Turbulence in a tiny drop

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Turbulence in a tiny drop

#1

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:34 am

Please allow me to quote a few lines from a long poem of mine :-
Unginat sayyaro, sitaro ka ek samunder,
Uss samunder mey ek qatra Zamin meri,
Es ek qatra Zamin mey phir jano-bejan hastiyo ka ek samunder,
Uss Samunder mey ek qatra wajood mera,
Wajood mera jo kulbulate khulliyo k eek samunder pe mushtamil hai …………


Which can be roughly translated as:-
An Ocean of unlimited planets and stars,
In this ocean a tiny drop is my planet, earth,
In this tiny drop earth there is again an ocean of live and dead elements,
In that ocean of live and dead elements, a tiny drop is my existence,
My existence which is dependant on an ocean of live cells ……..


According to recent recorded figures there are 7100 Crore people in the world. There are 160 Crore Muslims in the world. There are 16 Crore Shia Muslims in the world. All these Crores of people do not consider Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb as their Dai; most of them are even not aware of Dai.
There is only a microscopic community of less than 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras that know Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb as their Dai.
But then there is another community of Parsis which just 80,000 in comparison to Dawoodi Bohras who are more than 8,0000 in the world.
The Parsis were First to land on the shores of Gujarat some 400 years ago claiming that they would live in India like sugar in milk. Then came Bohras from Yemen and Khojas from Khorasan. All these three communities have the same cultural background, Indian culture, language, dress code and tradition. Though the Parsis have steadfastly continued to reinforce their assimilation and Indianness, it is unfortunate that in last 100 years the Dawoodi Bohra priesthood has adopted Fundamentalism, Obscurantism and Practices which embitter the milk instead of sweetening it; at the same time drifting away the entire community from path of Islam and Ismailism.
Parsi humility is truly amazing when you think of their great achievements in practically all fields. The First daily newspaper, the First joint stock compahy, the First organized ship building, the First textile company, the First luxury hotel, the First steel mill, the First airmail service, the First Airline, and many other First can be credited to the Parsis. Tata, Godrej, and Wadia in industry, Jamshedji Madan, Ardeshji Irani, Sohrab Modi, Wadia Movietone and Nadiadwala in cinema, Dr. Homi Bhabha and Dr. Sethna in atomic energy, Field Marshall Maneckshaw and Amiral Cursetji in defence, JRD Tata as air pioneer, Adi Marzban in theater, Jeejeebhoys, Camas and Wadias in medicine and philanthropy, and the Petits, Jeejeebhoy and Shethnas in education are among the Fist names which come to mind. And the Parsi Community has not lagged behind in civic affairs or the professions, with Dadabhoy Naoroji, K.F.Nariman, M.R. Masani, Firoz Gandhi and Piloo Mody in politics, leading jurists like Nani Palkhiwala, Karl Khandalwala and Soli Sorabji, Judges like Bakhtawar Lenin and Justice Sam Bharucha. Think of an area of high merit and you will find imprint of the Parsis.
How did this minuscule Parsi community of less than 80 thousands persons achieve such widespread greatness, and why has similar achievements eluded the much larger community of more than 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras? What is reason for 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras from the same cultural background being left far behind?
Where are today Dawoodi Bohras like Peerbhoy, Jeevanjis, Maskatis, and why they have stopped appearing in our community?
A Parsi lady Prof. Aloo Dastur hit the nail on the head when she said, “Ours is the only community where the community is organized but the religion is not organized. Meaning that the Parsi religion has not become an establishment and the Parsis are the slaves of that establishment. They are independent in their functioning. Parsi dasturs (priests) perform religious rites whenever they are called for, but neither they interfere in the normal lives of Parsis nor have any say in the use of community property and/or funds. They earn their livelihood by working in trade, professions or industries, and are paid a nominal fee for the religious services which they perform in their spare time. (I was a manager in Godrej Co. which is Parsi Co. and I have seen Parsi priests serving as manual labours and machinists.) But when it comes to the community affairs, properties, funds or activities, it is the elected Prsi Panchayat which is the sole authority. (The same was the system in the Dawoodi Bohra community prior to 51st Dai, who introduced Raza and Jamatkharij. Earlier Amils, Moallim and Mullas were hired by the local Jamats and were answerable to the Jamat.)
In contrast to Parsis, the Bohra Dai and his family dictate every aspect of Bohra’s life from cradle to grave, and even beyond the grave. The crores of rupees which Dawoodi Bohra establishment collects from the community every year, none of which has led to any growth or development for the community.
I have so elaborately given the shining example of the Parsis to emphasis that the time has come for us to seek accountability from Amils and establishment by first disregarding the Amils and Raza system without being afraid of ‘Baraat’ (excommunication). Do not ask questions like “Can we replace present Dai? Or Who should lead us? It is wast of time.
After Nabuwat (Prophet-hood), Khilafat (Caliphate) and Imamat (Imamate) came to an end some 900 years back a system of guidance was started by particular sect. It is not divine. It is just a system of religious guidance for an insignificant community.
Man is born free and Qur’an insists that we should use our intellect and just do what we feel is right in the light of Islam.
Because of one individual and one family do not get caught in the paradox of a system of Misaq (oath of allegiance), Raza (permission), Jamatkharij/Baraat (Excommunication), Ikram, Vadhavni, Najwa, Salam, Qadambosi, Didar, Milad, Moharram/Ramazan/Zikra tamashas, Darees, ziyafats, Wajebat, Sabeel, Dress code, e-jamaat card, vazrat, sadat-e-kram, Farma-e-Aali etc. etc.

