No forgiveness without intercession

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
porus
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#31

Unread post by porus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:58 pm

I perfectly understand what the Imam is saying. I do not see the link between what he is saying and ayat 26:100 which he quotes in support.

Let me leave this subject for now. I will return to it at a later date, Inshallah. Others may carry on if they so wish.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#32

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:31 pm

Adam wrote:So who's your source/authority?
the one who created this universe and everything in it, a pure and FREE source, while you drink from a source which has millions of contaminants in it - bacteria, germs, pathogens and viruses. the even bigger tragedy is that you and all abdes are forced to pay for drinking this polluted water = poison.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#33

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:39 pm

Adam wrote:
As for BADRI JANAB, he can PM me when he gets his mind in place.
what you are saying is after he (badrijanab) gets his mind in place he should get in touch with an insane idiot living in fantasy land, so that he suffers a relapse again??!

anajmi
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#34

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:01 pm

In any case, Shia are included among Muslims and Prophet is their Intercessor too. Why would they need an Imam when they already have the Nabi?
This is something that I posted a year ago and I have been making similar posts for many years before that.
One other thing, Allah says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) has been sent as a mercy to all mankind. So if we were to assume that there will be intercession on the day of judgement, we can pretty much guarantee that the prophet (saw) will be the one to intercede on our behalf. Tradition tells us that he will ask for forgiveness for all of his ummah. Assuming that Allah accepts his intercession, we won't need intercession from anyone else. If his intercession is not accepted, then the chances that someone else's intercession will be accepted are pretty much zero.

humanbeing
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#35

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:13 am

Will a bohra be eligible to receive intercession if he is unable or not paid monthly sabeel ?

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#36

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:35 am

humanbeing wrote:Will a bohra be eligible to receive intercession if he is unable or not paid monthly sabeel ?
what sacrilege! not paying money??? :shock: :shock:

allah has allowed intercession from the dawoodi bohra leader only on the condition that the intercessee (abde) pays money to the intercessor (syedna) as demanded from him and does sajda to the intercessor (syedna).

this is dawoodi bohra belief.

simple.


Adam
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#37

Unread post by Adam » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:00 am

porus wrote:I perfectly understand what the Imam is saying. I do not see the link between what he is saying and ayat 26:100 which he quotes in support.
Let me leave this subject for now. I will return to it at a later date, Inshallah. Others may carry on if they so wish.

@PORUS
The link is simply,
The day the 'bad guys' will say "we have no Shaafe'een" (ayat of the Quran), we, the Imams will do Shafa'at for our Shias.
He is referring to that ayat above.

Since PORUS has left this conversation, so will I.
He's probably the only one on the opposition with a brain.
The rest are just rants of Wahabis and confused people 'claiming' to be Muslims/.

humanbeing
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#38

Unread post by humanbeing » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:39 am

Adam

I appreciate your responses on this topic which were food for thought ! you have explained the standard bohra belief. The questions I raised were actual and practical implications to those beliefs, which you chose to not answer.

Most likely you will direct me to local amil, which has been a standard backout response by Kothari empathazires on this forum.

anajmi
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:50 am

Adam is a knowledgeable ignorant who has been taught to put 2 and 2 together to come up with 5. 26:100 shouldn't be taken in isolation. Read that ayah in context of the previous ayahs.

26:92 and they will be asked: “Where now is all that you were wont to worship
26:93 instead of God? Can these [things and beings] be of any help to you or to themselves?”
26:94 Thereupon they will be hurled into hell – they, as well as all [others] who had been lost in grievous error,
26:95 and the hosts of Iblis - all together.
26:96 And there and then, blaming one another, they [who had grievously sinned in life] will exclaim:
26:97 “By God, we were most obviously astray
26:98 when we deemed you [false deities] equal to the Sustainer of all the worlds
26:99 yet they who have seduced us [into believing in you] are the truly guilty ones!
26:100 And now we have none to intercede for us,

Replace the people above with the bohras. Forget about what Imam Jafar Sadiq is saying as he will be questioned too. Imam Jafar Sadiq is represented in ayah 26:98 - a false deity. When he is removed from the equation by Allah, bohras will be beating their heads saying - "And now we have none to intercede for us"!!!

