Qutbi Bohras

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#271

Unread post by Grayson » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:21 pm

I would also like to ask, for everyone who claims they are part of or know people part of Mazoon's 'new daawat': what was the reasoning behind this change in allegiance? If indeed this is true, why change camps? Any evidence provided by the alleged 'Mazoon camp' to suggest so?

I would prefer actual responses from claimants themselves rather than speculation on behalf of others by members of this forum. I know of discourse and tension but still have not heard of outright dissent from anyone in India, so if there's a person who's an official supporter or representative of Mazoon, I urge them to speak up.

Sceptical
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#272

Unread post by Sceptical » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:34 pm

I don't know how is the situation in England, but in other jamaat in Europe there is no such claims. Same situation in most of East Africa countries according my friends (Kenya, Tanzania, Madagascar...) no one has heard about Qutbi Bohra.

I doubt Mazoon Saheb can do anything in Africa. People seem to follow without hesitation Muffaddal Saheb. Some of my "friends" do not even know what is Mazoon-e-dawat's name :shock: :roll:

So, false rumor... or secret cult ?
Last edited by Sceptical on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#273

Unread post by Grayson » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:45 pm

While it seems it could be a false rumor, it's still too soon to say. Let's see if anyone has anything transparent or constructive to add to the matter. Particularly from those that claim they're with Mazoon. Or moreso, that Mazoon has a different faction for them to be with.

voice
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#274

Unread post by voice » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:16 pm

Well, till SMB is alive Mazoon saheb`s camp is not going to take any such step which will result in people`s sentiments going in favor of mansoos.

So, strategical and planned moves are done and gradually Mazoon saheb has achieved lot of ground and support. Its inside family game which is going to be most decisive. Here too Mazoon saheb is more strong.

Humsafar
Posts: 2549
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#275

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:24 pm

Grayson wrote:knowing that Syedna Taher Saifuddin did irrefutable nuss on Mazoon saheb would likely overcome doubt
I don't think a Dai can do nuss on two succeeding Dais.

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#276

Unread post by Grayson » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:28 pm

Humsafar wrote: I don't think a Dai can do nuss on two succeeding Dais.
No, I don't think so either. But (if true) having support by a revered figure such as Syedna Taher Saifuddin (Mazoon) is better than uncertainty of Nuss (Mufaddal Bhaisaheb).

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#277

Unread post by Grayson » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:29 pm

voice wrote:Well, till SMB is alive Mazoon saheb`s camp is not going to take any such step which will result in people`s sentiments going in favor of mansoos.

So, strategical and planned moves are done and gradually Mazoon saheb has achieved lot of ground and support. Its inside family game which is going to be most decisive. Here too Mazoon saheb is more strong.
Are things even as bad as we're making it out to be? How can we pretend to assume what's going on behind the scenes?
This is why I suggest people that allegedly (or actually) belong to certain factions back up their words with supportive reasoning, if not evidence.
We're just speculating at this point.

voice
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#278

Unread post by voice » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:03 pm

well, evidences and proofs are not easy to display, you`ll have to find the truth between the lines. Asking for proof of Nass, no text, audio or video of nass on any website. In fact all were removed.
Then, article published in HT, demand of condemnation by mansoos camp but complete silence by Mazoon saheb`s camp is some of them.

Kaka Akela
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#279

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:33 pm

I am sorry to disappoint you all with the latest news from Mumbai that there will be no Qutbi bohras.
Mazoon saheb who was in USA left for India a week ago and has written a rebuttal to the Hindustan Times that he has accepted the Nass on Mufaddal Bhaisaheb Saifuddin.

So all of you who were ready to draft Mazoon saheb for a Daiship, he is not willing to accept it, find some one else.

However, another news item from Mumbai is That Kothar (meaning Sh--zadas) has called back all the Ameens (money hoarding men) of dawat from all over the world to Mumbai to give misaq to make sure they will not hand over the money and property to the new Qutbi Bohras sect. Howevernow, with the submission of Mazoon saheb this meeting is moot and further waste of money for travels for those ameens.

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#280

Unread post by Grayson » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:34 pm

It's not truth just yet if it's between the lines. We attempt to make sense; our queries are valid and not completely unfounded. But only people who know for sure could clear doubt. I sure hope they do, and urge them to do so. At present, we can only be patient and discuss intelligently. Let's cautiously reach towards what may or may not be, not pretend to know what's going on.

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#281

Unread post by Grayson » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:36 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:I am sorry to disappoint you all with the latest news from Mumbai that there will be no Qutbi bohras.
Mazoon saheb who was in USA left for India a week ago and has written a rebuttal to the Hindustan Times that he has accepted the Nass on Mufaddal Bhaisaheb Saifuddin.
Awesome. Is this rebuttal publicly available? An official statement stands strong.

Sceptical
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#282

Unread post by Sceptical » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:51 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:I am sorry to disappoint you all with the latest news from Mumbai that there will be no Qutbi bohras.
Mazoon saheb who was in USA left for India a week ago and has written a rebuttal to the Hindustan Times that he has accepted the Nass on Mufaddal Bhaisaheb Saifuddin.
if it's true that's a good news.
We really don't need an another split.

