Surrogacy Governed by Kothar

[humanbeing]

A couple in small town from Rajasthan ( India) had continuous dreams of Sayedna Mohamed Burahnuddin appearing in the dreams asking a couple to conceive third child. Surprised, they did ‘Arzi” in ‘Vazarat’ and were given a farman that, there is a childless couple in neighboring town, it is advised that couple proceed to conceive third child and give the baby to this childless couple.

Surprised at this arrangements ! Is this legal and ethical ?

[zinger]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

[zinger]

Boss, dont get me wrong but the problem is that you want to look at everything with suspicion.

i agree that most things that kothar does should be cross-checked, but come one bro, questioning a noble gesture like this???

get rid of the blinders for once and see the beauty of the farmaan.

[SBM]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

In Islam a child can not be adopted if parents are alive. Only children who can be adopted are ORPHANS. Why did not KOTHAR ask that childless couple to adopt an orphan child instead asking some one else to conceive from, IS KOTHAR RUNNING ADOPTION AND SEX CLINICS NOW

[Sikander]

there are many yateem farzand in burhanpur madressa, why cant those couple in next town go to burhanpur and adopt one? instead of some body conceiving fresh new child for them?

[humanbeing]

Zinger
In my personal opinion, I feel donating a child to complete stranger is not a good idea. There are many psychological and social concern that revolve around such surrogacy. Foremost, child’s welfare has to be kept in mind.

There are many psychological repercussions that need to be noted. Even legal adoption requires a series of psychological sessions that parents must go through.

I m not sure if Kothar would follow such rules and procedures before facilitating such surrogacy and adoption.
Best possible suggestions to a childless couple are :

Approach a close relative to volunteer surrogacy and adoption of child thereafter.

Go for adoption of an orphan, very noble and generous act indeed.

In the event I posted, I see major negligence and insensitivity of both parents towards yet to be born child, this is due to blind faith in Sayedna’s farman and ‘Maula-ni-dua-si-saru-thase’ attitude.

[shapur]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

In Islam a child can not be adopted if parents are alive. Only children who can be adopted are ORPHANS. Why did not KOTHAR ask that childless couple to adopt an orphan child instead asking some one else to conceive from, IS KOTHAR RUNNING ADOPTION AND SEX CLINICS NOW

This is an interesting take by SBM on which the experts can throw some light. While one is not sure about the stand of the Shariat on this, it does however appeal to reason. There's abundant emphasis laid in the Quran on the rights of orphans , the importance of protecting their property and also the high virtue and pleasure of Allah earnt by doing a good turn to an orphan. Orphanages are also the most sought-after point of disbursement of zakaat among the "ghair-khaum" Muslims. Hence, adoption of an orphan by a childless couple would earn them a double-blessing : a child as well as the virtuosity of parenting an orphan and providing him a family and a normal life.

[shapur]

Zinger
In my personal opinion, I feel donating a child to complete stranger is not a good idea. There are many psychological and social concern that revolve around such surrogacy. Foremost, child’s welfare has to be kept in mind.

There are many psychological repercussions that need to be noted. Even legal adoption requires a series of psychological sessions that parents must go through.

I m not sure if Kothar would follow such rules and procedures before facilitating such surrogacy and adoption.
Best possible suggestions to a childless couple are :

Approach a close relative to volunteer surrogacy and adoption of child thereafter.

Go for adoption of an orphan, very noble and generous act indeed.

In the event I posted, I see major negligence and insensitivity of both parents towards yet to be born child, this is due to blind faith in Sayedna’s farman and ‘Maula-ni-dua-si-saru-thase’ attitude.

Human being has a very pertinent point when he talks about "negligence and insensitivity of the parents" towards the child which they will give away. The act does not strike as one of virtue. Conversely, it comes across as gross injustice and unfairness to a human life, a major decision taken about him without his consent or wish - a cheating of sorts, so to say. Every human born in this world craves for the security, love , cuddle and cosiness of the 2 persons who gave birth to him because this relationship is biological, intimate and irreplaceable.

