How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

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Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#31

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:11 pm

As2152-

I feel bad for you. And it's no fault of your own. Your logic is ancient, foolish, wrong, and reeks of absolute stupidity. Just because you cannot explain something, you turn to the explanation that god has created it, your argument is digging you into an infinitely deep hole. When the Greeks theorized(I think it was the Greeks) the atom, it included no electrons or protons. It took very smart mathematicians and scientists to find this out. That goes for quarks too. And you know what, maybe a few years down the line, they will discover the quarks are made of even smaller portions. Then what will you argument be? That there is nothing after these new particles, and that the explanation is god?

All you use god for is an explanation of that which you cannot understand. You don't understand the research that scientists have done or are doing; understandable, as it is very complex; but since you cannot understand this, you turn to god to explain it. That is not the correct way to come to logical conclusions.

And once again, you list benefits of religion, but as I have tried to hammer into your head a few times already, the BAD EASILY OUTWEIGHS THE GOOD. I don't want to be a part of a community that damns 99.99 percent of people to some hell. I don't want to be part of a community that doesn't even teach all its member the haqiqat-- truths-- of the religion. I don't want to be part of a community lead by liars, thieves, swine, and megalomaniacs.

If that is what you need to develop a proper social life and feel secure about yourself, then there is nothing anyone can do to help you. Keep getting raped of your money and property, by all means. Just realize that the people you worship don't give a damn about you, only the wealth that you can bring them.

"God is Dead"

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#32

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:32 pm

kaka akela,

with all due respect, i find some of your statements quite disappointing and surprising. if you have heard stories from your father and his father before him about the simplicity of our faith in days of yore, then you must have also seen and heard that there was no dress code before the 52nd imposing it strictly on his followers so that dawat na dushmano could be easily identified. in the 60's and 70's, i have personally seen bohra men attending vaez wearing kurta, sherwani, fur caps, topi's and some even proudly wearing nehru topis (the white caps worn by congress members) as there were some prominent bohras who held positions in local and state politics and were members of the congress party. as a youth, i often attended majlises wearing a pant and shirt, with the shirt pulled out with either a bohra topi and on some occasions when I had to rush to someone's sadakallah, even with a rumaal tied over my head.

the requirement was to dress modestly. as long as that requirement was met, no one had any objection. yes, all adult women came to masjid in khais or burkha. young girls and unmarried girls came in salwar kameez with their heads covered with dupatta. to brand the reformists as unislamic and non-bohra just because they refuse to wear ridhas outside the masjid, is not only unfair but quite narrow-minded and parochial. in fact, statements like yours are precisely what the abdesyedna lobby wants to hear, as it re-inforces their mindless slavery agenda and virulent anti-propaganda. why should the reformists compromise on their independence by 'preparing' or 'appearing to be ready' to join the mainstream? in fact its the other way around. its the evil kothar which wants to extend cleverly disguised olive branches to the udaipuri reformists so that they can swallow the properties in the hands of the reformist jamaat. in this, the rascals have succeeded to some extent as they have made made individual overtures to reformists and by incentives of money, titles and offering them influential roles in the abde jamaats, lured quite a few back into their fold.

the fight for reform is not based around the dress code or appearing to be devout followers of the dai and his corrupt establishment. it is centred around regaining the independence of jamaats and accountability. by emphasising on how rag-tag and non-conformist the reformists look compared to the army of obedient and slavish abdes in std's and ridha's, is displaying profound ignorance of the reformist cause and distilling it down to such trivial details which are bear no consequence to adherence to our deen.

shapur
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:35 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#33

Unread post by shapur » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:22 pm

