Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#91

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:04 pm

Muslim first who cannot submit on his own has sent a PM and suggested this which is worth noting
There is a Jamat of Sunni Bohras in A'hbad who came from Yemen
They have elected panchayat and leader to run Jamat affairs. They are close knit Jamat and perform all social function in their Jamat khana. They attend Sunni Masjids for prayers
this raises a good point if you look at it another way , is it too radical to expect that Bohras unite and allow diversity where Sunni, Shia, Burhani, Alawi bohras, Progressives can live and socialise openly and only for spiritual needs attends their own specific ideological groups.

This is alternative to seeking an alternative dominant ideology as we will never all agree which one is the best.

I envisage a case where in a same family the mother can be Burhani, Father Shia, Children Progressive, another Sunni. We already have that at subconscious level, it is that we tolerate expressing it and association wis.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#92

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:38 pm

zinger wrote:
janaab, aap bhi zara dekhiye aap khud kya kya likhte hain hamare baare main.
hum to achhi tareh dekhkar hi likhte hain, aur jo bhi likhte hain woh haqiqat ke alawa aur kuch nahin hai. agar usme kuch sach nahi hai to meherbani karke bataiye.

agar sachhi baat se aapko mirchi lagti hain to uska ilaaj hamare paas nahi hain, lekin aapke ke khud ke haaton mein hai. yeh sab ghulami wali harkate karna chhod dijiye, fauran sukoon mil jaayega.

when internet savvy and educated abdes like you willingly accept slavery and the uniform and behaviour associated with it, the forced beard, sajdas and extortion, then be prepared for brickbats, not bouquets!


Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#93

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:56 am

Since 9/11, "Islamic reform" has become an all-purpose phrase: equally a western impulse to protect itself from Muslim violence and a humanist notion aimed at assisting voiceless Muslims. It has also been espoused by Wolfowitz and Blair in service of their neo-colonial ambitions. Yet, the politics of Islamic reform are part of a much larger debate about power: one that goes to the heart of Islam, and connects back to western foreign policy.

Who has the power to define what the Qur'an says, and what sources besides the Qur'an are to be relied upon in interpreting the book? Theologically, this is the most contentious issue in Islam. I call it "The Question".

When Muhammad was alive, the answer to The Question was easy. With his death confusion ensued. To bolster their claims for primacy, competing factions developed cohesive narratives linking themselves to different parts of Muhammad's practice. Thus, the battle over how to define Muhammad's practice became a proxy to the one over the Qur'an.

After about 300 years - roughly the same time it had taken from the death of Christ to the Council of Nicea - clear majority and minority trends as to how to answer The Question had emerged. This clarity was due to vigorous intellectual debate as well as a good deal of intellectual repression, imprisonment, war, and political favouritism.

The dominant approach or "Sharia" (Sharia means "way" or "beaten path") to emerge was Sunni. It affirmed one particular legal method called usul. It separated the religious scholars from the political leadership so as not to upset the favorable status quo. It adhered to 'Ashari theology which said that without revelation from God, human reason is incapable of distinguishing good from bad. It approved of Sufism. Finally, it codified Muhammad's practice in books of hadith, stating that other ways of apprehending the practice were illegitimate.

Supporters credit the dominance of this "way" to its intellectual flexibility, arguing that it provides a competent way of reconciling Islam with change. Cynics say that it won out due to its historical (and current) willingness to coddle corrupt political leaders. This dominant way is called "traditionalism" and is alive and well today. It is the closest thing Sunni Islam has to an orthodoxy.

Islamic reform occurs when a Muslim dissents from this traditional orthodoxy, and provides an alternative which he or she believes more accurately captures the spirit of Islam. Some dissenters argue that their view was part of the orthodoxy all along - just overlooked - while others agitate for the orthodoxy to open up and assimilate views from the outside.

There are various reasons for Muslim critiques of traditionalism. Some critics are dissatisfied with traditionalism for being liberal, citing its connection to Sufism and its receptivity to local customs. Others accuse it of conservatism: primarily its views towards women, minorities, and freedom of conscience. Others agitate against its political quietism, arguing that it does not speak out against terrorists or tyrants enough. Many critics have a problem with traditional conceptions of religious hierarchy, believing that Islam should be democratic and not install de facto priests in the guise of scholars. Others complain about traditionalist monopoly on methodology, arguing that there are other methods of deriving a "way" or "Sharia" than the usul method invented in the 9th century. Finally, some simply believe that traditionalism is anachronistic, should be deconstructed and replaced by radically individualistic ijtihad.