Momin Mukhlis
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:02 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#2

Unread post by Momin Mukhlis » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:51 am

Yusuf ko kisne dekha, Maazi ka zikr kya
Magar is jahan me Saani tera koi nahi...

Labbaik Ya Dai Allah!

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#3

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:34 pm

Momin Mukhlis wrote:Yusuf ko kisne dekha, Maazi ka zikr kya
Magar is jahan me Saani tera koi nahi...

Labbaik Ya Dai Allah!
momin mukhlis,

i will recite for a rabid abdesyedna like you at your mayyat: "INNA LID DAI E, WA INNA DAI E RAJEUN".


Momin Mukhlis
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:02 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#4

Unread post by Momin Mukhlis » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:25 pm

Muddai laakh bura chahe to kya hoga,
Wo hi hoga jo Manzoor-e-Khuda hoga...

Fateh
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#5

Unread post by Fateh » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:10 am

Very good compression of db community & parsi but you forgets one thing insaf saheb,we means our clergy are the first in the world who found a very perfect organize systems for looting the community in a such a way that no one even know they are looted.

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#6

Unread post by progticide » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:59 am

At first, I did not even want to respond to this nonsense post. But then, I thought why not explain to everybody why this post is nonsensible and deceitful. The author of this thread is such a liar that he deserves no attention of mine. But again, let everyone, especially the proggies, know how big a liar this S. Insaf is and how he has been misleading the proggies for a long time.

Admin, you too should read and verify the details below. There are certainly more worthwhile things for you to accomplish on this forum then merely issuing warnings to me.
S. Insaf wrote:According to recent recorded figures there are 7100 Crore people in the world.
Liar. There are approx. 710 crore people in the world. You just multiplied the figure with 10. Maybe the proggies should recheck the reformist account books maintained by this liar to see where he has jumbled up the numbers and pocketed the gains for himself.
S. Insaf wrote:The Parsis were First to land on the shores of Gujarat some 400 years ago claiming that they would live in India like sugar in milk. Then came Bohras from Yemen and Khojas from Khorasan.
Liar. Bohras in India did not come from Yemen. Bohras in India are ethnically Indians, converts from largely Brahmin and Rajput communities of Gujarat and South Rajasthan, and few from Pathan ethnicity. The Khojas In India and Pakistan on the other hand are converts from ethnic Gujarati and Sindhi/Kutchi and pashtun/baloch communities and few from Pathan communities of South Kashmir. The Ismaili community to which Indian Bohras(Dawoodi, Alavi, Sulaimani) belong were first converted to Islam during the time of Imam Mustansir(AS) (18th Fatimi Imam caliph) by his deputies approx. 1000 years ago. The first generation of Muslims in the Indian Ismaili fold included Syedi Fakhruddin Shaheed (Babji Maula of Galiakot) whose father and uncle (Raja Tarmal and Raja Bharmal) were among the first converts alongwith Raja Siddharaj Jaisingh of Patan. This proves that Indian Bohras did not migrate from Yemen but are actually ethnically Indians from Brahmin and Rajput ancestry compared to Yemeni Bohras who are ethnically Arabs. A few Bohra families may have migrated from Yemen, but that is an exception. So first read the history books properly before further misguiding the already misguided reformists.
S. Insaf wrote: All these three communities have the same cultural background, Indian culture, language, dress code and tradition.
Another blatant lie. Indian Bohras have no cultural similarity with Parsis and Khojas except for flavours of Gujrati as the spoken language. Parsis have Iranian cultural background. But Bohras are strictly following Islamic practices like Islamic/Misri Lunar calender. Whereas for Parsis the new year starts in March, Bohras follow the lunar calender with 1st Moharram marking the beginning of new year. The religious dress code of Parsis and Bohras is quite different. The religious texts of Parsis follow Persian dialect whereas for Bohras it is either Arabic or Lisan-ud-dawat(mix of Arabic & Gujrati). Just because the two communities are largely centered/concentrated in Gujarat is bound to have some commonalities but it does not dilute their cultural heritage and originality.
S. Insaf wrote:at the same time drifting away the entire community from path of Islam and Ismailism..
Liar. First of all, you yourself are a Kafir. And before Admin decides to censor this word and delete my post and ban me from this forum, read the comments for the last quote where I shall prove why Insaf is a Kafir.
S. Insaf wrote:How did this minuscule Parsi community of less than 80 thousands persons achieve such widespread greatness, and why has similar achievements eluded the much larger community of more than 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras? What is reason for 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras from the same cultural background being left far behind?
Where are today Dawoodi Bohras like Peerbhoy, Jeevanjis, Maskatis, and why they have stopped appearing in our community?.
Rather than talking about others and their achievements, why dont you mention your own contribution and enlist your laurels. Who stopped you from becoming a Tata, Godrej, Wadia, Ambani, Adani etc.? Just because you were incompetent you are blaming others for your failure. How does communal/ethnic background have anything to contribute to individuals triumph in professional life? Yes, a few of this community have created a mark for themselves in the society, truly remarkable. But, there are plenty of them who do menial jobs and live on community payouts for their children's education and marriage and housing. You quietly forgot to mention that. And you forgot to mention how the Govt. of India has expressed concern on the dwindling numbers of this community? So where does all the glory and glamour of the community stand when it is looking in face of extinction with falling population figures? And if everything about this community is so perfect and attractive to you, why dont you will your dead body to be thrown out under the open sky for vultures and crows to feed upon it?
S. Insaf wrote:After Nabuwat (Prophet-hood), Khilafat (Caliphate) and Imamat (Imamate) came to an end some 900 years back a system of guidance was started by particular sect. It is not divine. It is just a system of religious guidance for an insignificant community.
Kafir. Yes, you are a kafir. And you have proven it in your own words above. Imamat shall never cease to exist. By saying that Imamat came to an end 900 years back you not only deny the Ismaili doctrine that Imamate continues in seclusion without break, but you deny the Ahadith of Prophet (SAWS) where he mentioned about the coming of final Imam who would share the same kuniyat as His i.e. Abul Qasim. Thus, you are not a Muslim in the first place since you deny the coming of the Final Messiah who shall bring order and justice to the world. And since the community is so insignificant why are you wasting your life around it even after being thrown out from it. Or is it that everywhere else you went to find acceptance for yourself people closed their gates for a stinking beast like you?

