The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctrines

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
ghulam muhammed
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctrines

#1

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:27 am

The issue of doing away with Daiship is hotly debated and even the PDB is of the opinion that the same should not be dispensed with as it clashes with bohra doctrines. Many average e-jamat bohras as well as PDB members on a personal level are fed up with the very system and doctrine and want a drastic change without changing the due process. Hence let us debate the issue in a manner in which bohra tenets are not affected but at the same time the much needed revamp takes place. The only way is to expose the flaws vehemently and educate the masses and let them then decide for themselves.

The post of a Dai is very fundamental for bohras as they believe that the community always needs a religious and spiritual guide. In a way they are right in their basics as in every sphere of life one always needs a guide, a teacher, a rehber, there is a well known saying “Bin guru gyan nahi”. One needs a teacher in school and colleges as in the absence of which one cannot graduate just by reading the elementary books which are freely available off the shelf in many bookstores. One needs to follow the due process of getting enrolled in a recognised school/college and take lessons from an appointed teacher. The same goes well with religion, if Allah (swt) wanted to give His message directly to his creation then it was no difficult task for Him as He can do EVERYTHING as NOTHING is impossible for Him. He could have even gathered His subjects on a mountain top and given His message directly without using a Humanbeing. Is ANYTHING ever impossible for Him ?? Yet He chose to pass on His message through His Messengers as He wanted to create a system and a proper channel. Hence let us not debate on the issue of the necessity of having a spiritual guide but rather concentrate on the guide himself.

It is not wrong to have a leader but it is very wrong to have a wrong and corrupt leader. In worldly matters one weighs each and every pros and cons when it comes to chosing a teacher, a professor or even a spouse but why are people lethargic and indifferent when it comes to chosing a spiritual guide ??? Why doesn’t he/she realise the importance of this guide as he plays the most crucial role in shaping his/her Aakherat ?? It means that people don’t give importance to Aakherat and their tall claims of being answerable to Allah (swt) on the day of judgement are nothing but mere lip service.

As per bohra doctrines the Dai needs to be appointed by a hidden Imam but it seems that nowadays he is more “Self appointed”. How then could one explain the nuss of the 52nd Dai which was conferred on him almost 25 years before the death of 51st Dai ? Did the hidden Imam appoint him so well in advance ?? If so, then why ? Is there any such precedent in bohra history ? Was the due process of having neutral witnesses followed in case of the 53rd Nass ? Why were mazun and Mukasir not present as witnesses ? (Members are free to contradict this aspect with sound arguments).

Does the 51st, 52nd and 53rd Dai fulfil the criteria as required as per the bohra literatures ? After reading Daimul Islam and other bohra literatures one can easily conclude that they act totally contrary to what is required of them. They contravene every possible tenet as prescribed in bohra theology.

Their greed, lust for power and the sole focus on themselves thereby bypassing the true torchbearers of Islam and reducing boharaism to a cult is very well documented on this forum and elsewhere.

As per Bohra doctrines :-
Does any bohra doctrine lay stress on the importance of zaadas and zaadis ?
Does it permit their interference in dawat matters ?
Does it allow qadambosi of the so called royals ?
Does it allow the Dai’s extended family to live on money extorted from the subjects ?
Does it give powers to the Dai to sanctify a Masjid after extorting tonnes of money from his subjects ?
Does it allow the Dai to act as a “Kafan Chor” wherein he has the power to give permission for a burial only after extorting huge sums of money from the family of the deceased ?
Does any bohra doctrine permit him to visit his followers residence ONLY after he gets salams running into lacs and crores ?
Does any bohra doctrine prohibit the Dai from giving accounts of the monies received in various forms and titles ?
The list is endless.

Hence if the Dai fails to deliver in almost every aspect then is it possible that he could have been appointed by an Imam who is from the progeny of Ahle Bayt ? The Ahle Bayts are known for their impeccable character and are the true torchbearers of Islam and to perceive that someone from the lineage of Mola Ali (a.s.) could appoint persons of such questionable character not only amounts to insulting the Imam but even his forefathers right upto Mola Ali (a.s.). How can bohras not get this basic fact right ? How can they follow someone who leads them astray in the name of Imam ? How can they claim to love Panjatan Pak (a.s.) and then believe that an Imam from their progeny could ever hand over the reigns of dawat to people of highly questionable characters ?

Hence even if we don’t negate the necessity of a hidden Imam then too is it ever possible that an Imam could allow the religion of his forefathers to be interpreted by someone who preaches shirk, unislamic acts and hatred for the Ummah ??

