Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

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JC
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#31

Unread post by JC » Wed May 08, 2013 3:35 pm

Abdes,

Why dont you simply accept and agree that you BELEIVE your DAI to be God or may be Son of God ......... period.


asad
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#33

Unread post by asad » Wed May 08, 2013 11:58 pm

JC wrote:Abdes,

Why dont you simply accept and agree that you BELEIVE your DAI to be God or may be Son of God ......... period.
He is THE GodFather, father of all GODS, "Moolah".

محمد
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#34

Unread post by محمد » Thu May 09, 2013 4:23 am

Imam ALI(s) words on love for ALLAH SUBHANU.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8334

محمد
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#35

Unread post by محمد » Thu May 09, 2013 4:42 am

Zulfiqar bhai, very good post,


I think progticide and Adam again went in purdah for consultation with his muffy masters? :roll:

Humsafar
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#36

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 09, 2013 3:10 pm

The Shias are always at pains to defend the concept of Imamat, especially when the Imam is missing in action. That the Imam is in occultation at a time when the Shia (and Bohra) world needs him the most is a fact that lends itself to much ridicule, and perhaps rightly so. In my opinion, if there were a Imam and was endowed with qualities that believers claim on his behalf he would have come out of hiding a long time ago and righted the wrong. But personal opinions apart, the concept of Imamat is not as outlandish as it is made out to be by detractors.

In Shia theology the Imam is a guide/leader (Ulu al-amr) whose primary function is to expound on the Quran, on its exoteric and especially its esoteric meaning. Now that is not such a bad thing, is it? In fact the Quran does need a lot of explaining, given its language, structure and context of each revelation. So if there is a genuine, qualified guide (with no axe to grind) then what's the harm if he can guide the ummah on the right path? All sorts of mullas and maulvis and scholars present their own version of the Quran all the time. The merit of the Imamat concept is that at least the knowledge would come from a single authoritative source.

In reality it has of course not happened but I'm here just concerned with the pure conceptual and theoretical aspect of the doctrine. If the concept of Imamat had come to pass as intended it would not have been such a bad thing. So in theory, the concept of Imamat as Shia derive and justify it from the Quran is not inherently wrong or bad. If it had been just that it would have been fine. But through history the Imam was gradually idolised and invested with exaggerated powers and qualities.

That's where the problem lies, in my view. And the Bohras have made it worse. The last two Bohra Dais by acting in bad faith and claiming to act on behalf of the Imam have made a mockery of Imamat and turned the Imam into a figure of ridicule. The god-fearing, Imam-guided Dais of olden times never needed to invoke the Imam every step of the way because they didn't need to justify their nefarious deeds. The Imamat and the Imam then (even in hiding) were safe and secure. Nobody was provoked to question "Where is the Imam?" because things were just fine and the absence of the Imam was not felt. But now thanks to the depredations of the last two Dais his absence has never been more acutely felt. Ironically, the Dais have abused the institution of Imamat so much that they have made it impossible for people to believe in it.

So in closing, the concept of Imamat is not a problem. The problem is its gross misrepresentation by the Dais. This is not different from suicide-bombers misrepresenting Islam. Blame the Dais not the Imamat.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#37

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu May 09, 2013 3:28 pm

an excellent post, humsafar!

محمد
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#38

Unread post by محمد » Fri May 10, 2013 12:06 am

"ekwis maa imam purdah maa che, and badha chor purdah naa bahar che?"

doesn't sounds good to my ears.... :cry:

JC
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#39

Unread post by JC » Fri May 10, 2013 10:39 am

Indeed very good post by Bro Humsafar. But as Bro Mohammad has put it, WHERE is Imam?? All the Chors are outside the parda and Imam is STILL in parda??

