Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#61

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:59 pm

My two faces are no secret, old timers know that. They also know when I'm serious and when I speak in jest. Yet, we can always rely on you to quote us out of context and provide general entertainment.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#62

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:06 pm

I don't quote out of context, unless, there was no context to begin with. People with 2 faces, normally do not provide said context. And please, do not pretend to be entertained, you are getting hammered. There is a reason why you steered this conversation into the "waste of time" category.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#63

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:41 pm

Another of your favourite delusion - hammering everyone. I steered conversation because you refuse to understand the context and complexity and the fine line the reform movement is treading. Being an outsider it is easy for to do all this grandstanding, but if you try to be a little sensitive to the needs and aspirations of Bohras who want change and yet don't want to give up their Bohra identity then maybe, maybe you would have a different tone and approach. For once try to see the world from their point of view.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#64

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:54 pm

There can not be real reform with the current diai in place, as it is quite evident here is no way of knowing who the hidden imam is or anyone who looks like an arab can falsely claim to be the imam and declare his financiar to be the dia.

Having a corrupt dia to appoint his successor is obviously wrong way to accept the future diai who will be enlightened. The chances of that are remote and not worth betting the house on it.

Present method of diai and the way he governs is now a deeply flawed process . I cannot see what other enlightened way people of humsafar camp expect the diai to be siritualy appointed when so much evidenc eis there to question the integrity of the current diai establishment, their material goals.

The new diai, leader, Khalifa whatever that highest human authority we want to establish in the future has to be relected, reappointed and replaced in a tranparent and reliable way that people feel safe and secure.

Sure there will be bohras like humsafar who love that old school lifestyle of devine romance, and they can continue following the circus, but we have to move on and establish a solid attractive Bohra alternative system aligned to sophisticated islamic practises that are compatable with 21 st century secularism and attracts intellectuals and practical seeking youth.

We have to start at the top, once we have a credible diai we can overhaul the rest of the governance across the society. S it is not a Big Bang approach but gradual transformation

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#65

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:02 pm

So how will you appoint the new Dai and how will you make sure that people accept him.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#66

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:15 pm

I steered conversation because you refuse to understand the context and complexity and the fine line the reform movement is treading.
Your fine line is way tooooo fine. It begins to dissappear even when it sees someone with a different opinion. It's not like Bohra Spring was officially submitting his candidacy but you started jumping up and down when he presented his opinion. If your movement is that insecure, maybe you should put an end to it. Apologize to the kothar and get in!!

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#67

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:21 pm

Trust in Allah, but tie your camel.
This is attributed to the Prophet himself.
It suggests total faith in God, Who in turn expects you to use your brains and apply your efforts to whatever task is before us.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#68

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:49 pm

anajmi wrote: Your fine line is way tooooo fine. It begins to dissappear even when it sees someone with a different opinion. It's not like Bohra Spring was officially submitting his candidacy but you started jumping up and down when he presented his opinion. If your movement is that insecure, maybe you should put an end to it. Apologize to the kothar and get in!!
Now you are just playing with words and providing general entertainment. Be that as it may, let's see how you and Bohra spring appoint a new Dai and get him accepted.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#69

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:13 pm

Now you are just playing with words and providing general entertainment.
I am sorry, were you still expecting a meaningful conversation?

You seriously think with people like you around a new Dai is going to get accepted? You got a heart attack just with the mention of a new Dai. The bottom line is that the current reform movement is way too insecure and weak and isn't providing a solution. All it is providing is a used band aid. The reformist goal is to go back to the slavery of Syedna with a few perks here and there. Instead of so many useless sacrifices, you should just offer your Sajda. With the two faces you have, it shouldn't bother you any.

By the way, I do not need to appoint a new Dai when I can go directly to the Imam. I have the true Imam in my backyard. He has been able to recite all the exotic words from Oxford and Webster!!

