What has reform movement achieved?

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Improvisator
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:37 pm

Reform? What reform?

#1

Unread post by Improvisator » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:19 am

Okay I have read enough being said about the Bohras, and now I would like to ask a few questions to you all.

The Holy Quran states:
"Lakum din-o-kum va le ya deen" You follow your religion and we follow our religion. So mocking about the Bohras is non sense because it is irrational, and inappropriate. If you all feel you can have a better community among yourselves, fine! Join it. Don't come in Bohra's Majlis see what they do, then mock about it. I would basically term you all as 'munafekeen'.

From the Quran (surat 2, ayat 14 and 15). It states that when you (munafekeen) meet the Mumenieen, you say we are mumins and to others you say we are not with them we are with you, we just when there to make fun of them, and mock. Indeed, Allah will mock at them (muanfekeen).

My point is, you either stay a sincere Bohra, follow all its customs, or leave. There is no space for reform from peole who don't understand the religion itself.

Now let me answer some of your arguments. You say where did this word 'Maula' come from? The Prophet (S.A.W) stated in front of 70,000 Muslims that Ali is your Maula. And that title has been passed on from Him, to Imams and Duaat, and to the 52nd Dai, His Holiness (TUS). Believe it, stay, if not leave our relegion.

I saw someone recently post "why do we not ask other people to join our religion?". Answer: Our relegion is open for all. If you are ready to follow all the rules and regulations of our community you may enter. There is no force.

You mock about Bohras doing matam. Its a spiritual thing and it will be hard for you all to understand because your brains are totally sunk in the materialistic world. Also the Prophet(S.A.W) said that he who cries on my son's martyrdom, Husain, he will be guaranteed Jannat(heaven).

So all I see is, this is a place for mockery for you all. You don't know much about the shariah. I don't see why you need to reform!

(Please NO dirty language in this thread.)

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#2

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:37 pm

Dear Improvisator,

The issue is not about "moula", "matam" and other such things. The fundamental thing is that the present Bohra priesthood has strayed away from the core values of Islam and Shariah and Fatimid traditions. Please read the extensive literature available on this website about Bohra history and reformist agenda. If you are here to blindly defend the current system then no argument can sway you. If you're here to learn and understand then there's plenty of stuff here. Welcome.

Improvisator
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Reform? What reform?

#3

Unread post by Improvisator » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:40 pm

Well but what about reform? There is nothing called reform in Relegion. If you believe and accept it, stay a Bohra, if not, move on.

I am not here to defend Bohras, I am here to see what is the point of YOU all reformists? There is no such thing in religion. Accept or Reject, NO reform.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#4

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:57 pm

Dear Impro,

You've have no idea what reforms we are talking about. Nobody is trying to reform "Religion" here. The reform movement is about bringing reforms in the way the affairs of the community are conducted - from jamat level democracy to accountability at the highest level. There is extensive material on this website to inform you about who reformists are and what they stand for. Please read and understand then we can have an informed discussion.

kalim
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#5

Unread post by kalim » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:03 pm

The reform movement is not about religion. It is about social issues. For example, a few key demands of the reformists are transparency in handling community property (including financial resources), reduction in financial burden on common Bohras and non-interference in secular matters. If you read some of the literature on the struggle by reformists you will learn of the horrific trauma and difficulties they have had to face to get these simple demands met. This literature is not all written by reformists. Some of it is written by former judges of the Supreme court, can be found in court proceedings and also newspaper accounts. If you read these it is possible that your faith in the goodness of your demi-god will be a bit shaken. So I suggest, for your own good, you spend no more time reading and remain in fairyland.

Also, this is a free board. If someone criticizes the da'i they do it in their individual capacity. The reformists accept the da'i's position. However, this does not mean that they will blindly follow him and his administration if they do not stick to well established principles laid down in the last 1000 years. The da'i , in the absence of the imam, does not have the authority to modify the religion in a manner he wishes. This has been a principle followed by all duats in the past. Hence, sometimes religion and social issues get intertwined.

