Qutbi Bohras

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Qutbi Bohra

#481

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat May 25, 2013 5:54 pm

voice wrote: It is certain that Nass was never done by SMB until when he suffered a stroke in London ...
yes, nass was performed by syedna when he was in coma. then a tamasha was staged at raudat tahera when he was asked to read a prepared speech and at the crucial juncture, zaada moiz snatched the paper away from him and added his words declaring muffy as mansoos. later on, on a couple of occasions muffy was cleverly seated next to syedna to convey that he is the designated mansoos.

from the time that syedna went into a coma, up until today, syedna is still in a mental coma.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#482

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat May 25, 2013 6:22 pm

Bohra spring wrote:Wow this is really weird....mazoon and Mansoos related ....son, daughters, first cousins....keep the gene pool intact.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7146



Bohra spring
Posts: 1242
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

#483

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun May 26, 2013 3:43 am

Gmbhai...the amazement meant is directed to the gullible ..these family feuds are creating false hope....

What more evidence do abdes need that they are being taken for a major ride by the STS's family...

Abdes foolishly come n this site to defend and support them, they rally behind M...if for once they thought deeply they would open their minds to rational thinking that these triple Ms have nothing but their own wealth creation in their minds and they will preach whatever is convincible to poor believers. It shows how weak and mushy their brains are.

The Ms are least worried about the destiny of Abdes and more about loosing their livestock which is producing and laying golden eggs.

As I have stated before I am commenting on this topic as it is an example of how desperate the bohras are to seek human salvation...Qutbi or Muffy are both leaders into darkness and scam. The topic also exposes some intricate, secretive world of major scandals. If after all these abdes continue their blind fanaticism what a pity.



asad
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 am

#484

Unread post by asad » Sun May 26, 2013 6:58 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
voice wrote: It is certain that Nass was never done by SMB until when he suffered a stroke in London ...
yes, nass was performed by syedna when he was in coma. then a tamasha was staged at raudat tahera when he was asked to read a prepared speech and at the crucial juncture, zaada moiz snatched the paper away from him and added his words declaring muffy as mansoos. later on, on a couple of occasions muffy was cleverly seated next to syedna to convey that he is the designated mansoos.

from the time that syedna went into a coma, up until today, syedna is still in a mental coma.
best part is Qaid Johar and Malek Ul ashtar said immediately after the nass that in secret nass was done 4-5 years back and they both were the witness to it and its only made public now.



Maqbool
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

#485

Unread post by Maqbool » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:49 am

Quaid zohar and Shiat e Ali has written letter to Hindustan times on 22nd April but the paper has not apologies. now when they will take legal action.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#486

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:47 pm

qaid johar and ashtar can dare to say whatever bullshit they like, there is no one to refute their claims and the one who could, the 52nd, is himself in a coma.

as for threats from the h'zaadas to hindustan times. they cannot take any legal action because they is no way they can prove that what hindustan times wrote was baseless. ht has cleverly based its story by quoting this forum and website to show that there is enough speculation in the community. now the next thing that the zaads can do is to prove that this site is not legally representative of bohras, which again is well-nigh impossible. they cannot sue this site either because it is out of their reach in the west, where freedom of speech prevails.

so the zads can do zilch, zip, nada, zero, nothing about the article in ht. all they can do is pickle copies of it and eat it as achaar at their next ziyafat.



Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

#487

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:42 am

The hot news in discussion is :

DAWAT E HADIYAH'S IS DIVIDED IN TWO
Based on the recent Saify Mahal news, Estates of the Dawat E Hadiyah is being divided in two parts, one for Aqa moula and Second for Mazon Saheb Khozema Bhaisaheb.
Saify Mahal and Badri Mahal will be given to Khozema Bhai Saheb. The new Burhani Mahal (being bought from Cama family in 108-crores) will become the place for Aqa Moula and Shezadas in coming months. Badri Mahal is being renovated removing all offices to hand over to Mazoon Saheb in few months.

Why this is being done?
Reason is that the Late Sayedna Taher Safuddin Saheb had promised in writing to make Khozema Bhai Saheb the 53rd Daiul Mutlaq. Becuase of this written document, Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb is unable to do NUS to any one else. He was waiting for the early death of Khozema Saheb (cancer), but it appears that Khozema Saheb may survive longer than the Sayedna and further wait may not help any one. The power struggle was going on for the last many years and was becoming severe in the last few years. Both parties were ready for the show down but some how compromise formula was found out and both parties agreed to the solution in writing. The Vasiyat of Late Sayedna was bought over and sold in Crores of rupees.