So what do the reformists leader and protaganist on this forum like Humsafar, Mubarak a.k.a Badrijanab, Porus have to say about this rubbish thread from this Liar Insaf.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#7

Unread post by S. Insaf » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:09 am

Hazrat Ali ibne Abi Talib’s governor (Amil), Harish-ibne-Sohail was once riding the bazaar of Koofa when he saw Hazrat Ali also riding through. As mark of respect for his caliph and ruler he got down from his horse and started walking on foot with Hazrat Ali. (We Bohras also behave in the same manner when come across some Amil. We bow down before him do taslim and kiss his hand. So far Sayedna Saheb is concern we Bohras run for his didar and do all sort of monkey business.

But look what Hazrat Ali felt and said to his governor. He said:
“It ill-becomes a man to lower himself before any body but his God. Please get upon your horse. Even had you not been an officer of the state and an ordinary person I would not have allowed you to lower yourself like this. The sight of such humiliation of man before man never pleases Allah and me. It is the worst form of tyranny which can be practiced by any body.”

In the light of this practice of Hazrat Ali think over the practices of our Dai (who claims to be the Dai of Maula Ali) and his Amils and madness of Dawoodi Bohras. So if you are true mumin and have left some respect in your hearts for Ahle-Bayet for thing you should do is to discards the Amils and stop seeking their Raza for religious rites like Namaz, Majlis, Niyaz Zikre-Husain etc. and civil activities like burial, nikah/marriage, Talaq, education, service, profession/business, establishing welfare institutes, madrasas, school, college etc.

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#8

Unread post by progticide » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:06 am

All Forum Members, especially the Reformists,

See for yourself how this Liar and Kafir S. Insaf has tried to distract your attention from this thread by posting another comment instead of countering my points above. I challenge S. Insaf to prove my above comments wrong.

Instead of countering my comments (since he knows well that his lies in the above thread have been exposed) he has sought to distract the attention of the forum members and especially reformists from reading my remarks by posting quotes from Maula Ali so that reformists members would not know how his lies in the beginning of this thread have been exposed above.

I am once again quoting below my post so that everyone would know how big a liar and a Kafir this S. Insaf really is.

progticide wrote:At first, I did not even want to respond to this nonsense post. But then, I thought why not explain to everybody why this post is nonsensible and deceitful. The author of this thread is such a liar that he deserves no attention of mine. But again, let everyone, especially the proggies, know how big a liar this S. Insaf is and how he has been misleading the proggies for a long time.