Its a different thing when the child gets separated from his parents if death snatches them away, sadly.
But to know that they are around and alive and yet he is brought up by a third person would dawn on him as a harsh reality. There are several films with such plots where the child starts hating the parents who gave him away after he comes to know about it bees saal baad.

[SBM]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

First of all this couple did not want to conceive but Syedna decided to come to their dream and Farman was given to them SO WHERE DOES THE QUESTION OF RAISING 3 CHILDREN IS EXPENSIVE COMES? Again brain abde is trying to justify without thinking. How is it morally right thing to do to make a woman suffer for 9 months to carry a child and what happens if there is a complicated pregnancy or child is born with some medical problems, DOES KOTHARI GOONS will take care of them?

[Al Zulfiqar]

it is precisely these types of stupid sms' and brainless, patently false mojizas and fairytales which are taking this gullible community astray.

1. in islam it is expressly forbidden to adopt a child and give it your name (family name). one can take care of a child, orphan or poor, out of humanity and sense of charity as the prophet did, but you cannot make it your own to possess. one can even leave a sum to that child, but without depriving your own children of their rights.
2. a couple who dream of syedna in their dreams exhorting them to conceive another child are obviously delusional fanatics, or need their heads examined by a qualified psychiatrist. did they dream of this crap together during hallucinatory drug trips or were they influencing each other with these stupid stories? maybe one of them, probably the wife, is suffering from repressed physical desires and is starved of love.
3. of all the people they can turn to, they have to seek advice from a dai who is hovering at death's door, his own mind shot and on life-support. someone from his den of thieves and charlatans issues them this diktat - conceive and transfer! sounds like the modern B.O.L.T. (build, operate, lease, transfer) type of PPP (public private partnership) project.
4. is the establishment now keeping records of childless couples? who can afford a baby and who cannot? does every abde/amte confide in their local amil and his begum about their sexual or fertility issues?

and then we have the resident idiot of this forum asking inane questions like, so what's illegal or unethical about it? takes your breath away!

[abde53]

Zinger bhai
I asked my Wali Mulla about this and he told me what you say is not true about adoption. Do you know for sure, did you learn this in sabaque or this is your opinion

[zinger]

hello all, thanks for clarifying. yes, i checked and was sent a pm by another member as to why it should be wrong. i agree. i was mistaken and take my words back.

this member who pm-ed atleast had the decency to give me an explanation rather than just print rubbish and ridicule and scorn and contempt and abuse on this forum as is the case with most of the "senior" members here.

i guess when you are so bitter and have nothing else to do, all you can do is ridicule others

[zinger]

Zinger
In my personal opinion, I feel donating a child to complete stranger is not a good idea. There are many psychological and social concern that revolve around such surrogacy. Foremost, child’s welfare has to be kept in mind.

There are many psychological repercussions that need to be noted. Even legal adoption requires a series of psychological sessions that parents must go through.

I m not sure if Kothar would follow such rules and procedures before facilitating such surrogacy and adoption.
Best possible suggestions to a childless couple are :

Approach a close relative to volunteer surrogacy and adoption of child thereafter.

Go for adoption of an orphan, very noble and generous act indeed.

In the event I posted, I see major negligence and insensitivity of both parents towards yet to be born child, this is due to blind faith in Sayedna’s farman and ‘Maula-ni-dua-si-saru-thase’ attitude.

Hi HB, very true and well said. apologies for my post

[zinger]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

First of all this couple did not want to conceive but Syedna decided to come to their dream and Farman was given to them SO WHERE DOES THE QUESTION OF RAISING 3 CHILDREN IS EXPENSIVE COMES? Again brain abde is trying to justify without thinking. How is it morally right thing to do to make a woman suffer for 9 months to carry a child and what happens if there is a complicated pregnancy or child is born with some medical problems, DOES KOTHARI GOONS will take care of them?

and a typical response from a reformist who only wants to see the black spot on a white blanket.

where did the question of raising 3 children come from? simple, it came from the premise that the couple would probably listen to the farmaan from Aqa Maula and go ahead and decide to have another child. Was that REALLY so hard to follow? surprising so see an intelligent member like you making such silly statements, or was it just to scorn, for the sake of it, another???