Its high time that bohras start to ponder over these basic fundamentals and chose a righteous leader who truly follows and preaches Islam as prescribed by Rasul Allah (s.a.w.). Its high time that bohras start looking outside their tiny pond and look at Allah’s religion from its true perspectives and not get swayed away with the pomp and glitter surrounding their leader.

Humsafar
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#2

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:01 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:Its high time that bohras start to ponder over these basic fundamentals and chose a righteous leader....
I'm in general agreement with you, but not with your conclusion quoted above. You too like Bohra spring and his bandwagon are falling into the trap of giving too much importance to the Dai, the trap which Sayedna Taher Saifuddin created. Dais were never the be-all and end-all of Bohra universe. Leave the Dai alone to commune with the hidden Imam. He is not important. We reformists must work to sideline him and the illegitimate power and status he and his family have arrogated to themselves. "Choosing a Dai" is a pointless, intractable and wasteful exercise. Let's talk about how we can marginalise him, cut him down to size rather rather than "choose" him as if he matters and place him on a pedestal.

anajmi
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:28 pm

I kind of agree with Humsafar over here. The Dai should be chosen not so much as a democratically elected "President" with unlimited power, but should be chosen as an employee who can be fired when he steps out of bound!!

Humsafar
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#4

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:57 pm

Again, to choose him and fire him is go give him too much importance. The Dai should not and does not matter that much.

anajmi
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:35 pm

Sorry, but he is supposed to be the Dai who takes care of your religious needs (in a progressive model). If you think that is not an important position, then progressive or not, you are wrong.

Humsafar
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#6

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:07 pm

Religious needs at jamat level will be taken care of by the amil. He can be hired and fired - that's where the real authority of people will lie. As a head of these amils, the Dai will be at the mercy of the people anyway. So let the Dai be, with his hidden Imam. This whole project of electing him is to get into the doctrinal murky waters. There is not need get your feet dirty. From the reform point of view, people can be persuaded to limit the role and power of Dai. The talk of electing him is will get you only handful of radicals like Bohra spring. Even so, I insist that all this election business is so unnecessary. It is better to focus on what matters and what is feasible.

SAJJAD
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#7

Unread post by SAJJAD » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 pm

The concept of hidden imam (Tayyab) is just a figment of an imagination dished out to the bohri community by the bohri clergies. Even in the court of law, Taher admitted that imam is an imagination and a firytale. If there was indeed a true imam, he would have not appointed the last two corrupt dias.

If one looks at the current mission of Mulla Burhanuddin and his mafia family, it’s plain to see that it’s all about robbing the community. Robbing not just our money, but our brains, determination, and something we will never get back – THE TIME.
The present scenario of our community evolves with un-Islamic rituals and dogmas. The current dia and his h**** zadas duties are as follows:
Lavish Ziyafat, bethak and salam, bow down and feet kissing,nikah ceremony for rich people, frequent trip to raudat tahera temple, business expo,inauguration of markaz,masjid or madrasa with pet name either burhania or saifia, numerous other money making schemes and list goes on.

I think most would agree that a true dia’s duties are the following – living a life of moderation -not eating out of a golden plate out of their community's money or requiring to live every moment of life in lavishness, helping the less fortunate members of our community -When has Burhanuddin ever thought of contributing to needy Bohras or any needy people in general?, serving as a role model to the community , knowledgeable in our Islamic beliefs and values - When will Burhanuddin ever give a speech without reading line by line from books written in 30 point font?, does not use position to abuse people , approachable in the sense that anyone can approach the dia without having to kiss a body part, pay salaam, or walk up with expensive gifts , and most importantly not a acting like a Yazid . Remember folks, Imam Hussein died to stop people like Yazid from “polluting” Islam. Unfortunately, the present dia has no regard for this principle. Do you think Burhanuddin is going to change for the better? For over 110 years the same trends have continued and I certainly don’t see them “reforming” themselves anytime soon. I suggest and feel that we should get rid of present dia and dawat(ru). If we can have a dia that embodies and carries out the respective duties listed above, then I support having a dia with dawat(ru).

For the past ten years or so Burhanuddin has invented matam to be carried out on every day and on every occasion. Before, matam was done only during the month of Muharram. My point is that these b******s all of a sudden one day and decided to implement matam as a centerpoint of our ideology. Why? Obviously, the dia does it for personal gain and amassment of great fortunes. To top it off, Imam Hussain’s bayan occurs everyday to ensure we beat our chests. As I’ve said before, the Kothar uses same stereo type lectures to attack our emotions putting us in our most vulnerable state and allowing them to control us in ways we never thought possible. As a result of their forced control, families have split, best friends turning into enemies, and more hatred as filled our hearts and minds — All because one does not give full allegiance to the dia. And what’s worse, the kothar continuously preaches about alienating and cutting off all ties with anyone who questions the actions of the dia or kothar. How can we be happy with this type of dia and dawat?