26:92 and they will be asked: “Where now is all that you were wont to worship
26:93 instead of God? Can these [things and beings] be of any help to you or to themselves?”

These ayahs fit to the Adams like a glove!!

anajmi
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#40

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:56 am

10:18 and [neither will] they [who] worship, side by side with God, things or beings that can neither harm nor benefit them, saying [to themselves], "These are our intercessors with God!" Say: "Do you [think that you could] inform God of anything in the heavens or on earth that He does not know? Limitless is He in His glory, and sublimely exalted above anything to which men may ascribe a share in His divinity!" -

Another ayah that applies to the Adams. He always says - "These are our intercessors with God!"

porus
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#41

Unread post by porus » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:56 am

anajmi wrote: Imam Jafar Sadiq is represented in ayah 26:98 - a false deity. When he is removed from the equation by Allah, bohras will be beating their heads saying - "And now we have none to intercede for us"!!!

26:92 and they will be asked: “Where now is all that you were wont to worship
26:93 instead of God? Can these [things and beings] be of any help to you or to themselves?”

These ayahs fit to the Adams like a glove!!
Adam,

I hope you will not be tempted to respond to the above. He promised to stay away from the forum for the month of Ramadan. A Wahhabi promise!

At issue is a fine line between shafaa'at and wasaa'il.

In the dua that Bohras recite after Iqamat, reproduced here, Allah is being addressed to grant the stations of both the 'Shafaa'at' and 'Waseela' to Muhammad. I think that there may be a good reason why the distinction is made. I am currently attempting to address this issue.

Dua recited after Iqaamat:

"allahumma rabbad daawatit taamma; was salaatil qaa'ima(ti),
aa'ati Muhammadan su'alahu yawmal qiyamati,
wa ballig-hu ad-drajatal waseelata min al-jannati
wa taqabbal shafaa'at-hu fi ummatihi
wa ja'alni min khairi saalihi ahliha amalan".

Translation:

"Ya Allah, Lord of the perfect Daawat and eternal salaat,
Grant Muhammad his petition on the Day of Judgment,
And exalt him to the rank of your waseela in Jannat,
And accept his shafaa'at for his Ummat,
And include me among those in his Ummat who do khair amal.

anajmi
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:09 pm

A promise broken to preserve the word of Allah from being manipulated is a promise worth breaking. Allah doesn't need me but I am doing it for myself. Time for you to run and hide and whine. I am back.

And no, I am not worried about Adam responding. He is too much of a coward. Posts and people who stump him are the ones that he runs from. He only likes to discuss with people who are good at pussyfooting around the issue!!

anajmi
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#43

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:26 pm

Here is another manipulation by Adam and his Dai.
Ayat in Surah Isra
يوم ندعو كل اناس بامامهم
Thank you brother Muslim First for sending me this information. This is the complete ayah - 17:71

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ يَقْرَؤُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلاَ يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلاً

17:71 one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]: whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand -it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair's breadth:

Allah will call you with your Imam and put your record in your left or right hand? what the heck is that supposed to mean? The reason why people like Adam quote only half of the ayah is because the full ayah would cause confusion and would invalidate their beliefs. The Imam referred to over here is the same Imam referred to in Surah Yasin. It is your record. Allah will call you with your record of deeds and place it either in your right hand or your left hand.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#44

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:44 pm

Adam wrote: He's probably the only one on the opposition with a brain.
yes, to that i will agree, but do not attempt to imply that you have one too. fools and idiots like you have sold their souls and brains to the devil. esp. some of those devils that reside in mahals and bohra masjids who brainwash gullible simpletons like you at secret sabaks.

and oh btw, if you have the half the brain you claim to possess, answer the question posted earlier by humanbeing:

"Will a bohra be eligible to receive intercession if he is unable or not paid monthly sabeel ?"

idiot!

humanbeing
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#45

Unread post by humanbeing » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:07 pm

[2:48] وَاتَّقُوا يَوْمًا لَّا تَجْزِي نَفْسٌ عَن نَّفْسٍ شَيْئًا وَلَا يُقْبَلُ مِنْهَا شَفَاعَةٌ وَلَا يُؤْخَذُ مِنْهَا عَدْلٌ وَلَا هُمْ يُنصَرُونَ
And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided.

seeker110
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#46

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:58 pm

Live your life anyway you choose, at the end find someone who can move your file. I understood it to be Pay or get Paid.

