Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

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james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#31

Unread post by james » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:21 am

Are you using stonewalling when you get cornered

Do you have a dictionary of the definitions of daily life affairs from 700 ad, because according to you life should be exactly the same...I am waiting for you and your master to be wearing a Bedouin cloth and riding a camel in that case.
Bohra Spring
There isn't a single corner where you have backed me against . Not even one . There is unequivocal ruling on all types of Insurance as far as Islam is concerned . You want to discuss " Takaful " , you are quite welcome to it . But if you want to prove it Islamic , you will have to bring examples of it from the Sunnah of Prophet or in the light of Quran . Your text means nothing if it talks about ancient Arabian tribes and nothing from hadith of Rasulullah SAW .
Now what I suggest since this is a reformist site you let us debate and enlighten the people who want to discuss intellectually. But I know I will need to some how meander through your commentary .

Don't fool yourself into thinking the old seasoned reformists take you seriously . They gladly piss on your intellect. I am still laughing at your intellect dictating people vote and decide the Dai Mutlaq . :mrgreen:
No hard feeling I am enjoying your company gives me an insight and confirmation into the modern day abde mind and thought process.
Ah Yes ! You are enjoying my company so much that you had to send a threatening PM as an icebreaker . Keep your psycho bullshit for someone who is willing to fall into your trap .

Bohra spring
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#32

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:08 am

For James

The second tier has come to battle..notice the change in tone...James the pawn has asked for James the cavalry..this is now really exciting..we should have a topic called the " battles of James and company "
In the name of Allah, We praise Him, seek His help and ask for His forgiveness. Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever He allows to fall astray, none can guide them aright. We bear witness that there is no one (no idol, no person, no grave, no prophet, no imam, no dai, nobody!) worthy of worship but Allah Alone, and we bear witness that Muhammad (saws) is His slave-servant and the seal of His Messengers.
Dear and Beloved Brother, the concept of ‘insurance’ per say in its essence is not prohibited in Islam; it is the ‘riba’ or interest element, which is the financial back-bone of modern day conventional insurance, is what has been declared haraam and absolutely prohibited in Islam.
At the times of the Prophet Mohamed (saws) and the Rightly Guided Khalifahs, there was a system of ‘Bayt-ul-Maal’ or ‘central treasury’ of the Islamic State, which if needed, would play the role of being the insurers of its citizens….and when one amongst the citizens was burdened with a calamity or necessity which was beyond their means, the leader of the believers had the authority to relieve the person of his burdens and compensate the loss amount from the ‘bayt-ul-maal’.
Thus insurance in its essence is not what is prohibited in Islam, it is the interest element involved in modern conventional insurance which is deemed absolutely forbidden in Islam. Alhamdolillah, today there are many Islamic Insurance companies who provide insurance in various categories in accordance with Shariah and interest-free principles.

Health insurance is a modern issue that had not been known before – not by this name, nor by anything remotely resembling it. It is problematic in that it resembles life insurance which is certainly unlawful. However, health insurance differs from life insurance in a number of important ways.

1. Life insurance is a contract built upon the unknown. It has uncertainty with respect to the amount that has to be paid as well as with respect to the duration of time. Health insurance differs in that it is a contract for a benefit that is present or has the legal status of being present. Therefore, the contract is free of the unknowns and uncertainties that are inherent in life insurance and that make the life insurance contract an invalid one.

2. Life insurance is a contract of obligatory compensation, like a rental contract, and therefore must be free of unknowns, uncertainties, and the consumption of wealth without right. Health insurance, on the other hand, is a type of ongoing service contract. Such a contract accommodates a degree of unknown factors and uncertainty that is not tolerated in compensatory contracts.

Health insurance can be understood within the framework of Islamic Law as being a service contract with a fixed commission – known in classical Islamic legal texts as a ji`âlah contract. The jurists have stated within this context that the following would be a valid, legal contract: “Whoever tends to the patient until he recovers from his injury, sickness, or conjunctivitis, then he will receive such-and-such stated monetary compensation.”