Awakened woman
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:15 am

#488

Unread post by Awakened woman » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:54 am

And who are we in this whole drama unfolding? Mere puppets whose faith and fate is being auctioned, based on who is able to buy what. My heart goes out to all those people staying in dilapidated buildings in Mumbra, Nalasopara, Vasai and such suburbs who have no funds to even repair their houses or have a better place to live and here crores are transferring hands for power. No wonder, we are being kept busy in frivolous activities. Dont see, dont think,dont feel and dont act be the normal norm for us now.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#489

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:26 am

Hussain_KSA wrote:The new Burhani Mahal (being bought from Cama family in 108-crores) will become the place for Aqa Moula and Shezadas in coming months.
The said property mentioned, I think this property was purchased by SMB and already under development of Residential Project called “Satellite Towers” by a private builder / contractor.
Please correct if wrong !



murtaza2152
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:26 pm

#490

Unread post by murtaza2152 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:22 pm

Hussain_KSA wrote:The hot news in discussion is :

DAWAT E HADIYAH'S IS DIVIDED IN TWO
Based on the recent Saify Mahal news, Estates of the Dawat E Hadiyah is being divided in two parts, one for Aqa moula and Second for Mazon Saheb Khozema Bhaisaheb.
Saify Mahal and Badri Mahal will be given to Khozema Bhai Saheb. The new Burhani Mahal (being bought from Cama family in 108-crores) will become the place for Aqa Moula and Shezadas in coming months. Badri Mahal is being renovated removing all offices to hand over to Mazoon Saheb in few months.

Why this is being done?
Reason is that the Late Sayedna Taher Safuddin Saheb had promised in writing to make Khozema Bhai Saheb the 53rd Daiul Mutlaq. Becuase of this written document, Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb is unable to do NUS to any one else. He was waiting for the early death of Khozema Saheb (cancer), but it appears that Khozema Saheb may survive longer than the Sayedna and further wait may not help any one. The power struggle was going on for the last many years and was becoming severe in the last few years. Both parties were ready for the show down but some how compromise formula was found out and both parties agreed to the solution in writing. The Vasiyat of Late Sayedna was bought over and sold in Crores of rupees.

Hussain This type of crap was not expected from you !
Not done.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#491

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:43 pm

murtuza,

before you rush into judgement and start swinging and foaming at the mouth, let us wait and see how events unfold. what if brother Hussain's news are true, then shall we come and crap on you?

only fools rush in where angels fear to tread!



murtaza2152
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:26 pm

#492

Unread post by murtaza2152 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:12 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:murtuza,

before you rush into judgement and start swinging and foaming at the mouth, let us wait and see how events unfold. what if brother Hussain's news are true, then shall we come and crap on you?

only fools rush in where angels fear to tread!
Al Zulfiqar we ll see . Wait and watch haq will be the winner.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#493

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:13 am

murtaza2152 wrote: Wait and watch haq will be the winner.
Indeed ! Haq (truth) will be the winner ! It is there to see, how in lifetime of SMB from the most central figure to side figure SMB has become. How his children are parading him in front of self centered abdes who love Dai because he is their ticket to Jannat ! How their family is divided over money and power ! How clandestine and sinister kothar activities are !



mnoorani
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:05 am

#494

Unread post by mnoorani » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:58 am

Dai to haq che, Ye bolta Quran che
pan varakh se sihaii udhi gayee
Have to kora panna che.
Gardan gunaah se jhuki hui ,
Ye zameen na khuda che.
Pan dikrao ye baazi palti didhi
Have to ek zinda laash che.



murtaza2152
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:26 pm

#495

Unread post by murtaza2152 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:02 am

humanbeing wrote:
murtaza2152 wrote: Wait and watch haq will be the winner.
Indeed ! Haq (truth) will be the winner ! It is there to see, how in lifetime of SMB from the most central figure to side figure SMB has become. How his children are parading him in front of self centered abdes who love Dai because he is their ticket to Jannat ! How their family is divided over money and power ! How clandestine and sinister kothar activities are !