Finally, what is this "take it or leave it" nonsense? What gives you the authority to determine this? Please do not use such silly arguments. The system is corrupt and needs to be fixed for the good of all. That is the simple thing which the reformists are trying to achieve. The administration, of course, will portray the Reformists as some sort of demons, but they are just as good, gentle, kind and helpful as any other Bohra. Do not be deceived by the rather nasty discourse on this board. Most of those who engage in foul mouthed debates are here to grind their own axes: Sunnis who hate everyone, Isamilis who think they have to defend their imam and Orthodox and Progressive Bohras who seem to think abuse is the best speech. That is not how majority of Bohras (Orthodox or Reformist) behave. So do not be hasty to judge.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#6

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:24 pm

Br. Improvisator

AS

As a Muslim I must inform you that any Tariqa uses "Lakum din-o-kum va le ya deen" to justify their action has not understood the Sura in question. The Sura is addressed to "Kafiroons" that is non-believers of Islam. Muslim is one religion and all Muslims are required to follow 5 duties of Islam.

Eid Mubark

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#7

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:25 pm

Today, Eid day, seems to be an auspicious day, with some of the old regulars showing up. Great to see you again Klaim. And nice post, as always.
Hope Porus and Zulfiqar won't be far behind!!!

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#8

Unread post by Smart » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:16 am

@improvisator

Let us understand a few fundamentals:
You talk about lakum deenakum - okay.
Now explain to me why so many Bohras are unhappy, but afraid? It is because the Syedna and his kotharis don't allow them this principle. They will use all tools, including forcing wives to divorce their husbands to brow beat people into remaining in the fold. All important occassions such as marriage and death are used for blackmailing people into submission. Why do you people beat up those who have the guts to point out the truth? Talking about lakum deenakum is fine, but practice is difficult. It is only when things becomes difficult and you cannot reason with logic, this principle comes out as a convenient tool.

Quote you - I would basically term you all as 'munafekeen'.
Now look who is calling names and mocking others who don’t agree with you?

Allah will mock at them (muanfekeen).
Stop pretending to understand Allah's mind. You don't have a monopoly. The whole culture of mocking comes from the orthodoxies and their leaders. The waaz and such other fora are full of laanat and such other gaali galoch. Has ever reason touched them? Why are you blaming the reformists for what you people do day in and day out.

Quote you - My point is, you either stay a sincere Bohra, follow all its customs.
That is exactly what the progressives want. Follow the principles. What you people do is not what imaan is all about. Imaan, what Bohras are supposed to follow is based upon a set of principles not a set of people who are supposed to be followed blindly. What the progressives are trying to do is bring you back on the right path. Our religion is based on principles. I think there is more knowledge about our beliefs and practices here on this website than last ten years of waaz. Try and understand this fact.

About being the Syedna being Maula, you quote the Rasoolallah, but don’t follow what he has mandated. Rasoolallah has mandated that no images were to be used, including his own. Is there a single Orthodox Bohra house with a picture of the Syedna today? Do you follow the deen of Rasulallah, or is he to be quoted selectively?

We don’t mock maatam per se, if you are perceptive, what we don’t agree is the use of maatam on all occasions including weddings and other joyous occasions. Excess of anything in life, is sickening. It is called an obsession. Islam is about the whole life of a muslim, excess about anything including salaat is not what Islam is all about. There is a time and place for everything. This is what you forget.

Quote you - You don't know much about the shariah.
I have already answered this question above about there being more knowledge here.

Quote you - I don't see why you need to reform!
Well, I think there is sufficient reason for why we all need to reform. Well, if you don’t want to, that is your problem. La iqraha fiddeen! We won’t compel you, like you do to us. Our methods are more humane.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#9

Unread post by Smart » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:16 am

Sorry, please consider this correction:
Posted: Is there a single Orthodox Bohra house with a picture of the Syedna today?
Read as: Is there a single Orthodox Bohra house without a picture of the Syedna today?

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#10

Unread post by like_minded » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:14 am

You mock about Bohras doing matam. Its a spiritual thing and it will be hard for you all to understand because your brains are totally sunk in the materialistic world.


