Do we have the right to criticise

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Bohra spring
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Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat May 11, 2013 8:32 am

Recent debates between PDB spokesmen and other commentators raises an interesting dilemma

Let us call Abdes BDBs B stands for Burhani , Progs PDB and other reformists FTB FT stands for Freethinking Bohras who may or may not have an ejammat card.

BDB is an exclusive members only community, Reformists in the 60s were excommunicated and were forced out.

When they created a rival PDB they created a separate association. Once this was created they have forfeited their rights to influence, advise or trespass BDB affairs. Had they not created a opposition group and remained deregistered BDB they could claim right of speech and reconciliation .

Once they created a separate group with its own constitution , regardless of their motives they cannot interfere or reform BDB from outside. bDB can claim invasion by outsiders.

PDB is also operating by exclusivity and its constitution states it can permit membership or expel members.

The issue this creates PDB can only hope that members join PDB as alternative society.

However FTB is not registered and should never register , they can remain in BDB as disgruntled members and use their freedom of expression and democratic rights to oppose from inside. If they are expelled they can try to claim intervention from authorities. But if they make the mistake of consciously joining PDB or any registered association they can be accused to have forfeited membership of BDB and loose rights to it.

It is c'mon that associations can ask for exclusivity on grounds of conflict of interest, confidentiality .

Therefore exposing without thought the internal affairs of BDB can be ethically wrong.

Bohra Spring is not a member of PDB and has not renewed his membership of BDB and considers himself as FTB.

Any facilities created by BDB is private property, unless the land or building was waqf. Once the trust is transferred so does the right of use. Hence we can leak information but not use or replicate it.

PDB may want to consider that they should focus on developing their own community and make it attractive so it grows as people defect. Attacking BDB is likely to fail as it will be considered invasive. However FtB can weaken it internally so that they can self reform.

What do other commentators think ..

Purpose of this debate is to see whether the current approach is effective .

PDB spokesmen please explain why you think an outside community registered separately can legally try to force changes on BDB registered as a separate association. If I was an BDB I would have real issues if outsiders would want to trespass.

Do not feel offended but I believe you do claim time and time FTB are not representing PDB , unless we are registered or acknowledge your ideology or conform to our agenda.

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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by anajmi » Sat May 11, 2013 10:23 am

The progressive movement is seen as going no where because, apparently, free thinking is no longer allowed within the "official" reform movement. Why would an abde, who is not allowed to think freely, join another group where he is not allowed to think freely? Can I approach an "official" progressive and say that we should start thinking about replacing the Dai? Ofcourse not. I will be kicked out of the progressive gathering. The progressives have a certain agenda. Only those who agree with that agenda can be a part of it. Free thinking is apparently not a part of the manifesto. So why not be a part of the devil I know rather than the devil I don't?

It seems that the progressive movement is no longer about the individual making progress. It is about the movement making progress even if it is at the expense of the individual.

If you want true progress, neither the kothar nor the progressives truly cut it. Look at them only if you are worried about accounting of money in the here. Neither of these two groups deal with the hereafter. Well, at least the kotharis pretend to!!

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Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by Grayson » Sat May 11, 2013 1:06 pm

What you're arguing applies for every sect of every religion. There becomes a different of faith and thus a separation in path.

The ideal is to cleanse this sect of tyrannical practices, not deem Bohras as heretics of Islam and join another sect. That may have been your thinking, and I'll defend your right to say it, but that doesn't make you any more right than anyone else.

A good deal of religion relies on a leap of faith; you chose one closer to the core, in wrapping yourself around the Quraan as the most paramount authority (it's what it seems to me). And justified yourself accordingly and with a lot more adeptness than anyone who challenges your faith. Others leaped a little later. That doesn't mean they're destined for hellfire and the faith is wrong (despite fanatics of each side believing so); we follow and have faith in our chain of events and attempt to eradicate malpractice of the present instead of denouncing our foundation. Despite all our differences, progressive minded Bohras rally around the same belief. Or atleast a good chunk of it.

Just like there are people who question after the 46th (in my mind, that pretty much becomes a different sect) and nuss that allowed Dawaat's seat to transfer to Hind (Sulaimani's), these divisions splinter as far back as the Prophet himself. Even before Islam (Christians, Jews, etc.) and after (Bahai).

Questioning faith and thoroughly throwing our unique beliefs out the window does not align with reformist principles cause then there would be nothing to reform. You may or may not be right, but it's Allah who'll ultimately decide, with the only certainty you have in regards to your claim relying on your certainty in your faith. Other people of pretty much all religions are no different.