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#70

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:17 pm

Let's for a moment forget about me and the reform movement, let's go with your and Bohra spring's proposal. How do you plan to achieve your goals. And don't be flippant.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#71

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:42 pm

I have said this dozens of times before. A Dai is not a position of power or authority in Islam. A Dai is one who invites people to Islam. You do not need a Dai to rule over you. The current reformist society is a perfect example. You do not have any ties to the Dai. You have your own system for carrying out your religious and societal duties. Instead of presenting the reformist movement as something that wants to reform the Dai and get back into his control, it should be presented as an alternative that frees people of their bondage to the Dai. The reason more people do not join the reform movement is because the goal of the reform movement is to end up back where it started.

What is missing from the reformist society that only the Dai can give? Nothing other than slavery and unIslamic practices.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#72

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:28 pm

There we go again, full circle. Can we keep the conversation within the framework of Bohra beliefs? We are not talking about Islam but a shia ismaili sect which has its historically evolved beliefs and traditions. No matter how deviant you think it is from Islamic ideals, and I would agree with you, but that is not not under discussion here. Borha beliefs, minus the distortions of current regime, is a given. The question now - and reformists are grappling with it - is how to do we bringing about reforms. These are the basic terms of discussion. If you can't accept them then that's fine, there's nothing to talk. But please do not go about changing goal posts - in one instance you say the corrupt leadership should be replaced and when asked how you are going to achieve that you turn around and say there is no leadership in Islam.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#73

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:37 pm

Bro anajmi,

I agree with you as the rot lies with the leadership itself which needs a revamp but Humsafar and the PDB have their own limitations as they do not want to get further alienated from the mainstream bohras as they are already facing unwanted brickbats due to the anti publicity by kothar. They are already projected as anti dawat although their core demands are accountability and transperency and any step towards changing the core of bohra doctrines could invite the wrath of even some orthodox bohras who are silently with the PDB but cant think outside bohra doctrines. It is a very difficult situation for PDB and even though Humsafar and many other PDB members would welcome a change of leadership on a personal level but the same could backfire if it becomes a part of their movement.

We need to awaken bohras which is a real herculean task. Through my personal interactions with many abdes I have found out that this forum is playing a very important role towards changing their mindset although it is a slow process. The lava is boiling and it may erupt anytime, it is more like who will bell the cat first.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#74

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:45 pm

First you need stop jumping around. You asked me my plan forgetting about you and the reform movement. I gave it to you.
but that is not not under discussion here.
The question now - and reformists are grappling with it - is how to do we bringing about reforms.
That is your problem. You don't want to discuss the key issue and then are wondering why you cannot bring reforms. Fix that problem first or you will be running around like headless chicken for a very long time!!
in one instance you say the corrupt leadership should be replaced and when asked how you are going to achieve that you turn around and say there is no leadership in Islam.
I am sorry about that. I thought I was dealing with someone who was smart enough to understand the underlying context. But I was mistaken. You should appoint me as your Dai and I will fix all your problems.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#75

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:56 pm

You're being flippant, anajmi. What plan did you offer? That there is not leadership in Islam? Is that your solution?

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#76

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:08 pm

anajmi wrote:I have said this dozens of times before. A Dai is not a position of power or authority in Islam. A Dai is one who invites people to Islam. You do not need a Dai to rule over you. The current reformist society is a perfect example. You do not have any ties to the Dai. You have your own system for carrying out your religious and societal duties. Instead of presenting the reformist movement as something that wants to reform the Dai and get back into his control, it should be presented as an alternative that frees people of their bondage to the Dai. The reason more people do not join the reform movement is because the goal of the reform movement is to end up back where it started.

What is missing from the reformist society that only the Dai can give? Nothing other than slavery and unIslamic practices.
that last post from anajmi was quite profound and made a lot of sense. and no, this is not a tongue-in-cheek remark or one made in jest.

i know that it goes against the grain of the reformists to admit that they are unbelievers of the dai, but the fact is that all reformist jamaats around the world are functioning quite smoothly without the need to have a dai (except doctrinally/ideologically) whose control or farmaans are required for them to be identified as dawoodi bohras. in fact they live in peace, managing their own jamaat affairs very well and at very little cost with full transparency for all concerned. they follow all the traditions, practices and rituals of bohras, celebrate each urus and observe ramzan and moharram even more solemnly and scrupulously than the abde bohras, with none of the nonsense which has crept in over the last 2 syednas.