The function of Burhanuddin and his mafia h**** zadaas and their administration should be as simple and pious dia and not dictators. I don’t think the dia’s current role as dictator will progress anytime soon to a symbolic and spiritual “dai-like” figure. This is because the present regime and his family are infatuated with their thirst for more money and engage in corrupt practices along the way. This empire’s future successor was illegally selected using the same father-to-son transfer of power system we’ve seen take place for more than 110 years.

I think the way the situation is going; there is no need for a dii or dawat(ru). As you can see very clearly for the past 110 years, Taher and Burhanuddin have converted our Islamic beliefs into a cult-like organization with complete control demanding full allegiance and isolation from non-Bohri believers. In addition, they impose unnecessary and heavy taxes to members of the community and continually innovate schemes to expand their coffers even more. Innovations such as worshipping, kissing, wadhawani rasam, raza, and pampering obviously displays the level the dia has made us all succumb to. Look at pictures on various kothar websites and one can plainly see what I am talking about. All these rituals benefits kothar and it has made their empire into a multi-billion dollar business.

The irony is that you don’t learn anything Islamic in kothar’s lackluster lectures. Every waaz or sabak is the same bullshit our ears have grown accustomed to. To sum it up, it’s all about praising Burhanuddin and chanting every five minutes, altogether, “ta qayamat tak ghanoo jivo”, which is an impossible and brainless prayer. As many of you may agree in your hearts, but feel afraid to speak up due to potential repercussions, it’s time for Burhanuddin and his bandwagon to set sail.

The kothar’s use of “gripping our emotions” is a clever strategy employed to keep membership levels from declining. They sell Imam Hussein and Ahlul-Bait and made it a huge business by using Imam Hussein’s character and imposing poorjosh matam as a way to access our emotions. This scheme is their most successful one and has allowed them to make a lot of money. Imam Hussein and His Ahlul-Bait scarified themselves for saving Islam, but these idiots are making fortunes and manipulating our minds in the name of Imam Hussein.

The present old man still hasn’t retired even at his death bed. Instead, they still display him all around as a showcase just to make more dough. he wanders all over the world doing the same things as mentioned before. The last so called birthday – bash of Burhanuddin was a prime example of waste of millions of dollars, time and energy for months with lots of pomps and fanfare which was absolutely unnecessary. This act of worship and bowing down has certainly polluted our religion. Now is the time to abolish all of this nonsense and do something about it rather than act like a herd of sheep. Speak up and protest against them! Enough is enough. How long will we allow Burhanuddin to strip us of our rights and passion for a community that is based upon “original” Islamic principles, and not a reinvention of Islam like the kothar is engaging in?

Insha’Allah, I strongly believe a brighter future will lay ahead of us without a dia or dawat(ru).

Humsafar
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#8

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:59 pm

Wow, SAJJAD that's one hell of a post - summarising everything that's wrong with the Dai and Dawat. Most Bohras will agree with your analysis but not with your solution. So just a word of caution: do not throw the baby with the bathwater.

ghulam muhammed
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#9

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:18 pm

Humsafar wrote:You too like Bohra spring and his bandwagon are falling into the trap of giving too much importance to the Dai
Its rather the contrary..... I have tried to show that we are unnecessarily giving importance to the Dai and that too way above the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and Panjatan Pak (a.s.). BTW To make them realise that undue importance is given to the Dai we have to first show them the kind of importance they give !

badrijanab
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#10

Unread post by badrijanab » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:26 pm

Ghulam Mohammed -
Its high time that bohras start to ponder over these basic fundamentals and chose a righteous leader who truly follows and preaches Islam as prescribed by Rasul Allah (s.a.w.).
1. Electing leaders in contrary to Sunnat of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w.
2. Should masses be intelligent to correctly elect their leader then they would not have required leader at first place.
3. If people elect/throws out leader then - 1/2/3 are mohtaaz of people not Allah.

Sajjad -
The concept of hidden imam (Tayyab) is just a figment of an imagination dished out to the bohri community by the bohri clergies. Even in the court of law, Taher admitted that imam is an imagination and a firytale. If there was indeed a true imam, he would have not appointed the last two corrupt dias
1. By the same token hidden jibraeel, hidden Allah, hidden heaven/hell all are just a figment of an imagination!
2. Taher also admit that 1/2/3 have usurped right of Mola Ali a.s. so if you treat Taher as truthful then accept his other contention as well.
3. Fatimi Imam has not appointed 51, 52 & 53 same like Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. has not appointed 1, 2, & 3. But still all the four parties exist!

