What has reform movement achieved?

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#121

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:21 am

@deerseye:

Deep in your heart you also know that the so called reform is of no use. Your fathers and fore father were also bohras and they believed the same Dai, This reform just started 20 years back. Syedna TUS has been on this seat since 50 years and so were the previous Duaats present when mumineen followed them.

Dont you that Quran also commands the Taa'at of the Ulul Amr. To be very specific the Quran states of Taa'at of Allah, Nabi and Ulul Amr (the 3 specific conditions stated). If Allah wanted he would have commanded Wasi or Imam in place of Ulul Amr. But Allah's words are Haqq and final. This is the clear thing to justify that there must be some one on this earth who would be Saheb of Amr. In the period of occultation, the Imam AS has given full authority to the Dai.

And in this age, we are under the command of 52nd Dai, so I have made it clear that despite you dont believe in him but He is the Dai and its your call if you wish to believe in him or not.

If money is everything then this Dawaat would not have stayed till 1000 years since the occultation of Imam AS and you know where ALMIGHTY have raised is his hands.

KM1
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#122

Unread post by KM1 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:32 am

Deerseye wrote:Sometimes I get fed up ,reading so many arguments on the forum, and I fail to understand why we are working our selves out to convince people likeKM and TB. We know very well that in their hearts they know the truth.. Today the Kothar has money power and it thinks that it can do anything on this earth with money, but there is something called justice also ,and when THE ALMIGHTY will raise his hand all that is false will perish. The QURAN promises that truth will always win.

yes you are right and from last 1400 years or more this Dawat is there and prospering because its on right way and will always win


but see the state of your movement and your leaders and show us anything which has even survived 140 years or carrying any legacy or heirs

so pls don't waste your precious time convincing us instead you get something concrete which proves you all right and your cause is genuine

Mr Engineer knew v well that he was not a bohra and just wanted to play mischief and get some importance from the people but he proved while he died that he was not a bohra so he was buried in a Sunni Qabarastan due to his own wishes.
This type of past leaders do you have.

has any of your reformist leaders is remembered or even in is memory anything something is done after they die.

Think Think!

think
Posts: 1821
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#123

Unread post by think » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:23 am

Think, for how long did the family of firon rule on this earth acting as God?

SBM
Posts: 6228
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#124

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:31 am

KM1
yes you are right and from last 1400 years or more this Dawat is there and prospering because its on right way and will always win
And no one disputes that, Everyone on the reformist side has never questioned the DAWAT what they are questioning is the life style of current RULER of Dawat, especially when the current and immediate past RULER issued more BARATS of the Mumineens then the combined Duaats of DAWAAT.

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#125

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:40 am

do you have the counts of the total Bara'at that previous duaats did. Dont speak without proper figures.

and you know Syedna TUS lifestyle. I am sure you must be aware that he wears the same clothes that we do, he wears the same scullcap that we do, his eats same as we do,

If you think lifestyle is about money and wealth, then you cant even count how many billionaire bohra exist in this world. There house are bigger than that of Saify Mahal. So dont give this reason of you all leaving this Daawat

SBM
Posts: 6228
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#126

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:20 pm

true_bohra wrote:do you have the counts of the total Bara'at that previous duaats did. Dont speak without proper figures.

and you know Syedna TUS lifestyle. I am sure you must be aware that he wears the same clothes that we do, he wears the same scullcap that we do, his eats same as we do,

If you think lifestyle is about money and wealth, then you cant even count how many billionaire bohra exist in this world. There house are bigger than that of Saify Mahal. So dont give this reason of you all leaving this Daawat
Let us start line by line
do you have the counts of the total Bara'at that previous duaats did
No- I donot have any counts because previous Duaats did not use BARRAT on Mumineens it was only started by 51st
you know Syedna TUS lifestyle.

Yes- I see Syedna TUS life stylem flying by plane and helicopter, going on Shikaar right after Mohrram
I am sure you must be aware that he wears the same clothes that we do
No He does not wear the same clothes as we do He has starched clothes and I do hand washing
he wears the same scullcap that we do,
No He does not wear the same Scullcap since his cap has a antena on his cap with different colors and has Gold Zari design
his eats same as we do,
No Not only he does not eat the same food but even his sons and daughters do not eat the same food as Adna Mumineen
then you cant even count how many billionaire bohra exist in this world.
OK so tell us how many billionaire bohras exists in this world, you asked me to provide the count for Baraat from previous Duaats Now you tell us how many billionaire Bohras exists (No KOTHARI GOONS DO NOT COUNT)
There house are bigger than that of Saify Mahal.
Finally tell which Bohra has bigger house then Saify Mahal so kothari Goons can take over that house for the Khushi of Aqa Moula and his Mansoos
CAN YOU ALSO ANSWER TO MY QUESTION HOW COME SYEDNA DOES NOT TALK ABOUT HIS MOTHER (LACK OF RESPECT NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR OWN MOTHER) AS YOU DEFENDED KM1 ABOUT REFORMISTS NOT RESPECTING THEIR PARENTS.