Adam
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#47

Unread post by Adam » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:07 am

Since Porus is back. So am I :)

To set the record straight, and clarify MANY misconceptions about Shafa'at and Waseela (@PORUS I understand there are slight differences between the two, but for brevity we'll just use both together, as they apply for the same people at a time).

1. ALL SUNNIS, SHIAS (Dawoodi Bohras Included) believe in the concept of Shafa'at and Waseela.
It is ONLY the Wahabis that deny this totally. The only difference is that the Sunnis believe in the Shafa'at of Rasullulah and Prophets, while the Shias also believe in the Imams.

Quoting a VERY FAMOUS SUNNI POET, who's Qasida is recited on every occassion about Rasullulah
His name is Imam al-Busiri, and he's written the 'Qasida al Burdah' written in the 11th Century. (It is also so popular that it is inscribed in under the nose of the WAHABIS above the Grave of Rasulullah in Medina.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qa%E1%B9%A ... a_al-Burda) - which is recited by all sects of Islam.
The Qasida is the famous مولاي صل و سلم دائما ابدا
ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/بردة_البوصيري‎

FOCUS on the 3rd line in the above Qasida, namely - هو الحبيب الذي ترجى شفاعته
(Translation: He is the "habeeb" (beloved of Allah) - whos SHAFA'AT is seeked.)
You can listen to the Qasida, from the below link. The mentioned bayt is played at 1min:40sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSnMKmNvLmU

This is the source of the problem. There are Wahabis who deny the Shafa'at.

If you don't accept the Shafa'at of Rasullullah, you are neither Sunni nor Shia = you are a Wahabi = Non Muslim. (According to the above posts namely : anjami, Muslim First, humanbeing & seeker110 deny the concept of Shafa'at totally.

This is the source of the problem.

Once you accept the concept of Shafa'at for Rasullullah, you being to understand the meanings in the Ayats:


Ayat al Kursi
مَن ذَا ٱلَّذِى يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُۥٓ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِۦ 2|255
Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? (Ie, only those who have permission to intercede can intercede, each sect believe their leaders are these chosen people)

21|26|وَقَالُوا۟ ٱتَّخَذَ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًۭا ۗ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ ۚ بَلْ عِبَادٌۭ مُّكْرَمُونَ
21|27|لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُۥ بِٱلْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِۦ يَعْمَلُونَ
21|28|يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ٱرْتَضَىٰ وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِۦ مُشْفِقُونَ
[21:26]
And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour.
[21:27]
They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His Command.
[21:28]
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).

The above two ayats explain that Shafa'at (intercedence) is for a "Special" few. It is up to interpretation of each sect of Islam as to WHOM these people are.


It is in the PLURAL form, ALONG with Rasulullah, there are OTHERS that do Shafa'at.
It is upto each sects interpretation of the Quran to decide whom they believe will do Shafa'at.

SUNNIS - Prophets and Rasool
SHIAS - Prophets, Panjatan & Imams
DAWOODI BOHRAS - Prophets, Panjatan, Imams & Dai Satr
WAHABIS - Less fortunate/deprived/damned

SBM
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#48

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:14 am

WAHABIS - Less fortunate/deprived/damned
And they still sit on the largest Oil Reserves on Earth and still control Holiest Mosques in the World :?: :?

humanbeing
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#49

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:52 am

Adam wrote:If you don't accept the Shafa'at of Rasullullah, you are neither Sunni nor Shia = you are a Wahabi = Non Muslim.[/b][/u] (According to the above posts namely : anjami, Muslim First, humanbeing & seeker110 deny the concept of Shafa'at totally.
Adam
Have you answered my questions ? Well try, whenever you grow a spine !

