Only on board Passengers can save this Sinking Ship

[SBM]

Br Bohra Spring
Just to add to what AZ said, if you do not have in the belief system then you can not call yourself member of that group Example
Ahmadiya (Qadyani) call themselves Muslim but the rest of the Muslim does not consider them as Muslims even though they do believe in everything in Islam except for Ghulam Mohammed to be their Massiah ( a violation of Islamic belief system) they even believe in separation of Church and State, which is again against the basic teaching of Islam or if Louis Farrakhan and his followers who call themselves Muslim (Nation of Islam) while not following all the tenets and beliefs of Islam
So the point is if you do not believe in Dai or Hidden Imam then you should not call yourself Bohra or Shia, In this case please listen to AZ and stop the further alienation of other abdes who are silently visiting the forum and learning about the corruption and let us focus on that only...........

[Bohra spring]

AZ and SBM how are you measuring that my pro-democracy preaching is damaging the PDB movement ?
Have you received feedback that abdes will only join PDB if they retain the Diai ?

If the masses of progressives and abdes in a referendum/ democratic process state that they want to retain the Diai by appointment I will stop and comply, I may also leave the community as a looser.

The world has changed and the future is based on consensus. By trying to silence the voices of demands will cause PDB to contradict its ideology and purpose.

I think it is good we are having this discussion so that abdes or any other progressives know what PDB stands for and if people want to choose not to support your current ideology it is their choice. let it not be seen as a hidden or superficial short sighted agenda. What really disturbs me and it is good that I get enlightened...you object to my suggestion not because I have abused you, or bringing innovation that is unIslamic, but because I am confusing traditionalists. Are you implying, and I hope this is not the official spirit of the PDB organisation, that the reform movement is only skin deep, after that we can continue Ismaili traditions even if they contradict Islam just so that we remain Dawoodi Bohras because we feel it is a good identity.

Rather than my radical ideas, your infexible and uninformed (from an Islamic perspective) position is doing more damage to the movement. I know you will hate this direct crticism, but I rather state it sincerely than get people on the wrong ship. I also think I may be on the wrong ship if someone else does not correct your comments ?

We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam. We accept the succession of Imams up to Imam Tayyeb, and the line of Tayyebi Dais starting from Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa to the current Dai, Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.

We are Dawoodi Bohras, and are referred to as reformists or progressives because of our struggle to bring social reforms in the community. We accept the religious authority and staus of the Dai. What we challenge is the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.

We challenge the illegitimate and unIslamic conduct of the Kothar which supposedly rules in the name of the Dai. Our struggle is rooted in the Islamic ideals of justice and accountability, and it is our conviction that there's more to being a Dawoodi Bohra than most of us have been led to believe. Our aim is not merely to lay bare the corruption of the priesthood but also to remind ourselves of what our true heritage is and how it is being destroyed.

However, it's not just our history, our religion and our way of life that's under attack. Common people and common resources everywhere are daily being laid waste by big corporations, self-centered ruling classes and obscurantist despots.

Our world is beset with problems, problems that are as intractable as they are complex and overwhelming. But then, where there's cruelty and unreason there's also compassion and intellect. And, not to forget that the human spirit, untamed by centuries of oppression, is always our steadfast ally. It's not for nothing that people continue to fight for their rights in the face of tremendous odds and at the cost of unimaginable personal sacrifice.

We are of the belief that though our struggle in the Bohra context is unique in many ways, it is yet intertwined with other peoples' struggle for peace, justice and dignity. Only by relating to larger struggles around us and by renewing our commitment to our shared ideals we can hope to bring justice and equity in our communnity and in the world at large.

The above is your mission statement, I have highlighted sections which you need to clarify and not misinterprete. I understand it differently from what you are stating. How can you be a better PDB than I am ?

What religion ? Islam !
What illegitimate ? Succession !
People fighting ? Which people !
Larger struggle ..world ? Which world are you living in ? India, West or North Korea

Please do not answer by stating do not question, I have heard enough from my Amil and I told him %$%^$^&^%$ !

[humanbeing]

Bohra as community and under guidance of Islam shall have its primary dependence on Quran and simple common sense of humanity.

As a bohra, identity established by previous duats can be maintained by cultural rituals, attires, philosophies and conduct permitted as Islamic.