Most of these critiques are in conflict, not just against traditionalism, but against one another as well. However, in terms of history, all critiques against traditionalism stems from Ibn Taymiya, a largely self-taught scholar in the 13th century, who challenged the traditionalists of his time. His views are worth examining.

For starters, Ibn Taymiya rejected the traditionalist view (still extant) on the "triple divorce" - which allowed a Muslim man to divorce a woman in one sitting by thrice-repeating "I divorce you." He further rejected the traditionalist opinion which maintained (and still does) that the testimony of two women was equal to that of one man, instead arguing that the Quran mandated equality in testimony. Finally, really stepping on traditionalist power, he concluded that ignoring the "consensus" of jurists was neither an act of disbelief nor a grave sin, as so many traditionalists insisted.

One would imagine that today Ibn Taymiya be lauded for his freethinking and celebrated as a feminist. This has to do with the fact that his intellectual independence also led him to contradict traditionalists on the issue of rebellion against Muslim leaders, which opened the door to jihadist ideas (when a Muslim believes that he does not need the state to authorize taking life).

In the 13th century Mongols ravaged the Muslim world. Part of their success had to do with the fact that upon entering Muslim lands they would pretend to convert to Islam and appoint themselves rulers of the Muslim population. This was a great tactic on their part. While traditionalist scholars had always supported a belligerent foreign policy towards the non-Muslim world (known as "dar ul-harb" - the abode of war), when it came to relationships with Muslim rulers in the "dar ul-Islam - the abode of Islam, they were extreme quietists, preferring to live under tyranny than engage in rebellion. Their position was based on a "consensus" - still in effect even today - which forbids rebelling against the temporal Muslim leaders for any reason.

Ibn Taymiya rejected this consensus. He said that the Mongol leaders, even if they professed to be Muslims, were hypocrites because they were oppressive and unjust, and arms could be taken up against them. He helped to campaign against such leaders and led attacks on them..

This article is part of a series by Ali Eteraz on Islamic reform:

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#94

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:32 pm

bhai insaf's heading for this thread is a misnomer.

it implies:

1. that it's only the passengers who care about the ship and their own lives and that the captain and his team have either given up, or abandoned the sinking ship or are prepared to do nothing about it and go down with the ship
2. that the passengers are free, i.e. not bound with ropes and chains, and have access to some means to plug the leak, stop the ship from taking on more water and sinking and then bailing out the water
3. that the ship is somewhere far out in the ocean, thousands of miles away from any shoreline and cannot count on any help
4. that the ship is important and worth saving only from the p.o.v. of the passengers and the owners of the ship do not think its worth salvaging

now let us examine all the above points.

1. since the passengers provide the hefty incomes of the captain and his bloated team of cut-throat pirates, why would the captain allow the ship to sink, taking down with it his sole source of unlimited income?
2. the assumption that the passengers are physically and mentally free to take corrective action is erroneous, as they have repeatedly demonstrated that they are abdes (slaves) in chains and are very glad and willing to give up their worthless lives and khaals to make jootis for their captain
3. the 3rd point makes it clear that the daawat ship of bohras has drifted too far away from the 'shores' of islam and even its own deen, and thus beyond salvation or efforts to prevent it from sinking
4. if the owners couldn't care less if the ship sank and the passengers drowned en masse', then its most likely that the captain and his team (owners) have fled and have made plans to milk and loot some other group

in light of the above analysis, the conclusion that any sane person would derive is that a) this rotten ship and its passengers are not worth saving, as the majority of the passengers are glad and willing to sacrifice their lives and go down to their watery grave, b) that even from the angle of humanitarian and ethical grounds, its not worth it, as the ship is way too far from any 'coastline' of islamic principles or even human decency and its passengers have become willing victims of greed, avarice and idol-worship.

anajmi
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#95

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:23 pm

When you quickly glance through the topic list, you will read this heading as "Only on board Passengers can sink this ship". :wink:

Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#96

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:32 pm

anajmi wrote:When you quickly glance through the topic list, you will read this heading as "Only on board Passengers can sink this ship". :wink:
Sometimes the same feeling crosses my mind too....sometimes I do get really tempted to say pack-up, and go, if I placed the same effort I put blogging here and trying to talk sense into abdes, into perfecting my religion while in another sect would I be better off .