Ibn Taymiyah writes:
The evidence for this is that it is permissible for a doctor to set a fee for healing a patient, in the same way that the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) took a number of sheep for the recovery of the district chief. They had treated him by way of ruqyah until he recovered and then took the pre-agreed remuneration. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) concurred with them in what they did, saying: “Apportion for me with you a share.”

The compensation was set was for recovery and not for the reading of the ruqyah itself. If on the other hand, a doctor is given a mandatory fixed wage for achieving the recovery of the patient, it would not be allowed, since it is not within his power to cure the patient. Allah might cure him or He might not do so. [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ]
At present, insurance companies are commonplace, many of them offering health insurance. It may be that having such insurance is a necessity for a man and the members of his household. Unfortunately, most of these insurance companies do not comply with Islamic Law in their mode of operation. When dealing with such companies is a matter of necessity or obligation, there will be no problem in doing so. However, when doing so is merely a matter of personal preference, it is my opinion is that the policyholder should never draw from the policy more than he has paid into it, even if his medical expenses exceed that amount.

And Allah knows best.

salsabeel
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:38 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#33

Unread post by salsabeel » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:07 pm

i repost this for james to comment, since he seems to vanish when cornered.
salsabeel wrote:
james wrote: Islam has ruled Insurance as haram . Perhaps reform is needed in Islam (Nozubillah ) . What do you say ? Let's start by first reforming Islam ( Nozubillah ) . How do you wanna proceed ? Petitions ? CIA ?
What do you have to say about the mandatory car insurance and the mandatory health insurance that all bohra in the United States possess, as dictated by law of the land. Maybe you and your puppeteers are planning to have all their followers leave the western lands.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#34

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:08 pm

Lets take this Haraam and Halal adjectives a bit further............... According to Muffy and bohra clergy, taking interest from bank is haram but then it is not haram to rent his properties to the same banks !! There are many dawat properties given on rent in Mumbai, Surat and other cities.

Lets go a little more further........... Alcohol is haram but according to Muffy and bohra clergy, renting out properties to Liquor shops is not haram !! Dawat has rented out its properties at Glamour building, Arthur bunder road, Colaba, Mumbai to liquor shops.

So how much ever one breaks his head it zeroes down to "Hame je kahiya e karo, hame je kariye e na karo", behave like Gandhiji's 3 bandars !!

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#35

Unread post by james » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:20 am

salsabeel wrote:i repost this for james to comment, since he seems to vanish when cornered.
Don't jump the gun . Read the thread and then comment before embarrassing yourself. I have already replied to you by addressing your name because of similar issues raised . http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 19#p126841

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#36

Unread post by james » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:14 am

Bohra spring wrote:For James

The second tier has come to battle..notice the change in tone...James the pawn has asked for James the cavalry..this is now really exciting..we should have a topic called the " battles of James and company "
You are incredibly childish.
Dear and Beloved Brother, the concept of ‘insurance’ per say in its essence is not prohibited in Islam; it is the ‘riba’ or interest element, which is the financial back-bone of modern day conventional insurance, is what has been declared haraam and absolutely prohibited in Islam.
The author is either dishonest or genuinely is not well versed in fiqh of Islam . In addition to usury , there is this small element of "chance" attached to insurance which is deemed haram in Islam . ( I say small because the author thought it was irrelevant to disclose that )
Rightly Guided Khalifahs
Joke obviously.
At the times of the Prophet Mohamed (saws) and the Rightly Guided Khalifahs, there was a system of ‘Bayt-ul-Maal’ or ‘central treasury’ of the Islamic State, which if needed, would play the role of being the insurers of its citizens….and when one amongst the citizens was burdened with a calamity or necessity which was beyond their means, the leader of the believers had the authority to relieve the person of his burdens and compensate the loss amount from the ‘bayt-ul-maal’.
This is a clear distortion of the term " Bayt ul Maal " . During the time of Prophet Mohammed SAW , people didn't pool funds and called it " Bayt ul Maal " and then paid one of them out of it in times of hardship, The Prophet SAW distributed funds according to his own will and intellect . If one of the people was burdened with calamity , He may have helped that person . But that is called " charity " or " Inayat " , whatever you have to call it . It is certainly not insurance like it is claimed .
Health insurance is a modern issue that had not been known before – not by this name, nor by anything remotely resembling it. It is problematic in that it resembles life insurance which is certainly unlawful. However, health insurance differs from life insurance in a number of important ways.