Nietzsche wrote :
Your listed benefits of religion are all things that can be accomplished without the need of any type of "God" or some false "Book of God". Religion was a useful tool for people before humans investigated science and found rational answers to everyday questions. Religion is shaped by a culture, all the stories in the Quran and Bible, while beautifully written, were merely used to understand things which people were uncertain about.
Boss, you seem to be the on the farthest end of the spectrum, actually out of it, and into the circle of the salman rushdies who, I would say, is not a "rotten apple" but rather a hollow apple. Only the outer skin and no magaz inside. You are of the types who cannot and will not believe a thing until and unless you see it and know it however stupid your end-conclusion. If I tell you- " boss, you know what, this small bell-pin in my hand just came out of nowhere, just materialised into my palm out of nowhere", you will call me stupid and say I m pulling a fast one on you and that the pin had a manufacturer and then a seller from whom I had bought it. No amount of cajoling will make you believe my story on the small bell- pin. But when we talk about the coming into being and into existence of this massive universe with its planets and celestial bodies, the Earth and the creatures within, the plants and the seas and the human beings,the complex structure of the human body of which your " intelligent" man would not have discovered even 1%, you will not believe that all this had a manufacturer !!!! Because you dont know because you cant see him !! So you will conclude as an " intellectual" that theres no creator however illogical and stupid your conclusion considering the sheer magnitude of the creation compared to the pin !! As bhai Akela put it, you athiests are nuts- persons to be pitied at your absolute poverty of logic and reason.
And mind you, all that "science" and "technology" computers and internet, communication, the nuclear theories, bla bla bla were all very much there and existing from the time of Adam itself ! Your dumb and moron " scientists" and " mathematicians" are only DISCOVERING these magics of creation one by one and the bums have taken this long for it- several hundred years !!! Who knows how much longer they will take to discover the millions of other secrets of the wonderful, praiseworthy creator. Nothing whatsoever has changed in the Creator's pristine creation from the time it was created. The same laws, the same bodies and the same beings exist till today. The sun still rises from the east, the earth still spins on its axis 365 days a year, the seasons still change at the same parts of the year, the plant kingdom is still green,the human beings and the animals still look the same. So what does the inconsequential, minisicule entity that is man , mean by saying that the world has "changed " mankind has "advanced", theres " development" all over, etc etc. The stupid guy cant even figure out how each one of him got a different face and a different fingerprint. millions and millions of faces and fingerprints - all different from each other, imagine !!! Tell your SCIENTIST to create a fly, a drop of blood, a natural living cell. Tell him to predict where and when the Earth will quiver, and to stop a tsunami. Boss, your hair will wear thinking of all this. So NEVER go around the world with swagger and never think yourself to be the master. There is no such thing called as "religion". You talk of it as if its some product which is displayed and can be picked up or discarded from a supermarket shelf. The right word is "TRUTH". The "TRUTH" of the creator. The omnipotent. The Omniscient. He exists and has not created all this and taken retirement. He and His word is THE TRUTH of this world and the meaning of our very life.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#34

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:37 pm

Boy, I'm having a field day today!

Remember that the burden of proof lies on the persons making the claim

Your first error is associating me with one Salman Rushdie. I know very little about him, but I'll have you know that I don't aim to insult people of different religious, neither do I aim to viciously attack any certain belief, unless it causes harm to others, of course, which I hope you'll find wholly reasonable.

The most vexatious claim is the one you make about:

"all that "science" and "technology" computers and internet, communication, the nuclear theories, bla bla bla were all very much there and existing from the time of Adam itself"

This is where the burden of proof comes in. I have provided to you an argument constructed with no assumptions, solely facts. Your rebuttal contains some big statements. I want to you to prove, using facts, please, not Quranic ayats, that what you said is the undeniable truth. Heck, even give me enough evidence to have it considered a valid theory.

Next, concerning the following:

"Nothing whatsoever has changed in the Creator's pristine creation from the time it was created"

That statement, and the arguments that follow, are just totally wrong. I can explain some examples, but I'd rather save my time. I will let you do your own research on how "perfect" and "unchanging" the universe really is. I am not a scientist, nor am I extraordinarily intelligent, so please, take it from someone who is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DECAorZYErk
If there was a perfect god, why would his creation require anything imperfect?
We move on to the next disturbing argument you make:

"The stupid guy cant even figure out how each one of him got a different face and a different fingerprint. millions and millions of faces and fingerprints - all different from each other, imagine !!! Tell your SCIENTIST to create a fly, a drop of blood, a natural living cell."

This one is, to be frank, the cream of the crop. On the "faces and fingerprints" I present to you an interesting theory produced by one Charles Darwin : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

And on the "create a fly, drop of blood", I'll have you know that a living cell has already been created, actually for nearly three years now. While it isn't technically a real creation of life, it is very close, and I guarantee you that it will be done within a few years. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127010591

You might belittle me and say that all I have done is copy and pasted google searches. This is the truth, but the fact is the "stupid scientists" who have come up with these projects and theories have put in years and years of work. They have not just come up with some God to explain that which they do not understand. I'm not going to come here and type out some random crap like you have up there. I have fulfilled many of your demands for a logical, sensible argument.