An example such as bohra as a “trader community” or known for its cuisine, attire, conduct or unity. These are good examples to promote bohras

I Personally feel being a bohra is more of regional / cultural affiliation rather then religious. We all like to be called bohras for the collective unity, public conduct, social grooming.

Kothar convneniently chooses modus operandi as per its whim & fancy. Where monies & power are involved, they would play the religion card and maintain unfair oppressive control. But when it comes to mundane routine acitivies not affecting their cash registers or power seat. They leave it to lower level management to decide as per eligibility. At any given point remaining alert about any rebellion within the system.

Democracy is not about majority opinion. Democracy in its essence is about eligibility at every level of power and authority. Daim Islam states qualification and eligibilities of being a Dai (leader) this itself is a democratic process. (correct me, if wrong)

Eligibility not by virtue of birth or bloodline. But by capabilities and competencies to fulfill those roles. Competencies can be made by grooming, training and educating. Further these trainings are put to checks and examinations. This is how quality is maintained.

PDB or Kothar or Ismaili doctrine deny the concept of democracy in its essence, then its being hypocritical.

Every sphere of our lives is surrounded by these principles. Untrained person cannot argue to fly a plane, or perform surgeries, or make software.


People can choose their leader; leader cannot choose his people !

[Humsafar]

Now it is beginning to get irritating, all this deep analyses on democracy. The dai is not a political leader, Bohras are not a political outfit. The role of the dai is not to "rule" Bohras. He is only a religious leader, you do not elect religious leaders. Prophets were not elected (although this is not compare Dais with Prophets). If the Bohra Dai looks like an all-powerful potentate it is because he has assumed that power by trick and deception. To say that we must elect our dais is to legitimise that new status, the new cult of the Dai. It is like legitimising the illegitimate. Yes, let's have democracy in every aspect of our life, let's have it at every meal, but in one aspect - the religious - democracy is not needed. Look at the history of Bohras, it was never dai-centric, people went to him only for religious needs, so why are you guys are insisting on putting the Dai at the centre of the Bohra universe. Leave him alone to commune with the Imam, and let's make sure that their tete-a-tete does not violate our social and secular space.

[Al Zulfiqar]

If the masses of progressives and abdes in a referendum/ democratic process state that they want to retain the Diai by appointment ....

brother bohra spring,

let us talk in practical terms, how do you plan to hold this referendum?

- will you distribute flyers in every bohra masjid/markaz? (a sure-fire prescription to suicide!)
- will you then fix a firm date for holding an election to select a dai? (don quixote all over again)
- what will be the nomination process for dai-ship candidates?
- who decides that they have the requisite 'qualifications'? who nominates the council of 'supervisors' who screen such candidates?
- what will be the office-term for this elected dai that you are fixated on? life-term or 5 years and then re-election?
- what will be the duties of such a dai? purely missionary or to 'rule' over a community of sheep?
- what about his deputies, another side election for them too?

i can go on and on... do you see the practical difficulties? its all very well to dream and fantasise and to be an idealist, which is what you are. in a perfect world your ideas would make sense, but in that ideal world every bohra would be sensible and rational, would be devoid of blind faith and would be willing to throw the supposedly 'divinely' appointed dai out of the window alongwith the concept of an imam in satr, basically, throwing out the entire dawoodi bohra belief system onto the garbage heap and re-invent itself as a drastically new sect which will retain its old culture, traditions etc, but will be radically different. without any exaggeration i can confidently state that the only members of this sect will be you and a few of your supporters probably, unless you spend a fortune and recruit the naxalites who are always ready to engage in anti-establishment actions and ideology.

the mughal emperor tried such an experiment by 'inventing' a new deen called 'deen-e-ilahi', which borrowed from muslim, hindu, sufi and buddhist religions. what happened to that bold and path-breaking attempt? and he was an emperor with wide-ranging powers and influence over his subjects!

your only hope is to take the bull by the horns, implement the initiatives proposed by you and declare yourself the new dai. then let your work and actions speak for themselves, which is when abdes, suitably impressed, will start joining you in droves, until eventually you have the critical mass to lead a movement which will overthrow the present dai and his establishment.

sound feasible?

[Bohra spring]

AZ bhai..just because holding a referendum is difficult does not mean it is wrong ?