1. Life insurance is a contract built upon the unknown. It has uncertainty with respect to the amount that has to be paid as well as with respect to the duration of time. Health insurance differs in that it is a contract for a benefit that is present or has the legal status of being present. Therefore, the contract is free of the unknowns and uncertainties that are inherent in life insurance and that make the life insurance contract an invalid one.
The author of the article is clearly a moron and so is the one endorsing the article in a " battle " . Death is unknown yet illness is not ?
2. Life insurance is a contract of obligatory compensation, like a rental contract, and therefore must be free of unknowns, uncertainties, and the consumption of wealth without right. Health insurance, on the other hand, is a type of ongoing service contract. Such a contract accommodates a degree of unknown factors and uncertainty that is not tolerated in compensatory contracts.
Life insurance companies are obligated to pay and the Healthcare insurance companies are not ? :roll:
Health insurance can be understood within the framework of Islamic Law as being a service contract with a fixed commission – known in classical Islamic legal texts as a ji`âlah contract. The jurists have stated within this context that the following would be a valid, legal contract: “Whoever tends to the patient until he recovers from his injury, sickness, or conjunctivitis, then he will receive such-and-such stated monetary compensation.”

Ibn Taymiyah writes:
The evidence for this is that it is permissible for a doctor to set a fee for healing a patient, in the same way that the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) took a number of sheep for the recovery of the district chief. They had treated him by way of ruqyah until he recovered and then took the pre-agreed remuneration. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) concurred with them in what they did, saying: “Apportion for me with you a share.”

The compensation was set was for recovery and not for the reading of the ruqyah itself. If on the other hand, a doctor is given a mandatory fixed wage for achieving the recovery of the patient, it would not be allowed, since it is not within his power to cure the patient. Allah might cure him or He might not do so. [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ]
Ibn Taymiyyah ? Seriously ? If this is the same Ibn Taymiyyah I think it is , then you ( Bohra Spring ) are a " Biddati " ( Innovator ) according to him . After all you did visit the Prophet's grave . :mrgreen:

zinger
Posts: 2066
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#37

Unread post by zinger » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:48 am

Akhtiar Wahid wrote:
true_abde wrote:@akhtiar wahid - you are one of the dumbest persons i have come across in a long time...
Dear True_abde bhai,

I can understand your pain and suffering after what you have been through, 1st your mental illness, then top of that the extortion of muffy. Now you have come down so low that you cannot comprehend the issues and questions which are of reform by nature, so you ultimately decided to call names and resort to vulgarness.

have you ever taken the trouble to read what you write? have you ever seen how vulgar and uncouth your language is? peppered with words like kamina and haram khor??? boy oh boy, kahan kahan se aa jaate hain yeh log :roll:

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#38

Unread post by true_bohra » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:55 am

and yet they call themselves PROGRESSIVE.... :shock: :| :wink:

M Taha
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:56 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#39

Unread post by M Taha » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:39 am

zinger wrote:
Akhtiar Wahid wrote: Dear True_abde bhai,

I can understand your pain and suffering after what you have been through, 1st your mental illness, then top of that the extortion of muffy. Now you have come down so low that you cannot comprehend the issues and questions which are of reform by nature, so you ultimately decided to call names and resort to vulgarness.

have you ever taken the trouble to read what you write? have you ever seen how vulgar and uncouth your language is? peppered with words like kamina and haram khor??? boy oh boy, kahan kahan se aa jaate hain yeh log :roll:
oh wow, an abde talking about ethics, why dont you listen to your master waez and come back to teach other about respect?

https://www.mixturecloud.com/media/ZosuJlnW

"buro to nai lagu ne? " ROFL

btw I personally think HARAM khor and kamina is a respectable word used for an abde, I dont know why u take it offensive :wink:

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#40

Unread post by true_bohra » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:58 am

if you think its is not offensive and a respectable word then better use it for your family n friends...they will give you a respectful reply...