It is not morally right to make a woman suffer for 9 months, but it is morally right to hand over the 3rd child to a childless couple who can atleast (and hopefully) ensure that this child gets proper nurturing. again, why are you insulting your intelligence? just to show someone else down, why are you destroying your own common sense?

please, be mature. think of what you are saying.

im admitting im wrong. i was informed and i now take my words back

[zinger]

it is precisely these types of stupid sms' and brainless, patently false mojizas and fairytales which are taking this gullible community astray.

1. in islam it is expressly forbidden to adopt a child and give it your name (family name). one can take care of a child, orphan or poor, out of humanity and sense of charity as the prophet did, but you cannot make it your own to possess. one can even leave a sum to that child, but without depriving your own children of their rights.
2. a couple who dream of syedna in their dreams exhorting them to conceive another child are obviously delusional fanatics, or need their heads examined by a qualified psychiatrist. did they dream of this crap together during hallucinatory drug trips or were they influencing each other with these stupid stories? maybe one of them, probably the wife, is suffering from repressed physical desires and is starved of love.
3. of all the people they can turn to, they have to seek advice from a dai who is hovering at death's door, his own mind shot and on life-support. someone from his den of thieves and charlatans issues them this diktat - conceive and transfer! sounds like the modern B.O.L.T. (build, operate, lease, transfer) type of PPP (public private partnership) project.
4. is the establishment now keeping records of childless couples? who can afford a baby and who cannot? does every abde/amte confide in their local amil and his begum about their sexual or fertility issues?

and then we have the resident idiot of this forum asking inane questions like, so what's illegal or unethical about it? takes your breath away!

what is really illegal and unethical and more so, mind boggling is the sheer stupidity of allowing an asteen ka saap like you to flourish. i have said it before and i say it again, you are a mad dog that needs to be put down, and put down fast

[Maqbool]

Boss, dont get me wrong but the problem is that you want to look at everything with suspicion.

Hope you have understood that what ever written by HB is not a suspicion but the concern is right.

[humanbeing]

A couple who dream of syedna in their dreams exhorting them to conceive another child are obviously delusional fanatics, or need their heads examined by a qualified psychiatrist. did they dream of this crap together during hallucinatory drug trips or were they influencing each other with these stupid stories?.

This dream stories are aplenty in bohra world, I commonly hear many abdes saying how sayedna comes in their dreams and guide them for major decision in their life. It is hilarious to see how people make up stories to keep their legs up in social discussion showing off being a recipient of a mojiza !

is the establishment now keeping records of childless couples? who can afford a baby and who cannot? does every abde/amte confide in their local amil and his begum about their sexual or fertility issues?

Its not surprising ! Kothar has got under everything, gullible abdes confide their personal problem to this deceptive thugs. As they have created an aura of being ‘Raza-na-Saheb’ who is ‘Ghaib-na-Jannaar’.
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@zinger : you are nice & positive person, so in first instance you feel it’s a generous act, you may have posted instinctively. No worries ! Better late then never !
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I m trying to reach out to the couple and share my views, however when discussed with relatives of the couple who appreciate my concern warned me, couples are devout abdes and would completely take me wrong.

[humble_servant_us]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

In islam the concept of mehram/na mehram is very important. If adoption has to be done this law should not be violated.

Upto the age of bulugh the raising of child by different couple could be OK but after child becomes baaligh the lady has to observe hijab from the male child and in case of female the man has to observe the same.

Unfortunately in Bohras the strict gender restrictions are not followed, we easily shake hands with our cousins, elders who are na-mehram to us.

[zinger]

Boss, dont get me wrong but the problem is that you want to look at everything with suspicion.

Hope you have understood that what ever written by HB is not a suspicion but the concern is right.