they live stress-free and dignified lives, without the daily humiliation, extortion and unreasonable demands which abdes are subjected to. yes, udaipur is an exception as the reformists there are under a constant onslaught from the kothar and its goons who are bent on eliminating them and expropriating the jamaat properties.

what brothers bohra spring and ozzy should perhaps envision is a bohra society similar to the progressive jamaats in kenya, canada, uk and in other places. attempting to overthrow a dai and install a new democratically elected candidate would require:
1. universal acceptance of that dai from the community at large
2. who will decide who that leader would be and his qualifications? ordinary bohras or ustaads/aalims, when all real scholars and aalims have been eliminated?
3. since a dai can only be appointed by nass, who will do nass on this new dai?
4. how will you satisfy the doctrinal requirement of his linkage with the hidden imam? the question is not if such an imam exists and to start another debate, but you cannot throw out that link and still call yrself bohras! the issue is also not whether even the present dai or his successor are divinely appointed, but will the majority of bohras accept your new dai and how will it be proved that he has divine sanction? can any bohra say that yeah, the hidden imam has sanctioned it via my ilham? that does not make any sense!
5. what if the new dai also starts misbehaving and misusing his authority, will the community replace him again? that will bring about a situation similar to the dirty politics of pakistan or india! rival factions will start maligning the dai, obstructing his work, promoting their own thugs and engage in skullduggery, corruption, nepotism and loot.
6. the only feasible and practical option therefore, if you wish to retain your identity as a bohra while refusing to slavishly accept the unislamic and unethical diktats of the dai, is to either live independently out of the jamaat or join the reformists so that you have a cultural and homogenous group in which you feel comfortable.

instead of going through so much botheration and attempting to bring about such radical doctrinal and social changes on a scale which is unimaginable, just jump this rotten ship and find your own way.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#77

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:19 pm

Thank you Al Zulfiqar for reiterating, and that too in great detail, what I've been saying all along. It should be clear now that the idea of appointing/selecting a new Dai was quite kooky right off the bat.
Yes, it is true that reformists jamats have been functioning very well without the Dai and his rapacious administration, who can know this better than me. But please in keep in mind that the goal of the movement is not to create independent islands of self-sufficient jamats that are disparate and disconnected - but to bring the whole community under its umbrella. The idea is to bring these reforms to the whole Bohra community, hence the reform movement. Now people like anajmi perceive this as if we are yearning to get back into bed with Dai's, but that is his mischievous and dishonest misinterpretation. Reformists have achieved and established the goals they had envisioned, so far so good. That is half the battle one. The other half remains. We cannot sit back and bask in our half-won freedom when we know that rest of our brethren are still suffering and our religion and our beliefs are being dragged through the mud. So yes, reformist jamats are good but that is not enough. If it were enough there would be no need for the reform movement, no need for this website, no need for all of you to come here and speak your mind. We all want the corrupt dawat to change. So let's work towards that - in solidarity. Of course we can have our differences but let's not lose the focus.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#78

Unread post by Nietzsche » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:03 pm

I have an idea for the reformist bohras who are serious about their movement. Why not compile a list of the grievances, and if there is an eloquent writer among you, come up with some kind of document. Send this document to news outlets, politicians, anyone anywhere. Use Facebook. You can't succeed by keeping these problems limited to dawoodi bohras. If you can raise awareness in even one affluent area, it will pay amends to your movement. And the best thing is that there isn't anything your opponents could do about. No ex communication where there is freedom of speech. Send a plea out to major news services, politicians, philanthropists, as many as you can and maybe someone will respond. List all the perceived grievances.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#79

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:39 am

AZ I think your comment is very useful

If establishing the PDB was stage 1 let us call it objection,causing discomfort and desire for change , this stage is coming to an end and a few more things remain, in a few years the agitation will be ripe, the environment is explosive and needs a few sparks to ignite into an explosion

we should plan Stage 2 of the revolution call it traction and establishment of new foundation, thereafter we can have stage 3 in 20 years time called embed change and stage 4 much later and call it growth and projection.