Kaka Akela
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#283

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:00 pm

Humsafar wrote:
I don't think a Dai can do nuss on two succeeding Dais.


He sure can, and this has already happened in our history. The 25th Dai Syedna Jalal Shamsuddin did Nass on Dawoodain, meaning the 26th Dai and the 27th Dai both were named Dawood. One was Ajab Shah and the other was Qutub shah.

Humsafar
Posts: 2549
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#284

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:53 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:Humsafar wrote:
I don't think a Dai can do nuss on two succeeding Dais.


He sure can, and this has already happened in our history. The 25th Dai Syedna Jalal Shamsuddin did Nass on Dawoodain, meaning the 26th Dai and the 27th Dai both were named Dawood. One was Ajab Shah and the other was Qutub shah.
Probably that is why the succession dispute arose after the death of the 26th Dai Ajabshah and Tayyebis split into Dawoodis and Sulaymanis. Moral of the story: appoint one Dai at a time.

voice
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#285

Unread post by voice » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:18 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:I am sorry to disappoint you all with the latest news from Mumbai that there will be no Qutbi bohras.
Mazoon saheb who was in USA left for India a week ago and has written a rebuttal to the Hindustan Times that he has accepted the Nass on Mufaddal Bhaisaheb Saifuddin.
Now, these is fake news campaign by mansoos`s follower, it would be nice of you if you can provide proof for it, which unfortunately is not with you, else mansoos camp would be celebrating 'fateh mubeen'.

In fact I would like to share a news posted on another thread of this forum, "It is reported that majority of bohras residing at the northern end of Mumbai suburbs i.e. from Bhayander to Virar have joined the Mazun camp !!"

MunkirNakir
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#286

Unread post by MunkirNakir » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:39 am

Sceptical wrote:
Kaka Akela wrote:I am sorry to disappoint you all with the latest news from Mumbai that there will be no Qutbi bohras.
Mazoon saheb who was in USA left for India a week ago and has written a rebuttal to the Hindustan Times that he has accepted the Nass on Mufaddal Bhaisaheb Saifuddin.
if it's true that's a good news.
We really don't need an another split.
yes no more splits, let abde moron live in same miserable life for more 1000 years :D

MunkirNakir
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#287

Unread post by MunkirNakir » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:41 am

Kaka Akela wrote:I am sorry to disappoint you all with the latest news from Mumbai that there will be no Qutbi bohras.
Mazoon saheb who was in USA left for India a week ago and has written a rebuttal to the Hindustan Times that he has accepted the Nass on Mufaddal Bhaisaheb Saifuddin.

So all of you who were ready to draft Mazoon saheb for a Daiship, he is not willing to accept it, find some one else.

However, another news item from Mumbai is That Kothar (meaning Sh--zadas) has called back all the Ameens (money hoarding men) of dawat from all over the world to Mumbai to give misaq to make sure they will not hand over the money and property to the new Qutbi Bohras sect. Howevernow, with the submission of Mazoon saheb this meeting is moot and further waste of money for travels for those ameens.
please make your mind first, and then post, u are posting two different stories in same post.

Sceptical
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#288

Unread post by Sceptical » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:26 am

MunkirNakir wrote:yes no more splits, let abde moron live in same miserable life for more 1000 years :D
Because I think that split will inevitably increase kothaar's power. Mazoon Saheb camp will not be able to gather many mumeneen. The bureaucracy will remain identical.

The Propaganda of the other side will tell us : "We are true mumeneen, follower of the true Dai..."

Followers of one or the other sub-sect will go through more brainwash.

My humble opinion.

wise_guy
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:52 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#289

Unread post by wise_guy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:32 am

Grayson wrote:
Humsafar wrote: I don't think a Dai can do nuss on two succeeding Dais.
No, I don't think so either. But (if true) having support by a revered figure such as Syedna Taher Saifuddin (Mazoon) is better than uncertainty of Nuss (Mufaddal Bhaisaheb).
Syedna Taher Saifuddin (Mazoon).... ???????? :roll:

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#290

Unread post by Grayson » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:10 am

If there's a document written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin about the Mazoon, it gives Mazoon support.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#291

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:36 pm

Grayson wrote:If there's a document written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin about the Mazoon, it gives Mazoon support.
If insiders are to believed then there definately is a document lying with the 52nd Dai otherwise there wouldn't have been a hue and cry among the average bohras about it. Remember that this point is raised not only on this forum but even within the average bohras themselves, albeit in a hushed tone.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#292

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed May 01, 2013 2:55 am

According to the latest news from Kothar sources:
Mazoon Saheb is Thane - Mumbai.
He is very critical, more critical than Daiz-Zaman.

[Golden chance to get rid of him.]

voice
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#293

Unread post by voice » Wed May 01, 2013 5:54 am

S. Insaf wrote:According to the latest news from Kothar sources:
Mazoon Saheb is Thane - Mumbai.
He is very critical, more critical than Daiz-Zaman.
Why he is not in Saifee hospital ?

Sceptical
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#294

Unread post by Sceptical » Wed May 01, 2013 7:25 am

S. Insaf wrote:Mazoon Saheb is Thane - Mumbai.
He is very critical, more critical than Daiz-Zaman.
what happened to him ?