And how did you assume I want to be the Diai, I never said it , I never want to ...I am not capable, I am not sin-less, I have not the best character...but that does not mean I am not informed and learned, and I have an ambition that we can have a better society.

Humsafar...yes I will irritate you because you are ducking the issue by that you are getting in the way of Islamic movement , which is fine if you think PDB is your private group...but if you want people who want change, to join , and as per the privelage of this forum I will continue commenting challengeing your views. Do you really know what you are commenting...leader does not have to be political to be elected...look at definition of political ...whatever group even a corporate has politics which is another name for governance over the affairs of a group.

This fairy tale Diai you want to create will be incomplete if all you want is the person should interprete the scripture and suggest...while another group decides to accept the suggestions. If that is the case the real leadership is execute by this auxilliary group that can make decisions and in my approach this group has to to be the democratically selectected. I am not sure if that is what you are suggesting.

Let us start by defining what is the future role of a Diai and as we do, so read the article and educate yourselves. The other Topic is where I will past the qualities of leadership...you can explain how the Diai fullfills these broadly acceptable qualities, if not then let the next appointee meet those qualities, if he does not then let us kick him out and appoint some who does...let the best most capable Bohra lead the Bohra community.

I will point out your unhelpful, which you are unable to articulate in an Islamic detailand subsequent defence of traditionalism is based on very narrow view of what this small society is capable ...I would suggest in the interest of the future stand aside and let the future constituents decide their new faith. We can remain commentators and there are people smart enough to decide what to take in and what to rubbish. My job is to lobby for a very ambitious change, you can lobby for the alternative but provide a better defense rather than it is too hard or too complex. Your motive of trying to shout down any opposition that is not aligned to your agenda is going to come an hurt the PDB credibility.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8120&p=108310#p108310

[Humsafar]

...provide a better defense rather than it is too hard or too complex.

I never said let's not do it because it is hard or too complex. What I'm saying is that your obsession with democracy and linking it with Dai is a kooky idea. What I'm saying is that you're making too much out of Dai, giving him much too importance and status than he deserves. In your misplaced revolutionary zeal you are making him more important than he is. Let's organise our community around democracy, not the Dai. He matters not. Now you tell me which is a more revolutionary idea: 1) Leave the Dai alone or 2) Elect a Dai and make him the centre of our universe.

[Al Zulfiqar]

this debate is getting rather interesting! i have to give credit to bohra spring for stirring up the pot, irrespective of whether his views are appropriate and in consonance with bohra ideology or not.

i sense a mood among a section of bohra populace that is swinging towards a tipping point. a point where they are literally ready to chuck it all up, and either sideline the dai and his evil family by force or if it came to that, eliminate them from the overall scheme of things.

i am sure agents of the dai's establishment are here, reading and planting the seeds of their insidious propaganda on a daily basis. i hope they are realising how dangerous it is getting for their masters with their continued arrogance, extortion, loot, intimidation of the community and perversion of our faith. if they dont stop their tyranny and misuse of religion, one day the ordinary abde will rise in revolt and turn murderous and then no one will be able to stop the mayhem.

then no amount of reasoning from voices of sanity will be heeded. the flood of anger and resentment will respect nothing and no one.

[Bohra spring]

...provide a better defense rather than it is too hard or too complex.

I never said let's not do it because it is hard or too complex. What I'm saying is that your obsession with democracy and linking it with Dai is a kooky idea. What I'm saying is that you're making too much out of Dai, giving him much too importance and status than he deserves. In your misplaced revolutionary zeal you are making him more important than he is. Let's organise our community around democracy, not the Dai. He matters not. Now you tell me which is a more revolutionary idea: 1) Leave the Dai alone or 2) Elect a Dai and make him the centre of our universe.

3. Create a new institution of leadership based on Islamic democratic principles...call it what you may ...Diai, Imam, Khalifa, Grand Amil, Sultan -e-Dawaat, Ustad of Ustands, Grand Ghulam of Islam, !

[Humsafar]

Al Zulfiqar,
I beg to differ. This "stirring of pot" is causing unnecessary confusion, and distracting us from the core reform agenda.

Bohra spring,
There is no need to create a "new institution of leadership", all we need to do is to create democratic and autonomous institutions at jamaat level. That will give real power to people. Let every jamaat be like Udaipur reformist jamaat and that should serve our purpose just fine. The Dai will be put in his place and the "royal family" will out on the streets.