YES i have. which is why i have taken my words back.

[zinger]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

In islam the concept of mehram/na mehram is very important. If adoption has to be done this law should not be violated.

Upto the age of bulugh the raising of child by different couple could be OK but after child becomes baaligh the lady has to observe hijab from the male child and in case of female the man has to observe the same.

Unfortunately in Bohras the strict gender restrictions are not followed, we easily shake hands with our cousins, elders who are na-mehram to us.

Hi HSU, dont get me wrong, but in todays day and age, talking of merham and non-merham is little outdated isnt it. my personal opinion, honestly.

anyways, maybe there might be a few muslims who follow this religously, but i feel that they are few and far between, and if they do, then it is more to do with where they live.

for instance, what you wrote about keeping merham from an adopted child is little old-fashioned i think.
im not doubting or negating Sharia, i just feel that there was a time and place for such rules and perhaps, in the age of today, they should be relaxed a little

and why just bohras? except for the Taliban and the more strict Muslims, everyone shakes hands and all.

in college, i had a friend yasmeen, a stout Sunni Muslim who would wear burkha at home but remove it in college. while celebrating a victory in a competition once, we hugged as 2 normal friends would.... non-merham yes,...but.....

[Al Zulfiqar]

the couple would probably listen to the farmaan from Aqa Maula and go ahead and decide to have another child. Was that REALLY so hard to follow? surprising so see an intelligent member like you making such silly statements, or was it just to scorn, for the sake of it, another???

..it is morally right to hand over the 3rd child to a childless couple who can atleast (and hopefully) ensure that this child gets proper nurturing. again, why are you insulting your intelligence?

please, be mature. think of what you are saying.

let's re-hash this entire scenario again.

- couple (together) dream of syedna
- couple are issued a 'farman' from syedna in their dreams to have a 3rd child
- couple are confused and seek "expert help" from an ignorant, jaahil, daras trained amil
- couple are advised to conceive this fantasy child, since mola issued them a 'farmaan' in their dreams
- couple are also told that this unwanted fantasy child be 'donated' to a childless couple in another town
- amil of course, under advisement from his masters in saifee mahal, is made aware that records are kept of which couples have extra children and which are childless, the community being behoven to their masters who are aware of every little intimate detail of their slaves' personal lives.
- all forum members mock this ridiculous and stupid story, except one, who rushes to defend his 'love' for anything connected to syedna, even dream sequences, and supports conceiving children and gifting them to others, since syedna 'ordered' it in a dream
- forum members now turn their ire and mockery onto this retard
- said ignoramus now hastily beats a retreat and retracts his apocryphal statements post haste, but persists in his claim that a farmaan from syedna, even if its in a dream is sacrosanct and must be obeyed
- ignoramus, after removing foot from mouth, re-inforces the clear perception that he is no one else but the reincarnation of a previous retard who dreamt of syedna and was relieved of his troubles caused by sexual indiscretions at work
- when pointed out his insanity and incoherent assinine mumblings, said member indulges in abuse and slander and refers to all those who pointed out the folly of his utterances as 'asteen na saanps', 'mad dogs', 'unintelligent fools', 'bitter and frustrated' idiots etc, epithets more suited to himself than others, his ego having been hurt and credibility irredeemably torn to shreds.

who says there is a lack of mirth and comedy on this forum?

[ghulam muhammed]

Adoption is forbidden in Islam and illegal too, for details one can study the Muslim Personal Law which is quite clear on the matter.

This reminds me of an incident some years back when the wife of the richest family in Dubai who in pursuit of a male child gave birth to 6 daughters, the family is hardcore abde hence the Dai was consulted who advised the lady to go in for another child which according to him would definitely be a son but alas 'mola ni dua' didn't work and the lady who was in her mid fifties gave birth to a 7th female child. Needless to say that the lady was shattered and down in grief but the sad part is that inspite of the first hand personal experience the family continues to shower tonnes of money on the Dai by way of whooping wajebats and ziafats !