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#127

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:48 pm

1 bohras do wear starched clothes. Ou hand wash it or starch it, there is no prohibition.
2 Yes Syedna TUS wears the choch wali topi but for the same raza is granted to all aamils and ustaads of jamea. And yes Syedna TUS also wear the topi that we normally wear. You can see that in case of Mufaddal bs
3 Syedna TUS eat normal food as we do. He is fond of vegetables and I know a muminaat wo specially cooked bitter gourd (karela) for Syedna TUS. There was also a video in circulation wherein somebody offered bhujia to Syedi Aaliqadar TUS on thandla road railway station.
4 do you have proof that baraat was started in the tjme of Sydna Taher Saifuddin RA era,
5 you asked me count of bohra billionaires. I have already mentioned there are countless.
YOU ARE HIGHLY MISTAKEN ABOUT FACTS. SEE ALL MY POST WHERE IN DEFENDED KM1 ABOUT REFORMIST NOT RESPECTING THEIR PARENTS. THEY ARE YOUR PARENTS AND YOU SHOULD RESPECT THEM, WHO CAN STOP YOU FROM THAT

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#128

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:13 pm

true_bohra wrote:and you know Syedna TUS lifestyle. I am sure you must be aware that he wears the same clothes that we do, he wears the same scullcap that we do, his eats same as we do,
Almost every leader whether it be the Pope, the Jewish Rabi or the conman Babas, wear the same clothes. Even Asaram Bapu who is behind bars alongwith his son Narayan Sai wear only WHITE CLOTHES inspite of being worth more then Rs.10,000 crores. Asaram and his son also wear the same woollen cap and they too eat vegetarian food.
true_bohra wrote:If you think lifestyle is about money and wealth, then you cant even count how many billionaire bohra exist in this world.
If you think lifestyle is about money and wealth, then you cant even count how many billionaire wahabis, jews, Christians, Hindus and Parsis exist in this world.
true_bohra wrote:There house are bigger than that of Saify Mahal.
The Wahabi king of Saudi has a much bigger house then his mentor Abdul Wahab and Mukesh Ambani has a bigger and in fact the most expensive house in the world then his Hindu guru.
KM1 wrote:yes you are right and from last 1400 years or more this Dawat is there and prospering because its on right way and will always win
Get your facts right !! Dawoodi Bohras came into existence much later and regarding prosperity then the Wahabis, Jews, Jains and Hindus are far more prosperous then Bohras, in fact a single wahabi can buy 100 bohra sethias in one single cheque !! Does it mean that they are on the right path ??

Maqbool
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#129

Unread post by Maqbool » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:27 am

true_bohra wrote:You are master in bringing proofs and evidences. If kothar had issued order then you must be having a copy of it. Can you post it here??
If kothar has issued an order, It is good because Alikader is saying in "waez that Pacha Avijav." When you are asking for proof it means that you don't believe in words of Alikader. Do you say that this tipe of farman is not issued!
true_bohra wrote:and you know Syedna TUS lifestyle. I am sure you must be aware that he wears the same clothes that we do, he wears the same scullcap that we do, his eats same as we do,
You are wrong here. The dupatta is for only privileged few. and Paghdi cost more then 1/2 crore.

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#130

Unread post by true_bohra » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:43 am

@maqbool:
yes Aaliqadar Maula said ke pacha aawi jao but did asghar turn back to Dawat?? and its about his burial. You must be knowing that all orders of kothar are on paper so Insaf will surely bring one. And I do not dare to disbelieve words of Aaliqadar Maula TUS.

you talking about dupatta and paghri. See the number of Paghri holders in Dawat, they are not selected few. Dupatta raza is also given to most of the amils and ustaads of Jamea.

and your point that paghdi cost 1/2 crore then you are wrong, During a recent visit to a city, Aaliqadar Maula TUS bestowed hadiyat sharaf to a dozen of old age people.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#131

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:11 am

@sis deerseye. Salam behan.

Why should you get frustrated with this parade of fools showing their stuff on this site. I enjoy the results of the children brought up with haram ni kamaie. These are the brightest stars of the fold. Can you imagine the women folk, they are not allowed on the site. Must be difficult for them to see the world with Parda in their eyes or brains.
We should thank Allah for our children having all the ingredients for a happy and fruitful life. Parwardigar is good to all of us, we will enjoy laughter and pain, happiness and sorrow. Life's up and down. We have equal chance of winning and loosing. They have boredom and idleness. Just enjoy the show. Life is difficult, its twice as difficult if you are stupid.

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#132

Unread post by alam » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:32 am

S. Insaf wrote:We stood firm against Syedna’s propaganda that the “Reformists are enemy of ‘Dawat’ and ‘Religion’. And because of their movement ‘Islam’ is in danger.
. . . .
We stood firm against fanatic assaults by misguided Bohra mob and ultimately made it realized that we are not against Fatemi Dawat.

We stood firm on our Dawoodi Bohra faith and Dawoodi Bohra Jamats. . . .
This is no small achievement.

About time Syedna, the Mansoos and the leadership realize, or at the very least, consider, that the reformist movement has the potential of restoring ethics in the organization of Dawat-e-Hadiya and its office-bearers Aamils, Kothar, Jamea ustaads, and last but not the least, the Shehzadas and their families themselves.