Adam
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#50

Unread post by Adam » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:26 pm

SBM wrote:
WAHABIS - Less fortunate/deprived/damned
And they still sit on the largest Oil Reserves on Earth and still control Holiest Mosques in the World :?: :?
Just like a Wahabi to be proud of his wealth.
Materialistic wealth. For the time being.
Spiritual wealth and intercession. Never.
Who's the loser now?
[/color]

Adam
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#51

Unread post by Adam » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:32 pm

@Humanbeing
You quoted the following Ayat:
[2:48] وَاتَّقُوا يَوْمًا لَّا تَجْزِي نَفْسٌ عَن نَّفْسٍ شَيْئًا وَلَا يُقْبَلُ مِنْهَا شَفَاعَةٌ وَلَا يُؤْخَذُ مِنْهَا عَدْلٌ وَلَا هُمْ يُنصَرُونَ
And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided.


And I quoted the Ayat:
21|26|وَقَالُوا۟ ٱتَّخَذَ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًۭا ۗ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ ۚ بَلْ عِبَادٌۭ مُّكْرَمُونَ
21|27|لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُۥ بِٱلْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِۦ يَعْمَلُونَ
21|28|يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ٱرْتَضَىٰ وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِۦ مُشْفِقُونَ
[21:26]
And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour.
[21:27]
They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His Command.
[21:28]
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).

The above two ayats explain that Shafa'at (intercedence) is for a "Special" few. It is up to interpretation of each sect of Islam as to WHOM these people are.


Although they seem contradictory (one says Shafa'at wont be accepted, and the other says it will be, by a selected few). The answer is very simple, and it's given in the second Ayat.
Shaf'at will NOT be accepted by 'anyone' for anyone rather it will only be accepted by the 'selected few'. I'll leave that up to you to WHOM these selected few are.
Also mentioned in this Ayat
Ayat al Kursi
مَن ذَا ٱلَّذِى يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُۥٓ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِۦ 2|255
Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? (Ie, only those who have permission to intercede can intercede, each sect believe their leaders are these chosen people)


Where the Shafat cannot be done by 'anyone', but only those whom have PERMISSION.

I clarified OUR standpoint on the two Ayats.

What's your stand point on the TWO ayats I mentioned? It would be interesting to know.
Who are these "servants raised to honour"?


SBM
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#52

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:35 pm

Adam wrote:
SBM wrote: And they still sit on the largest Oil Reserves on Earth and still control Holiest Mosques in the World :?: :?
Just like a Wahabi to be proud of his wealth.
Materialistic wealth. For the time being.
Spiritual wealth and intercession. Never.
Who's the loser now?
[/color]
Adam
And how about Syenda and his Cohorts are extorting large sums of money from poor abdes. the three lines you wrote, should it not also apply to
your masters too and here they are
Just like a Wahabi to be proud of his wealth.-----Just like Kothari Goons to be proud of looting poor abdes
Materialistic wealth. For the time being.--------- Materialistic wealth looted from poor community
Spiritual wealth and intercession. Never--------- Spiritual Wealth none and intercession with hidden --always (that is what you

porus
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#53

Unread post by porus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:39 pm

I am just jotting down a few thoughts. They are not my final views. I am still pondering over them.

Most people need a waseela = 'means of approach' to be close to Allah in accordance with 5:35. They would follow those mentioned in 4:69. Even for that, they would need help. How best to follow those mentioned in 4:69?

Bohras may use the Dai as their waseela. What they mean by that is that they are letting it be known to Allah that he believes him to be one of those mentioned in 4:69, and that he worships Allah in accordance with his teaching.

Waseela is established in this sense as a person or persons among awliya. But the Waseela, the person himself, must intercede for his follower. Let us add to this the concept of rank = 'darajaat'. In that case maybe, and only maybe, it works like this:

Petitioner invokes his waseela, say, a Dai, Imam or Prophet.
Dai intercedes on his behalf with the Imam
Imam intercedes on behalf of the Dai with Rasulullah
And finally, Rasulullah intercedes on behalf of the Imam with Allah. This final step is established in the Quran.

Can the Dai or Imam intercede directly with Allah? I suppose they could if they have permission. But we do not know if they do. Only the Prophet appears to have that permission.

