Bohra Madrasa, the start of abde ideology

[Bohra spring]

This topic is to discuss in details how the Kothar has created an dangerous method to indoctrinate their evil ideology in young minds from the tender age of five years.

I had a chance of review the books and interview young children of my relatives who attend madrasa , I was shocked by the few subjects they take .

Kothar has cleverly blended Namaaz, Quran recital , mad eh and a subject where they discuss strange ideology.

One example I heard was where the children are taught that if one wants to see the Prophet SAW they can see the Maula...astagh feralluh.

Some are so wrong and twisted that I am reluctant to list them yet.

They are taught the importance of najwa, wajebat, kardhan....some practises are completely false and done to manipulate the faith. Eg that namaz is invalid if they do not do Husain AS matamoros at the end.

I ask all reformists and concerned parents to talk to your children and find out and correct the teachings before it is too late. These young children are being groomed for lifelong slavery and fanatic extremist abdes. This same children will get up and disown the parents if they find out you are against the Diai.

Share your experiences.

[Rising Star]

this is why I am already worried where will my kids study QURAAAN and NAMAAZ, I am already looking for some neutral madressas which are free from sectism, where my kids can study QURAAN and NAMAAZ without any manipulations.

[Al Zulfiqar]

this is nothing new. the same type of indoctrination goes on at the sabaks. its all part of a sinister plan to further enslave the gullible and naive bohras by mental manipulation and brainwashing.

i have met a couple of outwardly modern bohra youth in the west, well-educated, professional, employed at multi-national companies, but who were so warped in their thinking after attending sabaks over a long period, that it was shocking to the core. their inner thoughts and views were so disturbing and perverted from the normal, that they even mouthed statements along the lines of ' this world around us is not the reality, it is an illusion, the 'real' reality is only perceivable to those who have the ilm of taaweel, those who are privileged and allowed to gain these secret and esoteric knowledge, the rest are all ignorant jaahils' etc.

their fanaticism and blind faith was so complete, that it left me aghast for days! the kothar is nothing but the instrument of shaitaan, the way they are playing with the minds of our people. we can see instances of it on this board itself, shallow and abusive fanatics like ammar, progticide, adam etc are prime examples.

is it any wonder the rascals of kothar require the participants of sabaks and madrasas to take an oath of secrecy, so that they can hide their nefarious deeds from the outside world?

[Rising Star]

kothar has to keep people mind puffed up with fantasy in order to rule people with greed and fear....

[Grayson]

i have met a couple of outwardly modern bohra youth in the west, well-educated, professional, employed at multi-national companies, but who were so warped in their thinking after attending sabaks over a long period, that it was shocking to the core. their inner thoughts and views were so disturbing and perverted from the normal, that they even mouthed statements along the lines of ' this world around us is not the reality, it is an illusion, the 'real' reality is only perceivable to those who have the ilm of taaweel, those who are privileged and allowed to gain these secret and esoteric knowledge, the rest are all ignorant jaahils' etc.

This.

I'd like to add, that despite inherently holding these views, many (not all) young Bohras in the West (from fellow teenagers to young professionals) are naturally progressive minded themselves in matters of democracy, truth and justice. I've had the pleasure to be friends with both extreme fanatics and rational analyzers but despite their differences, most do not engage in petty verbal spats (and flared up confrontations). We tend to have cordial and intelligent discussions, even if neither party goes through a dramatic change in views.

Unfortunately, I have not had the same experiences with people from India, Pakistan and Africa. I tend not to argue with them further on these matters (even if they are friends to a level where I should be able to) as their views are absolute to them and their fanaticism tends to be adamant. Like Al Zulfiqar said, it shocks me to the core.

It's times like this I give credence to the liberalized Western education system as even the madrasa's here, despite spouting the same beliefs, have teachers more in tune with critical thinking. Having been a part of it, I feel less narrowminded (although not more intelligent) than cousins and friends in India and Pakistan. Our syllabus was the same, but there seems to be a huge difference on how we were taught to understand it. My peers and I, feel more down to earth, than greater than thou.

[Bohra spring]

Can we try listing the wrong teachings they give out so we can know the issue at large. Before you answer please speak to your kids or kids you know ...

We have to start conversing with the kids affected and correct the poison.

If as Grayson says the western kids are open to logical debate we have to start correcting the wrong.