Admin, you too should read and verify the details below. There are certainly more worthwhile things for you to accomplish on this forum then merely issuing warnings to me.
S. Insaf wrote:According to recent recorded figures there are 7100 Crore people in the world.
Liar. There are approx. 710 crore people in the world. You just multiplied the figure with 10. Maybe the proggies should recheck the reformist account books maintained by this liar to see where he has jumbled up the numbers and pocketed the gains for himself.
S. Insaf wrote:The Parsis were First to land on the shores of Gujarat some 400 years ago claiming that they would live in India like sugar in milk. Then came Bohras from Yemen and Khojas from Khorasan.
Liar. Bohras in India did not come from Yemen. Bohras in India are ethnically Indians, converts from largely Brahmin and Rajput communities of Gujarat and South Rajasthan, and few from Pathan ethnicity. The Khojas In India and Pakistan on the other hand are converts from ethnic Gujarati and Sindhi/Kutchi and pashtun/baloch communities and few from Pathan communities of South Kashmir. The Ismaili community to which Indian Bohras(Dawoodi, Alavi, Sulaimani) belong were first converted to Islam during the time of Imam Mustansir(AS) (18th Fatimi Imam caliph) by his deputies approx. 1000 years ago. The first generation of Muslims in the Indian Ismaili fold included Syedi Fakhruddin Shaheed (Babji Maula of Galiakot) whose father and uncle (Raja Tarmal and Raja Bharmal) were among the first converts alongwith Raja Siddharaj Jaisingh of Patan. This proves that Indian Bohras did not migrate from Yemen but are actually ethnically Indians from Brahmin and Rajput ancestry compared to Yemeni Bohras who are ethnically Arabs. A few Bohra families may have migrated from Yemen, but that is an exception. So first read the history books properly before further misguiding the already misguided reformists.
S. Insaf wrote: All these three communities have the same cultural background, Indian culture, language, dress code and tradition.
Another blatant lie. Indian Bohras have no cultural similarity with Parsis and Khojas except for flavours of Gujrati as the spoken language. Parsis have Iranian cultural background. But Bohras are strictly following Islamic practices like Islamic/Misri Lunar calender. Whereas for Parsis the new year starts in March, Bohras follow the lunar calender with 1st Moharram marking the beginning of new year. The religious dress code of Parsis and Bohras is quite different. The religious texts of Parsis follow Persian dialect whereas for Bohras it is either Arabic or Lisan-ud-dawat(mix of Arabic & Gujrati). Just because the two communities are largely centered/concentrated in Gujarat is bound to have some commonalities but it does not dilute their cultural heritage and originality.
S. Insaf wrote:at the same time drifting away the entire community from path of Islam and Ismailism..
Liar. First of all, you yourself are a Kafir. And before Admin decides to censor this word and delete my post and ban me from this forum, read the comments for the last quote where I shall prove why Insaf is a Kafir.
S. Insaf wrote:How did this minuscule Parsi community of less than 80 thousands persons achieve such widespread greatness, and why has similar achievements eluded the much larger community of more than 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras? What is reason for 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras from the same cultural background being left far behind?
Where are today Dawoodi Bohras like Peerbhoy, Jeevanjis, Maskatis, and why they have stopped appearing in our community?.
Rather than talking about others and their achievements, why dont you mention your own contribution and enlist your laurels. Who stopped you from becoming a Tata, Godrej, Wadia, Ambani, Adani etc.? Just because you were incompetent you are blaming others for your failure. How does communal/ethnic background have anything to contribute to individuals triumph in professional life? Yes, a few of this community have created a mark for themselves in the society, truly remarkable. But, there are plenty of them who do menial jobs and live on community payouts for their children's education and marriage and housing. You quietly forgot to mention that. And you forgot to mention how the Govt. of India has expressed concern on the dwindling numbers of this community? So where does all the glory and glamour of the community stand when it is looking in face of extinction with falling population figures? And if everything about this community is so perfect and attractive to you, why dont you will your dead body to be thrown out under the open sky for vultures and crows to feed upon it?
S. Insaf wrote:After Nabuwat (Prophet-hood), Khilafat (Caliphate) and Imamat (Imamate) came to an end some 900 years back a system of guidance was started by particular sect. It is not divine. It is just a system of religious guidance for an insignificant community.
Kafir. Yes, you are a kafir. And you have proven it in your own words above. Imamat shall never cease to exist. By saying that Imamat came to an end 900 years back you not only deny the Ismaili doctrine that Imamate continues in seclusion without break, but you deny the Ahadith of Prophet (SAWS) where he mentioned about the coming of final Imam who would share the same kuniyat as His i.e. Abul Qasim. Thus, you are not a Muslim in the first place since you deny the coming of the Final Messiah who shall bring order and justice to the world. And since the community is so insignificant why are you wasting your life around it even after being thrown out from it. Or is it that everywhere else you went to find acceptance for yourself people closed their gates for a stinking beast like you?