[Al Zulfiqar]

i am surprised that mola did not recommend a sex-change operation on 3 of the daughters..!! but obviously mola does not have this ghaib nu ilm, not being scientifically learned or computer savvy.

if muffy had been consulted, he would have very wisely recommended that some of the daughters be given away for adoption and exchanged with male babies.

[shapur]

Yes, it is completely legal. Adoption is very legal a process.

Yes, it is ehtical. more than ethical, it is morally the right thing to do given that raising 3 children is expensive and you are giving a childless couple a child.

Now... why are you so concerned if it is legal or ethical??? Do you want to point out some wrong in this too?????

In islam the concept of mehram/na mehram is very important.

Unfortunately in Bohras the strict gender restrictions are not followed, we easily shake hands with our cousins,


elders who are na-mehram to us.

It seems you are really humble all over especially in your reporting. Its like a reporter reporting a storm which killed thousands as just a "light drizzle".
You say "strict" gender restrictions are not followed which implies that otherwise they are !!
Boss, we can boast of being the most liberated, free, progressive, modern, broaaaddd-minded , as far as the free mixing between the genders is concerned.
During occasions when attendance is the highest we are made to squeeze together in and out of the same gate and
our couple's parties, joint gatherings, co-ed schools, pre-engagement dating, salam baithaks, mixed volunteering,etc , etc. make the word" mehram" obsolete, and in the words of hard-core abdes "Old-fashioned","outdated" and "talibanish".

[zinger]

the couple would probably listen to the farmaan from Aqa Maula and go ahead and decide to have another child. Was that REALLY so hard to follow? surprising so see an intelligent member like you making such silly statements, or was it just to scorn, for the sake of it, another???

..it is morally right to hand over the 3rd child to a childless couple who can atleast (and hopefully) ensure that this child gets proper nurturing. again, why are you insulting your intelligence?

please, be mature. think of what you are saying.

let's re-hash this entire scenario again.

- couple (together) dream of syedna
- couple are issued a 'farman' from syedna in their dreams to have a 3rd child
- couple are confused and seek "expert help" from an ignorant, jaahil, daras trained amil
- couple are advised to conceive this fantasy child, since mola issued them a 'farmaan' in their dreams
- couple are also told that this unwanted fantasy child be 'donated' to a childless couple in another town
- amil of course, under advisement from his masters in saifee mahal, is made aware that records are kept of which couples have extra children and which are childless, the community being behoven to their masters who are aware of every little intimate detail of their slaves' personal lives.
- all forum members mock this ridiculous and stupid story, except one, who rushes to defend his 'love' for anything connected to syedna, even dream sequences, and supports conceiving children and gifting them to others, since syedna 'ordered' it in a dream
- forum members now turn their ire and mockery onto this retard
- said ignoramus now hastily beats a retreat and retracts his apocryphal statements post haste, but persists in his claim that a farmaan from syedna, even if its in a dream is sacrosanct and must be obeyed
- ignoramus, after removing foot from mouth, re-inforces the clear perception that he is no one else but the reincarnation of a previous retard who dreamt of syedna and was relieved of his troubles caused by sexual indiscretions at work
- when pointed out his insanity and incoherent assinine mumblings, said member indulges in abuse and slander and refers to all those who pointed out the folly of his utterances as 'asteen na saanps', 'mad dogs', 'unintelligent fools', 'bitter and frustrated' idiots etc, epithets more suited to himself than others, his ego having been hurt and credibility irredeemably torn to shreds.

who says there is a lack of mirth and comedy on this forum?

does the little doggy want another bone to gnaw on?

by the way, mustafanalwalla says hi to you... oh wait, im mustafanalwalla

your post is so full of statements twisted out of context that i need not even bother replying, keep woofing

[humble_servant_us]

Hi HSU, dont get me wrong, but in todays day and age, talking of merham and non-merham is little outdated isnt it. my personal opinion, honestly.