[anajmi]

Let every jamaat be like Udaipur reformist jamaat and that should serve our purpose just fine. The Dai will be put in his place and the "royal family" will out on the streets.

If you recollect an earlier post of mine, this is what I had said

The current reformist society is a perfect example. You do not have any ties to the Dai. You have your own system for carrying out your religious and societal duties. Instead of presenting the reformist movement as something that wants to reform the Dai and get back into his control, it should be presented as an alternative that frees people of their bondage to the Dai.

They sound similar don't they?

[Humsafar]

They do, and we are on the same page, it seems. This is the reformist agenda, to which I'm trying to bring back the focus of some of us who are getting fixated on Dai, leadership and their election.

[Bohra spring]

There is no need to create a "new institution of leadership", all we need to do is to create democratic and autonomous institutions at jamaat level. That will give real power to people. Let every jamaat be like Udaipur reformist jamaat and that should serve our purpose just fine. The Dai will be put in his place and the "royal family" will out on the streets.

Please exlain how is Udaipur PDB Jamaat working, how does it cooperate with other Jammats, how are the officials appointed, what is the decision hieracrchy who decides ultimately ? .

I have pulled this from the PDB website

3.The aims and objects for which this Board is established are: a.To provide democratic alternative as far as the socio-economic set-up of the community is concerned. The Board shall make necessary arrangements for performance of nikahs and burials of the dead in the Dawoodi Bohra cemetries.
b.To disseminate and promote the growth of the rich heritage of the Dawate-Fatemi.
c.To undertake activities conducive to the welfare of the community and its harmonious growth.
d.To undertake activities with a view to promote better understanding harmonious living and integration among various sections of the highly stratified Indian society.
e.To establish and run an Islamic Academy with a view to undertake intensive research on religio-culture aspects of the Dawate-Fatemi in particular and various Islamic seats and theo-philosophic trends in general.

4.Membership
The number of members for Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community (herein after called 'The Board') is declared to be unlimited. All those who profess to be Dawoodi Bohras and take part in its religio-cultural activities shall be entitled to become the member of the Board on payment of Rs. 2/- per annum per person. The child born in the community shall be, for all practical purposes, treated as 'Dawoodi Bohra', and shall continue to be Dawoodi Bohra until such time as he renounce this faith by express declaration to that effect.
5.Member's right:
Every member shall be subject to any regulations made form time to time by the Central Committee, be entitled to free access to all the premises of the Board and to be present at all religious functions, lectures, discourses and conferences held by the Board, be entitled to draw benefit from the welfare activities of the Board, as also to the issue, traits or at prices fixed by the Committee, of all publications by the Association. Every adult member shall be entitled to one vote in the periodical General Meetings of the Board.
6.Disqualification from membership:
Any person voluntarily converting himself/herself to any other faith or making express declaration of renunciation of the Dawoodi Bohra faith shall cease to be the member of the Board.
The General Meetings of the Board can expel any member for non-payment of his/her subscription for a period exceeding three years.

Dawoodi Bohra Jamaat (Reformist Group) is a registered body with it's own constitution. The Jamaat deals with the various affairs of the community. One of its article, Article 8 states that 21 candidates are to be elected by the jamaat members through elections and 11 candidates are to be co-opted by elected members to the General Council. The elected members and co-opted members would then form Executive Committee from amongst themselves. The executive committee consists of: -


1.One Chairman
2.Two Vice Chairmen
3.One Secretary
4.Two Joint Secretaries
5.One Treasurer
6.One Accountant
7.Three general members

The election process has been adopted by the Dawoodi Bohra Jamaat from since the early 70s.

Following are the stages of the electoral process:-

Preparation of electoral rolls

Before every election after a house-to-house visit, the names of the Jamaat members who are of 18 yrs. of age or above are listed in order to prepare the electoral rolls. These electoral rolls are then published in draft for inviting claims and objections. Then after the final corrections the rolls are published and are used for the General Election.