I guess what we are saying that there was nothing wrong with the concept of Imamat as there was nothing wrong with the concept of Nabuwat ......... but the matter of the fact is after Mohammad there has to be NO NABI, so after ABC Imam, there is and has to be NO Imam. Ahmedis believe their leader to be Nabi and we are agaisnt them so that does not mean we are against concept of Nabuwat ...... what we are saying Nabuwat has ended, let it rest in peace, and so is true with Imamat.

So Bro Humsafar has put it is really the last 2 Dais (and 3 in waiting to do so) have brought so much bad name to Imam and Imamat that people are turning against it - not so against it as such but against Kotharis .... as we all know it is the Leader who eventually suffers.

badrijanab
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#40

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri May 10, 2013 10:47 am

Joota Chappal, the biggest thief were your X, Y & Z. These three Chors were outside the parda and Allah was STILL in parda??
what we are saying Nabuwat has ended, let it rest in peace, and so is true with Imamat.
Prove it from Quran or authentic hadees?

So Bro Humsafar has put it is really the first three have brought so much bad name to Caliphate that mumineen turning against it - not so against it as such but against JC and alike .... as we all know it is the Leader who eventually suffers.

JC
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#41

Unread post by JC » Fri May 10, 2013 11:00 am

BJ,

Here we go again ............. you have to bring in A, B, C and 1, 2, 3 ............ Khilafat has also ENDED, so has Nabuwat and Imamat ........... there will be NO Nabi, Khalifa or Imam ... period.

Who was the LEADER of Khilafat?? Abu Bakr or Ali?? Who has suffered and where do you see suffering?? How may people are against Abu Bakr?? Please do not MIX the topis. Had someone being CLAIMING a Khalifa is Wajib-ul-Wajood but is in Pardah I would have agreed to link these two.

It is totally irrelevant to say 1, 2, 3 were out but Allah was in Pradah ............

You ask me to quote Quran that Nabuwat has ended???? Sorry I am not a scholar but do not we say Mohammad is Khatim-ul-Nabeen?? WHY do you have RAISE doubts on SETTLED issues??

I do not hate Imam or Concept of Imamat but I HATE Kotharis - top to bottom, all and I wish them all bad. I however know and believe is NO Imam is going to come coz if one had to come, he would have, by now. Having said that if an Imam does do his Zahoor I will attend to that when he comes out.

محمد
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#42

Unread post by محمد » Fri May 10, 2013 11:16 am

dekho mere bhaiyyo

jab tak insaan ki akal kamzor thi waha tak ALLAH ne prophet,imam bhejna sahi samjha, aaj insaan ne bahot progress karli hain, isiliye ALLAH ne IMAM or kisi prophet ko bhejna yaa zahir mein rakhna munasib nahi samjha.

ab insaan ko chahiye ke ek ALLAH ki ibadat kare aur apni akal se kaam le, aur sahi aur galat ko khud samjhe.

today we have science and technology and understanding of universe which we never had in history, now ALLAH wants human to walk alone and move forward.

this is just like a baby, who starts walking with holding mothers finger, but once he is bigger he starts walking alone....


samjho to samjho naa samjho naa samjho :wink:

s

anajmi
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#43

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 10, 2013 11:43 am

badrijanab,

Allah is in pardah and that is the reason why he sent the prophets and your Imam to deliver his message so that he could remain in pardah. But unfortunately, his designated Imam also ran into purdah!!

badrijanab
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#44

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am

JC wrote:BJ,

You ask me to quote Quran that Nabuwat has ended???? Sorry I am not a scholar but do not we say Mohammad is Khatim-ul-Nabeen?? WHY do you have RAISE doubts on SETTLED issues??
You originally said that Imamat has ended like Nubuwat - I am asking proof of it (Imamat ended) from Quran or authentic Hadees?

badrijanab
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#45

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri May 10, 2013 11:58 am

anajmi wrote:badrijanab,

Allah is in pardah and that is the reason why he sent the prophets and your Imam to deliver his message so that he could remain in pardah. But unfortunately, his designated Imam also ran into purdah!!
Anajmi,

If Allah can remain in pardah then why can't Imam, the authorized person from Allah?

anajmi
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#46

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 10, 2013 12:05 pm

Well, the only thing Allah has authorized him to do is to remain in purdah. He is, apparently, good for nothing else.