Matam, a spiritual thing!!?? Please explain how is it so? How can self abuse (matam) ever be regarded as something spiritual?? Now, talking about the materialistic world... Your masters (Kotharis) are the ones who are materialistic., Why else would they need all the luxuries and comfort of this materialistic world?

Baskin
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:23 pm

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#11

Unread post by Baskin » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:51 pm

I have noticed that Mr. Insaf just compares anything around him and on the news against that to Syedna and Kothar. Doesn't make any sense. It shows that you breathe hatred.

Would like to hear once in a while, things that you're doing for your progressive group and how they practice the religion (if at all).

Your group is stuck in a limbo - Na Ghar ke na Ghaat ke.

Your movement is just leading to creation of people like Danish and soon you will have each and everyone of you there.

Must be proud of your achievement.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#12

Unread post by Danish » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:15 pm

Baskin wrote:Your movement is just leading to creation of people like Danish and soon you will have each and everyone of you there.

Must be proud of your achievement.
The more the righteous and the merrier life shall be; as per the quran ~ Danish.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#13

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:23 am

Baskin,

Welcome to the board. Hope you're enjoying the freedom here. Regarding your post, there are quite a few fallacies.

1) Insaf sahab does not take anything and everything around him and compares him Sayedna sahab. He picks up news and personalities only if they are relevant.

2) Actually it makes a lot of sense when he compares the lifestyle of Maula Ali with that of Sayedna sahab. The issue is not why he is making this comparison, but whether he is correct, whether the conclusions he draws from this assessment are right or not.

3) "Practice of religion!" I'm surprised that you can actually utter these words without feeling a sense of irony or even shame. What religion are Bohras under Sayenda's dispensation practicing? The priestly class has perverted every aspect of religion - so much so that a god-fearing bohra would be hard pressed to claim himself as a Muslim or even a Bohra in the Fatimid tradition.

4) "Ghar ke na Ghaat ke." The ghar and ghaat you belong to are false and illusive. They are no more than gilded cages.

5) "Your movement is just leading to creation of people like Danish." Am I surprised that you will pick on Danish to justify your wholesale and blind condemnation of the reform movement? That there are thousands of sincere and devout reformists you will not see or simply refuse to accept. Besides, as far as I can tell, Danish is not what he is because he is reformist. He is a reformist because what he is.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#14

Unread post by S. Insaf » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:22 am

I have noticed that Mr. Insaf just compares anything around him and on the news against that to Syedna and Kothar. Doesn't make any sense. It shows that you breathe hatred.

Dear Baskin!
1) The purpose of this forum, as I understand, is to bring awareness in the Dawoodi Bohra community about the un-Islamic and inhuman practices imposed by its religious establishment and blindly or under duress followed by the members of the community.

2) It is also the aim of this site to bring to the notice of the world the false claims and modus operandi of our religious hierarchy to commercialize religion and cheat the various governments of the world in the name of particular faith, customs and tenets. And fool the simple-hearted and docile followers by presenting its own version of religion.

Earlier Dawoodi Bohras were the true followers of Islam. They were much more practicing Muslims than the other Muslim sects. They were Religious but there was no trace of Fanatism in Dawoodi Bohra community. Physical attacks on their own co-religionists and even on non-Bohras were unheard in this community before Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. (Now the religion for them has become observing a bunch of useless rituals. They take pride in devotion to Dai and calling themselves as Abde-Sayedna. On his instigation they easily involve in worst kind of religious fanatism.)

There were several ulemas and professionals among them to give them right guidance in the matters of religion and right direction in the matters of worldly matters.
(Now the class of ulema is completely eliminated and replaced by sycophant Amil, Shaikhs and Tanzeem members. Professionals busy in designing and constructing “Sandas” for Dai spending millions of dollars.)