Question..what do you mean by growth ?
Your consitution states this is limited to India...yet the movement is now a global uprising
You expel people who are not followers of Dawoodi faith
What are the powers of the Executive commitee ?
What affairs ?
General Council words you use Council of what ?
Has the PDB movement grown, what are the stats or trends
How do you determine who can stand for election..is it popularity, capability,competency. Is their campaigning ?
One principle of democracy is that the citizens can collectively ask for change of constitution, so you cannot stop criticism or new ideas. Otherwise you are a new dictatorship or a communist party

Look my PDB freinds..I am analysisng the details because yes in the past it was ok as for providing salvage to an excommunicated group or section ...but the movement needs to mature towards being an alternative faith that is sophisticated, reliable so it can attract the modern educated youth and take us forward. This is agood time to revisit your constitution and decide or another splinter group is in the creation.

This is from the Ontario Board..

It says it all but the excuse could be what I am stating

In recent years, we have lost about six families as members, five of them reverting to the Orthodox side because of family pressures, but this is a reality for all Reformist groups in the world.

[ozmujaheed]

The point is valid that has PDB reviewed its existing setup and taken on board the aspirations of the youth and voices of reason. It is naive to assume everything is perfect on the ship and just sail along since someone many years ago decided on the route so she should be fine mate.

What many are stating, implies, that may be it is time to refurbish the ship, create new rules, renovate with new tools so it can be more effective and attractive. May be get rid of the windsails and invest in a motor, offer rooms rather than a tent ? Let people choose a menu instead of a soup kitchen. We may get to a better destination.

1970 is very much different from 2013, People are different, times are different. What you thought was an issue in 1970 is now a different form of issue.

There is very real chance the Bohra society foundations will collapse in a few years time after the passing away of SMB, it is no longer if but when, ( I wish him a peacful life ) but when this will happen Muffy and Qutbi and other factions will start morphing, there may be chaos, disunity, corruption and when this happens we will look in hindsight and regret that PDB was not ripe to help people along. We were just not ready and some opportunistic corrupt factions may takeover by deceit.

And is the issue PDB was not meant to be that major salvage ship that we need and we may have to start creating that new ship ( Ark) and PDB members are welcome, and the Ark rules will state it does not explel members for reasons of faith or criticism ! We can continue refining how we will find the captain !

Do not for once fear self criticism..in its own way this potrays to Abdes nothing is off limits, no one is sacred..if you can not take the heat then step aside. Plain transparent rules to apply for all issues and concerns. You will be suprised initially it will feel daunting but over time it will be self healing, sustaining...see around the West...society knows how to self regulate and at the same time the best of human contribution can be seeded.

[as2153]

It's more likely that the PDB movement will stall than the dawoodi bohra community begin collapsing. Part of the reason for this is a lack of a cohesive set of beliefs between those in the PDB. I have read comments that range from those that want democracy to those that want no dai to those that just want oppression to end. For those that wish to have no dai as the spiritual leader, you can find other Muslim sects that are a better fit. Believing in the dai as the spiritual guide is what defines a dawoodi bohra (progressive or not). As a younger person, I don't personally sense the oppression currently that many that are now part of the PDB may have experienced over the years. I also sensed that my father had to give a lot more than he could afford as i was growing up and that was just the way it was but my own experience has been that they ask for a lot, you say no and stand your ground, it's perhaps a little uncomfortable but they accept it and there is no repercussions - life goes on. I perhaps feel that things are much easier now because bad behavior is so quickly exposed by technology that our leaders are more careful about how they behave. I also think its easier in the west, because I perceive that DBs in the west are just a lot less tolerant of nonsense and more willing to stand there ground. Improving transparency in the use of funds and reducing control over din issues are certainly areas that need to be improved. I also feel that many people (not all) confuse the bad behavior of amils or other leaders with weaknesses in our faith but these are not the same.

[Bohra spring]

As thank you for your comments...

Not all commentators are PDB members and off course there is no cohesiveness , but that is sign of diversity, we hope to reach consensus...Islam allows diverse views.

I do not think you can ask people not to call themselves Bohras if they do not agree with the established ideology or it is not okay to create a segregated Dawoodi Bohra closed gated community and run a exclusion process. This form of apartheid cannot be tolerated in the 21st. century. If this continues Bohra will be classified as unislamic and target for discrimination from Islamic identity or secular society , leading to repercussions as you see in Pakistan.

Regarding you have found ways to stand up for your rights is a good sign.