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#295

Unread post by Grayson » Wed May 01, 2013 10:37 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:If insiders are to believed then there definately is a document lying with the 52nd Dai otherwise there wouldn't have been a hue and cry among the average bohras about it. Remember that this point is raised not only on this forum but even within the average bohras themselves, albeit in a hushed tone.
Again, who are these 'insiders'? How reliable are they?

I'll be honest, off of this forum I've heard of murmurs among the general populace about Syedna Taher Saifuddin possibly intending Mazoon saheb as his successor (mostly used as an explanation for why the hudood don't get along with the shehzadas), but it's only through this forum that I've heard that there's alleged written proof in the current Dai's posession (and that too, through unverifiable whispers). Not to mention, saying that general gossip among average Bohras means unrest in regards to this doesn't mean anything at all. Considering the ire some members have thrown on the Bohra population as a whole, it's intellectually dishonest to selectively side with them on matters in which we may agree that still offers no concrete and tangible proof.

How could we assume to connect the dots if there's no picture that's formed?

It's not about what is or isn't as much as it's about assumptions and allegations of a matter that's still up in the air.

Thinking and questioning differs greatly from baseless conjecture and cryptic embellished 'evidence'.

Think and ponder away, but don't pretend to know while obscurity still runs rampant.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#296

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed May 01, 2013 12:49 pm

voice wrote: Why he is not in Saifee hospital ?
saifee hospital is not for muffy na dushman. even if mazoon were to get admitted there, he would be summarily terminated by poisoning or some other skullduggery. mazoon is sick, not stupid.

voice
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#297

Unread post by voice » Wed May 01, 2013 1:48 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
voice wrote: Why he is not in Saifee hospital ?
saifee hospital is not for muffy na dushman. even if mazoon were to get admitted there, he would be summarily terminated by poisoning or some other skullduggery. mazoon is sick, not stupid.
well, that`s the point I wanted to get highlighted specially for those who love to live in denial.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#298

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed May 01, 2013 3:07 pm

Whatever the outcome of the Muffy vs Qutbi drama...serious damage has been done , this issue will sear and rot as time goes by into people's faith for the 53rd , whoever wins will be on shaky. The 54th will also inherit the mess.

The chances of Qutbi winning is unlikely there is too much gap. The most he or his camp will get is financial compensation to buy out his ambitions. By the way he has not publicly claimed any position whether e he is objecting to the way the mass was done or he considers himself the next rightful dia.

There is a chance a small group will split and reformist congregate around the new group . Qutbi provides the continuation of Dawoodi Bohra ideology , without radical change. It is like a change of guards yet the core remains. It is convenient and safe to back Qutbi.

Why Qutbi because it is a good vessel that justifies ...the "ship captain " reformists were looking for . Qutbi is a safe alternative and easy approach without massive reforms. Bohras like the mythology, imam zaman concept, traditions...having Qutbi as the diai, or concept allows all that to be retained. Qutbi whether truly or false is a aspirational Diai with royalty pedigree but hope that he is progressive, and not corrupt or oppressive.

However it is not known if Qutbi concept will survive test of time but if it does and there is a splinter group whether the drive for the reforms end , the new group falls into the same slavish culture.

I personally never had loyalty to Muffy or SMB , they both failed my idea of an Islamic leader ,

Qutbi, I will wait and see since anything is better than the Muffy ideology, signs of desperation. But even if Qutbi concept survives and turns up to be a better leader ad not another con job , or not same old money chasers and the expectations of most issues are resolved , may be I may give him a chance, he will not be this replacement of a "godly" character Muffy and SMB has falsely claimed the dia is. So I will buy popcorn and watch the drama unfold and have patience how this unfolds ..and at the end see was it a worthwhile entertainment. Or are we left with a cliff hanger

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#299

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed May 01, 2013 3:27 pm

Bohra spring wrote:Whatever the outcome of the Muffy vs Qutbi drama...serious damage has been done ..

There is a chance a small group will split and reformist congregate around the new group .
1. no serious damage has been done. the thieves will not break ranks. they will unite under a common banner as the stakes are very high and sweep their dissensions under the carpet. the stupid abdes will continue to be witless sheep.

2. please do not drag the reformists into your speculative opinions and do not presume to speak on their behalf. the reformists have no vested interests on either side of this rumoured rift.

3. continue with your popcorn and soda while you enjoy the entertainment. stop making all sorts of baseless assumptions as they hold no value whatsover.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#300

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed May 01, 2013 3:54 pm

Bro Grayson,

Kindly understand one thing very clearly that the subject document signed by the 51st Dai can NEVER be made public especially in the present scenario where there is lot of infighting. I can only say that I have heard it from an insider who happens to be very close to both the camps. Now whether to believe it or not is ones own prerogative.

The recent news is that more then 8/10 marriages between members of the two camps is on the rocks, it is even rumoured that as many official divorces have taken place and the same is not made public. Once again I reiterate that Iam myself not very sure of the said developments hence I cannot confirm the same. Probably someone else could give more details on this issue.