Part of what the reform movement does is by way of relentless questioning, and standing firm.
Anyone can stand firm on something they feel strongly about. By relentless questioning and facing the music.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1272
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#133

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:14 am

true_bohra wrote:During a recent visit to a city, Aaliqadar Maula TUS bestowed hadiyat sharaf to a dozen of old age people.
Propaganda ...have you not seen business men giving a few samples and complementary to rack in more paid sheikh sales.
While even a new Muslim can be called a sheikh if he is diligent in seeking the knowledge of Islam based upon the Qur'an and authentic Sunnah, he can be referred to as such by those he teaches. Usually, a person is known as a sheikh when he has completed his undergraduate university studies in Islamic studies and is trained in giving lectures.[1] The word sheikh under this meaning is a synonym of Alim, plural Ulama (a learned person in Islam, a scholar),[2] Mawlawi, Mawlānā, Muhaddith, Faqīh, Qadi, Mufti, Hadhrat or Hafiz.
What is the abde definition of sheikh ?

Mkenya
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#134

Unread post by Mkenya » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:58 pm

I commend all of you who have described so eloquently your views on this topic. I have travelled widely in countries where there are sizeable Bohra populations. Mashallah, there are mosques, jamaat khanas, etc. to accommodate people for their get-togethers. I have also observed these places to full or near-full capacities on many occassions. Patricipants are attired fully in prescribed outfit. They take full part in all the rituals while there. Traditionally these gatherings culminate in jamans and people all go home. Everything looks fine.

Underneath all this is a layer of bitterness and rancour that percolates to the surface when there are subtle discussions taking place about this or that about the Ayyans, duress of wajebaat, abnormal length of repetetive sermons, etc. There is cloud of unhappiness and resignation. It is pitiful to listen to even 'muttaki' and sundry individuals relate impotently episodes of humility and hardship.

Yet, the questions that comes to mind is why is the situation such. I do not need to go into the list of compulsions that are exacted on individuals who dare question. The point is these individuals participate; whether on free will or otherwise.

We have to ask ourselves is what is our focus. Is our role just to 'unearth' wrongdoings by Kothar, give 'critiques' on the nefarious activities of upper-echelon Kothar, try to 'decipher' Kothar's motives of sleeping with Modi and so on. I would say, defintely not.

Who are we trying to elighten. The majority that pay wajebaat, attend Ashara by the tens of thousands, regularly attend all Kaumi functions, etc. I say they are there because they want to for various reasons. A revelation of a blemish here and a miscreant there will not make them falter. There is a glue that is so strong, yet so invisible, that makes them who they are and beleive as they do. Do we think they are not aware of the massive misappropriation of moneys, lavish travel and lifestyles, infighting among the power-brokers? In spite of all that their belief that Maula is supreme and that he is the one to follow absolutely; do not mind the underlings.

Conducting dialogue with people from all spectrum is a very worthy idea. We can debate on discuss ideas on issues in rational ways.
But that is as far at it goes. It can only be a 'vent' to air out ideas and thoughts BUT no one should be under the false impression that it will the seed like the 'Spring' in the Arab world!

Maqbool
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#135

Unread post by Maqbool » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:51 am

you talking about dupatta and paghri. See the number of Paghri holders in Dawat, they are not selected few. Dupatta raza is also given to most of the amils and ustaads of Jamea.

I think you are not well informed. The duppatta is also given rich shaiks at the high rate. The main factor that we all wear same clothes is not true that is the main point. You also have conformed that the amils and others have permission to wear some other clothes.
and your point that paghdi cost 1/2 crore then you are wrong, During a recent visit to a city, Aaliqadar Maula TUS bestowed hadiyat sharaf to a dozen of old age people.
Please note that the old age people are also charged for shaikh tiltle but it is less. And again that they also wear a different caps. I t means that the dress are not same for all as you claim.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#136

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:10 am

Br tr=bo,
Your Shafeeq Bawa and his bawa has claimed Khudai, once in cour (documented) and also selling jannat with chitthi. Every penny in his name belongs to Bohra community. Your father sells Imam Hussain's name all day long, but lives like Mowviyah. Every bite in your stomach is haram nu jaman. Unless you can provide some pictures of him earning a living. I will try to remind you to show us the proof that I and all can see. Otherwise, your bawaji is Gharib and Yateem ka dushman. Your other relatives keep going under ground, then keep coming back up with different names. As a famous philosopher Peter Russel said " Be a man,.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#137

Unread post by S. Insaf » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:45 pm

True Bohra has asked me: “You are master in bringing proofs and evidences. If kothar had issued order then you must be having a copy of it. Can you post it here??”