The laws of sharia are to guide humans towards perfection. We have a tendency to accept laws which suit us or we are comfortable with, if it is difficult to follow or accept we try to rationlise it as out dated or not required.

A person who wants to sincerely submit to Allah(swt) will try to observe these laws because he knows his MASTER has set this for a purpose which is for his own welfare.

Due to the culture and society where we live in, we align and adapt ourselves to its evil and it forms a part of our lives but it doesn't mean the good has no place in the society.

[Bohra spring]

I reluctantly comment but this discussion is needs to be within the contest of Islamic ruling

1 how does it consider the belief that Allah will in not granting the parents children in the first place. Assuming the father or mother being infertile. This is para amount , no Diai ruling should contradict it. If father is infertile Is submitting to Allahs will so difficult ?

2 using medics treatment to try to be fertile, eg IVF, etc. was this exhausted, this is halal ? Saifee hospital certified this was not possible at all costs ?

3. now assuming mother is infertile Islam permits marrying second wife so lineage continues , I don't see where was this suggested in the dream.

4 if adapting a child from orphanage the child cannot bear the new family name because it for charitable reasons. So how was this the sudden change in reason.

Surrogacy cannot contravene zina, so the father cannot pregnate a third person who is not a wife, non genetic mother and father conditions cannot occur, womb renting cannot happen if there is gene mismatch .mothers womb cannot be preganted by another male.

Note there is no option 5 and try 123 before innovating new methods...Islam is pragmatic!

Now surrogacy from a third person is not permitted . If one wants to go secular and outside religion let us not getting a religious ok to feel good be a step. Just be brave enough to say I have decided not to follow religious requirements , this Arzi parzi is trying to coverup a wrong to right.

Now if you want modernity and secularism...what about the rights of the child to decide his destiny when he she is a grown up. Don't fool yourselves this will happen and can ruin the relationships after short term happiness . But you can google it up how modern society deals with it. Now you see islam can predict the issues that we take so lightly.

In summary the Diai arzi decided in 5 seconds via email or kadam bosi should never be used to decide on very complex matters ...

I am impressed that the dreams have advanced into solving major sociology and medical problems . Who was the advisor in the dream Mansoos ! One day UN will be solving major crisis in the dream too. I assume Modi is the PM in the dreamworld ...he must have sought dream works advise next time I will inform my Amil that I have paid my wajebat during the sapnoo to Mansoos and see if he is serious and does not double charge Saab aje tin waje phijare sapnoo ayoo ke me ziafat ane wajebat arz Kari, Kabul thayi ane kale apne sapna ma receipt awse...

[zinger]

next time I will inform my Amil that I have paid my wajebat during the sapnoo to Mansoos and see if he is serious and does not double charge Saab aje tin waje phijare sapnoo ayoo ke me ziafat ane wajebat arz Kari, Kabul thayi ane kale apne sapna ma receipt awse...

ha ha ha.. nice one

[zinger]

Hi HSU, dont get me wrong, but in todays day and age, talking of merham and non-merham is little outdated isnt it. my personal opinion, honestly.

The laws of sharia are to guide humans towards perfection. We have a tendency to accept laws which suit us or we are comfortable with, if it is difficult to follow or accept we try to rationlise it as out dated or not required.

A person who wants to sincerely submit to Allah(swt) will try to observe these laws because he knows his MASTER has set this for a purpose which is for his own welfare.

Due to the culture and society where we live in, we align and adapt ourselves to its evil and it forms a part of our lives but it doesn't mean the good has no place in the society.

agreed...

[shapur]

The laws of sharia are to guide humans towards perfection. We have a tendency to accept laws which suit us or we are comfortable with, if it is difficult to follow or accept we try to rationlise it as out dated or not required.

A person who wants to sincerely submit to Allah(swt) will try to observe these laws because he knows his MASTER has set this for a purpose which is for his own welfare.

Due to the culture and society where we live in, we align and adapt ourselves to its evil and it forms a part of our lives but it doesn't mean the good has no place in the society.

agreed...

Ok.