I really want the same from you, Mr Shapur.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#35

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:47 pm

Oh, one more thing. Concerning you tsunami, why would a merciful God even allow millions to be killed by tsunamis? Come on, he's a perfect ruler, nothing changes according to your claim. Hmm... why is there poverty and war, if God is so caring and great? Why does he allow, what, a rape every few minutes in india, why does he let some people (most of whom couldn't care less about religion) be hugely rich, while the people who follow his "commands" live in rampant poverty?

Just another thought.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#36

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:28 pm

The debate is getting diverted from Bohraism to Aetheism, kindly start a new thread for the same so that members can focus on the issues which come under the subject as mentioned on the thread.

Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#37

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:38 pm

Br Nietzsche,,
I agree with GM Saab, don't get me wrong.. the discussion you've started is very intresserting, but it has already been discussed here in length..
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4579
Just start a new thread if you guys still want to discuss it :wink:

Humsafar
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#38

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:53 pm

Conscíous wrote:Br Nietzsche,,
I agree with GM Saab, don't get me wrong.. the discussion you've started is very intresserting, but it has already been discussed here in length..
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4579
Just start a new thread if you guys still want to discuss it :wink:
Thank you GM, Conscious. Please take this religion vs. atheism debate to the link Conscious has given above. My comments there is all I want to say on the subject. :D
Leave this thread for the topic it started with.
Thank you.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#39

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:27 pm

Fair enough. My apologies for drifting off topic.

In response to the actual subject, I think the best thing that can be done, considering the power of the kothar system, is to raise awareness and specifically target the younger people. Since they are taught more rationally in schools these days, if sense can be extended to them, then more questions concerning the kothar's activities are bound to pop up. As al Zulfiqar sir has said, there has been sweeping changes since the 70s, and if the progressives can spread awareness more effectively, there is no reason why the next generation can bring things back to earth. As for the current bohras, you've all seen how fanatic a lot of them are. Perhaps it would be better to let them wither away, instead targeting the population that is becoming more important to the kothar in the coming decades.

Kaka Akela
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#40

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:58 am

Bro AZ:
Sorry for not being clear in my previous post. I even remember wearing black sherwani and black topi in the days of Moharrum untill I was in late teens or early twenties. And here I am not promoting or supporting the Kothar imposed clothing standards or them making dadhi a faraz while it is a sunnat in Rasulullah's shariat. What I meant to say, that the belts wearing in pants in India are not necessarily from Halal zabihat and should be taken out, similarly the inner leather linings of the fur caps also may not be from halal zabihat leather, or the person I saw wearing a suit without a tie may not be paak for namaz even if it was freshly dry-cleaned because the substance used for dry-cleaning contains alcohol. As far as women's clothing is concerned, this has to do with the 2nd daim of taharat and nothing to do with the kothar's diktat. I saw some women wearing low on the hip sari with a mini blouse, she looked sexy enough for a pope to break his vow of celibacy. Masjid is not the place for such distraction before, during, or after listening to the sermon and praying namaaz.
if PDBs entertain any ideas of re-joining the DBS when their objectives of corruption and transparency are met then they have to start closing the gap otherwise they make it difficult on themselves.
Like I said earlier, I am an old man with 4 kids who are married and have children, spouses, in-laws and I have my own relatives and my wife's relatives (she has passed away), so it is a very large and extended family and if I wish to break away from the DBs and become a Humanist, I will be mighty lonesome in the world, though I have entertained the thought many a times in my mind.
I support the demands of PDBs totally and I do my best not to submit to their demands and tyrannies.

Mkenya
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#41

Unread post by Mkenya » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:28 pm

To the many people who responded and continue to respond to this topic in the forum, I say Jazakallahu Kheir. While composing my story a nagging thought kept tugging at my heart as to what responses it would elicit. True to form
they went into tangents, diversions were born, worn out arguments were resurrected, meaningless debates ensued, etc. Some contributions were so disjointed that I had difficulty in understanding what was being said. Only a couple of responses were noteworthy, the below-mentioned by Hamsafar was the only one that itemized achievements by Progressives.