M Taha
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:56 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#41

Unread post by M Taha » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:14 am

true_bohra wrote:if you think its is not offensive and a respectable word then better use it for your family n friends...they will give you a respectful reply...
fortunately non of them comes in ABDE category, but u do, so I will stick with useing this respectable terms for you and your alike :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#42

Unread post by salaar » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:16 am

been reading different comments on life insurance, as a matter of principle in islam life or any sort of insurance is prohibited as by doing so you stop believing on Allah subhanaho rehmat and start relying on the human protection and support as for countries where such practices are mandatory you are left with no choice but to go ahead with whatever you are forced to ask, i give you an interesting account of my incometax lawyer who is also a bohra, now in a place where i live tax commissioners frequently asks for bribes, this guy takes handsome fees from his clients every year and when there arise a situation where tax people harrass his clients he puts two options one is to keep fighting the case sincerely although it is really cumbersome process and waste of time, the second option is to take the bribe money and simply pass it over to that tax guy therefore i presume that places where life insurances are mandatory why go into unnecessary debate just pass on the money taking it as another government tax

zinger
Posts: 2066
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#43

Unread post by zinger » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:46 am

true_bohra wrote:if you think its is not offensive and a respectable word then better use it for your family n friends...they will give you a respectful reply...
bhai, i have already exposed him for what he is. dont waste your energy on him.

i had something else also that i wanted to expose about him, but i chose not to, because of the agreement i have had with bohra spring

i do hope admin taking note of the abusive language here :!:

salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#44

Unread post by salaar » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:25 am

Dear All there is a humble request that i want to make on this forum, we are here to talk about certain issues on which our ideologies differ but i suggest we should all exercise utmost mannerism and tolerate each other comments without giving names like MUFFY and so on please iam not posing as a hardliner but at the same time i would ask you to stop this unethical language, i hope you all understand and as such we can carry on enlightening each others knowledge without hurting anybodys sentiments

questions
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:11 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#45

Unread post by questions » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:10 am

Dear True_abde bhai,

I can understand your pain and suffering after what you have been through, 1st your mental illness, then top of that the extortion of muffy. Now you have come down so low that you cannot comprehend the issues and questions which are of reform by nature, so you ultimately decided to call names and resort to vulgarness.[/quote]


have you ever taken the trouble to read what you write? have you ever seen how vulgar and uncouth your language is? peppered with words like kamina and hahram khor??? boy oh boy, kahan kahan se aa jaate hain yeh log :roll:[/quote]
oh wow, an abde talking about ethics, why dont you listen to your master waez and come back to teach other about respect?

https://www.mixturecloud.com/media/ZosuJlnW

"buro to nai lagu ne? " ROFL

btw I personally think HARAM khor and kamina is a respectable word used for an abde, I dont know why u take it offensive :wink:[/quote]

So muffy says hazrat Ali ( as) the Bab ul ilm himself has asked women to gootofy topis and stitch ridas !!!! The man is stark raving mad , surely even brain dead Abdes can see that ,right ?

mohamedshah
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:40 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#46

Unread post by mohamedshah » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:05 pm

James - please note Imam Ali Ibne Ab Talib (AS) and Imam Hassan Ibne Ali (AS) are considered Rashidun (Rightly Guided) Caliphs, so avoid mocking the term Rightly Guided Caliphs.