The weakness of Amils is directly a consequence of loose and corrupt leadership, it is biased not to hold the diai accountable for issues but give credit for achievements. Amils are chosen by the leadership.

[Humsafar]

t's more likely that the PDB movement will stall than the dawoodi bohra community begin collapsing. Part of the reason for this is a lack of a cohesive set of beliefs between those in the PDB. I have read comments that range from those that want democracy to those that want no dai to those that just want oppression to end.

This is what I was fearing when I maintained that all this hare-brained discussion about "democracy is going to create confusion. It's giving the impression that the reform movement is not cohesive in its beliefs and its agenda. This is not true.
as2153, please do not be misled by the views of a few members on this forum and do not form an opinion on the reform movement based on those views. We are very clear about our agenda and our methodology. Please read the literature on this site and these articles. This is an open forum, people are free to air their views and the majority of participants are not part of the "official" reform movement and may not be familiar with our "official" position. Thank you, and welcome to the Forum.

[Humsafar]

As a younger person, I don't personally sense the oppression currently that many that are now part of the PDB may have experienced over the years. I also sensed that my father had to give a lot more than he could afford as i was growing up and that was just the way it was but my own experience has been that they ask for a lot, you say no and stand your ground, it's perhaps a little uncomfortable but they accept it and there is no repercussions - life goes on.

You personally may not have experience "oppression" but it does not mean it is not there. You admit that your "father had to give" and that they have been asking you "for a lot". Don't you see that the whole system is geared to extract money from Bohras. Whether the extortion is crude or gentle is not the issue. The issue is that extortion is the foundation of this system. You're in a position to put your foot down, but not everybody can do that. We need more people like you who would not only put their foot down but also question their excesses. One step at a time, though. Glad to hear your report, people after all are awakening.

[Humsafar]

Question..what do you mean by growth ?
Your consitution states this is limited to India...yet the movement is now a global uprising
You expel people who are not followers of Dawoodi faith
What are the powers of the Executive commitee ?
What affairs ?
General Council words you use Council of what ?
Has the PDB movement grown, what are the stats or trends
How do you determine who can stand for election..is it popularity, capability,competency. Is their campaigning ?

Please come to Udaipur, we'll answer all your questions. Bring OZ with you too, and please leave your magic mushrooms behind.

[Conscíous]

HAha ^^
I was waiting for Bhai AZ to say something in that line

since you are so seized with this issue and you want a first hand answer, the only way for you and your fellow morons would be to go to udaipur, attend fajr prayers for a week and see and hear first hand whether they are reciting dai's names upto the 52nd. you will receive first class and warm hospitality and will be welcomed with open arms. your accomodation, food and everything else will be taken care of fully.

[Bohra spring]

Please come to Udaipur, we'll answer all your questions. Bring OZ with you too, and please leave your magic mushrooms

Did you intentionally not answer the PDB constitutional queries ?

Ridiculing other like minded thinkers is ok, that is the small price to pay for the outcome. Some of us are ready for greater sacrifice.

The seeds for change have been planted. I am ready to give it time, let the democratic concept age, and ripen, ..., this is a human instinct that has been successful , history is full of great stories. If the Chinese communist party is grappling with the rise of democratic desires, , islam conquered dynasties, Arab spring rose, do you really believe you can stop the tide, you may succeed in delaying it , but not the change. ...in a few years it will be self evident who is the one with the crazy ideas....mark my words.

Udapiur ? Why what has it got to offer ?

[Humsafar]

Udapiur ? Why what has it got to offer ?

A lot, actually. For one, it made this site, this Forum possible. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were not for Udaipur. About other offerings, come to Udaipur and you'll know. But it surprises me that you still have to ask such a question. What kind of reformist sympathiser are you?

[Bohra spring]

Udapiur ? Why what has it got to offer ?

A lot, actually. For one, it made this site, this Forum possible. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were not for Udaipur. About other offerings, come to Udaipur and you'll know. But it surprises me that you still have to ask such a question. What kind of reformist sympathiser are you?

Again what has Udaipur got to offer as an example of an ideal way of leading an Islamic society ? I am asking because it is not clear or it is not good enough. I am not goint to come to Udaipur as a visitor...your constitution is very different from what you describe in your responses..there are worrying terms like expulsion...so makes me wonder ...do you practise what you preach ! You have not clarified why your constitution reads as it is ?