Brother for your information initially late Syedna Saheb made mistake to send his farmans in writing. Several court cases were filed against him on the basis of those written farmans and he was defeated. ‘Burhanpur Dargah Case’, ‘Abde-Fatema Nikah case’, ‘Bakhsha Musa Dadi Case’ are some of them.
Then he learnt not to put farman in writing selectively.
One more thing few of my close family members are Amils. I am also in contact of few Amils who have sympathy for our cause.
About Asghar Ali Saheb's burial farman was oral.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#138

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:43 pm

The reform minded Bohras should take a leaf from the recent Delhi elections in which the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) virtually changed the demographics of Indian politics. The AAP which is just a year old took on the mighty giants like the Congress and BJP and made them bite dust, a phenomena which was just not imaginable. Its leader, Arvind Kejriwal who was an Income Tax officer and comes from an ordinary background defeated the seasoned politician Sheila Dixit who had won 3 consecutive elections and was the Chief Minister for 15 year by a whooping margin of over 25,000 votes. Then there was an armyman, Surendra Singh who was injured during the 26/11 attack in Mumbai and who fought on the AAP ticket, an unknown figure and completely new to politics was victorious. There were many other AAP candidates like them who inspite of being new to politics and with no public image defeated some stalwarts of Delhi.

This is a party which was fighting a battle like David and Goliath and which managed to topple Goliath. It had no money power, no muscle power, no paid khidmatguzars as compared to BJP and Congress which are flush with enormous funds and having lakhs of paid volunteers. Although BJP did manage to emerge as the single largest party getting only 4 seats more as compared to AAP but it still doesn't qualify them for governing Delhi. Even the Modi factor didn't work in their favour as statistically their vote share actually DROPPED by 2.5% as compared to their last performance in the previous elections.

So what was their mantra ?? It was a fight against corruption and misgovernance, a factor which is hurting the countrymen since decades. People were fed up with the same old corrupt leaders who indulge in politics of hatred, who are opportunists and who come to power ONLY to fill their own coffers, they have no love for the country, no intention of serving the people............. Now doesn't it ring a bell somewhere ????

It is the frustration of masses which was galvanised into a movement and which ultimately made history. It was not something which came up suddenly, it took years. Hence the same goes with the reform movement. No matter how much the diehard abdes deny but the fact remains that there is lot of anger and frustration within every segment of this community and the time is not far when this anger and frustration too will galvanise them into a force which will not only overthrow this corrupt regime of Saifee Mahal but will teach them a lesson which their future generations will not forget for their lifetime.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#139

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:58 pm

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Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#140

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:12 pm

What a fascinating thread - I think I'm gonna be busy again lol!

The only point you people need to understand is this = Are The Kothar Still Corrupt And In Control? The answer is an affirmative Yes... therefore the Reformists haven't achieved much, if anything at all. This is a crying shame.

If you people keep living in a fantasy land, then this situation will not change.

Please Progressives, try and make some Progress!

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#141

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:16 pm

Bohra spring wrote:Petition against hunting by BS, no more hunting photos ..Mansoos recently went hunting it was kept quiet
An online petition is not going to achieve anything BS, you know this full well brother. Besides, hunting is a side issue, there are far bigger fish to fry my friend...
Embarrassment of publishing zaifats now everything is underground by G M
Dude, it has always been "underground"
Investigations in Saudi Arabia.
This had little to do with Reformists - the Wahhabi's are constantly putting pressure on all Shia communities
Investigations in Malaysia , a frequent reformist on this site who has asked not to be named has details but will refuse to disclose which 3 countries are also investigating.
What investigations? If people are not going to reveal anything then what is the point? The Kothar win and we lose!
FGM outcry globally and community defamation which started in India, blew up in Australia , was picked by media worldwide .
The West has been fighting against FGM for years. Again, the Reformists had nothing to do with this. It's not right to steal credit for the hard work of other people bro.

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#142

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:21 pm

Maqbool wrote:This web site exists since last so many years, in spite by the kotharies to sabotage and restrain bohras to visit the site, is a big achievements.
How exactly can the Kothar prevent anyone from coming to this website? Is an AmilSahab cutting off the electricity to your computer?
Lots of bohras are visiting this site and taking part in discussion.
Nope, only a hundred or so people read this forum and only a couple of dozen bother to get involved in discussions. Please live in reality brother, this place is so small that it's virtually insignificant.
Many discussions are copied and circulated by watsup is not a small achievement.
A WhatsApp message doesn't achieve anything important, apart from raise a giggle for a few seconds.
This create awareness among bohras and many have understood that the religion run by kothar is not a religion but a business and which benefits to them only.
All Bohras already know this my friend - the question is, what are we going to do about it?
The most and important achievement tested by the Udaipuries, That is the freedom from the kotharies, who poke in all the personal and community affairs.
Yes, Udaipur is the only place the Kothar is losing - unfortunately everywhere else in the world, the Kothar is winning. After all these years, there should be 100 or 1,000 more Udapurs, but sadly there isn't. No Progress has been made at all by the Progressives. It is a great shame on us all.

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#143

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:23 pm

think wrote:The biggest accomplishment of this website is freedom of speech. A place to voice their opinion when they know that things are not the way they should be. They feel there is something wrong with the present regime and would like to know if there are others that share the same.
And what have we accomplished with this freedom of speech? Very little bro.
Also, please do remember that we all have freedom of speech out in the real world - the only place the Kothar control us is when we are in the Masjid.