Hi HB I am following you from quite time long , how you used to ask questions before when u joined the forum like a confused bohra but u behaved in respectful manner in matter of Dai. But now your words are getting very bitter day by day you have totally changed taking the name of your dai as SMB . Shame shame on you.

For one moment i agree in all points u raise but you call our dai as SMB worst of you. Learn some respect for a 102 years old man just for humanity.



asad
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 am

#496

Unread post by asad » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:02 am

Murtuza how is calling dai as SMB disrespectful ? its just the abbreviation of his full name including Syedna.



Bohra spring
Posts: 1242
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

#497

Unread post by Bohra spring » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:08 am

Murtuza you response can be either you are related to Mansoos, hate Qutbudinn or is a extreme faithful. If by any chance the Nass is a sham where will you land ? Have asked Mansoos to comment on the scandal ? Maroon has yet to make any public statement of loyalty ?

Why do you thing the statements are not likely ..

I am disappointed that Qutbi after so much community support did not fight out his inheritance, he is happy to monetarise the outcome . He was an option to hope for reforms from within. He could have united the reformists who were looking for remaining with traditions. A half solution is better than none.

If we had to choose between only Mansoos and Mazoon I would give my vote to Mazoon.

Why? He tried to be liberal in the 80s , does not dream and come with silly fatwas like the Mansoos.
Last edited by Bohra spring on Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.



zinger
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#498

Unread post by zinger » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:13 am

Hi Murtuza,

i would probably give the benefit of doubt to HB.

Calling Aqa Mola as SMB is perhaps not derogatory or abusive. Like Asad said, its just an abbreviation of Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin.

Other people have called Mola by far worse names.

And to be fair to HB, if one does not have respect or love for someone, one can always chose to call them for some other name.

For instance, we have given some bad names to Mr. Insaf and late Mr. Engineer, again, because we dont respect them.

So, honestly, i have been following HB too for some time now and i dont think he meant anything bad. he has lost faith, thats all, so he chose to not call Aqa Mola as Mola like we do. simple really.



zinger
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#499

Unread post by zinger » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:16 am

humanbeing wrote:
murtaza2152 wrote: Wait and watch haq will be the winner.
Indeed ! Haq (truth) will be the winner ! It is there to see, how in lifetime of SMB from the most central figure to side figure SMB has become. How his children are parading him in front of self centered abdes who love Dai because he is their ticket to Jannat ! How their family is divided over money and power ! How clandestine and sinister kothar activities are !

I agree to what you say HB, Mola has become a side figure now. But let me assure you, people have turned to Muffadal Bhaisaab only because he is the mansoos. That does not diminish our love for Aqa Mola. Even today, you will have lakhs of people waiting for his deedar.

The family of our Mola has made him a side figure, but for us, he never will



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#500

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:27 am

zinger wrote: That does not diminish our love for Aqa Mola.
good! i hope you are continuing with your sajdas to him and sending him fakhir najwa's.

i am sure with your undying love, you have enlarged and framed photos of aqa mola with lions, wild buffalo, elephants etc that he has killed, and hung them all over your house.



think
Posts: 1766
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

#501

Unread post by think » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:13 am

less than 50 years back the dai was refered to as syedna. From where and how did we start calling him "aqa moula". He is neither my aqa nor my moula. In practical life I work hard for my living and am not dependant on him so I am definitely not his slave and he does not feed me or clothe me or give me a place to live. . secondly he did not create me. Allah created me, so allah is my moula.
It is about time we refered to the dai by his appropriate title of syedna.
secondly if you read the pages of history the syedna's sons were refered to as bhaisahebs AND NOT SHEZADA. These titles have been hyped up by the clergy to brainwash the bohra's into believing that syedna is a king and that his children are sons of king and queen. And again this is not so.
How can he be king without a country of his own. These titles are all worldly titles. For a man of Allah these titles mean nothing as after death he will neither be called king or aqa moula or his sons called shezada in heaven or hell. These titles are obscure to a religious leader who if he is a religious leader should be more concerned in life after death.
Let us put them in their proper position with all due respect by refering to the dai as syedna and his sons as bhaisahebs.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#502

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:41 am

murtaza2152 wrote: you have totally changed taking the name of your dai as SMB .
For one moment i agree in all points u raise but you call our dai as SMB worst of you. Learn some respect for a 102 years old man just for humanity.
Justification already explained by fellow members, I meant Sayedna Mohamed Burhanuddin (SMB)
zinger wrote: And to be fair to HB, if one does not have respect or love for someone, one can always chose to call them for some other name.
So, honestly, i have been following HB too for some time now and i dont think he meant anything bad. he has lost faith, thats all, so he chose to not call Aqa Mola as Mola like we do. simple really.
There is a difference between respect and love, I do respect SMB for his elder age and oratory skills. One can respect a person without love, but cannot love a person without respect.