Yes PDB has fought battles, have got bruises and I congratulate them for scaring the Kothar, for standing up when others were fearing...we would be worse off..yes we are grateful.
But that is no reason to be complacent and be obligated that the reform will always be defined by the PDB as it stands. The reform will be defined by the times it is in, PDB can choose to move with times or it will be reduced as one of the alternative destinations where the faith will go. Until then you will be criticised as we criticise Kothar.

The difference is Kothar is a systemic issue...it is terminal...a miracle can save it...PDB is a tumour and there is higher chance of rectifying...much easier than cloning a whole new being.

I am looking for a compromise and happy to call a cease to this debate if the PDB is prepared to review its constitution and accept the will of the people not right now but soon. If the people want democracy in whatever form or depth let the people choose. Traditions or unsubstantiated excused like core faith etc is only acceptable if based on true Islamic principles.

In the same context Kothar will read this and may come to the party sooner and there may be a self realisation that times have changed, I bet they will react over time as it is a matter of survival or relevance.

Whoever delivers the outcome will get our support. We are opportunistic. So who knows Surat may beat you to hosting the rebels before we reach Udaipur.

The loyalty is as deep and strong as how aligned our objectives are.

[Al Zulfiqar]

bohra spring and ozzy,

dont be in such a haste to discount udaipur and regard it as a footnote to history. in fact what happened in udaipur is a unique phenomenon in modern bohra history. for the first time an entire community of a town rose in revolt, with women actually leading at the forefront. this resulted in them taking possession of the community's properties: masjids, jamatkhanas, kabrastans and other trust properties. this they were able to do because each jamaat was independent in those days and registered as a trust in the name of the local community.

in order to prevent the recurrence of such an event ever again anywhere in the world, taher saifuddin embarked on a reign of terror whereby he had each and every bohra jamaat property, incl, pvt trusts, forcibly transferred to his name as corporation sole/sole trustee. in order to further cement his iron power, he made the amils his puppets and paid lackeys. previously the amils were sent from bombay but they were paid and taken care of by each jamaat. these amils were truly qualified and educated in our deen and they knew their limitations. not only that each jamaat committee was also locally chosen with the most able and service minded members appointed by the community itself in consultation with their amil. now even the jamaat committee are appointed through the local amil seeking raza/sanction for them from mumbai. most of these committee members are selected for their wealth, fanaticism and with an eye on how they can help the kothar to further their agenda with strong-arm tactics, influence with local authorities and connections with power networks. so now the entire local administration of each jamaat is under the firm control of syedna to do his bidding as he sees fit.

to prevent any physical uprising, a youth organisation was also formed called shabab for boys/young men and bunaiyyat for girls, which acts as a security force and is ready to engage in violent combat, as they have demonstrated in udaipur and elsewhere. to segregate and identify the hardcore believers from the lukewarm bohras, a dress code was strictly enforced and beards were made compulsory, the wilder and more unkempt the better, so that you could be identified as firmly in the syedna camp of dangerous fanatics. around the same time, all scholarly works on our deen, our history and philosophy were also forcibly taken away from wealthy bohras and pvt trusts under pain of baraat and all truly learned and knowledgeable bohras were especially marked for elimination or side-lining. they were carefully and secretly monitored to check for signs of dissent. in fact taher saifuddin had such a mortal fear of them that many were persecuted and falsely maligned to pre-empt any anti-propaganda that they might make against his terror tactics, unreligious behaviour and immorality. the respect that these learned shaikhs enjoyed was completely watered down and debased by granting the title of shaikhs and mullas to anyone with money, irrespective of his character or source of his wealth.

taxes were increased and all pvt charity became 'haraam'. bohras were now mercilessly milked and subjugated. the 52nd continued and even increased the tyranny, putting in more systems, taxes and blatantly unislamic methods to enforce their hegemony and power, actively courting leading goondas, politicians, police, etc etc.