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#144

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:31 pm

Humsafar wrote:The biggest achievement of reformists is their freedom. Freedom from exploitation by the mafia clergy, freedom form fear of these thieves in white robes, freedom from obsessing about raza for every little thing we do in our life, freedom from pressure to pay wajebat and haggle with local aamil, freedom to enjoy and perform religious functions without having to worry about safai chitthi and salams, freedom to observe Ramazan in the right spirit of piety, charity, remembrance of Allah, instead of worrying about being fleeced, freedom to observe Muhrram in the right spirit of gham-e-hussain and learning to stand up to truth as his sacrifice teaches us instead of celebrating the 10-day picnic of fun and festivity as business are forced to close and children kept out of school, freedom to choose names, careers and businesses without interference from the mafia clergy, freedom of women to work or be homemaker as they like, freedom from the retrograde and demeaning advice from the Muffadal Mansoos who wants to take the community back to the middle ages, freedom from constant brainwashing at majlises, madrassas and darees where the glory of the dai overshadows that of the Prophet and Ahle Bayt, freedom form participating in immoral tamashas of celebrating lavish birthday of the Dai, freedom to think freely and speak our mind, freedom to cook and eat what we like instead of being forced-fed through tiffin scheme, freedom to elect our own jamat committees and manage our affairs, freedom to question our jamat and ask for accounts, freedom to own our community properties, freedom from willful slavery, freedom of conscience, freedom form worshiping a human, freedom from folding hand and humiliating oneself in front of zadas barely out of puberty, freedom of self-respect and personal dignity, freedom to live as truly free human being.
True, this freedom has allowed your small community to become smokers, drinkers, drug-addicts, gamblers and most of all, to become divorced and let your children leave Islam all together... from the frying pan, in to the fire Humsy?
One could go on, but the freedoms we enjoy maybe hard for abdes to even imagine. Reformist occupy a moral and mental space which is beyond the conception of an unfortunate people for whom the word freedom is erased from their lives.
The freedom you receive is enjoyed by your wallet and bank balance - that is all really.
It's dishonest to say you are morally and mentally better off... when it's so easy to see how morally bankrupt and mentally unstable, most of the Reformists have become in the UK. Westernisation has corrupted you all here.
Ironically, even as reformists enjoyed their freedoms - which normal human beings enjoy everywhere - the abdes lost more of theirs. They sunk deeper into slavery. The control of mafia clergy became more tight and draconian, abdes were forced to attend Muhrram majlises, their e-jamat cards were scanned to monitor their movement and obedience. In the year 2013, Hijri 1435, the year of our Lord when the Dai celebrated his 102nd birthday, the Bohra sheep were fully branded, tagged and accounted for. This is the achievement of abde Bohras. While we Dawoodi Bohras not only enjoyed our freedoms but also exercised them by electing a new jamat committee in Udaipur and other reformist centres. This website and forum gained new members and supporters (even as it lost a couple due personal pessimism and a lack of faith in the future). Extravagance of ziyafat and other ills were exposed though this forum forcing kothari sites to build security firewalls, the mansoos and the air hostess incident was brought to light here and so was horrendous and bestial act of digging up Adamji Peerboy wife's grave, a campaign to help the poor bohras of Ahemdabad was organised here and united both sides in compassion and generosity...
True, the financial extortion increased this year (like it does every year lol) but the rest of what you say is your usual exaggeration Humsy. Although I give you the fact that a couple of scandals were righteously publicised, but what did it achieve, absolutely nothing. Also, will you please drop using the "air hostess incident" like it was something world shattering lol! It was nothing more than trivial and petty nonsense, the Kothar are up to FAR worse and your obsession with such minor things clouds the bigger issues at play.
And the biggest achievement of reformists is that they do not exploit, mislead and fool people in the name of religion.
You're right - Reformists do it in the name of "freedom" instead.
In response what have abdes to report? More slavery, more exploitation and more control?
True, but that is the case for all people on this Earth, in every walk of life. The entire human race is being more and more exploited and controlled and enslaved with every passing day - neither of us are immune to this, whether we are Bohra or Anti-Bohra.
At least as a Bohra, I experience many benefits out of this exploitation whereas Anti-Bohras only experience bitterness and jealousy, oh and freedom to let your daughters run away with Non-Muslims.

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#145

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:37 pm

Bohra spring wrote:Why are there no statistics from India regarding what reformists have achieved in this year?

I think we need to deliver light soft influence .but not the only way..sitting on the fence and attracting them through window shopping is not fast enough to cause significant dent in the kothars operations ...we have been doing that for many year. And as TB says we have not much to show as results, and I agree. I know this is self criticism but if we don't kothar surely would regard us with the same view.. We don't last long and we fizzle out soon.

I am waiting for someone from PDB to confirm if they have noticed mass exodus ? If not then what do we have to show that our protests are delivering people who seek freedom and better life outside their slavery.

I have a different view from Alam..the reform movement needs to take a more assertive mode...create a strong alternative society that pulls liberal minded bohra across. And once we have a critical mass we live separately , have a self sustaining large society . We can create our own community.

Now if the above is too divisive idea and is unacceptable then we need to seed enough ideas within the community to create ruptures and a self driven over throwing of the regime. This way we cause a renaissance and keep the community one. Both are not easy ..even they may sound sexy, I am not delusional...but don't like the alternative of just waiting and hoping the problem will go away with time and the administrators will self reform.

