmi
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#54

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:31 pm

Yes we want back in but on your our own terms, in a reformed system - with an enlightened Dai and an enlightened populace.
The current Dai in an enlightened form? The current populace enlightened inspite of "bohras will not accept it" and " continuity with their past, their tradition and faith as Bohras.". How the heck do you plan to enlighten them within these boundaries? Have you ever been to a club where you are allowed to enter on your own terms? What are you smoking?

Humsafar
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#55

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:36 pm

anajmi wrote: What are you smoking?
Ganja. Want some, or would you rather crawl back to the sobriety of sunnah?

anajmi
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#56

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:38 pm

Crawling back is something that you plan to do. I have been freed by the Sunnah. Freed of the need for Ganja too. You should try the Sunnah instead of Ganja.

Humsafar
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#57

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:47 pm

Truth be told, ganja is more fun. :)

anajmi
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#58

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:54 pm

I am sure it is. That is one of the reasons why this reform movement is doomed. I am glad we clarified what your "true" religion really is.

Humsafar
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#59

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:06 pm

You're free to reach your conclusion. And, not that your need any encouragement, please feel free to latch on to this word, this conclusion, and go to town with it each time you respond to me. anajmi has a new bone to chew. That should keep him busy for some time.

anajmi
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#60

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:22 pm

Once in a while, people like you should start taking responsibility for the words that come out of your mouth. I am here just to point them out. Even though others might not be, I am very familiar with both your faces.