They were charitable. The numbers of masjids, musafarkhanas, jamatkhanas, madresas, sanatoriums, scholarship trusts and educational institutes built by Dawoodi Bohras after 1st and 2nd World Wars are reminder of their philanthropy. (Now every property of the community is under absolute control of the so-called “Sole-trustee”, who is more interested in renovating and commercializing them for the welfare of his family. Most shamelessly even musalla spaes are sold now)

Dawoodi Bohas were caring. The Bachat Yojnas, the Credit Societies and Banks established by them had helped many enterprising Bohra businessmen. (Now in the name of prohibition of interest all those beneficial institutes are closed down)

They were shrewd businessmen but were quite honest in their dealings. They were god-fearing and that is why they were very careful in adopting only Halal means of earning. (Now Dawoodi Bhras do not fear “Qaderul-Mutlaq Allah”, rather they fear Dai-ul-Mutlaq and to seek Dai’s pleasure and acquire titles and false honour they adopt all dishonest means to amass wealth.)

They were loyal and sentimental to their families and the community. (Now they have become insensitive to wards their own family members and the community. They enjoy in torturing their blood relations and remain unconcerned when the community’s valuable institutions and properties are sold off.)

They were devoted to their Dais but never allowed them to interfere in the affairs of the local Jamats and never allowed the Dais to overrule and amass wealth. (Now Dai’s family members and his Amils are dictating the matters of Jamats. All democratic constitutions of the Jamats and Trust deeds are changed to authoritarian constitutions)

The Amils were knowledgeable, kind and well-wishers of the community. (Now all Shahzadas and Amils have become most arrogant and oppressive. They treat ordinary Bohras as untouchables. So much so that they feel ashamed calling themselves as Bohras and changed all Dawoodi Bohra Jamats in to Anjumans.)

There were very few occasional jamans and majalis and Dawoodi Bohras had enough time to plan and execute the welfare schemes for the community. (Now Dawoodi Bohras are kept busy in wasteful activities like Araz, welcome functions at the airports, ikram, vadhavni, kadambosi, Ziyafats, Darees, iftitah, tafrih, shikar, Mohrram vaiz in far off places, matam every now and then, Salgirah of Dai and other officials, Rasme-Saifee, Band Competitions, Expose etc. Shops and business establishments are asked to close down and even students are not spared. They are asked to bunk their classes and attain these functions. Thus Dawoodi Bohras are not given time to think what is right or wrong for them.)

Therefore this forum becomes much more important to discuss ways and means to get rid of this situation. If call it hatred then yes it is hatred against the prevailing situation in the community and for the persons responsible for it.

Baskin
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:23 pm

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#15

Unread post by Baskin » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:14 pm

Hamsafar, S. Insaf

Not convinced.

Tell me how long your reform movement will last. I assume till the end of all those people who started it and still supporting it.

In this past 5 years, I have noticed that majority of your people participate on this forum by making fun, telling jokes and by abusing. I don't know how it is in real life, never came across anyone of you. Do you count on these people to carry forward the movement?

Think of this hypothetical situation; if your so called movement, reforms the community then are you going to have Dai also elected along with the local jamaats? And who will elect them, the reformers?

And please don't keep saying that you respect the position of Dai but not the Dai. This is as if saying I don't respect my father but I respect a person who is a father.

Your practice of religion remains unanswered. Hamsafar, talked a lot about we do... now let us hear what you (reformers) do.
[Reason I asked this question is because it is never discussed on the forum. I wonder why?]

SBM
Posts: 6241
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#16

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:37 pm

Baskin Quote
"And please don't keep saying that you respect the position of Dai but not the Dai."
In a civilized and democratic society that norm is true look at American democracy, people do respect the position of President but they do ridicule and some times do impeach the president. but I suppose if you live in a dictatorial regime and are being inslaved than you see no difference. For the followers of Yazid and Hitler,they also thought he can do no wrong. I will let you decide under which regime you prefer to live.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#17