Even in earlier Islamic conquers, the Prophet had to take the fight to the unbelievers ...Makkah did not just accept Islam...they surrendered when they saw the warriors at the city limits. History is full of precedence , even India has to take action.

If the reformist insist on a soft approach then we will continue the blogging for a very long time.

So the point is what will we do differently in 2014 to cause kothar to be unstable ...how will we raise the tempo of our protests, reforms etc.

If abdes want to remain with Kothar at their free will so be it it is their choice, I am not suggesting we impose our beliefs and values on them.

Also We just seem to lack leadership to carry the fight and if someone does take the lead very few follow and support the initiative. We seem to get distracted and are happy to just complain and rely on luck if someone on their own takes the fight .

I have examples..the fGM issue fizzled out in India ..very few supported the women who petitioned ? Why a we so timid

The case in udaipur where the were riots or abuses during Ramadan ..no follow up with the police cases..if there were no one reported them.

So yes we have achieved significant milestones , with fewer capacity and congrats to the initiators but we as broader reformists have been unable to leverage the small gains for greater change .
Superb post my friend! I disagree with a few points, but wholeheartedly agree with most of what you said.

You are 100% right brother :
1 ) Reformists have not dented the Kothar
2 ) Reformists will probably fizzle out soon
3 ) Reformists need to be more assertive
4 ) Reformists need to pull Bohras across
5 ) Reformists should either create an alternative/superior community or drive/force a regime change in the present system
6 ) Reformists lack leadership
7 ) Reformists lack unity
8 ) Reformists are just happy to complain and do nothing more
9 ) Reformists are unable to leverage any real change

All the above leads to the most honest thing I've ever read on this forum - you are a wise and courageous man to have said it :
10) Reformists will do nothing more than continue blogging for a very long time

For all our sakes, lets pray that you are wrong.

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#146

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:42 pm

Humsafar wrote:There is no earthly reason for Bohras to helplessly wallow in victimhood, as if they are so abjectly miserable and defeated that they cannot do something about their situation. Even the Quran says that even Allah cannot help those who cannot help themselves. The Bohra system in the past two generations has inflicted so much violence on their soul and spirituality that their conscience is dead and their zameer moribund. They have no one to blame but themselves for this shameful state of affairs.
It's time we stopped feeling sorry for abdes. They have no excuse to accept a life of indignity, insult and humiliation. They are not hapless Jews in a Nazi gas chamber, they are not Palestinians being crushed under Zionist jackboots. Even Palestinians are challenging and resisting their tormentor risking all they have. Bohras face no such dire situation. What is stopping them from standing up for their rights? We can dialogue and debate all we want but nothing will change unless abdes get off their sorry asses, jolt themselves out of their moral inertia and do something about their goddamn situation.
Really Humsy? I thought I had educated you out of this "Bohras live in misery" fantasy that you people have.

If things were really as "melodramatically" bad as you believe, then every Bohra on Earth would leave the Jamaat and join you Heroes! The truth is things are difficult, but well worth the sacrifice, as I explained to you in full detail before.

So please don't feel sorry for me dude, my life is expensive (lol!) but is quite happy, and my family are safe and secure living within a peaceful and prosperous community who are proud to be Shia - I am actually more worried about you my friend, especially if you live in England where the Samma Pux has forgotten everything it means to be Muslim...

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#147

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:50 pm

S. Insaf wrote:Achievements of the reformist Bohras

I remember the first address of Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer to Bohra reformists. As an eminent social activist he had said:
1. Stop fighting on your opponent ground. (We used to black-flag demonstrations on Syedna’s arrival etc.) Compel your opponent to come to your ground and fight. We started seminars, conferences, public meetings and inquiry commissions. Syedna’s men in thousands came on ground to oppose them and were widely condemned. Then they stopped opposing us.
This was our major achievement.
Well done to Mr Engineer, he was an intellectual giant and a true leader who produced results. His passing is a great loss to us all.
However this achievement was from years ago, not in 2013.
2. We are Dawoodi Bohras. So we named our organizations and outfits as “Bohra Youth”, “Dawoodi Bohra Jamat”and “Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community” etc. Which was initially opposed on our ground by Syedna’s men but then they stopped and changed their Jamats in to Anjumans, Anjumane Shiate Ali, Anjumane Burhani, Anjumane Taheri etc.
This was our achievement.
I doubt that very much bro. The name change was for many other reasons. Besides, even if it was due to Reformists, I wouldn't say a name change is worth getting all excited about lol.
And again, this was established in the past, not in 2013.
3. When Syedna refused to perform the reformists nikahs. We arranged the “Mass-marriages” programs. Initially Syedna claimed that such nikahs are invalid and children produced out of such wedlock would have physical and mental disabilities. He proved wrong and hence stopped opposing them. Not only that, he also started mass-marriages program naming them as “Rasme-Saifee”.
This was our achievement.
Very interesting and impressive, please do provide the announcements of this. Also did this happen in 2013?
4. We started burying our dead in Bohra kabrastan under police protection. Initially Syedna’s men came in hundreds to oppose us claiming that we are not Dawoodi Bohras as we have not given misak to Syedna. They proved wrong and then stopped opposing, especially when the Supreme Court of India ruled that "......Dawoodi Bohras regardless of whether they have taken the Oath of Allegiance (misaq) or not and regardless of whether they have been excommunicated or not." A man like Dr Asghar Ali Engineer’s mother, Maryam bai, was allowed to bury in Kurla Bohra Kabrastan, where Mulla was send for Namaze-Janaza and sadqallah. Reformist Bohras including Dr. Asgar Ali Engineer prayed namaze-Janaza in the mosque without any opposition.
This was our achievement.
Again very impressive, would love to see the announcements. Did this happen in 2013?
5. In Janta rule in 1977 we contacted the Prime Minister, Morarji Desai, who had seen the dead body of Amtullah bai on the footpath of Charni Road footpath and then had described the Mullaji “Monstrous” in the legislative assembly of Bombay Province. He became instrumental in appointing of “Justice Nathwani/Tarkunde Inquiry Commission”.
Syedna never wanted to come his atrocities, his un-Islamic inhuman practices, his extortion, his absolute power and dictatorship in black and white and he knew how destorous this commission would be for his epmire. Therefore Syedna used all the force and tricks under his command to stop this commission from functioning. But when the second commission “Justice Tiwetia Inquiry Commission” held his inquiry there was no opposition.
More than 30 years have passed but Syedna has not challenged the findings of these commissions.
This is our achievement.