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#97

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:40 pm

Bohra spring wrote: Sometimes the same feeling crosses my mind too....sometimes I do get really tempted to say pack-up, and go, if I placed the same effort I put blogging here and trying to talk sense into abdes, into perfecting my religion while in another sect would I be better off .
Some are born to lead many are born to be led...you decide what you want to be .

Many look at their own interest , some look at what they can do for humanity, will they live the world a better place than what they inherited ..many will exploit it, consume it, pollute it.

If you have children what type of individuals do you want them to be brought up as, are they the led type , do you want to leave them in the current environment..can you make a difference ..if you answer this you will find the answer to take you to the next step...

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#98

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:30 pm

I am getting sea sick. I want to get off the ship and live close to Islamic beach. Bathe in sunshine and quench my thirst with shia style coconut juice. I dont need dhari and saya. simple chaddi and bath towel would suffice.

Conscíous
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#99

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:18 pm

Haha...^^ :mrgreen:

bohraji
Posts: 245
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#100

Unread post by bohraji » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:18 am

[
Bohra spring wrote:Muslim first who cannot submit on his own has sent a PM and suggested this which is worth noting


There is a Jamat of Sunni Bohras in A'hbad who came from Yemen
They have elected panchayat and leader to run Jamat affairs. They are close knit Jamat and perform all social function in their Jamat khana. They attend Sunni Masjids for prayers


this raises a good point if you look at it another way , is it too radical to expect that Bohras unite and allow diversity where Sunni, Shia, Burhani, Alawi bohras, Progressives can live and socialise openly and only for spiritual needs attends their own specific ideological groups.

This is alternative to seeking an alternative dominant ideology as we will never all agree which one is the best.

I envisage a case where in a same family the mother can be Burhani, Father Shia, Children Progressive, another Sunni. We already have that at subconscious level, it is that we tolerate expressing it and association wis.


Salaam Alaikum,
The Sunni Bohras are not from Yemen or Mecca. They are an ofshoot of mainsream Bohras by a person called Jaafar. It is known in the Dawat history as "Jaafar Ni Fitnat ". The history is here on the forum . They also trace the common history of converts from the miracle of Kaka Akela and Kaki Akeli. I had read it on one of their websites. They were quite open to Dargah visits untill recently.However They have now become feirce wahhabis and just to distance themselves from the Dawoodi Bohras, they now claim to be from Mecca or Yemen. It is a very inward looking community just like the dawoodis and look upon other Sunni Muslims in disgust. They marry only amongst themselves and have similar culture like thaals and ,Dal Chawal Palida. They have done well and progressed well in business and like the Dawoodis ,they have made peace with Modi.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#101

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:42 am

Bohraji thanks...I am now better informed.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#102

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:52 pm

below is an email i received from a friend re: this topic. i am copy pasting it here verbatim. i repeat, the words are not mine.

Hi,

I realise I am mixing up several issues here but here are my views about the PDB since I joined the Forum.

The captioned thread is indeed a misnomer. I do not think that the ship is sinking at all. Nobody in the DB movement can be relied upon to declare mutiny and overthrow the current leadership. In fact it is prospering better than ever before. Abdes are so comfortable in going with the flow, why would they risk rocking the boat? I know I once wrote that empires have fallen and the DB empire is doomed to fall one day. But now I am not sure. Overthrowing a thousand strong monarchy? Perhaps the Russians can help here as they successfully overthrew and massacred the powerful czar and his family. Just kidding.

I am surprised that the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra Reform Movement recognises the existence of a Dai based on a fairy tale or myth (whatever one wants to call it) of a hidden imam. Who and what are the 12th and 21st imams of Bohras and ithna Asheris still hiding from in this day and age? Why I am surprised is because the PDB comprises some of the most highly educated and learned members of our society; that even they believe in the myth of a hidden imam.

The Forum movement wants the DB honchos to make their balance sheets transparent and to change their constitution - for want of a suitable word - to comply with the PDB's requirements. This is a piped dream.