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:57 pm

Baskin,

Please do not obsess about the reform movement. Let's suppose for a moment that it does not exist. Now turn you gaze towards the community: do you see that the community lives in constant fear of the priestly class? Do you see perversion of religion for the benefit of a "royal family"? Do you think this is a problem? Do you think that things are not exactly the way they should be? If your answer to all this is NO, then no matter what anybody says you'll not be convinced. People who are willfully blind don't see nothing.
Tell me how long your reform movement will last....
Forever. Or as long as man's quest for freedom will last. Reform movement or no reform movement, there will always be people who will question and challenge illegitimate authority.
I don't know how it is in real life, never came across anyone of you. Do you count on these people to carry forward the movement?
Please come to Udaipur and i'll introduce you to thousands of reformists and show you what we have accomplished. Or, if you prefer, come to Bombay or Aurangabad or Malegaon or Hyderabad or London or Birmingham or Leicester or Toronto or Connecticut or to hundreds of individual families scattered all over the world who are reformists or reformist-minded. The movement will be carried forward by all of us, collectively and individually, as long as we keep questioning and challenging the authority of the illegitimate priestly class.
...then are you going to have Dai also elected along with the local jamaats? And who will elect them, the reformers?
We accept the tradition of Dai being appointed by nass, so there is no question of electing the Dai. Reformists are very clear about this. Our issues have nothing to do with religion. As for jamaat, it is a secular affair. Every bohra community has the right to run its own affairs and the best way to do is by electing a group of members every few years. You do not elect reformists. You become one by choice provided you have the guts (to come out openly) or even more guts to remain within and question the system.
And please don't keep saying that you respect the position of Dai but not the Dai. This is as if saying I don't respect my father but I respect a person who is a father.
The Dai is not your father, he's an institution. His political equivalent would be, let's say, a president. Everybody accepts and respects the office of president as it is sanctioned by the constitution. The person occupying the office maybe bad or you may not agree with him but you do not trash and condemn the office itself. Instead you question the person and his integrity. Similarly, the office of the Dai is sacrosanct, sanctioned by doctrine and tradition. The Dai has a job to do and when he doesn't do it he can be questioned. He is not infallible. And when reformists question the Dai they are questioning the person and his integrity, not the office itself. Sure you can understand the difference. It's not that subtle.
Your practice of religion remains unanswered. Hamsafar, talked a lot about we do... now let us hear what you (reformers) do.
[Reason I asked this question is because it is never discussed on the forum. I wonder why?]
You've never heard about our "practice of religion" probably because it is not the issue. We practice the religion as Muslims are required to do: we say the shahada, we pray, we fast, we go to Haj, we pay zakat and we do jihad (against the illegitimate priestly class that has hijacked our religion). Add to this the additional two Ismaili pillars of Walayah and Taharah. But of course, you must know that we DO NOT practice the recent bida/innovations such as the worship of dai, treating him as Haqiqi Kabah, celebrating his birthday on a grander scale than that of the prophet, giving an oath of slavery, seeking raza for every damn thing, doing matam on every occasion, enshrouding our women in rida and reducing our men to Taliban like attire and appearance.

And, one more thing. We breathe freely and do not live in fear of the Amil and his henchmen. You must have got a taste of that freedom on this board. Please enjoy it and do speak freely.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#18

Unread post by Smart » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:07 pm

@baskin
I don't know how it is in real life, never came across anyone of you. Do you count on these people to carry forward the movement?
You need to understand that there is real fear among those whom you interact daily. It is because of the terror tactics practiced by the Kothar earlier. If you want to see the faces of reformists, just look around and you will see many. Just open out to ordinary Bohras anywhere in the world and you will see and experience their frustration with the set up.

If you study history and understand the trends carefully, and not go by what is dished to you in waaz, you will realise that establishments have been wiped out and the reformists have prevailed. To give you some examples:
1. Musa Nabi prevailed over the Firaun, who considered himself the god. He was way more powerful in his time.
2. Christian Protestants are in as large nos. as the Catholics and the Popes had to reform themselves to be able to retain the laity.
3. Imam Husain had to counter and reason with the Bani Umayyas and fight them, ultimately sacrificing his life and family. The Umayyads were happy that they were successful and even took out a victory procession with the head of Imam Husain on a spear. Remember Imam Husain's statement that he said to the Umayyads, "Their swords may be with you, but their hearts are with us".

There are many more examples, that can be quoted.