So what do the reformists leader and protaganist on this forum like Humsafar, Mubarak a.k.a Badrijanab, Porus have to say about this rubbish thread from this Liar Insaf.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#9

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:50 am

Momin Mukhlis wrote:Muddai laakh bura chahe to kya hoga,
Wo hi hoga jo Manzoor-e-Khuda hoga...
mm,

you should have the conviction to alter your quote in keeping with your beliefs. it should read as:

Muddai laakh bura chahe to kya hota hai,
Wohi hota hai jo Manzoor-e-dai hota hai.

please let us know before your impending death, so we can recite for a rabid abdesyedna like you at your mayyat: "INNA LID DAI E, WA INNA DAI E RAJEUN".

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#10

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:00 am

so the frog's backside is risen again from his dead ashes.. :mrgreen:

out of the entire post of bhai insaf, all he could glean with his most superior intelligence, were the technical faults. the gist of the post was lost on him.

the loot of our community, the constant and exorbitant demands for money, gold guineas, tyranny, corruption, selling of fraudulent and useless titles, the mental slavery and restricting of bohras to live and look within the narrow confines of the jamaat, all this is not important. what is important is the origin of the bohras, the population of the world and dress codes.

this frog is a typical 'khabochiya no dedko' with his frog-in-the-well mentality.

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#11

Unread post by think » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:27 am

Mr. insaaf speaks the truth from the aspect of progress made by the parsis. These are self evident truths.
also truth is the fact that bohris have made progress also. examples are mithaiwalla in London, who has been bestowed the highest honour by the queen . Although very famous, yet he never attends waez, majlis etc or cows down to the Amil. He is least interested in the clergy. The clergy as a matter of fact asked for his help in getting permission to bury the Dai's wife in London and so he obliged . Since they asked for his help he gave freely, Today the election commissioner of Pakistan Mr. Fukhruddin is a bohri. Yes he is a bohri by culture but is not and never will be a practising abde. He will never cow down to the dictats of the local Karachi mulla. He will never paricipate in any of the religious hangama. His religious veiws are fully in conflict with the kothars.
The chief minister of the interim govt. of Karachi is Mr. Zahid Alvi is also a bohri.. He is the son of a very old and well established family of Karachi. again ,his views and opinions about the ways of the clergy and his beleif system are poles apart. A staunch muslim in his own way and a wonderful personality. He keeps the kothar and the local amil away from his religion.
The Tapals are another family being a bohri but never have nothing to do with the clergy and their religion. All their sons are married into non bohri's
The facts are that bohris have made progress but without the interefernce of the clergy. They did not need special duaas, they did it on their own.

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#12

Unread post by think » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:42 am

Ofcourse the list goes on and on. There are bohri multi millionares and intellectuals in the field of science , medicine and law that the ordinary bohri never hears about. The reason being, they will never cow down to the kothar and do what what in their concious is wrong. They are brave to get out of this cheapskate so called religion if they have to.
The local amil will never let the bohris know about these personalities, because he will loose his importance.
So, yes there are bohri people well cultured, and progressive but they have achieved this by their freeedom of staying miles away from the kothar and his goonda amils.

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#13

Unread post by progticide » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:22 am

think wrote:Ofcourse the list goes on and on. There are bohri multi millionares and intellectuals in the field of science , medicine and law that the ordinary bohri never hears about.
So the reformists are basically in agreement with me that the above post from S. Insaf is utter rubbish and nonsense and that S. Insaf has tried to further misguide the already misguided reformists with this false and unfounded comparison between Bohras and Parsis.

Simply put, the reformists finally agree on the point that S. Insaf is a Big Liar and Scoundrel and harbours ill-feeling against the DB community and its achievements.

Thank you All.

rang
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:50 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#14

Unread post by rang » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:00 am

think wrote:Mr. insaaf speaks the truth from the aspect of progress made by the parsis. These are self evident truths.
also truth is the fact that bohris have made progress also. examples are mithaiwalla in London, who has been bestowed the highest honour by the queen . Although very famous, yet he never attends waez, majlis etc or cows down to the Amil. He is least interested in the clergy. The clergy as a matter of fact asked for his help in getting permission to bury the Dai's wife in London and so he obliged . Since they asked for his help he gave freely, Today the election commissioner of Pakistan Mr. Fukhruddin is a bohri. Yes he is a bohri by culture but is not and never will be a practising abde. He will never cow down to the dictats of the local Karachi mulla. He will never paricipate in any of the religious hangama. His religious veiws are fully in conflict with the kothars.
The chief minister of the interim govt. of Karachi is Mr. Zahid Alvi is also a bohri.. He is the son of a very old and well established family of Karachi. again ,his views and opinions about the ways of the clergy and his beleif system are poles apart. A staunch muslim in his own way and a wonderful personality. He keeps the kothar and the local amil away from his religion.
The Tapals are another family being a bohri but never have nothing to do with the clergy and their religion. All their sons are married into non bohri's
The facts are that bohris have made progress but without the interefernce of the clergy. They did not need special duaas, they did it on their own.
ALSO TO MENTION Mehar Alvi One of the top ranking Lawyers of Pakistan. Then (Late) Mr Hatim Alvi the Former Governer of State Bank of Pakistan, Mr Saleem Mandviwala Finance Minister Of Pakistan. These Guys are without Topi and Beard and I have never seen them in any Congregations or Majlis.