محمد
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#47

Unread post by محمد » Fri May 10, 2013 12:07 pm

comparing ALLAH with any thing is against basic rules of AL QURAAN.

Zali110
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#48

Unread post by Zali110 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:58 pm

anajmi wrote:I have an Imam in concealment in my backyard. If you do not believe in my Imam I will quote Surah Yasin to you

Sura Ya Sin, Aayat# 10 says for you: Whether thou (Imam in backyard) admonish them (badrijanab and abde idiots) or thou do not admonish them: they will not believe (unite).

May Allah forgive me for using the Quran to make a point.
no allah will not forgive you , definetely not , as you making fun of quran natik and using quran sameet to ask for forgiveness , do you recall moulana ali saying , this is quran samit , unspoken quran and i am quran natik , spoken quran , moulana ali is a imam so as his sons imam and qayamat lag imam baqi rehse , sajda baad sajdo , namaaz do you pray even , if you dont believe in imam then why are you even a muslim , change your religion because this makes u a fool to follow a religion you dont even believe in , what kind of mentality do u have are you mentally ill , following a religion you think is wrong , if i new my captian would sink the ship , i would definitely change my ship , i would recommend you do that , unless you are here to sink the ship and are just mere a disguised from another vessel , a vessel of shaitaan , your call

Zali110
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#49

Unread post by Zali110 » Fri May 10, 2013 1:01 pm

excatly thats why islam is a perfect religian as moula ali sa always said ask me questions as i am the world knowledge and as rasullulah say , good question is half the knowledge

badrijanab
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#50

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri May 10, 2013 1:06 pm

anajmi wrote:Well, the only thing Allah has authorized him to do is to remain in purdah. He is, apparently, good for nothing else.
By the same token, it applies for Allah (in purdah).

anajmi
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 10, 2013 1:41 pm

Only in the minds of the mushrik as they do not understand the difference between Allah and the Imam and they think Imam is the same as Allah. I have mentioned this many times before. You have equated Imam to Allah. You are a mushrik. You should realize this and start seeking forgiveness from Allah.

anajmi
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 10, 2013 1:42 pm

Zali,

Belief in Imam is not a requirement to be a muslim. Whoever told you that has probably sold you the great wall of china too!!

Zali110
Posts: 64
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#53

Unread post by Zali110 » Fri May 10, 2013 1:56 pm

anajmi wrote:Zali,

Belief in Imam is not a requirement to be a muslim. Whoever told you that has probably sold you the great wall of china too!!
yes it is the fundamental principal of islam, it seems u r a sunni, your own knowledge proves so , this website is for dawoodi bohra , so leave , as sunnis fundamentals are diffrent from ours , i wont even bother replying to a sunni who believes in the 3 loana , khuda ni lannat on abubaker umar and usman per , say lannat on this 3 and ill reply to u , say اعذبالله اليميع العليم من الشيطان الرخيم

badrijanab
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#54

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri May 10, 2013 1:58 pm

anajmi wrote:Only in the minds of the mushrik as they do not understand the difference between Allah and the Imam and they think Imam is the same as Allah. I have mentioned this many times before. You have equated Imam to Allah. You are a mushrik. You should realize this and start seeking forgiveness from Allah.
Jahil Anajmi, the root cause of the problem is you are intellectually dishonest. I'm not equating Allah and Imam but you are because you are unable to counter the factual logic.

JC
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#55

Unread post by JC » Fri May 10, 2013 2:13 pm

If Allah can stay in Pardah, so can Imam ........ wwooowww so when is DAI going into Pardah..?? and wait can then Mazun and Mukasir also go in Pardah .........
Jahil BJ you CANNOT equate Allah to anyone, anybody, anything .......... Allah is Allah ....... only!!
Allah send Prophets (and may be Imams) to perform some tasks ......... it is their JOB to perform and not to hide, if they hide why did Allah send them in first place?? Can't your understand this simple logic???!!