In all these examples, tell me who prevailed? The establishment or the reformists? Show even one example where the establishment has prevailed over a long term. It is just a matter of time. The hearts of the common Bohras are not with the establishment. It is only the fear that is keeping them from going away.

feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#19

Unread post by feelgud » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:03 am

Baskin wrote:
Would like to hear once in a while, things that you're doing for your progressive group and how they practice the religion (if at all).
welcom baskin,
we are trying to follow what the last prophet has given to us.
Here is some teachings from Hazrat ali ra to remind you how a good follower should be?

The Qualities of a faithful believer

O' creatures of Allah! the most beloved of Allah is he whom Allah has given power (to act) against his passions, so that his inner side is (submerged in) grief and the outer side is covered with fear. The lamp of guidance is burning in his heart. He has provided entertainment for the day that is to befall him. He regards what is distant to be near himself and takes the hard to be light. He looks at and perceives; he remembers (Allah) and enhances (the tempo of his) actions. He drinks sweet water to whose source his way has been made easy. So he drinks to satisfaction and takes the level path. He has put off the clothes of desires and got rid of worries except one worry peculiar to him. He is safe from misguidance and the company of people who follow their passions. He has become the key to the doors of guidance, and the lock for the doors of destruction.

He has seen his way and is walking on it. He knows his pillar (of guidance) and has crossed over his deep water. He has caught hold of the most reliable supports and the strongest ropes. He is on that level of conviction which is like the brightness of the sun. He has set himself for Allah, the Glorified, for performance of the most sublime acts of facing all that befalls him and taking every step needed for it. He is the lamp in darkness. He is the dispeller of all blindness, key to the obscure, remover of complexities, and a guide in vast deserts. When he speaks he makes you understand whereas when he remains silent then it is safe to do so. He did everything only for Allah and so Allah also made him His own. Consequently, he is like the mines of His faith and as a stump in His earth. He has enjoined upon himself (to follow) justice.

The first step of his justice is the rejection of desires from his heart. He describes right and acts according to it. There is no good which he has not aimed at nor any likely place (of virtue) of the Qur'an. Therefore the Qur'an is his guide and leader. He gets down when the Qur'an puts down his weight and he settles where the Qur'an settles him down.

The Characteristics of an unfaithful believer

While the other (kind of) man is he who calls himself learned but he is not so. He has gleaned ignorance from the ignorant and misguidance from the misguided. He has set for the people a trap (made) of the ropes of deceit and untrue speech. He takes the Qur'an according to his own views and right after his passions. He makes people feel safe from big sins and takes light the serious crimes. He says that he is waiting for (clarification of) doubts but he remains plunged therein, and that he keeps aloof from innovations but actually he is immersed in them. His shape is that of a man, but his heart is that of a beast. He does not know the door of guidance to follow nor the door of misguidance to keep aloof therefrom. These are living dead bodies.

banda e khuda
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:01 am

Re: In the footsteps of Maula Ali

#20

Unread post by banda e khuda » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:52 am

Baskin wrote:Hamsafar, S. Insaf

Not convinced.
either Mr Baskin u r member of Kothari circle, or one of those for whom god say, 'hum un kay dilloan par muhar laga daingay' , walay. if u have any sincerity in opening ur mind and heart about the movment i suggest u go and listen to the conversation between group of orthodox bohra and one of the leading member of reformist group in multimedia section of progressive dawoodi bohra site (http://dawoodi-bohras.com/reform_issues/multimedia/), u will be very much enlightened. Ameen.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:02 pm

The discussion that Br Engineer had with the orthos is very very good. All the bohras are presenting are talking points and you should listen to how Br. Engineer replies. His quotes from the quran at the right time present a knockout blow.

Baskin
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:23 pm

Re: Reform? What reform?

#22

Unread post by Baskin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:48 am

I am neither from Kothari Circle nor from 'Dilo par muhar laga daingay' walay!
Regarding the Engineer's crap... Thanks, but no thanks.
He is not worth my milisecond time to click on the link provided by you.