About loosing faith.. !! You can say I have lost faith in SMB’s; Mojizas, claim to keeper of heaven, Intercessor to God, Ghaib-Na-Jaanar, Infallibility and other fantastic claims.

Above words may be sharp to your eyes, but I see SMB as a mortal human prone to errors, distraction, temptation, greed and other weaknesses which me or you can have.

I would not risk my faith on someone whose fallibility has been proven by commonsense, simple really !
zinger wrote: Mola has become a side figure now. But let me assure you, people have turned to Muffadal Bhaisaab only because he is the mansoos. That does not diminish our love for Aqa Mola. Even today, you will have lakhs of people waiting for his deedar. The family of our Mola has made him a side figure, but for us, he never will
Word “OUR” is quiet generic you have used. However I do not wish to comment on your personal feelings towards SMB. But generally speaking, if we true to conscience, bohras (as we see) are so brainwashed that they cannot fathom the reality of situation that is going on.

Tomorrow, if another Tom and Harry BS claims to be a Dai, bohra will turn to him, all bohras need is emotionally charged frenzied event to implant any set of beliefs in bohra minds.

The family of Aqa Mola has made him a side figure and going next bohras are turning to his family (Mansoos) as central figure of thier faith, isn’t it complex ! not simple really !



think
Posts: 1766
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

#503

Unread post by think » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:51 pm

how is the syedna my aqa moula. neither has he given me life when i was in my mothers womb, nor can he give me death if Allah wants me to live.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#504

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:59 pm

you are wrong! syedna visits each and every abde in his grave soon after he dies. he holds his hand and comforts him, and then personally leads him unto heaven.

smb and sts were there when imam hussain was martyred. haven't you heard the mansoos declaring in ashura vaez that hussain prayed for these both by name when he went into sajda and shimr started doing the baar ragda on the back of his neck?

don't you know that sts and smb were there when adam disobeyed allah and was thrown onto earth? in fact sts and smb were there even before this qa'enaat was created, they both precede all nabi's, imams, farishtas and jinns. in fact both their names are also in the quran. attend any sabak and they will show you.

you also cannot deny that mola was with you in your mother's womb just at the very moment when you were conceived. he is ghaib na maalik and knows all and everything. he is omnipotent and omnipresent, besides being omniscient. mansoos himself has very categorically claimed that there are millions of farishtas hovering around smb's sick bed, in a rough proportion of about 3 per abde/amte. they are reporting each and every slave's activities and proclivities, secret or not, to smb and smb dispatches one or two farishtas as required to aid any of his die-hard fans who call out to him with 'love' and send in fakhir najwas, accompanied by profuse sajdas.

if you belittle the exalted status of the 51st and 52nd, you do so at your own peril. you have been sufficiently warned of their powers. their mansoos is a ruthless and cold-blooded sharp-shooter who possesses many high powered rifles. be prepared for stray bullets piercing your flimsy glass windows. take cover and implement appropriate measures to protect your aged parents + innocent naunihalo ane tamara bairo.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#505

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:24 pm

he is omnipotent
I remember this excellent joke from the show "friends"

MONICA: Hey, Joey, what would you do if you were omnipotent?
JOEY: Probably kill myself!
MONICA: ..Excuse me?
JOEY: Hey, if Little Joey's dead, then I got no reason to live!
ROSS: Joey, uh- OMnipotent.
JOEY: You are? Ross, I'm sorry.. I had no idea, I thought it was like a theoretical question!!!