We have to expand the reform informally by discussing issues that are causing co fusion in the mind of the young.

For example I corrected my nephews thinking by stating that the Prophet is never recognised by a mortal like Diai.

It is the other way round where the Diai may be trying to emulate the Prophet Saw . I used the example that a son is known by the fathers reputation and not other way round. It sunk in him and need not confuse his faith.

He asked me the difference between Shia and Sunni...I related to him it is succession disagreement .

He asked me about lanat on awal sani salis as he has been taught, I asked him if he would be unkind to his uncles , aunts or cousins. so how would Ali As abuse his father in laws step father in law , or hazrat Abubakr be unkind to his step son in law. He accepted this is all fairy tales and we are making too much out of historical stories.

He asked me wearing topi is compulsory in islam and I should not wear Awam in topi , I reminded him that during Hajj the most important ritual we go to Arafat without a topi, how can that be the case. I asked him does he know if Husain As wore a Kasab in topi or a Bedouin head dress......

So we have to take an active part in correcting the twisted learning a so our children are rational moderates.

[Grayson]

"Wrong" is a relative term. Essentially you can say, that whatever we learn and believe in that doesn't conform with generally accepted principles of Islam could be designated as "wrong." Then again, there are people themselves who determine what are generally accepted principles of Islam who may have got things "wrong" themselves. A few things I think:

1.)Most poems that we learn have exuberantly strong diction, that when translated make me sometimes think it's often satirical. Such as Syedi Sadik Ali sahebs works. When I had the nerve to mention that in a class once, my teacher (a very orthodox woman herself) smiled a little and told me I get the gist. Sadly, in other places, these words would be revered as law.

2.)Matters of fiqh consist of excerpts from Ismaili kitaabs. They're generally taught to the point. Same could be said for Akhbar (with a hint of classic anti-Sunni sentiment).

3.)In matters of what most Muslims would claim "bid'ah!", it's in regards to our idiosyncratic teachings. The logic is generally as follows: we perform A, because Syedna said so. Syedna is the representative of Imam who is of the progeny of Rasulallah. Rasulallah, is Allah's prophet who brought about his final and most complete religion. So hence, indirectly, we make it seem like Syedna's farmaans are no different than the Sunnah. This too is the more relaxed view on the matter. Unfortunately I know of people living in Eastern countries that think of it as "you don't do this, you're disobeying God, you'll be damned."

I believe we need to attack the method of thinking more than anything. Difference in learning culture will lead to a difference in understanding of faith. Telling someone they're right or wrong without challenging them to think and ponder upon it on their own wouldn't achieve much either. We need to practice collective Ijtihad, not bigoted Taqlid.

[think]

certainly agree with gray side of grayson. THink, think and think. The kothar as a rule does not want you to think. How many of these sheikhs even understand a word of the quran they are reciting.
Even the bhaisahebs are brainwashed. Here is a prime example. The bhaisaheb who was supposed to join a couple in holy matrimony strictly asked the girl to wear red clothes on that day and everybody must have a saya. Where in the world does it say that the amil dictates what colour clothes the bride is to wear on her wedding day. To think about it; do clothes make a man. He has asked everyone to make certain they come in saya. Just kurta and izzar will not do. Just imagine trhe ignorance of this amil and he is religious head of hundreds of bohris in small town u.s.a.

[think]

also a must, pay all dues, get safai chitthi from the goonda committee and yes regardless I will take hadia of $152 as moula's salaam for my 5 minute performance. Ahappy occasion is turned into a painful saga by this two timer bhaisaheb.

[think]

and such nincompoop bhaisahebs are rampant in this kothar who have the audacity to demand what the bride will wear on her wedding day.

[anajmi]

I've had the pleasure to be friends with both extreme fanatics and rational analyzers but despite their differences, most do not engage in petty verbal spats (and flared up confrontations). We tend to have cordial and intelligent discussions, even if neither party goes through a dramatic change in views.

This reminds of an excerpt from seerat un nabi by Makki al Hijazi. He narrates an incident of being approached by another maulana from some masjid and telling him that they never have any heated discussions in their masjid. Everyone has cordial and intelligent discussions. To this Makki al Hijazi responds - "Phir aapki masjid mein haq ki koi baat hoti hi nahin hogi. Haq Ki baat ho aur logon mein jhagda na ho aisa to ho hi nahin sakta. Haq ki baat par Rasul (saw) ko teen saal tak baraat sehni padhi thi, phir aap kya cheez hain??"