East Africawalla
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#23

Unread post by East Africawalla » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:28 am

Interesting character this Baskin person

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:05 pm

baskin,
He is not worth my milisecond time to click on the link provided by you.
In that case, you should consider yourself to be worth even less.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#25

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:56 pm

Baskin,
Is it possible for you to go beyond one liners? You're quick to criticise and dismiss reformists - which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But at least do it with some substance, give your point of view, elaborate your position. Let's hear what you stand for. If you are here just for a lark, to throw a stone or two to stir things up then you are simply wasting everybody's time- especially yours, given that even a millisecond is valuable to you.

East Africawala, this Baskin person is not interesting, he's just a typical Kothari bigot who can't seem to digest the fact that people actually have the guts to challenge the corrupt and illegitimate priestly class.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#26

Unread post by Smart » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:29 am

Bro Humsafar,
So true, baskin is so bigoted, that he is willing to spend a life time listening to crap dished out to him, but not a millisecond to somebody out to counter it. If you read all his posts, it is clear that he comes to this forum with a closed mind. He is prejudiced in the extreme and has decided to close his eyes to the truth. No amount of effort on anybody's part will wake him or open his eyes. Poor lost soul! I think we can only pity him.

Improvisator
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Reform? What reform?

#27

Unread post by Improvisator » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:02 am

You may argue for hours days or years, but this reform movement is unethical, irrational, meaningless, without support and potent.

I still say lakun dinakum! Why do you care? Are you being asked to accept Misaak? or attend waaz? or to give najva by force? or to do matam? or to do didaar? If you don't like it just move on!

banda e khuda
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#28

Unread post by banda e khuda » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:32 am

basic criteria for Justise is that one cannot pass a judgment, about any one or for any act, without listening to arguments of both side of the parties, otherwise u will b bias in ur judgment. Secondly if one's belief system is strong enough no one can shake you form ur belief, only if it is otherwise. so i sugguest to all my " WALGAYLA" brothers and sisters to just give it a try and listen to arguments, especially if u r taking time and coming to this site to express your opinion about the forum.wasalam.

Baskin
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:23 pm

Re: Reform? What reform?

#29

Unread post by Baskin » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:34 pm

Improvisator wrote:You may argue for hours days or years, but this reform movement is unethical, irrational, meaningless, without support and potent.

I still say lakun dinakum! Why do you care? Are you being asked to accept Misaak? or attend waaz? or to give najva by force? or to do matam? or to do didaar? If you don't like it just move on!
If they don't do this then what else they will do? This is their life. Just keep a watch on what Dawoodi Bohras do then comment on it. Better leave all this join some other Shia, Sunni or Wahabi group. If the reform movement has shaken your belief in Islam, then convert to Hinduism or Christianity. Better for you all, atleast you will come out this kind of life that is filled with hatred.

As I said earlier - Na ghar ke na ghaat ke!

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Reform? What reform?

#30

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:44 pm

Just keep a watch on what Dawoodi Bohras do then comment on it.
That is what this board and this web site are for. Keeping a watch on what the Dawoodi Bohras do and then commenting on it. You should read some of the threads on this board to see what the Kothar and your Syedna do. I was hardly able to keep myself from puking.
Better leave all this join some other Shia, Sunni or Wahabi group.
Some have already done that, however those that stay behind and fight for whatever reasons, are far better. The Kotharis and the Orthos want these people to leave as they do not fear those that have left, but those that have chosen to stay behind and fight.
If the reform movement has shaken your belief in Islam
Actually, most reformists know more about Islam than the orthos do. That is why they are feared by the kothar. They have the truth on their side. It's too bad you did not have a milisecond to listen to Br. Engineer talk to those orthos. In the end it almost seemed that the orthos might've been resenting the fact that they ever chose to spoke to Br. Engineer or that they are stuck with a corrupt system. There wasn't a single follow up question from them when Br. Engineer referenced the quran. That shows the knowledge of Islam the orthos have.
Better for you all, atleast you will come out this kind of life that is filled with hatred.
Hatred is all that you have displayed in your half a dozen posts. I think the reformist sleep well at night since they are responsible for spoiling the kothar's good night sleep.