And let me push the issue a bit, I also agree in 2013 what I propose is not possible but in 20-30 years may be possible. We have to aspire to bring continuos reform. We can do what we can achieve but keep an eye on the horizon and accept we do not have a perfect solution, it is far better than what currently kothar offers.

In spirit of democracy let others contribute how they would address the very good and logical points you have raised ?

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#80

Unread post by zinger » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:50 am

Humsafar saab request you to come back to the topic at hand with the people who are involved and affected by what is happening

AZ bhai, thank you for putting the brakes on this, it was getting a little out of hand.

humsafar saab, believe me when i say this, we sympathise and empathise even, with your predicament, in many ways, you have held up a mirror to us when you say that you want to remain a part of the community but only want transparency and accountability. we want the same thing, although we will not admit it openly

about 3 years ago, one of us came across this site and he slowly brought others like us together. typically, we viewed you and all reformists as daawat na dushman and b******s. Sorry for the gaali, but that is just to let you know what we used to think of you... then!

Today, we think differently. we realise that you are just like us, except that you have decided that "boss, abhi bahut ho gaya, ab, enough is enough". we, either a) dont have the courage to take a step like you or b) are still to blind in our love and devotion to our Dai to see what is wrong

whatever is the case, we are too strongly linked to our culture and upbringing to want to rock the boat in anyway. Am heartened to see that you hold this culture as dearly to your heart as we do, although our roads are different.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#81

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:15 am

Nietzsche wrote:I have an idea for the reformist bohras who are serious about their movement. Why not compile a list of the grievances, and if there is an eloquent writer among you, come up with some kind of document. Send this document to news outlets, politicians, anyone anywhere. Use Facebook. You can't succeed by keeping these problems limited to dawoodi bohras. If you can raise awareness in even one affluent area, it will pay amends to your movement. And the best thing is that there isn't anything your opponents could do about. No ex communication where there is freedom of speech. Send a plea out to major news services, politicians, philanthropists, as many as you can and maybe someone will respond. List all the perceived grievances.
This exactly what the reform movement is doing for the last 40 years. All the grievances are well documents, two inquiry commissions have produced reports about this, several letters and memoranda have been sent to Sayedna (with no response), the reform issues have been widely publicised, articles about the corruption and high-handedness of Bohra clergy keep appearing in the Indian media, we hold conferences every three years in which we invite intellectuals and activists from broad sections of society. The Bohra problem is in public consciousness, politicians know about it, Muslim mullahs and scholars know about it.
The clergy has responded to bad publicity in two major ways: One, it has successfully demonised reformists among abdes, and imposed draconian restrictions on the community making it more conservative, inward-looking, closed-minded, aloof and smugly self-satisfied and slavish. Two, with it's ill-gotten wealth it has bought over the support of unscrupulous Muslim mullahs (hence nobody denounces Sayedna for anti-islamic activities) and has bribed and feted politicians (a la Thackeray, Modi and many others) to shore up their political clout.
Reformists have the public opinion on their side. But, as a philosopher, you should know how public opinion is trodden underfoot by power and money.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#82

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:34 am

zinger,
It's great to know that you and your friends have begun to appreciate the reformist cause. We from the "outside" are doing all we can, but the progress of this cause depends on people like you. I can understand you dilemma, many of my friends and relatives are also in a similar situation. And you do not have to worry too much about losing your identity or culture, look at us reformist we haven't even after all these years. The thinking has changed but without action it is of no use. Your action doesn't have to be an all-out revolt. You can start small: spread the word about reform issues - transparency etc., about this website, talk about these issues with like-minded people, challenge local amil when he's unreasonable or disrespectful. There are so many ways young, educated and awakened Bohras can act, and every act of rebellion, no matter how insignificant, counts and will eventually add up to something big. The journey must start with the first step. Take that step. See you around.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#83