SAJJAD
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#11

Unread post by SAJJAD » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:42 pm

Humsafar wrote:

"Wow, SAJJAD that's one hell of a post - summarising everything that's wrong with the Dai and Dawat. Most Bohras will agree with your analysis but not with your solution. So just a word of caution: do not throw the baby with the bathwater."

I think WE HAVE TO NOW :D

Kaka Akela
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#12

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:46 pm

Bros: GM. Humsafar, aNajmim Sajjad:

All this discussion about electing or not electing the Dai is useless and meaningless because in the basic tenets of our religion it is the Imam who appoints them.
The simple thing that needs to be done is go back to the Misaq prior to the 51 dai. Current Misaq is most oppressive and suffocating all the liberties and previleges of the community. The translation of this Misaq should be widely circulated to all the Muslim countries also to the UN human rights organization and expose its slavery imposed on all the community members. I have heard myself from a sh***da that we can impose or force anything on you if you are in Misaq.

When this Misaq is brought back to the original then everything will fall in its place. Three or four times Misaq in a year is not cleanse our souls of viruses or bugs but to reinforce its conditions and to keep reminding us that you are our bonded slaves.

So it is Misaq, Misaq and Misaq that is the root of all evils in our community

Humsafar
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#13

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:00 am

Kaka Akela,
Thank you for putting some sense here, This "election of Dai" business is getting out of hand.

think
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#14

Unread post by think » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:11 pm

The first order of the day should be to pour some sense into the bohri's by way of exposing the truth. This is an up hill battle because of the extreme brainwashing by the two dai's. The first ,second and now even the young ones of the third generation are into the moula, moula, sub moula kare ga thinking.

Humsafar
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#15

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:57 pm

think wrote:The first order of the day should be to pour some sense into the bohri's by way of exposing the truth. This is an up hill battle because of the extreme brainwashing by the two dai's. The first ,second and now even the young ones of the third generation are into the moula, moula, sub moula kare ga thinking.
Agreed, but the question is how.

Bohra spring
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Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#16

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:12 pm

This is an interesting debate.......I wish for a while humsafar if he is not contributing new arguments and try not taking potshots at me, discuss the context and not the person.

Which pdb or previous abdes are getting confused, Anyway That is a a very weak reason to retain a flawed leadership model....

Gm excellent commentary by the way...

As a question ...if diai is ignored and suggestion is to let the theory of Imam communication be retained...who holds real power to make decisions. Amils or ceremonial Diai ?

If some of you seem to doubt the relevance of Diai or Imam but want to carry it on as a tradition, is that not going to weaken the foundation of the faith...what else will we then do as a ceremonial need, eg hajj, association with Muslims , compromises with Sunni , follow the law, where will these double standards end...we do not want to start creating a culture of deceit and parallel lives

Kaka Akela
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: The Dai & Hidden Imam: Lets Look At It Thru Bohra Doctri

#17

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:38 pm

people get through your head that Dai is central and imam appointed Dai is central to the Dawoodi Bohra faith. If you don't believe this or if you want to do away with Dai or you want to elect a Dai you don't belong on this Forum and need to find and join a different religion.

Having said that, what we say here or propose here is not going to make an iota of difference in the belief or behavior of the 1,000,000 Dawoodi Bohras, as the number of Bohras that come to this site is probably 0.0001%, and our voice is like," Naqqar khanay me tooti ki awaz".

What we need to do is, find a way to reach out to masses, via full page Ads in popular newspapers or present our case via Radio broadcasts thru islamic channels or any other popular media that Dawoodi Bohras utilize. otherwise you can pound on your keyboards on this Forum for a million years and will not get any results.

Concrete actions need to be taken by translating Misaq in English and Arabic, Urdu, and submitting to India's Supreme court for running a slave organization under the Indian Constitution, submit all the atrocities and money demands and subjugation of masses to various Human Rights organizations in India and abroad. There were two very powerful commissions appointed by the Indian Government but their findings were ignored and swept under the rug by the religious hierarchy as there was no follow-up after the findings, in other words there were no teeth in the comissions (toothless tigers), the Comissions were not given powers to see that compliance was done.

We can not wait for people to die and things to work out on their own, that will never happen. We must take the first step to begin the journey of a 1000 miles and soon. Religious leaders thrive on ignorance and fear of the common people and that is what is happening in our community.