Nameless
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#15

Unread post by Nameless » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:09 am

by think on Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:27 pm

Mr. insaaf speaks the truth from the aspect of progress made by the parsis. These are self evident truths.
also truth is the fact that bohris have made progress also. examples are mithaiwalla in London, who has been bestowed the highest honour by the queen . Although very famous, yet he never attends waez, majlis etc or cows down to the Amil. He is least interested in the clergy. The clergy as a matter of fact asked for his help in getting permission to bury the Dai's wife in London and so he obliged . Since they asked for his help he gave freely,
"Mola Jannat Ma Haat Pakar se". Mola Dai Lillah. Yet it took the influence of an ordinary British businessman in the shape of Mr Mithaiwalla to obtain permission from Her Majesty's Government to bury Busaheba not in a cemetary for ordinary abdes but in a specially designated place outside the London masjid. Not even Idris BS who has been in the UK amalat for hundreds of years nor the powerful 'Mola ni dua' could be of assistance. hmmmm! I like that.

Here's another rhetoric - When the time comes for TUS to leave this earthly abode, who will hold TUS' hand to enter Jannat ul Firdaus? His late Father or any of the other 51 dais??? The mind boggles. As AZ would say - How dare I think such things. Perish the thought and say tasbi of Ya Muhammad Burhanuddin 10,000 times and ask Allah for forgiveness. :? :oops:

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#16

Unread post by S. Insaf » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:46 am

Dear progticide
1. Even if world population is 710 Crores does it change that Dawoodi Bohras are in most insignificant minority?
2. Historically it is a fact that when Parsis landed on the shore of Gujarat the ruler of Gujarat send his men with a jar full of milk thereby conveying that there no place for migrants in Gujarat. To which the Parsi leader added some sugar thereby responding that we will live in India like sugar in milk without upsetting the status quo.
3. Bohras and Khojas came to India from outside that is also a fact.
4. It is also a fact that these three communities had the same cultural background and their language and traditions still have the imprint of that culture though now after mass revolt in Udaipur the frustrated Dawoodi Bohra priesthood imposed different dress code, Lisan-e-Dawat, E-jamat cards. In fact till recently Bohras and Parsis were known as “Ma Masi na”. The word “Bohra” and many Bohra ceremonies like “Vadhavni” “haldi”, “Arti”, “Menhdi” “Tijia”, “nomia”, “Chehlam” etc. are the sign of the same Gujarati culture.
5. It is also that since late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb’s time the Dawoodi Bohra community has definitely drifted away from the path of Islam and Ismailism. In fact it has now become a cult.
6. How did this minuscule Parsi community of less than 80 thousands persons achieve such widespread greatness, and why has similar achievements eluded the much larger community of more than 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras? What is reason for 8 lakhs Dawoodi Bohras from the same cultural background being left far behind?
7. Propose of writing this article is to find an answer to this pertinent question. The answer is that Parsis are free from the slavery of their priests. When Dawoodi Bohras were freed from clutches of their masters of mind, soul, body and property they had also excelled in philanthropy and many other fields. Since they were well-wishers of the community and humanity today they are all considered as “enemies of Dawat”.
8. Lastly thanks for suggestion “And if everything about this (Parsi) community is so perfect and attractive to you, why don’t you will your dead body to be thrown out under the open sky for vultures and crows to feed upon it?”. Such suggestions come from Dead Communities.

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#17

Unread post by think » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:40 am

as I said, the list goes on. Valika built the entire haidri for poor bohris but now the clergy claims moula did it for mumineen. The clergy have completely wiped out the name of valika as the phiantrophist that took this humongous project to construct a complete community ,where poor bohris could have a roof over their heads.
And many more in Africa and elsewhere.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#18

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:06 am

Without ever working a single day in his life, Mola built hundreds of Mosques.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#19

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:36 am

progticide wrote:
Simply put, the reformists finally agree on the point that S. Insaf is a Big Liar and Scoundrel and harbours ill-feeling against the DB community and its achievements.

Thank you All.
since when have you become the spokesman for the reformists? in your dreams?? :roll:

another don quixote appears... :mrgreen: btw, where is your sancho panza, frog?

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#20

Unread post by think » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:49 pm

prgicide, i see the hatred in your words. such anger will lead you astray from the truth. Keep yourself in control and maybe the truth will dawn on you. If the bohri's were brahmins in the first place, which is the top cast in the hindu religion with all the perks afforded them, why would they leave their religion?