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:01 pm

Presence of a Dai will make you another cult. Google can be our next Dai. It gives all the information one needs without the sajda and envelope. It has only one sister u tube. :D

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#84

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:32 pm

Humsafar wrote: We cannot sit back and bask in our half-won freedom when we know that rest of our brethren are still suffering and our religion and our beliefs are being dragged through the mud. So yes, reformist jamats are good but that is not enough. If it were enough there would be no need for the reform movement, no need for this website, no need for all of you to come here and speak your mind. We all want the corrupt dawat to change. So let's work towards that - in solidarity. Of course we can have our differences but let's not lose the focus.
one important point which is to be noted from the above quoted segment of humsafar's post is that love and affection for our fellow bohras is not to be forgotten. it is often easy when criticising the corrupt clergy to lump together their enslaved followers - the simple and ordinary bohras - as rascals and idiots and then taking the criticism further to the point of hatred for everything that a bohra stands for and values, even to the extent of questioning and ridiculing their doctrinal beliefs.

what is also a fact is that its the neo-converts from bohra-ism to shia ithnasheri, sunni, salafi, wahabi or whatever who are the most stridently vocal in their criticism, its as if they have a need to purge themselves of all that is 'unclean' or 'unislamic' in their view and seek self-justification for their conversion. often times its also motivated by personal vendetta as they could have been thrown out or humiliated and abused at a most crucial juncture in their lives. i would sympathise with them if they roundly ridiculed the clergy, but their tendency to mercilessly shove all bohras and everything they stand for into the swamp is not winning them any friends or people amenable to their extreme views.

i agree that we do sometimes come across some hardcore foul-mouthed abde fanatics on this board and in person who really provoke us and press all our wrong buttons, inciting us to respond in kind, but as a general observation, most bohras are definitely peaceful, non-violent, disciplined, business-like, loving and hospitable people. i personally know many many bohras who have unshakeable faith in syedna and his mojizas etc. i may not agree with them on that issue, but as individuals they are outstandingly warm, hospitable and even charitable people. i do count many among them as friends. they respect me for what i am and i vice versa, i let them be. the very fact that they see fit to continue being friendly with me, i see it as a tacit agreement, tolerance and acceptance from their side for my stance. such are the people we should influence, very gently, in changing their views. if i see any opposition, i do not rock their boat and ram my opinions down their throat. after all no one wants to be proved a fool!

i felt very deeply on reading humsafar's genuine concern for the rest of the suffering bohra 'brethren', i hope all reformists feel the same way, because i have met a few who express nothing but scorn and contempt for those who have no choice and remain within the larger community. let us reserve our ire and anger for the corrupt and ruthless clergy, not their followers, who are being systematically misled, misinformed and abused.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#85

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:36 pm

Hallo Br Bohra spring

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#86

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:27 pm

Some quotes relevant to the topic :-

"If we are not prepared to think for ourselves, and to make the effort to learn how to do this well, we will always be in danger of becoming slaves to the ideas and values of others due to our own ignorance." - William Hughes

History can come in handy. If you were born yesterday, with no knowledge of the past, you might easily accept whatever the government tells you. But knowing a bit of history--while it would not absolutely prove the government was lying in a given instance--might make you skeptical, lead you to ask questions, make it more likely that you would find out the truth." - Howard Zinn

"One of the most important things one can do in life is to brutally question every single thing you are taught." - Bryant McGill

"Doubt everything. Find your own light.' - Last words of Gotama Buddha, in Theravada tradition


zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#88

Unread post by zinger » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:13 am

Humsafar wrote:zinger,
It's great to know that you and your friends have begun to appreciate the reformist cause. We from the "outside" are doing all we can, but the progress of this cause depends on people like you. I can understand you dilemma, many of my friends and relatives are also in a similar situation. And you do not have to worry too much about losing your identity or culture, look at us reformist we haven't even after all these years. The thinking has changed but without action it is of no use. Your action doesn't have to be an all-out revolt. You can start small: spread the word about reform issues - transparency etc., about this website, talk about these issues with like-minded people, challenge local amil when he's unreasonable or disrespectful. There are so many ways young, educated and awakened Bohras can act, and every act of rebellion, no matter how insignificant, counts and will eventually add up to something big. The journey must start with the first step. Take that step. See you around.