3.4 Islamic Insurance – Takaful
"Takaful is an Arabic word meaning guaranteeing each other. An Islamic insurance (Takaful) industry observing the rules and regulations of Islamic Sharia law has developed in recent years, which in common with Islamic banking avoids interest, excessive uncertainty and gambling. However this concept has been practiced in various forms for over 1400 years based on shared responsibility in the system of aquila as practiced between Muslims of Mecca and Medina, which laid the foundation of mutual assistance insurance – Takaful based on risk pooling and sharing today. Although some Muslim scholars consider any form of insurance to be against the concept that Muslims believe in God, who is the provider and sustainer of all and is based on the following verse from the Holy Quran “Who, when a misfortune overtakes them, say: 'Surely we belong to Allah and to Him shall we return'.". (Sura Al-Baqara, Verse 156)

Takaful is based on the concept of social solidarity, cooperation and mutual indemnification of losses of members. It is a pact among a group of persons who agree to jointly indemnify the loss or damage that may inflict upon any of them, out of the fund they donate collectively. The Takaful contract so agreed usually involves the concepts of Mudarabah (partnership in profit), Tabarru´ (to donate for benefit of others) and Ta-Awun (mutual assistance or sharing of losses) with the overall objective of
eliminating the element of uncertainty. Even though all Muslims believe in the will of Allah who is the owner of everything and we are merely his stewards, the steward had a duty to protect the assets given to him in trust by the owner, hence justification for a Sharia compliant Islamic alternative Takaful to conventional insurance. This view point for Takaful is justified based on the following Islamic jurisprudence sources.

Basis of Co-operation Help one another in al-Birr and in al-Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety): but do not help one another in sin and transgression. (Holy Quran Surah Al-Maidah, Verse 2) and Allah will always help His servant for as long as he helps others. (Hadith Narrated by Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal and Imam Abu Daud)
Basis of Responsibility The place of relationships and feelings of people with faith, between each other, is just like the body; when one of its parts is afflicted with pain, then the rest of the body will be affected. (Narrated by Imam al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim)

One true Muslim (Mu‟min) and another true Muslim (Mu‟min) is just like a building whereby every part in it strengthens the other part. (Narrated by Imam al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim)

Basis of Mutual Protection: - By my life, which is in Allah‟s Power, nobody will enter Paradise if he does not protect his neighbor who is in distress. (Narrated by Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal)

Key Elements of Takaful
Mutual Guarantee: Loss covered by donations of members in fund which pays out losses.
Ownership of Fund: Contributors are owners of fund, hence entitled to the profit.
Elimination of uncertainty: Donations are voluntary and no pre-determined benefits.
Management of Takaful Fund: Operator uses either Mudaraba (Partnership) or Wakala (Principal Agent relationship ) contract to manage funds, which are Sharia compliant.

Investments Conditions:
Avoids interest and haram (prohibited) activities for investment."

The Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) has also said to a bedoin "Trust in Allah but tie your camel"

Bohra spring
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#47

Unread post by Bohra spring » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:09 pm

If one watches how James operates one can see how Jamia and the youth are trained to serve their masters.

what is James motive, it is to derail discussions, criticise publicly recognised research, attack commentaries ...but does not explain ther position ..they rely on words like it is faith or the Diai has commanded so must be right even if the contradiction between what the Prophet SAW or Respected Imams commanded, and if they don't succeed they challenge the narrator of not being a mumineen so must be wrong and recent days it is without raza.

.so when a questioning abde a who is trying to breakout of the abde spell , is still nervous, person trying to form a view on contemperory issue is left confused and may retreat and remain conservative.

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#48

Unread post by james » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:26 am

Bohra spring wrote:If one watches how James operates one can see how Jamia and the youth are trained to serve their masters.

what is James motive, it is to derail discussions, criticise publicly recognised research, attack commentaries ...but does not explain ther position ..they rely on words like it is faith or the Diai has commanded so must be right even if the contradiction between what the Prophet SAW or Respected Imams commanded, and if they don't succeed they challenge the narrator of not being a mumineen so must be wrong and recent days it is without raza.

.so when a questioning abde a who is trying to breakout of the abde spell , is still nervous, person trying to form a view on contemperory issue is left confused and may retreat and remain conservative.
Let the witch hunt begin ! Stop your stupid psycho analysis bullshit and come back to the topic.

There isn't any spell on Islam where Insurance is concerned. Please post the source of the publicly recognized research you posted. Let's see how many Ulema of various fiqh recognize the research that you posted.