Some valid arguments about the future of the PDB have also been aired under the heading "Democracy, Bohra Future and Islamic Guidelines" which co-relates with the sinking ship debate.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

this was my reply:

Hi ...

I agree with your thoughts 100%. In fact this is a dilemma that the PDB movement finds itself in. But the problem is, the moment you talk of discarding the concept of a hidden Imam as unnecessary or of selecting a more suitable and competent dai, then you cannot call yrself a dawoodi bohra anymore. in that case the PDB’s may well start their own new sect and detach themselves completely from the need for reform. Why bother reforming something which is beyond reform? In fact with every passing day, the abde bohras are being taken further and further away from their original deen. Our links with Islam are now tenuous at best, bohras only pay lip service to it and to shiaism anyways, and that too when it’s convenient, sacrificing all previously sacrosanct principles at the altar of expediency.

Your reaction is but natural, but no reformist wants to mention it, atleast officially, it’s as if there is an elephant room in the room and everyone pretends its invisible. That is why, privately, many people like me have given up long ago and decided to sever all links with the abde jamaat and live an independent life. My religion, my spirituality, my practice and traditions, my culture as a bohra is mine to decide and implement or not to.

I have some bohra friends who have become so disillusioned, that they have given up also on all cultural practices of bohras and privately no longer celebrate pehli raat no thaal, or observe urus’s of our various pirs, they do not believe in rajab ni kheer puri etc. Many of them, for all practical purposes call themselves muslims, but when pressed as to which denomination, they call themselves just that, “muslims”.

As I have mentioned in one of my posts on this subject, many bitter bohras just drift away, like a boat without moorings, into the mainstream and just go with the flow. Perhaps. I am one of them too, but in my case, I have also realised that all religions, institutionalised religions to be precise, are no longer necessary and they have all got reduced to a nonsensical and tyrannical set of rituals and protocols which somehow provide a framework that seems to bring peace and succour to the masses. It’s as if we ourselves create such elaborate traditions with false values and then hope to derive spiritual benefit from it! Funny! Religion today is a business which provides employment to millions, for some legitimately, for most fraudulently. In an ideal world, all religions should be abolished and all places of worship destroyed. (this was the shocking statement (at the time) of my economics professor at university) Traditional Religion with its emphasis on rituals, rigid practices and obedience to self-purported God men has outlived its usefulness and has no place in a modern society. It is now doing more harm than good, dividing more than it unites. It causes more wars than politics, in fact politics - temporal power - and religion seem to have joined forces, constituting the most deadly threat to the future of humanity. Religion will and ideally should, retreat into the realm of a personal God and spirituality, which for many is their only guide to distinguishing between right and wrong, between black and white.

H.G. Wells’ treatises on a One World and a New World Order were so shocking and revolutionary in the early days of the 20th century, wherein he predicted a World Brain (which today is the internet) and the gradually withering role of religions and a World State, were a harbinger of things to come if mankind does not see fit to unite under one banner. Check out the following links.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/hg_wells_th ... order.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Conspiracy

We could go on about this until the cows come home and we still wouldn’t have reached a conclusion.


Conscíous
Posts: 1491
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#103

Unread post by Conscíous » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:13 pm

The Forum movement wants the DB honchos to make their balance sheets transparent and to change their constitution - for want of a suitable word - to comply with the PDB's requirements. This is a piped dream
.
Now I'm just speculating.. just maybe, this reform movement is just a pretext for making it difficult for the mafia at saifee mahal and at the same time, spread awareness...

Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#104

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:31 pm

AZ wrote
But the problem is, the moment you talk of discarding the concept of a hidden Imam as unnecessary or of selecting a more suitable and competent dai, then you cannot call yrself a dawoodi bohra anymore.
Let us call ourselves Bohra, Bohra is tribal and cultural...this cannot be determined by faith or ideology.

The issue is the Burhani Bohras operate a form of apartheid that if people who are not pro STS, pro SMB are not called Dawoodi. This is wrong and has to be fought back legally and formally. PDB also need open up their faith to allow all forms Bohras to participate regardless they are Alawi, Sunni, Shia Dawoodi, Burhani, or Qutbi.

humanbeing
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#105

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:53 pm

Dear AZ / Bohra scholars

Why is concept of hidden imam central to bohra doctrine ?