Humsafar saab, hum jaante hain ke hum muddai kehlane ke barabar hain, but we cannot help it.

Aapne theek kahan hain. we too are making small steps within our markaz, our family, our friends... we do not direct them to this site, but haan, hum yeh kehte hain that instead of doing ziafat, why not give that money to some poor bohra families in kurla, mumbra, bhendi bazaar etc. sometimes, hamari baat suni jaati hain, sometimes we get wierd looks, but most times, we get ignored... magar koi baat nahin, dilli abhi door hain.

Mind you humsafar saab, we still love our dai, we cannot change years of behaviour overnight, but yes, we cannot close our eyes anymore.
its like you realise one day that your father is a criminal... you dont stop loving him,

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#89

Unread post by zinger » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:20 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
Humsafar wrote: We cannot sit back and bask in our half-won freedom when we know that rest of our brethren are still suffering and our religion and our beliefs are being dragged through the mud. So yes, reformist jamats are good but that is not enough. If it were enough there would be no need for the reform movement, no need for this website, no need for all of you to come here and speak your mind. We all want the corrupt dawat to change. So let's work towards that - in solidarity. Of course we can have our differences but let's not lose the focus.
one important point which is to be noted from the above quoted segment of humsafar's post is that love and affection for our fellow bohras is not to be forgotten. it is often easy when criticising the corrupt clergy to lump together their enslaved followers - the simple and ordinary bohras - as rascals and idiots and then taking the criticism further to the point of hatred for everything that a bohra stands for and values, even to the extent of questioning and ridiculing their doctrinal beliefs.

what is also a fact is that its the neo-converts from bohra-ism to shia ithnasheri, sunni, salafi, wahabi or whatever who are the most stridently vocal in their criticism, its as if they have a need to purge themselves of all that is 'unclean' or 'unislamic' in their view and seek self-justification for their conversion. often times its also motivated by personal vendetta as they could have been thrown out or humiliated and abused at a most crucial juncture in their lives. i would sympathise with them if they roundly ridiculed the clergy, but their tendency to mercilessly shove all bohras and everything they stand for into the swamp is not winning them any friends or people amenable to their extreme views.

i agree that we do sometimes come across some hardcore foul-mouthed abde fanatics on this board and in person who really provoke us and press all our wrong buttons, inciting us to respond in kind, but as a general observation, most bohras are definitely peaceful, non-violent, disciplined, business-like, loving and hospitable people. i personally know many many bohras who have unshakeable faith in syedna and his mojizas etc. i may not agree with them on that issue, but as individuals they are outstandingly warm, hospitable and even charitable people. i do count many among them as friends. they respect me for what i am and i vice versa, i let them be. the very fact that they see fit to continue being friendly with me, i see it as a tacit agreement, tolerance and acceptance from their side for my stance. such are the people we should influence, very gently, in changing their views. if i see any opposition, i do not rock their boat and ram my opinions down their throat. after all no one wants to be proved a fool!

i felt very deeply on reading humsafar's genuine concern for the rest of the suffering bohra 'brethren', i hope all reformists feel the same way, because i have met a few who express nothing but scorn and contempt for those who have no choice and remain within the larger community. let us reserve our ire and anger for the corrupt and ruthless clergy, not their followers, who are being systematically misled, misinformed and abused.

az saab, sorry sir but your words sound empty.

i agree that we have some very bad brothers on this site who only know gaalis, but sorry sir, aap bhi kucch kum nahin hain. you dont leave any chance to insult us, ridicule us, degrade us, abuse us, make references to our clothes and body parts... and then you say that salafis and wahabis are bad.. janaab, aap bhi zara dekhiye aap khud kya kya likhte hain hamare baare main.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#90

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:01 pm

"Learn from the mistakes of others... you can't live long enough to make them all yourselves!!"
-- Chanakya.

"A man is great by deeds, not by birth."
-- Chanakya.