[Grayson]

Apologies for my attempt of Hindi/Urdu:
Jhagda to hoga. Aur hota hain. Lekin uska bhi tariqa hain. Ghussa aur gaali ki zaruri nai hai.
Aaj rasul ka zamaan bhi nai hai, jisme haq ka dalil apunka saamne hai. Islam itna pehla huwa ke baad log unke haq personal samajh per lehta hai. Aur jo log ye maanta hain, dhusro ke saath baat kar ke samajh ko aur samjhata hain. Ghalat ya sahi ki baat nahi hai; sochne ka hai.
Personal ijtehaad haq nahi hai, lekin haq ki taraf hai. Khushi hota hai ke is tarah ka achcha dil or achcha akhlaaq log hai, jo dhusra ka deen aur soch baare me khayaal kar sakta hain.
Ishallah ye dil ki chahat ke saath, dimaag bhi ziyaada tayz hoga. Aur sahi ilm aur soch qaim ho jaye.
Shukr karta hu ke kaafi log hai jo khuda ki khawf karta, pana maangta hai aur wo bhi saaf dil se. Aur jaanta hai ke aakhir main: haq faqat khuda se hai.

[shapur]

Apologies for my attempt of Hindi/Urdu:
Jhagda to hoga. Aur hota hain. Lekin uska bhi tariqa hain. Ghussa aur gaali ki zaruri nai hai.
Aaj rasul ka zamaan bhi nai hai, jisme haq ka dalil apunka saamne hai. Islam itna pehla huwa ke baad log unke haq personal samajh per lehta hai. Aur jo log ye maanta hain, dhusro ke saath baat kar ke samajh ko aur samjhata hain. Ghalat ya sahi ki baat nahi hai; sochne ka hai.
Personal ijtehaad haq nahi hai, lekin haq ki taraf hai. Khushi hota hai ke is tarah ka achcha dil or achcha akhlaaq log hai, jo dhusra ka deen aur soch baare me khayaal kar sakta hain.
Ishallah ye dil ki chahat ke saath, dimaag bhi ziyaada tayz hoga. Aur sahi ilm aur soch qaim ho jaye.
Shukr karta hu ke kaafi log hai jo khuda ki khawf karta, pana maangta hai aur wo bhi saaf dil se. Aur jaanta hai ke aakhir main: haq faqat khuda se hai.

Humko bhi yeh padke bahut khushi hota hain.

So what if your hurdu is a bit gray, topis off to your attempt. Keep it going.

[Qutbi-Hero]

but who were so warped in their thinking after attending sabaks over a long period, that it was shocking to the core.

I have always refused to attend sabaks for just this reason. What else do they teach in them? Do you think there is the potential for creating brainwashed terrorists like the wahabbis?

[Sikander]

I've had the pleasure to be friends with both extreme fanatics and rational analyzers but despite their differences, most do not engage in petty verbal spats (and flared up confrontations). We tend to have cordial and intelligent discussions, even if neither party goes through a dramatic change in views.

This reminds of an excerpt from seerat un nabi by Makki al Hijazi. He narrates an incident of being approached by another maulana from some masjid and telling him that they never have any heated discussions in their masjid. Everyone has cordial and intelligent discussions. To this Makki al Hijazi responds - "Phir aapki masjid mein haq ki koi baat hoti hi nahin hogi. Haq Ki baat ho aur logon mein jhagda na ho aisa to ho hi nahin sakta. Haq ki baat par Rasul (saw) ko teen saal tak baraat sehni padhi thi, phir aap kya cheez hain??"

very true,those who cant stand haq and heated discussion, shud wear Bengals and ghaghra and sit at home....

[humanbeing]

In my personal opinion; MSB in Kuwait is dangerously playing with future of kids. The school does not have legal entity as well as recognition from any academic board or Ministry of education. Few months ago an illegal setup of MSB in the basement of Common Town Hall ( Burhani Markaz) was raised and Amil of Kuwait was in trouble.

After that, MSB activities continued here and there in Regional Town Halls ( Khaitan, Salmiya, Abbasiya) etc. Student of MSB were advised not wear uniform and attend ( Sadly Funny). Later a registered Indian School premises are used to conduct classes clandestinely

MSB is charging higher price then usual legal schools, teachings are done by mullahs and sheikhs imported from india or housewives with good communication.