this was the impact and resultant fallout of the udaipur revolt. the entire power of the corrupt syedna and his goons is carefully and systematically orchestrated through his hired amils and jamaat committees. what humsafar is trying to drive home here is that seize the control back at the jamaat level. it is not as easy now as it was in the time of udaipur due to all the iron-clad protections that kothar has put in place, but if led by a determined group with legal aid, its still not impossible, esp in the west and even in africa. forget about the dai for now, stop entertaining thoughts of overthrowing him and his family, or replacing him. let him be to function just as things were only 60-70 years back. if each jamaat starts falling, it will have a domino effect, meek bohras will get emboldened and automatically the absolute power and overwhelming influence of the dai will fade. thats the best way to curb their monstrous interference and meddling in our personal lives and to show them their real place.

brothers bohra spring and ozzy, you have made your point. now retreat for a while to formulate a 'realistic' and 'do-able' strategy, stop engaging in a war of words with idealistic and high falutin' rhetoric, expounding virtual treatises on what an ideal society should be and how it should function. perhaps the ones who must be most bemused reading your far-fetched and unrealistic ideas must be the kothari goons, for the wily rascals know it will never succeed. i appeal to you as a comrade in arms, please ponder and study the foolish outcomes of what you propose, instead of striking out once again.

i think i have wasted enough time and effort and so have various other well-meaning people trying to correct you on this subject. i for one will not be responding to it anymore.

[Bohra spring]

AZ I am not disputing the Udaipur history or its significance incidences or the charatcter of Kothar. But with such history what is Udaipur offering to the Bohra society...is it offering a model, expansion of its model. Your responses or Humsafar does not explain what is PDB really standing for, the costitution pasted is a full of issues ...fighting legal battles to regain control is only going to deliver part success.....

You ramble into insults, the more I dig in I sense a fear, hidden agenda, suspicion and question what you guys really stand for....your methods has attracted people onto this blog and then what...you are looking at gradual blog and name and shame hoping Kothar will feel treatened and change. Let us wait another 40 years or hope someone like Qutbi succeeds and he is diffrent...good luck

Any credible institution, political party, faction has to have a strategy based on Islamic ideals, drive for freedom such that it is so wonderful and exciting that people want to voluntarily turn to it. Complaining about money , corruption is not serious enough issues...someone another day stated there is really no burning issue. Why would someone in Abde society enjoying good tifin, promise of heaven, pay small amount of tax to Bohras when compared to his other expenses, be social and cosy feel good want to join PDB and be isolated.
Kothar must be thanking their luck and assuming they have dodged a bombshell..that after these many weeks a real spark of an uprising based on solid foundation is likely to run out of oxygen...

[SBM]

brothers bohra spring and ozzy, you have made your point. now retreat for a while to formulate a 'realistic' and 'do-able' strategy, stop engaging in a war of words with idealistic and high falutin' rhetoric, expounding virtual treatises on what an ideal society should be and how it should function.

Agree

[humanbeing]

Democratizing local level jamaat will solve PDB’s issue ?

PDB says, core of bohra faith depends on dai and belief in hidden imam, they follow what dai says in religious matter and not secular matters. List down secular and religious matters !! for clarity please.

[Humsafar]

The reformist (secular) demands are:

• Accountability/transparency of funds collected from the people by way of various taxes (this should also mean an end to illegitimate and unreasonable taxes)

• Local jamaat autonomy. People through their elected jamaat should be the owner and managers of all communities properties and assets.

• End of ex-communication, misaq (in its current form) and raza which are being used by the clergy as tools of terror and suppression.
  Freedom of speech, right to question the clergy and jamaat officials, right to say no to strict dress code etc.

If we can achieve the first two, the rest should automatically follow. Will this solve all our problems? Probably not. But this is a good, solid foundation on which we can slowly build a fair, just and compassionate community.

[Humsafar]

Bohra spring,
I wish I could agree with you, but you are way out there in La La Land. Sorry mate I too must give up on you. But do keep us posted on your progress. Best.

[seeker110]

Mistreatment of poor, elders and keeping funds belonging to Yateem and Miskeen, should stop. As Muslims we have to do Jehad. Bhoras only do Maali Jehad. We have to do Janni Jehad. I have been offered paid work, business partnership and have never been mistreated by Amils or clergy above Amils. Since I have no personal enmity, I stand to fight for the right of the oppressed. I do not believe justice could be achieved any other way. If someone still believes it can be done by legal steps I would like to see the history of the last 60 years.

How many times Mola Ali used Zulfikar. Every time Islam was in danger. It is the right time for Jehad, if not now, when.