Sometimes it seems to me that many people are on the edge in regards to whether they even believe in this faith or not; if that's their issue they can't be identified and speak on behalf of Progressive Dawoodi Bohra's cause the last two words don't apply anymore (perhaps the last word culturally, but not in regards to faith). And it's fine. They have the right to express their view, as they should. But not when their intentions rely on changing the faith in it's entirety. Not because they're wrong; but because it undermines the core intention of this movement with a completely different stance.

We don't need people who only believe in a particular set of ideals to consider themselves Progressive Bohras. There's a vast difference between identifying yourself as such, and actually belonging to it. As Bohra Spring said, he identifies as Progressive(minded) but he's not a PDB, so while he doesn't represent the actual PDB Youth, he does associate thoughts, sympathies and ideals with them (sorry for speaking on your behalf, correct me if I'm wrong). We need people to unite under common purpose in order to actually try to make a difference.

While I don't think your view should ever be censored, perhaps your way of expressing it should be thought better. Cause it has no contribution to this movement. Criticize as you please, you have the right to. And I'm sure there are many people who think similarly. But it doesn't help when there are people with another staunch belief questioning the very existence of Bohras and indirect the point of any movement to reform it.

Kaka Akela
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by Kaka Akela » Sat May 11, 2013 4:00 pm

I have simple solution in mind, I don't know if it is practical or not.

while we are registering or While we are signing in to post a comment, we should be given 3 boxes or more to select one. without marking this box you are not allowed to post. The 3 boxes will be a) DB b) PDB c) FT -Free thinker or NB- Non Bohra. and your selected box will appear under your name when you post. This will eliminate all the brick and bats and we all will know where the author is coming from, and whether to digest his comments or ignore them. This may require for all the current members to re-register, but that is a small price to pay.

Before I buy any book or read any commentary, I read the bio of the author to gauge how much weight his commentary should be given in my belief system based on his qualifications in the subject he is commenting on.

Why not here????

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Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by humanbeing » Sat May 11, 2013 4:14 pm

The mission statement is loud and clear on the PDB website, a smart honest reader can make the difference between a reformist, free thinker or regressive abdes. Over time every member has created their own personalities through written behavior on this forum.

Kothari agents and fanatic abdes make desperate attempts to label any individual views with official representation of PDBs. Morever every suggestion or ideas has accountability at its base. Whether we choose to stay with bohra doctrines or adapt democratic ways, bottom line of free thinking reformers is to be bring transparency and end the tyranny.

Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by Grayson » Sat May 11, 2013 4:27 pm

Personally against the use of any labels, but if adopted I think it should only be for people who identify as actual Progressive Dawoodi Bohras in order to indicate official response.

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Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by seeker110 » Sun May 12, 2013 12:21 pm

According to my Islamiat teacher in primary school, not to call anyone Kafir, he/she may become Muslim later on in life.
There is only one label for us and that is we are all human. Any other label would divide and separate humans.

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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Do we have the right to criticise


Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sun May 12, 2013 8:24 pm

The reform movement is greater than the PDB agenda....this is fact like it or not. There are reformists in the zada group as well if Qutbi issues are an indication. So not group has monopoly of reforms because we are 1 million people with different aspirations, desires and tolerance. Truth can be a bitter pill but is due.

As the FTB can always appreciate the access the PDB site has given to their views , like wise the PDB has obtained momentum by FTB contributors especially the young and youthful.
It is high time PDB makes a statement that it supports FTBs whether registered or not and we reach agreement to majority of the issues. If FTB and PDB continue fighting interanally... useful effort is distracted from the causes...but this does not mean PDB veto and rail road issues being raised by FTBs.

Dividing into multiple-factions will be gift in the kothar hands. It is quite naive and pity that the 2 sides cannot reach a compromise to align into a stronger opposition. PDB please look carefully into why you have brought this "internal revolt" onto yourselves , what has caused FTBs to dissociate from the PDB agenda....why did PDB not listen to popular changes in times to manage it. Please do not underestimate the resolve or intelligence of reformists on this site, if they are managed they can be very useful, if not handed with care can be harmful.

If PDB cannot attract FTB what chance to you have converting the BDB to your cause. I am more lenient on FTB because they are unstructured and cannot expect sophisticated strategies as individuals, but PDB had the resources , head start and got complacent. The best suggestion is regroup and we try to reconcile and change our ways. This is healthy honest debate try to censure it at your own risk.