[humanbeing]

Brainwashing from tender age is ensuring kothar of limited but effective supply of rich slaves. Kothar wishes to keep the bohra fold limited so that it can be controlled, manipulated to its needs and greeds.

Poor bohras are an eyesore to kothar, more like an overhead expenses to keep the rich minority engaged and committed by some philanthropic activities, actually kothar is of such capitalist attitude that; they squeeze money out of every show and pomp they claim to help poor bohras.

Effective education should have been one the prime initiative by kothar to elevate bohras and make them sustainable in this competitive world. But MSB does not specialize anything above grooming for slavery. Even if we consider MSB to be religious school, it promotes Cultish Ideology for :”Kothar Royals” that too at higher prices.

Those parents who are getting swayed in this temporary euphoria will regret their decision of ruining their children’s foundations at hands of this crooks.

I was once travelling from Dubai and met a Jamia Drop out, through the flight we discussed about life at Jamia. Although he was a devout abde of Dai, but was very critical of Jamia functioning. Young lad of 20 years age, was disoriented and confused with his career choices. No school or college was recognizing his past academics to choose his specialization, he enrolled himself with open school in India to complete his +2 ( 11th & 12th) in commerce.

[wise_guy]

This.

I'd like to add, that despite inherently holding these views, many (not all) young Bohras in the West (from fellow teenagers to young professionals) are naturally progressive minded themselves in matters of democracy, truth and justice. I've had the pleasure to be friends with both extreme fanatics and rational analyzers but despite their differences, most do not engage in petty verbal spats (and flared up confrontations). We tend to have cordial and intelligent discussions, even if neither party goes through a dramatic change in views.

Go check out in Houston and you will be wronged... Most of the children and people are die hard abdes there... May be because, most of the people there are 1st generation immigrants and their children 2nd generation so they tend to be nurtured under die hard abde mentality of India, Pakistan, Africa etc... This is not the case in say Chicago or other US cities where the scenario is totally different

[Grayson]

Many (not all).
In Houston's case (and perhaps a few others): few (not many).

[abde53]

Adam Bhai or any body
Every time we do namaz for Sunnat or Washeq, Aamil saheb or Mulla saheb will always say chadti surats padho and they they will say wal-asr sudhi parvahnu but i just happen to see that wal asr is surat number 108 and qul aau zube rabbin naas is surat number 113 so how come these are chadti surats it should be utarti surats. I ask my Aamil and Moalim in Madrasa and they could not answer and told me bhai jaim moula farmave yem karvanu agar tamare wadhare pochwo hoi to sabak maa sharik thavo.
can adam bhai or progticide bhai or aqs bhai please answer --for my knowledge Shukran

[Al Zulfiqar]

Adam Bhai or any body
Every time we do namaz for Sunnat or Washeq, Aamil saheb or Mulla saheb will always say chadti surats padho and they they will say wal-asr sudhi parvahnu but i just happen to see that wal asr is surat number 108 and qul aau zube rabbin naas is surat number 113 so how come these are chadti surats it should be utarti surats. I ask my Aamil and Moalim in Madrasa and they could not answer and told me bhai jaim moula farmave yem karvanu agar tamare wadhare pochwo hoi to sabak maa sharik thavo.
can adam bhai or progticide bhai or aqs bhai please answer --for my knowledge Shukran

bhai abde53,

adam has gone into hibernation because he does not want to earn the 'nakhushi' of mola by participating on a dawat na dushman site. progticide has gone to saifee mahal and is waiting in line to buy a powerful insecticide from the saifee mahal dukaan as his house has been heavily infested by cockroaches and bugs.

i will attempt to answer your question. in kothar's definition 'utarti' is 'chadti'. let me explain. everytime you bow down in sajda (utarti) to mola, mola rises in stature higher and higher (chadti). so your utarti is their chadti. similarly, the more money, gold and najwas you give and your pockets become empty (utarti) the kothar's pockets become heavier and their lifestyle improves (chadti). got it? agar tamare wadhare pochwo hoi to sabak maa sharik thavo. i conduct these sabaks at my dewri every friday night.