This indicates a difference between waseela and shafaa'at. However, I am still not clear what shafaa'at really is or why it is needed. But Allah has mentioned it so there must be something in it.

porus
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#54

Unread post by porus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:10 pm

I want to address the issues raised in another thread about 'paying' for intercession.

We have established that only the Prophet has permission to intercede with Allah.

We do not know if any one else has the permission to intercede with Allah.

If you decide to follow a person who you believe is the Righteous servant of Allah, for example a Dai, you may invoke him as your waseela. You do not know if your waseela has the permission to intercede. You only believe and hope that he has.

Your waseela need not know that you are invoking him as your waseela. Remember, your prayer is between you and Allah alone. Only Allah can forgive. Your waseela has no authority from Allah to forgive you. This means that if your waseela demands money for interceding with Allah on your behalf, then you can assume that he is a fraud. He cannot possibly know if he has that permission. (I am aware that Adam has quoted Imam Jafar al-Sadiq as saying that Imams will be intercessors for their Shia. I am not convinced. I doubt if he would say that.)

My opinion is that we should invoke waseela as people we know are free from 'rijs'. They are ahlul bayt, that is, Panjatan. We are on a very safe bet there. Because of ayat 33:33, we can be certain that if anyone, apart from Prophet, who can intercede on our behalf with Allah, they will be Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain. For the rest, we cannot be certain.

anajmi
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:36 pm

According to porus, as per an earlier post, ayah 33:33 is from amongst the ambiguous ayahs of the Quran. Allah says in the Quran that people who dwell upon the ambiguous ayahs are those who have darkness and mischief in their hearts. I wouldn't rely too much on any interpretation of an ambiguous ayah as the person offering such an interpretation would be one with darkness in his heart. I would rather go with the clear ayahs of the Quran and get my faith straightened out through those ayahs instead.

progticide
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Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#56

Unread post by progticide » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:01 am

porus wrote:My opinion is that we should invoke waseela as people we know are free from 'rijs'. They are ahlul bayt, that is, Panjatan. We are on a very safe bet there. Because of ayat 33:33, we can be certain that if anyone, apart from Prophet, who can intercede on our behalf with Allah, they will be Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain. For the rest, we cannot be certain.
Refer Holy Quran 4:59...now lets consider this:
Here Allah is prescribing the order of obedience....i.e Allah, Messenger and those with authority.
Allah ofcourse is beyond any comprehension of sin or fallibility, so no debate.
Messenger, as evident from ayat 33:33 is free from "rijs".
Those with authority.....who are they? Ali, Hasan, Husain.....they too are free from "rijs" as per ayat 33:33. But, wait a minute....does the chain of authority end with Imam Husain....there is nothing in this ayat suggesting so. So the chain of authority continues to next Imam and so on....until the Day of judgement.
If you may accept this argument, but again raise objection wrt the infallibility or "free from rijs" requirement of the Imams beyond the ones included in ayat 33:33. For this, return to the ayat 4:59 and ask yourself a simple question. For future generations after Imam Husain, Would Allah ordaine obedience to those Imams who Allah has not made infallible?
Thus, if Allah has not specified any discount on the measure of obedience among those with authority (i.e between those present in ayat 33:33 and ones that would come after them) , it would be erroneous and a falacity on our part to limit the attributes of infallibility between those with authority.
Hence, the chain of intercession is pretty clear for DBs.... Prophet-Panjatan Pak- Aimmat Tahereen-Dai e satr.

Adam
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#57

Unread post by Adam » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:56 am

@PORUS
This indicates a difference between waseela and shafaa'at. However, I am still not clear what shafaa'at really is or why it is needed. But Allah has mentioned it so there must be something in it.

Shafa'at = Forgiving one sins and shortcomings.
Vaseela = Is way to Allah through his appointed authority (Prophet/Imam/Dai Satr).


We have established that only the Prophet has permission to intercede with Allah.
We do not know if any one else has the permission to intercede with Allah.

Wrong.
We do. As mentioned in the PLURAL form in the Ayat, there are OTHERS (عباد مكرمون servants raised to honour.).
21|28|يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ٱرْتَضَىٰ وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِۦ مُشْفِقُونَ
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and THEY offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and THEY stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).