6. Once the reports of these commissions reports were out in public, we filed a Writ petition no. 740 of 1986. Syedna’s son late Huzefa Mohinuddin took 10 years to file his response. After the mass-revolt in Udaipur in 1973, Syedna unleashed a reign of terror on the community and hundreds of Bohras suffered due to excommunication, which had become easy tool in the hands of Syedna’s Amils. But after filing the writ petition now the incidents of excommunication is hardly heard. Even those few who are excommunicated or threatened have taken up to challenge.
This is our achievement.
Something that happened 30 years ago is an achievement for 2013?
7. Syedna’s family, his entire administration is so afraid of the reformists that they have introduced ‘Dress-Code”, ‘E-Jamat cards’ and now smart cards. There programs are announced at the last moment.
No my friend, this stuff was coming all along, the Kothar (like any money-making business lol) are moving with the times by getting more organised and tech savvy. You really shouldn't be making false claims like this bro... besides, are you going to take the blame for it all now lol!
8. Lastly the reformist Bohras are standing firm on their principles in spite of all odds and fighting for their rights.
This, itself is our biggest achievement.
I thought the Reform Movement was about removing money, power and corruption from the Kothar - but the Kothar keeps getting richer, more powerful and more corrupt? Are you winning the fight against them or losing, Mr Insaf?

I'll leave you with that thought...

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#148

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:31 pm

DB-Londoner,
Good to see you coming back with a vengeance. If I remember it correctly, you had gone away in a huff promising never to waste of your time here anymore. Looks like you seem to have a lot of time to waste now, lol.

We reformists have achieved much and still there is a long way to go, no doubt. But before you pick holes with our movement it would only make sense that you first catch up with us. Otherwise it would seem hypocritical on your part. The noise and talk is coming from you without any action. If your really want this movement to progress then please do something in your local jamat, stir up people there, prick their conscience, tell them about the true Shia Islam that you love so much, tell them the Dawat and Kothar are not living like Ali and are never going to die like Hussain. Tell them that Bohras are living a life of shirk, it is not a life Ahle Bayt would approve. Tell them that they and you must do something about it. Point to the examples of Udaipur and other reformists jamats. Tell them freedom from the clutches of the Kothar is possible, only that it won't be given to you on a platter. In Udaipur it was not give to us on a platter either. You'll have to fight for it, make sacrifices, do something more than furiously "blogging" here. The real change will come from the jamat level, by organising people, by talking to people, your friends, family, colleagues. We'll have to change one Bohra at a time, one jamat at a time.

This forum is just a place to discuss and exchange ideas. It will not bring a revolution in and of itself. Yes it can help facilitate communication, bring people together, but any meaningful change will come only at individual local jamat level. This is very important to understand.

The idea of human resources is good, and best way to find these resources is among your people whom you meet on a regular basis, talk to them, express your ideas, get them into confidence, build a mini-movement within your jamat, and when you have enough numbers stand up to the local goondas and the aamil. Challenge them, protest against their unreasonable demands, ask for accounts, refuse to pay up. Unless you take these actions, nothing will change. We from the outside can give you moral support, maybe financial help and guidance and such. But real change must come from within led by aware and awakened people like you.

So the choice is yours. If you're really sincere and serious about bringing about change then you would get cracking. Or you can come here and shout off your mouth and call us names. The first option is tough and slow and risky. The second is easy and anonymous and involves no personal risk. So far, you have chosen the easy way out. The question is, do you have it in you to do the right thing?