All reformists Jamaats in India, the UK, Canada, USA are working exactly the way we want the whole community to work:
we as a community own our properties and assets (it is not wakfed to Dai);
we hold regular elections to elect jamaat officials to run the affairs of the community;
there is complete accountability and transparency in our financial dealings;
any member has the right to ask for accounts, and the Jamaat has the obligation to provide it
we run schools and clinics and charities and social welfare schemes with funds coming from members
we do not live in constant fear of Raza and Baraat

My request is for people to re-read the last couple of paragraphs in my story. I anticipated concrete suggestions as to what we can do. For example, no one came up with proposals about charitable and humanitarian projects we could initiate. I expected forum participants to think about needs in their 'Watans', undertake research to seek out worthy causes, formulate policy and initiate fund-raising and so on. There are poor, sick, the elderly, the disabled, widows, orphans everywhere who need help.

A very apt 'Doha' by Kabir sums up my feelings.

Kabir Maala Kaath Kee, Kahi Samjhave Tohi
Man Na Firave Aapna, Kaha Firave Mohi

Translation
Kabir, the rosary made of wooden beads educates
If you do not rotate your mind, then to what end you rotate.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#42

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:10 pm

Mkenya wrote: I anticipated concrete suggestions as to what we can do. For example, no one came up with proposals about charitable and humanitarian projects we could initiate. I expected forum participants to think about needs in their 'Watans', undertake research to seek out worthy causes, formulate policy and initiate fund-raising and so on. There are poor, sick, the elderly, the disabled, widows, orphans everywhere who need help.
brother mkenya,

the problem with people who come to this forum and only cursorily skim the surface is that they do not understand that: 1. not all who come to this forum are openly reformist, 2. the reformist's numbers are very small, 3. the few reformist jamaats spread out all over the world are already undertaking most of the activities on your wish list, but as individual jamaats, not as one single united pdb world body, 5. most of the reform minded bohras who are members here are already involved in seeking out and helping in worthy causes, such as education, poor bohras being provided monthly rations or jobs etc. there is a group on this forum which has been actively providing help to poor bohras in various cities in india.

we are all doing whatever we can, but we do not have the collective clout and money power of the kothar. there is only that much of our largesse to go around. it is therefore unfair and highly unrealistic for someone to expect that we can undertake large scale charitable projects with such limited means. are you aware that we are running a registered charity in north america, with active chapters in both usa and canada, called 'shukre ilahi', which is taking care of the college and university education of over 350 poor but bright bohra kids in india and pakistan? imagine taking on their responsibility for the entire duration of their post-secondary studies of 3-4 years? we do not discriminate between abde or reformist bohras. the people behind this charity are a mix of reformists and progressive minded (but registered ejmaat card carrying) bohras. in fact every year at our annual fund-raising dinner event, we have almost 50% ejamaat card bohras attending and donating funds.

no one disagrees with the fact that there are thousands of poor and deprived bohras all over the world, but please do not have such high expectations that we can take care of all of them in every way. in fact, admin has taken the initiative to start a separate thread here for bohras seeking help who write here instead of to the kothar, from where they will get nothing.

please do not assume that we are all sitting around behind our computers only venting and pouring scorn on the kothar all the time and have nothing better to do, instead join in and seek contacts with members. you will be pleasantly surprised with the sterling work people are doing.

Mkenya
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#43

Unread post by Mkenya » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:47 pm

Brother Al Zulfikar,

Never have I assumed that you are all sitting behind computers…..etc.
I also know that there are countless people, Reformists and E-card
holders who do exemplary charitable work. A cursory scroll through
the forums gives an impression that knocking Kothar is the
only game in town. Now that you have informed me and others I hope
we can pull the topic back on track and focus on its intended purpose.
I really appreciate your input.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1354
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#44

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:55 pm

Mkenya wrote: I also know that there are countless people, Reformists and E-card
holders who do exemplary charitable work. A cursory scroll through
the forums gives an impression that knocking Kothar is the
only game in town.
Mkenya I am not sure how doing charitable work will stop Kothar's juggernaut ..can you explain a bit more

comment regarding Knocking Kothar to make them accountable is a separate issue from ensuring the society functions and is seprate from ensuring the society is progressing in the right direction. Communities are quite complex machinery...yes we have squeeky wheels but some are ok, some are misaligned needs abit of knock and some need replacements. Replacing one part or fixing one wheel does not mean the job is done. The rebellion has focused for so long fixing a few wheels that in 50 years some other parts have worn and we need a bigger overhaul than envisaged. I have not lost all hope with them or Orthos or time. Difficulty is reaching agreeing what is wrong, where and what needs to be fixed sooner so we can be heading back in the right direction.