This means that if your waseela demands money for interceding with Allah on your behalf, then you can assume that he is a fraud.

No Waseela has demanded such things for intercession.

(I am aware that Adam has quoted Imam Jafar al-Sadiq as saying that Imams will be intercessors for their Shia. I am not convinced. I doubt if he would say that.)

"I" haven't quoted it. I have posted it from a SHIA website. The same quote is in Daim ul Islam. Which the DBs also follow (so do the Proggies). If you don't believe in the Shafa'at of the Panjatan and Imams, you aren't a SHIA.

My opinion is that we should invoke waseela as people we know are free from 'rijs'. They are ahlul bayt, that is, Panjatan. We are on a very safe bet there. Because of ayat 33:33, we can be certain that if anyone, apart from Prophet, who can intercede on our behalf with Allah, they will be Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain. For the rest, we cannot be certain.

Yes & No.
I have stated this many times, (also mentioned by progticide above), that ayat 33:33 doesn't name the people precisely. You interpret it as Panjatan ONLY. We have more. It all depends on which Tafseer you follow. You seem to accept any Tafseer that confirms what you "already" believe, and reject what other Tafseers differ on (like anajmis Tafseer).



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#58

Unread post by porus » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:07 pm

Adam/Progticide,

I accept that there are others besides the Prophet who can intercede if they have Allah's permission. My point is that the Quran does not specify who they are. If you believe that someone has that permission, then you should be confident enough but you will not know if your confidence is misplaced or not until the Day of Judgment.

Waseela can be anyone you believe is righteous.

My 'certainty' on Panjatan Pak is based on the Quran and the hadiths of Ahl al-kisaa and thaqalayn. I have also accepted that the Quran refers to the progeny of Muhammad through Fatima as "ulul amr". Unlike the Shia, I do not believe that 'free of rijs' or 'infallibility' applies to anyone other than Panjatan.

When we refer to Imams after Husain as "ulul amr", we are outside the territory of the Quran. That is the reason for my lack of certainty. Also, we enter into political machinations involving different claimants to Imamat. For those who are convinced that their claimants are the 'true' ulul amr, then who am I to contradict them? In the final analysis, it comes down to faith and belief and we leave the realm of speculation and logic.

alwan
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:57 am

Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#59

Unread post by alwan » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:19 pm

Adam wrote:Just clarifying th above.

Which part of this didn't you understand:

Imam Jafar saying:
وأعطانا الشفاعة في شيعتنا
(We have been given the Shafa't of or Shias in our hands)

والله لنشفعن في شيعتنا
(I swear by Allah, we will do Shafa'at of our Shias.)

In any case, Shia are included among Muslims and Prophet is their Intercessor too. Why would they need an Imam when they already have the Nabi?

Ayat in Surah Isra
يوم ندعو كل اناس بامامهم
(We will call upon every people by their Imam.)
Each peoples Imam of the time will do shafat of their people.
Like I mentioned, it's a link Imam > Prophet > Allah

Since you've mentioned you don't understand/accept the thought. It's best to leave it as it is.

As for BADRI JANAB, he can PM me when he gets his mind in place.

Adam, i stumbled upon your post about 017:071 On the day when We shall call all men with their Imam, and whoso is given his book in his right hand -- those shall read their book, and they shall not be wronged a single date-thread

If Imam of the Time will do shafaat to God for the people of His time, then there is no room the Prophet in between.
and if that is so, then your formula Imam > Prophet > Allah is not valid.
The formula should read simply as Imam > Allah

Can you point out where i am wrong in deducing your post ?

alwan
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:57 am

Re: No forgiveness without intercession

#60

Unread post by alwan » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:03 am

porus wrote: Your waseela need not know that you are invoking him as your waseela. Remember, your prayer is between you and Allah alone. Only Allah can forgive. Your waseela has no authority from Allah to forgive you. This means that if your waseela demands money for interceding with Allah on your behalf, then you can assume that he is a fraud. He cannot possibly know if he has that permission.
009:103 Take of their wealth a freewill offering, to purify them and to cleanse them thereby, and pray for them; Your prayers are a comfort for them; God is All-hearing, All-knowing.