[shapur]

Adam Bhai or any body
Every time we do namaz for Sunnat or Washeq, Aamil saheb or Mulla saheb will always say chadti surats padho and they they will say wal-asr sudhi parvahnu but i just happen to see that wal asr is surat number 108 and qul aau zube rabbin naas is surat number 113 so how come these are chadti surats it should be utarti surats. I ask my Aamil and Moalim in Madrasa and they could not answer and told me bhai jaim moula farmave yem karvanu agar tamare wadhare pochwo hoi to sabak maa sharik thavo.
can adam bhai or progticide bhai or aqs bhai please answer --for my knowledge Shukran

bhai abde53,

adam has gone into hibernation because he does not want to earn the 'nakhushi' of mola by participating on a dawat na dushman site. progticide has gone to saifee mahal and is waiting in line to buy a powerful insecticide from the saifee mahal dukaan as his house has been heavily infested by cockroaches and bugs.

i will attempt to answer your question. in kothar's definition 'utarti' is 'chadti'. let me explain. everytime you bow down in sajda (utarti) to mola, mola rises in stature higher and higher (chadti). so your utarti is their chadti. similarly, the more money, gold and najwas you give and your pockets become empty (utarti) the kothar's pockets become heavier and their lifestyle improves (chadti). got it? agar tamare wadhare pochwo hoi to sabak maa sharik thavo. i conduct these sabaks at my dewri every friday night.

Bro AZ has replied in his inimical, humorous style. But jokes apart, the point raised by Abde 53 is a point to be noted and merits a more sober response if anyone has it. Hats off to 53 - Treppan ma Abde ni shaan nirali !

[Grayson]

I find it funny that the people abde53 asked were not able to give a response; doesn't reflect well on them.

My two cents:
It's not Chadti, as numerically it's descending. However, the way most young Bohras (and even a few of my non-Bohra friends) start hifzing the Quraan starts with the 30th sipara going backwards. Meaning from Surat al-Nas to surat an-Naba. So I'll venture to assume that "chadti" is more in regards to the order we hifzed the Surat since a young age rather than it's literal place in the Quran.

A trivial note: as children we'd consider Surats to get longer and harder to hifz the more we went on (in reverse order). Considering that psyche, it was an increase order in how we hifzed (despite being numerically decreasing). It's prayed in washeq's in that reverse 'order', which is likely why it's (wrongly, though not harmfully) said to be "chadti."

Hope it helps.

[shapur]

I find it funny that the people abde53 asked were not able to give a response; doesn't reflect well on them.

My two cents:
It's not Chadti, as numerically it's descending. However, the way most young Bohras (and even a few of my non-Bohra friends) start hifzing the Quraan starts with the 30th sipara going backwards. Meaning from Surat al-Nas to surat an-Naba. So I'll venture to assume that "chadti" is more in regards to the order we hifzed the Surat since a young age rather than it's literal place in the Quran.

A trivial note: as children we'd consider Surats to get longer and harder to hifz the more we went on (in reverse order). Considering that psyche, it was an increase order in how we hifzed (despite being numerically decreasing). It's prayed in washeq's in that reverse 'order', which is likely why it's (wrongly, though not harmfully) said to be "chadti."

Hope it helps.

Good attempt, but somewhat "L-Board"ish. I guess 53 too solicits a more convincing response.

[abde53]

Shapur Bhai
Agree with you, Grayson bhai gave Aamil style response, long lecture and no convincing but good try

[abde53]

Treppan ma Abde ni shaan nirali !

Moula nu karam aney Ehsan

[shapur]

Treppan ma Abde ni shaan nirali !

Moula nu karam aney Ehsan

Say " Allah nu karam ane ehsan " and you could suffix " Ane Mola ni dua si" to it.

[Sikander]

just knowing meaning of surah tawhid is much much better then hifzing whole QURAAN without understanding its meaning and just parroting it : )

wallaho alam

[SBM]

Shapur
Is not another name for Allah is Moula too.....

[shapur]

Shapur
Is not another name for Allah is Moula too.....

In the holy Quran, the word "maula" admits different shades of meaning depending on the context. It could mean "master","lord" when used as an attribute of God, but it could also mean "heir","friend"or "protector" when not used as a divine attribute. In fact, in sura57 verse15 even the fire of hell is called as the "maula" of the disbelievers,ie., their refuge/master/friend. Therefore different shades of meaning are clearly apparent and the word is not used exclusively for Allah.