reluctantreligist
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:02 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#45

Unread post by reluctantreligist » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:49 am

I have a feeling that the kothar is all powerful and cannot be tamed.But anyways i live in hope that one day their misdeeds are going to be exposed.i am one of the countless silent sufferer and totally clueless about how to get out of this rotten system.
I am one of the many hypocrites who is bearing all the torture meted out.one reason being ,parent and a kothar crazy spouse, i have the same questions as all the other pdb.
I grew up a regular devout bohri till i grew up and realised that all of it that was forced upon me was hogwash.
the dai has no control on your life living or dead,except monetarily.i dont understand how people blow up crores of rupees on this dubious person.
The kothar and the dai have made our community ,one of the most corrupt society of our country.There is not even one person i am sure that accounts his wajebaat it is just not possible.the dai does not think that this is a moharramaat..probably.can he address this a help in getting their mumeneen out of this fraud.
He cant because who will foot their 7 class star travels abroad and stay and their varied investments all over the world.
what surprises and shocks me the most is some of my close friends who are educated have all fallen in line with them,there is not 1 person who would think rationally.
I absolutely detest when people say "moula ni dua"for any and everything.he has become greater than god himself.how can one be so pompous to make a statement that he is "haqeeqi kaaba","chalta bolta quran"isnt it pathetic.
When he is so great where was mukaasir saahib his family member when this "historic"nus was beeing performed.there was something more important that he had to attend ,perhaps.
I am totally suffocated in this atmosphere and hope to extricate myself from this torturous society some day."insha allah"

genesis
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:16 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#46

Unread post by genesis » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:26 am

Reluctantrbohrist :-I am totally suffocated in this atmosphere and hope to extricate myself from this torturous society some day."insha allah"

If you want your wishes to become true, please learn to say " moula ni dua si "

Humsafar
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#47

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:30 pm

Mkenya,
Bohra spring is correct, how is charitable work going to solve the problem you've outlined: the total highjack of community by power-hungry, money-grubbing mafia?

Reluctantreligist,
Welcome to the forum. I can feel your anger and frustration. This is the plight of most Bohras whether they admit it or not. I'm glad you found this forum and got a chance to vent your spleen. But we all can do more than just feel angry. We're not as powerless as it may seem. Money is the only oxygen this mafia clergy lives on. Find ways to cut off or at least reduce the oxygen supply. You have to say NO to their constant demand for money. Tell your spouse that religion and maula are fine but how does this fetish for money fits into the equation. Tell her about the humility and simple lives of the Prophet and Ahle Bayt and compare that to the wealth and opulence of the mafia clergy. How can any religious person not be shocked by this contrast? Talk about these matters at home, during dinner, with friends and find like-minded people. Once you've someone else who shares your feelings you'll know that you are not alone, and you will feel empowered. Two will become three and so. Together as a group you can take some concrete action. Unless we challenge the kothar at the local jamat level - because that's where we interact with it - nothing much is going to change. The aamil and the chamchas have to be confronted at every step. You can do this better if you're a group rather than as individuals.
Let others know about this forum, encourage them to come this site - there is so much literature and resources about our faith, history and tradition. Lack of resources or ignorance of religion is no longer an excuse. All the information we need is here. What we need is a strategy, a plan to move forward, and that I've briefly outlined above. We must act on it, nobody else will do it for us. There is no messiah. The imam is not coming.
Khuda ne ajj tak us kaum ki halat nai badli,
Na ho jis ko khayal apni halat ke badalne ka