As we noticed, everything can be placed on hidden imam’s shoulders and there is no accountability or transparency.

When I insisted in my jamat to present accounts in more detailed manner like an audit report. They frowned at my uncomfortable questions and skirted the validity of my questions with a typical statement that “Dai is only accountable to hidden imam”

The essence of PDB mission to bring accountability, transparency in dealing of bohra clergy at central or local levels. If a doctrine mandates or rules that Dai is only accountable( financial or spiritual) to Hidden Imam.. Then how does PDB reform the Clergy / priestly class ?

Humsafar
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#106

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:25 pm

humanbeing wrote: Why is concept of hidden imam central to bohra doctrine ?
Because shia/ismaili faith is hinged on the concept of Imam, the Leader who is needed in every epoch to guide the community. As to why the Imam is hidden, I bet even the Dai cannot tell. Or perhaps it is in his interest that he remains hidden. On the other hand, if and when the Imam comes out of hiding, the Dai will have no place to hide.
As far as reformists are concerned, the issue of the Imam is a red-herring. Let's not get distracted by it.
Yes Dai is accountable to the Imam, but only in religious matters, not financial. If the Dai and his extended family are extorting money from the community they are bloody well accountable to it. These two-bit amils and the 'royal family' can get away with loot because Bohras are ignorant and can be hoodwinked easily. Next time when amil tells you that "Dai is only accountable to hidden imam”, just tell him that the hidden Imam is asking for the accounts.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#107

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:27 pm

An empire or a civilisation is never destroyed by outside forces, until it is destroyed within.
-- the eminent historian Gibbon.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#108

Unread post by Bohra spring » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:52 pm

Humsafar wrote:
humanbeing wrote: Why is concept of hidden imam central to bohra doctrine ?
Because shia/ismaili faith is hinged on the concept of Imam, the Leader who is needed in every epoch to guide the community. As to why the Imam is hidden, On the other hand, if and when the Imam comes out of hiding, the Dai will have no place to hide.
As far as reformists are concerned, the issue of the Imam is a red-herring. Let's not get distracted by it.
.
This is an ideology with no future...it is proven and many contributors on this site consciously acknowledge this is flawed concept, some may take a bit longer to take the turn. As far as OLDER reformists are concerned Imam is an important philosophical historical issue and will be harder to convert.

As the youth and new refromists , who are better informed within the age of information and live in more secular intellectual societies, will be able to make rational conclusion if this is relevant and how the future leadership is determined , some of us will continue emphasizing go back to Islamic first priciples and if there is contradiction, use Islamic principles as superior and discard history and cultural hangovers, fortunately democracy and Islam are complementary.

Yes the present day PDB has many reformist hanging on to traditional ( not Islamic) principles but this may change with passage of time...what is important to observe in the coming years which group changes quicker and heeds popular public needs...
PDB, Qutbi , Muffy or a new movement that will spring.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#109

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:23 pm

Bohra spring,
Old or new reformists, "imam" is not the issue and has never been, so please stop flogging this horse. Yes. let's have all the democracy we can get, but leave it out the door when you enter Dai's chamber. It's a no, no for now. Reformists are married to this doctrine as long as it endures - and there is nothing progressive or regressive about it - it is just a matter of what you choose to believe. When the doctrine changes to democratic elections of the Dai, reformists will be behind it all the way. Until then pls spare this horse.

anajmi
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#110

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:20 pm

Yes Dai is accountable to the Imam, but only in religious matters, not financial.
And who told you that one way or the other?
just tell him that the hidden Imam is asking for the accounts.
And also tell him that the progressives asked you to say that.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#111

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:42 pm

anajmi wrote: And who told you that one way or the other?
The Imam.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#112

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:01 pm

Humsafar wrote:
anajmi wrote: And who told you that one way or the other?
The Imam.
:mrgreen:

seeker110
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Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#113

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:29 pm

Imam only takes calls from Dai. Rest of us are on donot call list.

anajmi
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#114

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:45 pm

The fact that the Imam is talking to Humsafar means that we have our new Dai.

Congrats Bohra Spring. Out of the frying pan into the fire (pun intended)!!

Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#115

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:45 am

Humsafar...how many times should I remind you stop thinking you represent the reformists...speak for yourself. You are one in many. You can waffle to irrelevance with your narrow minded ness . You seem to only worry about finances..the movement is bigger than wajebat...you would not get it.

If you are looking for one who has been appointed by an imam then choose one from SMB , Alawi, Suleimani..because no one else is claiming to be appointed by the Imam...not even Qutbudin.

Anajmi , H is no not my dial, I did not elect him neither did 999,999 bohras :lol:

zinger
Posts: 1978
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Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#116

Unread post by zinger » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:48 am

Humsafar wrote:
anajmi wrote: And who told you that one way or the other?
The Imam.
:lol:

zinger
Posts: 1978
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#117

Unread post by zinger » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:54 am

Bohra spring wrote:Humsafar...how many times should I remind you stop thinking you represent the reformists...speak for yourself. You are one in many. You can waffle to irrelevance with your narrow minded ness . You seem to only worry about finances..the movement is bigger than wajebat...you would not get it.

If you are looking for one who has been appointed by an imam then choose one from SMB , Alawi, Suleimani..because no one else is claiming to be appointed by the Imam...not even Qutbudin.

Anajmi , H is no not my dial, I did not elect him neither did 999,999 bohras :lol:
Bohra Spring, Humsafar is not representing the reformists. No Sir, you are most certainly mistaken. He is representing the Bohra doctrine and philosophy.

You make a very strong and convincing argument but it has no place in the current scheme of things. Give it maybe 70-80 years, who knows, you might be proved right then. But right now... give it a rest now

Humsafar
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#118

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:18 am

Bohra spring wrote:Humsafar...how many times should I remind you stop thinking you represent the reformists...speak for yourself. You are one in many. You can waffle to irrelevance with your narrow minded ness . You seem to only worry about finances..the movement is bigger than wajebat...you would not get it.

If you are looking for one who has been appointed by an imam then choose one from SMB , Alawi, Suleimani..because no one else is claiming to be appointed by the Imam...not even Qutbudin.

Anajmi , H is no not my dial, I did not elect him neither did 999,999 bohras :lol:
Bohra spring,
The fallacy in your argument springs (pun intended) from your total misunderstanding of the dawat and its role. The dawat is not some kind of political structure where the Dai/Imam is a prime minister or president who must be elected democratically and in turn must rule the community as such. You're giving more importance to the Dai than he deserves. There is no fatemid/tayyebi empire anymore, he has no political or legislative role to play. His only task is to manage a community of believers in religious and spiritual affairs. How he is appointed to the post is immaterial so long as he keeps out of the social and secular affairs of the community. And that is what reformists are trying to do, reclaim our social and secular space - which can be run democratically to your heart's content - and isolate the Dai and his devices to the religious sphere. Hope you understand.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#119

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:14 pm

How he is appointed to the post is immaterial so long as he keeps out of the social and secular affairs of the community
So by saying this are you now turning around to say he does not need to be appointed by an Imam? Who appoints him, who will appoint the 54th ? Muffy or the imam...so much self contradiction in your ideology.

Or are you saying that Smb or Muffy even though we suspect is not appointed by a Imam since the 50th as your ideology states, is acceptable as a diai ? As long as they reform their governance style.

You raise the issue that i guess implies there is no political need for a Fatimid Dia? Really when did this change in ideology creep in? So we have Diai lite!

If that is the case the diai is not a supreme authority, he has to follow local laws, which means societal and shariat? If that shariat requires he is selected or elected will he and you comply. If majority Bohras over time decide will he comly or will he go into exile and create another smaller cult ?

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

#120

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:31 pm

brother bohra spring,

can you please give this a rest? you are expending too much time and effort into proving that the dai and his nefarious establishment must/can be overthrown and the community can still call itself 'dawoodi bohras'.

since your 'democratic' solutions cannot be reconciled with bohra ideology, and its also not feasible to reform the ideology of the community with majority consent, then its time for you to consider other viable options. i have spelt them out in detail twice on this thread.

in the meanwhile, your continued and aggressive propagation of your robespierre-ian ideas on this thread is further damaging the cause of reform. if you persist, i am afraid you will start appearing like a valiant don quixote tilting at windmills, with not even a single sancho panza in support!

i mean this in a brotherly and constructive fashion with no malice intended.