By the way tomorrow is election in Pakistan and President Zardari has decided he is going to go into Pardah.. :lol:

badrijanab
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#56

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri May 10, 2013 2:19 pm

JC wrote: Allah send Prophets (and may be Imams) to perform some tasks ......... it is their JOB to perform and not to hide, if they hide why did Allah send them in first place?? Can't your understand this simple logic???!!
Allah commands Imam to conceal from general public, then what should Imam do, go against Allah's command? Can't your understand this simple logic???!!

Jahil Joota Chappal (JC), Moosa was servant to Firaun for four decades, he remained in Purdah till right time came!

JC
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#57

Unread post by JC » Fri May 10, 2013 2:20 pm

badrijanab wrote:
JC wrote:BJ,

You ask me to quote Quran that Nabuwat has ended???? Sorry I am not a scholar but do not we say Mohammad is Khatim-ul-Nabeen?? WHY do you have RAISE doubts on SETTLED issues??
You originally said that Imamat has ended like Nubuwat - I am asking proof of it (Imamat ended) from Quran or authentic Hadees?
There is NO Imam present today, so if he is not here it simply means it has ended. Imamat is a concept outside of Quran and Hadees (specifically the concept you believe in and follow). When Nabuwat was there, there always a Nabi present, Mohammad said Nabuwat ended with him and I believe in him AND I see NO Nabi today too. If a Dai says Imam is there then I do not TRUST Dai ....... and even Mr. Taher Saifuddin on oath has agreed there is NO Imam ..........

Now please do not say I do not see Allah so he must not be present ..........

JC
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#58

Unread post by JC » Fri May 10, 2013 2:23 pm

badrijanab wrote:
JC wrote: Allah send Prophets (and may be Imams) to perform some tasks ......... it is their JOB to perform and not to hide, if they hide why did Allah send them in first place?? Can't your understand this simple logic???!!
Allah commands Imam to conceal from general public, then what should Imam do, go against Allah's command? Can't your understand this simple logic???!!

Jahil Joota Chappal (JC), Moosa was servant to Firaun for four decades, he remained in Purdah till right time came!
HOW do you know Allah has commanded this???? Is it because Dai says????? and for how long Imam has been in purdah????

badrijanab
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Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#59

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri May 10, 2013 2:28 pm

JC wrote:
badrijanab wrote: Allah commands Imam to conceal from general public, then what should Imam do, go against Allah's command? Can't your understand this simple logic???!!

Jahil Joota Chappal (JC), Moosa was servant to Firaun for four decades, he remained in Purdah till right time came!
HOW do you know Allah has commanded this???? Is it because Dai says????? and for how long Imam has been in purdah????

Allah by the command: "O you who believe! Obey God, obey the Messenger and the ulū al-amr from among you", (Qurʾan 4:59) - ulu-al-amr will always be present in every era; as per command of Quran - has enjoined upon believers in one verse three acts of obedience, each linked with one another.

It is obvious that obedience to the ulū al-amr is other than obedience to the Messenger and that obedience to the Messenger is other than obedience to God and that one is not accepted without the second nor the second without the third. The address in this verse is to the generality of believers, to those in the time of the Prophet and to those after him, without any distinction.

It is absurd to believe that God would enjoin upon His servants obedience to someone whom He has joined in this verse with Him and the Prophet s.a.w.w. if He had not made him infallible like the Messenger.

Thus, due to the fact that the address is to the generality of believers, the existence of someone (i.e. Imam) to whom obedience is obligatory upon the community is necessary so that they may fulfil this duty.

seeker110
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Re: Ekwis ma Imam purdah ma che!

#60

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:06 pm

badrubhai, does'nt your fairytales give you nightmare. Your sandcastles are falling back into the ocean. Just like Imam disappearing.