You have skirted almost all the issues I raised against your publicly recognized research . Which leads me to believe you are another lackey like Muslim First who has not idea how to defend ludicrous articles and then diverts the topic at hand by more goading . I call your attention towards :

1) Did people in Rasullah SAW's era pool funds to exclusively help the contributors of that fund to help in case of a disaster . Did Rasullah SAW himself authorize such a fund ?

2) Is there no " Chance " ( somewhat gambling ) attached to Insurance ?

3) Is an event of Illness " Known " as opposed to death ?

4) Are Healthcare Insurance companies not " Obligated " to pay as opposed to Life Insurance Companies ?

Lastly , if you believe in the words of Ibn Tamiyyah then I suggest you repent for visiting the Prophet SAW's grave to save you from being a " Biddati " .

Come back to me with answers to these simple 4 questions and don't forget to post the source of the " Publicly recognized research "

PS : It wouldn't surprise me if I received another threatening PM from you after reading this post .

Bohra spring
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#49

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:05 pm

James I am trying to ignore you that is why I will not waste my and others time in reading my response to you

shehzada
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Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#50

Unread post by shehzada » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:19 pm

Bohra spring - You are right. The diff between most people on this board and (James/Fulan) is that they are getting paid for their opinions. Hell, I'd do the same if my job depended on bombarding every forum with propaganda. Let the guys earn their living.

zinger
Posts: 2066
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#51

Unread post by zinger » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:27 am

Bohra spring wrote:James I am trying to ignore you that is why I will not waste my and others time in reading my response to you
I think you should answer it. Considering that you were so gung-ho about it until now.

please do put your counter POV forward. We would like to hear it (no sarcasm or pun intended. purely out of encouraging debate)

james
Posts: 586
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Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#52

Unread post by james » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:06 am

Bohra spring wrote:James I am trying to ignore you that is why I will not waste my and others time in reading my response to you

If there ever was an award for " Most Pathetic Cop-Out " , you would be in a league of your own . :wink:

Bohra spring
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#53

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:58 am

james wrote:
Bohra spring wrote:James I am trying to ignore you that is why I will not waste my and others time in reading my response to you

If there ever was an award for " Most Pathetic Cop-Out " , you would be in a league of your own . :wink:
Look the point is I don't need to convince you because you will not, it is the liberal minded Bohras I care for. They can do their own research they know what is haram and halal by the expanding on what has been described so far.

I take hospital insurance and hope to get the same expensive health facilities as did SMB . :) those who don't well keep your harzan application forms ready and budget for your treatment .

Now unless you want a duel ..

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#54

Unread post by james » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:18 pm

Bohra spring wrote:
james wrote:
If there ever was an award for " Most Pathetic Cop-Out " , you would be in a league of your own . :wink:
Look the point is I don't need to convince you because you will not, it is the liberal minded Bohras I care for. They can do their own research they know what is haram and halal by the expanding on what has been described so far.

Now unless you want a duel ..
What you have described so far has been a load of tosh . If it was all about caring for liberal minded Bohras , you could have posted the source of article , said that you have no idea on how to defend the article and that they are better off doing their own research . There is no duel , it is one sided . :mrgreen:

Go on , post the source of publicly recognized research and answer the four questions put to you for the sake of liberal minded Bohras . :wink:

I take hospital insurance and hope to get the same expensive health facilities as did SMB . :) those who don't well keep your harzan application forms ready and budget for your treatment .
There is absolutely no comparison . Next , you will say Interest is alright as you want to become as rich as Bill Gates. You make up as you go along.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#55

Unread post by Nietzsche » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:38 am

James, advice:

Unless you wish to continue being figuratively body slammed by SBM, avoid bringing up what is and isn't permitted in islam... In my opinion, this sequence considerably dilutes any additional arguments you make:

"Islam has ruled Insurance as haram . Perhaps reform is needed in Islam (Nozubillah ) . What do you say ? Let's start by first reforming Islam ( Nozubillah ) . How do you wanna proceed ? Petitions ? CIA ?"
-james