Humsafar
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#48

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:45 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:What I meant to say, that the belts wearing in pants in India are not necessarily from Halal zabihat and should be taken out, similarly the inner leather linings of the fur caps also may not be from halal zabihat leather, or the person I saw wearing a suit without a tie may not be paak for namaz even if it was freshly dry-cleaned because the substance used for dry-cleaning contains alcohol.
Are trying to say the abdes wear belts and carry wallets of halal zabihat only?
Kaka Akela wrote: I saw some women wearing low on the hip sari with a mini blouse, she looked sexy enough for a pope to break his vow of celibacy. Masjid is not the place for such distraction before, during, or after listening to the sermon and praying namaaz.
Women should dress decently. So should men. If the Pope gets excited, it is Pope's problem. Why does the blame and strictures come on women only, and always? What about the male gaze? The Quran commands them to lower it.
In any case these are minor issues, and I'm not sure why you even bring them up here.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#49

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:51 pm

While on the subject, an interesting story comes to my mind :-

Once there was a king who received a gift of two magnificent falcons from Arabia. They were peregrine falcons, the most beautiful birds he had ever seen. He gave the precious birds to his head falconer to be trained. Months passed and one day the head falconer informed the king that though one of the falcons was flying majestically, soaring high in the sky, the other bird had not moved from its branch since the day it had arrived.

The king summoned healers and sorcerers from all the land to tend to the falcon, but no one could make the bird fly. He presented the task to the member of his court, but the next day, the king saw through the palace window that the bird had still not moved from its perch. Having tried everything else, the king thought to himself, “May be I need someone more familiar with the countryside to understand the nature of this problem.” So he cried out to his court, “Go and get a farmer.”

In the morning, the king was thrilled to see the falcon soaring high above the palace gardens. He said to his court, “Bring me the doer of this miracle.” The court quickly located the farmer, who came and stood before the king. The king asked him, “How did you make the falcon fly?” With head bowed, the farmer said to the king, ” It was very easy, your highness. I simply cut the branch where the bird was sitting.”

We are all made to fly to realize our incredible potential as human beings. But instead of doing that, we sit on our branches, clinging to the things that are familiar to us. The possibilities are endless, but for most of us, they remain undiscovered. We conform to the familiar, the comfortable, the mundane. So for the most part, our lives are mediocre instead of exciting, thrilling and fulfilling. So let us learn to destroy the branch of fear we cling to and free ourselves to the glory of flight. .

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:54 pm

So let us learn to destroy the branch of fear we cling to and free ourselves to the glory of flight. .
Or, hire the farmer to cut off our branch.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#51

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:29 pm

anajmi,

hiring that farmer is no use in the case of devout abdes who have undergone 2 khatnas. one which is physical - a total surgical genital removal (meat and 2 potatoes), and the second which is mental - a complete brainwashing and mental paralysis.

if the branch is cut out from below such falcons whose wings have been completely clipped, well, you know what will happen....

askz
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:28 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#52

Unread post by askz » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:51 pm

Safiuddin wrote:Religion, devoid of its bigotry, is a good thing.

Humsafar, you mention the above in one post, and then a few posts later, say that "bigotry is
common to all religions".
Nietzsche is correct. Religions have caused more suffering, bloodshed,
and hatred than all the wars on this planet combined. Man created religions to have dominion over
others.
If you and others require a religion to tell you about morality, spirituality, culture, and society,
then you are being very cleverly brainwashed - and are not using your innate faculties.
Are people so devoid of integrity, morality, and creativity that they require some self-aggrandized and
self-appointed man in a dress and a hat with trappings of wealth to explain morality?
I'll take the spiritual vacuum any day over the hypocrisy and hatred spewed by world religions.
Same goes for cults like the Bohris: I don't require any lying, cheating, money-grubbing, and hate-filled misogynist
to explain spirituality, morality, or human decency.
dear bro saifuddin,
i partly disagree with your last statement. every org. needs a superior to run a smooth affair, like wise there cannot be a ship without a captain provided that if the captain is a dictator then the crew should have a right to revolt and replace him with somebody suitable. the simple fact is Allah needed to send his prophets so that his beings could be guided.
but alas this ship is being run by tyrants. this is the sad part.

reluctantreligist
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:02 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#53

Unread post by reluctantreligist » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:05 am

We are a group of people living under a dictator within a government .sadly no let off,
I have one question on the major scam of the century which the syedna pulled off,by fooling the entire community.
The gold collected in the name of fatema a.s zarih mubarak.which would be in 100sof k.g .someone with even a little bit of common sense will know that the saudi government will never ever allow this.no "mojiza" of the past and present dai can make this possible.no one dares asks a question about this gold which now would be worth many many crores.that indeed was a greatest con job of all time.which would put all the scamsters of the world to shame.
CON JOBS OF THIS KIND ARE A MAJOR MOHARRAMAT,WHEN WILL THEY CLEANSE THEMSELVES