Grayson
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#21

Unread post by Grayson » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:03 pm

think wrote:prgicide, i see the hatred in your words. such anger will lead you astray from the truth. Keep yourself in control and maybe the truth will dawn on you.
The thing is, he doesn't feel "astray" from anything. As far as he knows, he's on the truth and anyone with an ounce of doubt in his stringent beliefs, is towards heresy. I don't see emotional appeal working in this case. Sadly. :(
I urge rebuttals (from not just you) to him be of kind reason. It's likely not going to work either, but it does have merit on it's own and can stand without him solely being the specific subject to your appeal.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#22

Unread post by S. Insaf » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:45 pm

Dear progticide,
I had missed one point regarding your question on “Imamat”. You had no problem when I said Prophethood ended and you had no problem when I said “Caliphate” ended but you were perturbed and got offended when I said Imamat ended, though a significant majority of Muslims do not believe in the concept of Imamat and a significant Ishna Ashari Shia Muslims and Ismaili Shia Muslims do not believe in Ismaili-Mustalian-Dawoodi Bohras’ Imam, Abul Qasim Tayyeb. Khojas also believe in the Shia Ismaili doctrines but their Imam is Zahir Imam, Aga Khan (Imam in existence) and Ismaili Bohras’ Imam is in seclusion (Hidden). Ishna Ashari Shias according to the Ahadith of Prophet (SAWS) of coming of final Imam, the Final Messiah, believe that would Imam Mehdi who would share the same kuniyat.
As far as ‘Dai and Dawat system’, Misaq, Raza, Baraat, Amils, Wajebat, Sabil, Najwa, Darees, Ziyafat, they are only and only in most insignificant minority of Dawoodi Bohras and no where else.

as2153
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#23

Unread post by as2153 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:58 pm

http://www.bu.edu/cgs/2010/05/14/univer ... -medicine/

An example of a prominent and active dawoodi bohra that has both accomplished much and contributed much back to society - this is one small example of several that I know. Id be cautious of saying that our community has no notable and accomplished members within it.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#24

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:29 pm

S. Insaf wrote: As far as ‘Dai and Dawat system’, Misaq, Raza, Baraat, Amils, Wajebat, Sabil, Najwa, Darees, Ziyafat, they are only and only in most insignificant minority of Dawoodi Bohras and no where else.
aaah, but bhai insaf, you are forgetting that only this miniscule no., only 0.0001% of the population of this world is guaranteed janaat, because their dai is the boss of allah. whether allah agrees or not, if dai commands him to admit his abde, allah has to provide him an A/C room with attached toilet/bathroom, free internet, HDTV, hairdryer, iron, toilettries, towels, daily newspaper, roomservice, housekeeping, free universal calls, 3 times meals with chai pani, nashto, fruits and 72 virgin hooris who will provide full massage, oil bath, manicure, pedicure, etc etc..

dai has strictly instructed allah only to take care of the front office and act as receptionist, concierge and bell-boy, direct calls, allot rooms and oversee the general administration of jannat, while dai remains the owner and general manager/ceo/coo/cfo/cao of the total set-up.

our parsee brothers can stuff their worldly success, we bohras are the one's who will enjoy in the hereafter and have the last laugh! after all, all the gold guineas and crores in bribes cannot go in vain, can they?

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#25

Unread post by think » Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:42 pm

without topi, without saya qurta, without ridda and kothar ready to grab big bucks. Talk about hypocrisy.All along I thought saifee hospital was built by the clergy now that the facts are out we know.

as2153
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#26

Unread post by as2153 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:47 pm

Most bohras (95%+ in the west) wear regular clothes normally and rida/topi only at masjid and appropriate community focused occasions and are active participants/believers in the community. Same people in a different setting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXNU_ZYxDZY

The point is that the DB community DOES have notable and accomplished members in it and to state otherwise in a blanket statement is not representative of reality.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#27

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:29 pm

A post which appeared earlier on the forum which exposes the Dais tall claims of philanthrophy and the REAL bohras who laid the foundation of institutions like Faize Hussaini which was hijacked by the Dai and eventually the ones who initiated such projects were excommunicated :-

It was difficult for Dawoodi Bohras as for others to travel to Mecca and stay there for Haj during early days. Sir Adamji Peerbhoy realized this difficulty when he went on Haj for the first time in June 1882 with 125 Bohras from Kathyawar and Jamnagar. The people were required to come to Bombay to take a steamer for Mecca. There was no arrangement for Bohras to stay in Bombay and at Mecca, Medina and Karbala. So on his return from Haj he constructed a Sanatorium at Charni Road in Bombay and Bohra Rubats at all three places. Then in 1897 Seth Alibhai Karimji Alvi and Esaji Adamji established a Trust and named it as “Faiz-e-Husaini Charitable Trust with initial amount of Rs. 1,52,650/- by them and got it registered.