Qutbi-Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#149

Unread post by Qutbi-Hero » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:23 pm

Humsafar wrote:DB-Londoner,
Good to see you coming back with a vengeance. If I remember it correctly, you had gone away in a huff promising never to waste of your time here anymore. Looks like you seem to have a lot of time to waste now, lol.
After correcting your opinions so thoroughly last time, I don't blame you for remembering incorrectly Humsy! The reality was the exact opposite - no huff at all, and I actually promised to be back again to waste even more time producing even more novel length posts for everyone's enlightenment lol. There is no need to be embarrassed about not having the gumption to reply to them before... I'm impressed that you do now, so good to see you back too bro!

As you're one of the few intelligent dudes here Humsy, I hope you can fill the gaping void that AZ left behind...
We reformists have achieved much and still there is a long way to go, no doubt.
Decades ago sure, but what major strides have you guys made recently? What in your opinion, is the way to go?
But before you pick holes with our movement it would only make sense that you first catch up with us.
Catch up in what sense bro? To have few if any Masjids, to have declining morality and increasing social problems, to be losing our identity and becoming Westernised, to having serious worries about the future of our children and grandchildren etc etc?

Unfortunately Humsy, the magnificent "philosophical" benefits you love to espouse so often, are not worth the sacrifice. This has to be remedied before it's too late, wouldn't you say?
Otherwise it would seem hypocritical on your part. The noise and talk is coming from you without any action.
Apart from apostatising, what real "action" have you personally taken dude?
If your really want this movement to progress then please do something in your local jamat, stir up people there, prick their conscience, tell them about the true Shia Islam that you love so much, tell them the Dawat and Kothar are not living like Ali and are never going to die like Hussain. Tell them that Bohras are living a life of shirk, it is not a life Ahle Bayt would approve. Tell them that they and you must do something about it. Point to the examples of Udaipur and other reformists jamats. Tell them freedom from the clutches of the Kothar is possible, only that it won't be given to you on a platter. In Udaipur it was not give to us on a platter either. You'll have to fight for it, make sacrifices, do something more than furiously "blogging" here. The real change will come from the jamat level, by organising people, by talking to people, your friends, family, colleagues. We'll have to change one Bohra at a time, one jamat at a time.
Very well said my friend, I agree wholeheartedly, although you speak as if DBs don't know how corrupt the Kothar is; trust me they all know very well. Unfortunately, like I explained to you before, the alternative you Reformers offer is far worse than what we have at present.

Are you in the UK bro? Do you have a family? If you do then you'll be well aware how tragic the situation is in the Samma Pux. I don't want that for my family, nor does any other DB. Do you think they would do something major like join the Reformist Jamaat in London, if even a minor thing like getting them to join this website, becomes an insurmountable obstacle due to the lack of respect for the Shia faith which is allowed here? Believe me, I've tried.
This forum is just a place to discuss and exchange ideas. It will not bring a revolution in and of itself. Yes it can help facilitate communication, bring people together, but any meaningful change will come only at individual local jamat level. This is very important to understand.
What you need to understand, is that people will only jump over the fence, if the grass is greener... please make it greener dude, I'm begging you!
The idea of human resources is good, and best way to find these resources is among your people whom you meet on a regular basis, talk to them, express your ideas, get them into confidence, build a mini-movement within your jamat, and when you have enough numbers stand up to the local goondas and the aamil. Challenge them, protest against their unreasonable demands, ask for accounts, refuse to pay up. Unless you take these actions, nothing will change.
This already happens in every Jammat - nobody hands over their hard earned money willingly my friend lol!
We from the outside can give you moral support, maybe financial help and guidance and such.
I doubt that brother. You guys can barely look after yourselves, never-mind anyone else.
But real change must come from within led by aware and awakened people like you.
Absolutely. Like my wife says, it took the Kothar 100 years to rise, unfortunately it will also take 100 years for them to fall... and fall they most certainly will as every generation produces a greater and greater proportion of people who are educated and questioning. The power of the Kothar will diminish organically of its own accord, this is inevitable... all empires, no matter how strong, eventually expire or are overthrown...

The point is Humsy, I would prefer it to happen sooner, so I can see it (and enjoy it!) while I'm alive lol!
So the choice is yours. If you're really sincere and serious about bringing about change then you would get cracking.
I would say the same to you brother, why not add to the collective effort by contributing here = http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=9009
Or you can come here and shout off your mouth and call us names. The first option is tough and slow and risky. The second is easy and anonymous and involves no personal risk. So far, you have chosen the easy way out. The question is, do you have it in you to do the right thing?
We are both part of the same hypocrisy Humsy lol!
All this place does is anonymously whine and gossip and exaggerate and shout and call names at the DBs... which hasn't accomplished anything whatsoever.

You, me and everyone else need to stop being either complacent or arguing with each other, and instead define some concrete goals and work together to achieve them, don't you think? Once again, see you there bro ---> http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=9009

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#150

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:41 pm

Yes, in the long run everything will whither and die. Greatest of empires have gone to dust. The point is, what are you doing to hasten the downfall of the Kothar. If you really care then do something. Running down reformists is NOT doing something. You will have to bring about change where you live, where your jamat is, where you interact with Bohras every day. Anything else you write and belabour about is just beside the point.
DB-Londoner wrote:We are both part of the same hypocrisy Humsy lol!
You do not know anything about me. By including me in your impotent hypocrisy don't think you can somehow mitigate your guilt. Nice try.