Bohra spring
Posts: 1354
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#54

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:27 am

reluctantreligist wrote:We are a group of people living under a dictator within a government .sadly no let off,
I have one question on the major scam of the century which the syedna pulled off,by fooling the entire community.
The gold collected in the name of fatema a.s zarih mubarak.which would be in 100sof k.g .someone with even a little bit of common sense will know that the saudi government will never ever allow this.no "mojiza" of the past and present dai can make this possible.no one dares asks a question about this gold which now would be worth many many crores.that indeed was a greatest con job of all time.which would put all the scamsters of the world to shame.
CON JOBS OF THIS KIND ARE A MAJOR MOHARRAMAT,WHEN WILL THEY CLEANSE THEMSELVES
1g of gold in India currently is Rs2,700 so 100kg is Rs 27,00,00,000.....did you say several hundred kg... :evil:

reluctantreligist
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:02 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#55

Unread post by reluctantreligist » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:32 am

when the whole community has given wilfully or otherwise,i think it is in that range.people all over the world.no dearth of fools in bohris

askz
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:28 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#56

Unread post by askz » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:31 pm

reluctantreligist wrote:We are a group of people living under a dictator within a government .sadly no let off,
I have one question on the major scam of the century which the syedna pulled off,by fooling the entire community.
The gold collected in the name of fatema a.s zarih mubarak.which would be in 100sof k.g .someone with even a little bit of common sense will know that the saudi government will never ever allow this.no "mojiza" of the past and present dai can make this possible.no one dares asks a question about this gold which now would be worth many many crores.that indeed was a greatest con job of all time.which would put all the scamsters of the world to shame.
CON JOBS OF THIS KIND ARE A MAJOR MOHARRAMAT,WHEN WILL THEY CLEANSE THEMSELVES
well this moziza will never happen as this foolish abdes will never stop giving. every year in india during ramazan this drive is again back on collection the small time aamils and the so called sethyias are capitalizing on zari's name and they are using the abdes money in their business i have recently news of pune where this racket is going on in a place named fatima nagar where they have collected money and gold worth rs 5 crores since 1999 in the name of building markaz for an area called fatima nagar and after the fever is over nothing is done. the money is gone and so are the foolish fatima nagar abdes.every year after year the same story is there. the janab abdeali bhaisaheb of pune is the don of pune as he is the only aamil perhaps residing in pune since last 15 years on the same position because he is the bro of dr. moizbhaisaheb(52nd's son in law)showing his influence.an concerned abde has given in mumbai samachar several times about this but now the mumbai samachar has also bend down their knees in front of kotharand they are not ready to accept his article anymore..so bro this is it about money and gold.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#57

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:36 pm

The amount of gold collected in the name of Fatema tus zehra's zarih should now be over a tonne as this collection drive is going on since decades, women have even given away their bangles, finger rings and earings to the Dai. Lest we forget, can anyone imagine the amount of gold guineas collected on the Dai's birthday bash ? This itself must be weighing over 500 kgs !! This surely reminds one of Pharoah and Nimrud.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1354
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#58

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:44 am

Can some one talk to thei local MLA or collector...the government of India is missing out on 30. % tax from so much gold sitting around.

We need a Robin Hood to steal from the rich and distribute to the poor !

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#59

Unread post by Grayson » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:57 am

More than the government of India, how the hell are we're getting away with these crimes in Western nations? Instead of being asked about excessive untaxed money they know the Shezahda's (and non-naturalized aamils) collect (and subsequently send to the hive), we're given decrees celebrating our 'pristine' society. Blah.

reluctantreligist
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:02 am

Re: How can we stop Kothar’s juggernaut?

#60

Unread post by reluctantreligist » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:20 am

If all the money and gold would be given honestly to the goverment in form of income tax we all could have slept a little more lightly and with a better conscience and been an ideal society in our country.but that is not to be they have turned all bohris into perpetual thiefs ,dishonest and a corrupt society.
perhaps the dai does not see this as moharramat,cheating which is running in their veins.
And ironically in his recent bayaan, the dai was talking about honesty with the other moharramat.