Islam also ruled to celebrate Dead Person's birthday as Haram and collecting Najwa on dead person's body ,(Nozubillah) What do you suggest.
Islam also prohibited sending Lanaats to their own relatives (Nozubillah) Even Syedna Taher Saifuddin in his Nashihat said not doing Ghibat of any Mumin. What do say to Muffadal and his elks sending lanaat to their own Blood, What do you say JAMES more Nozubllilah
-SBM

Nietzsche
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Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#56

Unread post by Nietzsche » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:39 am

James is right about insurance being haram though, according to a few advisory websites.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#57

Unread post by Nietzsche » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:49 am

I know that shias do not like the first few caliphs, but weren't they responsible for putting together the written copy of the Quran?

salsabeel
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:38 pm

Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#58

Unread post by salsabeel » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:16 am

james wrote:
canadian and salsabeel ,
It is agreed by most fiqh that it is permissible to pay for an insurance policy where it is the law of the land by a respective Government . Some fiqh say , Take policy , claim for it when any untoward incident happen , then take excess money and give it to charity . Some fiqh say , take policy and claim for it and then donate the entire sum to charity , Bohras are told by their Duat Mutlaqeen to take policy if it is mandatory and if not taking it runs contrary to the law of the land .However, we cannot claim on it . Bohras in USA and other countries take third party vehicular insurance and don't claim even if there is an accident . Ofcourse , there may be individual cases where Bohras may have taken life insurance policy and other variants . May Allah Ta'ala give them tawfeeq to do away with such policies .
ok james, rather than saying most fiqh or some fiqh why dont you provide these proofs. secondly, all bohras claim and 'use' the third party vehicular insurance when there is an incident, infact i can provide you with names of two aamils and countless bohras who have done so. what you are stating is that even if something is haraam ie insurance, duat mutlaqeen have given an ok to use it if the law of the land requires it! Really? Are islamic laws so fickle according to you. the fact is that you are proving yourself to be ignorant about these issues. everyone in the business of trade has to have insurance. its part of a healthy society so one persons misfortunes dont effect others and it is spread out so no one falters in a big way. If insurance was haram we could have all very well lived like the aamish and given up worldy comforts and driven bullock carts. No law of the land forces anyone to own a car.
Last edited by salsabeel on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

SBM
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Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#59

Unread post by SBM » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:18 am

James
Simple question if Health Insurance is Haram why do the people at Saify Hospital run by Kothari Goons are accepting Health Insurance payments from the people who do have Health Insurance in India and why do Aamils in UK use the Govt facilities run with Govt run Health Insurance plans.
What would Kothari Masters and their Aamils will now do in USA where they will be required to have Health Insurances under Affordable Health Care Act aka Obama Care. Are they going to petition USA and UK that it is Haram and they will not participate.

james
Posts: 586
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Re: Health Insurance is'nt it haram according to 52nd Dai

#60

Unread post by james » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:21 am

Nietzsche wrote:James, advice:

Unless you wish to continue being figuratively body slammed by SBM, avoid bringing up what is and isn't permitted in islam... In my opinion, this sequence considerably dilutes any additional arguments you make:

"Islam has ruled Insurance as haram . Perhaps reform is needed in Islam (Nozubillah ) . What do you say ? Let's start by first reforming Islam ( Nozubillah ) . How do you wanna proceed ? Petitions ? CIA ?"
-james


Islam also ruled to celebrate Dead Person's birthday as Haram and collecting Najwa on dead person's body ,(Nozubillah) What do you suggest.
Islam also prohibited sending Lanaats to their own relatives (Nozubillah) Even Syedna Taher Saifuddin in his Nashihat said not doing Ghibat of any Mumin. What do say to Muffadal and his elks sending lanaat to their own Blood, What do you say JAMES more Nozubllilah
-SBM
There isn't any slamming whatsoever. SBM is at best , a troll who goes off on a tangent . I refuse to be held ransom by a troll. I have already replied to his off topic distractions in this thread. You can have a look at it and comment if you deem it necessary ,