:mrgreen:



zinger
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#506

Unread post by zinger » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:46 am

Hi HB, its just that you have referred to yourself as an abde-syedna in earlier days, which is why i said you have lost faith. no other intention.

i dont find your words harsh. we all agree that Aqa Maula is mortal and hence, at some point of time, must have been prone to all the weaknesses that you and i face.

as for the our, i would have to disagree. im sure you have seen the pics and videos of Aqa Maulas 102nd saalgirah. you have seen the command he still has over the community, so yes, a very strong "OUR", "US" and "WE" :)

as for Bohras following anyone who claims to be Dai, i think you are waaaaaaaaayyyyy of target. you need to understand that we will not follow anyones instructions other than the ones issue by our Dai. You can raise the topic of Maazun claiming to be Dai, but for now, it is heresay only.

yes, i also agree that Muffaddal bhaisaab is gaining prominence, but that is only because he has been appointed as the next Dai. But, and i repeat once again, it in no way diminishes the respect, importance or love of our current Dai, Aqa Maula Burhannudin Saheb.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#507

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:18 am

zinger wrote:Hi HB, its just that you have referred to yourself as an abde-syedna in earlier days, which is why i said you have lost faith. no other intention.
No worries ! I lost trust in SMB and his management, but still believe in Bohra framework, its civic structure is excellent, if guided and executed by honest men of integrity bohra community can do wonders to its people and world at large.
zinger wrote:i dont find your words harsh. we all agree that Aqa Maula is mortal and hence, at some point of time, must have been prone to all the weaknesses that you and i face.
You can respect and love a fallible person, as per your personal attachments. But faith (Imaan) leave it only for Allah. Much simpler !
zinger wrote:as for the our, i would have to disagree. im sure you have seen the pics and videos of Aqa Maulas 102nd saalgirah. you have seen the command he still has over the community, so yes, a very strong "OUR", "US" and "WE" :)
Yes, I have seen an overwhelming SEA of people worshipping Aqa Maula in disguise of love and respect, by raising their hands and seeking ends to their wishes. I have been part of those crowds, I have heard the cries, and I can fairly say, take away the promise of effortless heaven, take away shortcut forgiveness of sin, takeaway the show and pomp, take away fake mojizas, then we will see true followers of faith and the leader !
zinger wrote:as for Bohras following anyone who claims to be Dai, i think you are waaaaaaaaayyyyy of target. you need to understand that we will not follow anyones instructions other than the ones issue by our Dai. You can raise the topic of Maazun claiming to be Dai, but for now, it is heresay only.
Bang on target dear ! bohras will follow anyone; If a ‘Risala-Shareef’ printed in fancy fonts and images are sent out from vazarat-us-saifiyaah-burhaniya-qudsaniya announcing Tom & Harry Bhaisaab to be the next DAI, bohra will get up, kiss the Risala-Shareef celebrate Fateh Mubin and run for the Thaal !

They can enforce the Risala Shareef by parading the helpless mute Dai on a Gaddi ( paalkhi) garner sympathy points, recite Shahdat-e-Hussain, stack up emotional frenzy and implant the announcement of Next Dai, lo and behold, a New Dai is accepted and worshipped like last one.
zinger wrote:yes, i also agree that Muffaddal bhaisaab is gaining prominence, but that is only because he has been appointed as the next Dai. But, and i repeat once again, it in no way diminishes the respect, importance or love of our current Dai, Aqa Maula Burhannudin Saheb.
Ameen !



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#508

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:12 am

zinger wrote:.... the respect, importance or love of our current Dai, Aqa Maula Burhannudin Saheb.
wow zzzinger! i am sure with your undying love, you have enlarged and framed photos of aqa mola with dead lions, wild buffalo, elephants etc. that he has brutally and cold-bloodedly killed, and hung them all over your house.

as for his 'importance', we must ask his ayyash and parasitic family why they have made him unimportant and redundant and put a blanket of secrecy over his news. mola gaya, baat gayi. khel khatam, paisa hajam, abhi mola more-la nahi rahe.



zinger
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#509

Unread post by zinger » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:43 am

@ HB

Lots of points i dont subscribe to, few that i do, but we are all entitled to our views and opinions

Lets just agree to disagree and move on.

P.S., please dont call me dear. i know you mean well, but makes me uncomfortable :)



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#510

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:44 am

Zinger
im sure you have seen the pics and videos of Aqa Maulas 102nd saalgirah. you have seen the command he still has over the community, so yes, a very strong "OUR", "US" and "WE" :)
Zinger
I am sure you must have seen the pictures of people who surround Hilter-Sadam Hussain-Pol Pot,Idi Amin. They had more ADORING (sic) crowd than Syedna. I hope you get the point....................