A memorandum submitted to the Governor of Bombay, Sir Leslie Wilson in 1933 states about this trust among many other cases of forceful usurpation of Community’s properties by Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb. The text in brief is as follows :-
A trust known as Faiz-e-Husaini was founded by some honest and sincere good Bohras of Karachi some 35 years back. Due to enormous amount of good work and benefit the value of the trust increased to 35 lacs rupees in a short time. All along the trustees carried out their affairs quietly and peacefully without any interference from any of the Mullaji Sahebs. About 6 months ago when the present Mullaji Sayedna Taher Saifuddin went to Karachi he sent his agents to the trustees asking them 1) first to include a clause in the Trust Deed that the trustees would not do any thing without first obtaining the permission of Mullaji. 2) On a vacancy the trustee would be appointed by Mullaji. With that The Sayedna Saheb started coercion but was advised by his lawyers that “his action would be illegal and he would be civilly and criminally liable for any interference in the trust matter as Trust Deed prohibited the interference of any one other than trustees.” He came back to Bombay and instructed his solicitors to draw up deed transferring all properties and funds of Faiz-e-Husaini in Karachi, Bombay, Basra and Karbala to the Mullaji’s name. He then sent his emissaries to trustees in Karachi to sign the deed. The entire circumstances how trustees were compelled to sign the deed is most horrifying. Thus the biggest charitable institution was usurped by Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. The memorandum had asked the Governor of Bombay to inquire into the matter by reference to the collector of Karachi and said that “Your Excellency will be horrified to know the tricks and dangerous games played by the Mullaji with Faiz-e-Husaini knowing fully well the law of the country.”


The same Faiz-e-Husaini today under the absolute control of Sayedna Saheb has become an exclusive tour and travel agent for Dawoodi Bohras. Its original office in Bombay has been shifted from Moriswala Musafarkhana building to Mazgaon after the raid by the Enforcement Directorate and exposure of big Hawala Racket through 204 illegal Bank drafts worth Rs. 27 lacs in Oct. 1984. Today because of the very stakes involved Faiz-e-Husaini has been given so much importance that Bohras are made to believe as if there is no way to go to Haj, Umra and Ziyarat out side India except through Faiz and they ask “How do you organise Hajj?”

anajmi
Posts: 13403
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Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:49 pm

All this is well and good but I am Grayson and I want to see the proof. Once you show me the proof I will turn all abde idiots into abde smarts.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#29

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:25 pm

While on the subject, the below mentioned post which appeared on the forum exposes the Dai and his henchmen even more :-

Supreme Court of India's final order on 3rd Feb. 2000 in the matter of Civil Apeal No. 5682 0f 1999

30 (Thirty) beds in the proposed Saifee Hospital shall be reserved for the treatment of members of the Dawoodi Bohra Community free of charge. Such beds and treatment to be provided to economically needy Dawoodi Bohras regardless of whether they have the Oath of Alligiance (Misaq) or not and regardless of whether they have been excommunicated (Baraat) or not. The criterion of ecomonic need shall be as determined by the Maharastra Government for other charitable hospitals.

So for as Saifee Hospital being a charitable hospital and Supreme Court of India’s order to it to provide free of cost beds and treatment to poor and needy Dawoodi Bohras regardless of Misaq and Baraat is concerned, that order is quite clear.

Now question is whether the Supreme Court’s order is followed by the hospital or not?


The earlier 'Dream project' was that of taking control of charitable "Sir Adamji Peerbhoy Sanatorium", demolishing it and constructing a commercial public "Saifee Hospital" on its land. Advocate Abid Merchant and Mansoor Jani fought the Sanatorium Case up to the Supreme Court of India for 30 years. It was then that people came to know about the various frauds played by the criminals in holy garbs. They had played frauds with Bombay Municipal Corporation, Charity Commissioner, several banks and even with law courts and were likely to find their place in Jail. But with their power of purse they managed to skip.

In Sir Adamji Peerbhoy Sanatorium case the unholy trustees (Yusuf Najmuddin, Saleh Safiuddin, Ali Asgar Kalimuddin etc.) had shown a Bank on the place where Sir Adamji's Masjid exists and a ladies lavatory in place where Sir Adamji's Turbat exists on the plans submitted to BMC for constructing a "Modern Commercial Complex". Those plans got rejected as the unholy trustees had shown the backside Bohra graveyard as parking space, the graveyard land was BMC's property. These plans were quitely submitted to BMC for approval when the Bohras were kept busy celebrating "Ali-Day" in Bombay.

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Turbulence in a tiny drop

#30

Unread post by think » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:10 pm

need i say more. A forked tongue and a forked name. pretension at its best. First he is A najmi and then we see him as grey side grayson. Not certain where he will turn next.