What has reform movement achieved?

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Fateh
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#91

Unread post by Fateh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:10 am

Bohra spring wrote:Why are there no statistics from India regarding what reformists have achieved in this year?

I think we need to deliver light soft influence .but not the only way..sitting on the fence and attracting them through window shopping is not fast enough to cause significant dent in the kothars operations ...we have been doing that for many year. And as TB says we have not much to show as results, and I agree. I know this is self criticism but if we don't kothar surely would regard us with the same view.. We don't last long and we fizzle out soon.

I am waiting for someone from PDB to confirm if they have noticed mass exodus ? If not then what do we have to show that our protests are delivering people who seek freedom and better life outside their slavery.

I have a different view from Alam..the reform movement needs to take a more assertive mode...create a strong alternative society that pulls liberal minded bohra across. And once we have a critical mass we live separately , have a self sustaining large society . We can create our own community.

Now if the above is too divisive idea and is unacceptable then we need to seed enough ideas within the community to create ruptures and a self driven over throwing of the regime. This way we cause a renaissance and keep the community one. Both are not easy ..even they may sound sexy, I am not delusional...but don't like the alternative of just waiting and hoping the problem will go away with time and the administrators will self reform.

Even in earlier Islamic conquers, the Prophet had to take the fight to the unbelievers ...Makkah did not just accept Islam...they surrendered when they saw the warriors at the city limits. History is full of precedence , even India has to take action.

If the reformist insist on a soft approach then we will continue the blogging for a very long time.

So the point is what will we do differently in 2014 to cause kothar to be unstable ...how will we raise the tempo of our protests, reforms etc.

If abdes want to remain with Kothar at their free will so be it it is their choice, I am not suggesting we impose our beliefs and values on them.

Also We just seem to lack leadership to carry the fight and if someone does take the lead very few follow and support the initiative. We seem to get distracted and are happy to just complain and rely on luck if someone on their own takes the fight .

I have examples..the fGM issue fizzled out in India ..very few supported the women who petitioned ? Why a we so timid

The case in udaipur where the were riots or abuses during Ramadan ..no follow up with the police cases..if there were no one reported them.

So yes we have achieved significant milestones , with fewer capacity and congrats to the initiators but we as broader reformists have been unable to leverage the small gains for greater change .
I have a different view from Alam..the reform movement needs to take a more assertive mode...create a strong alternative society that pulls liberal minded bohra across. And once we have a critical mass we live separately , have a self sustaining large society . We can create our own community.

I am totally agree with you ,a vast no. of like minded people is waiting for a alternative society but due to lack of proper channel & guidance all are scattered can not build a mass

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#92

Unread post by incredible » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:02 am

^ yup true, process need to be speed fast.

think
Posts: 1834
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#93

Unread post by think » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:14 pm

those who visit this website will get these jewels in return.
where mind is without fear and the head is held high. where knowledge is free.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#94

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:28 pm

alam,
I agree with you in broad terms, and am in favour of engaging in dialouge and healthy debate. However, I cannot accept your chracterisation that in this scenario the victims and perpetrators are the same. They are not. The perpetrators are the mafia clergy (a name-calling I allow myself) and the victims are the abdes (a derogatory term indeed but given them by Dai himself, and they seem to readily accept it).
alam wrote:Those whom people on this forum refer to as "abdes" are the same people whose rights are trampled upon, even more so, and their wounds are way too deep for them to even begin to acknowledge.
Correct, their rights are being trampled upon BUT only so far as they allow them to. There is no earthly reason for Bohras to helplessly wallow in victimhood, as if they are so abjectly miserable and defeated that they cannot do something about their situation. Even the Quran says that even Allah cannot help those who cannot help themselves. The Bohra system in the past two generations has inflicted so much violence on their soul and spirituality that their conscience is dead and their zameer moribund. They have no one to blame but themselves for this shameful state of affairs.
alam wrote:If we truly want to make a difference and get people to resonate with not just your point of view, but truly RESONATE With THEIR own experiences of humiliation of demeaning practices engaged int he NAME OF RELIGION then the authentic dialogue will prevail.
I agree, and over the years many of us have tried - and still trying - to present the reality in a way that "resonates" with their experience and humiliation. How many abdes do you think this approach has changed? Very few, if at all. This is not say that we abandon this approach, perhaps this is the only sane strategy we reformists/outsiders have. But, as I keep saying, the real change must come from within. It's time we stopped feeling sorry for abdes. They have no excuse to accept a life of indignity, insult and humiliation. They are not hapless Jews in a Nazi gas chamber, they are not Palestinians being crushed under Zionist jackboots. Even Palestinians are challenging and resisting their tormentor risking all they have. Bohras face no such dire situation. What is stopping them from standing up for their rights? We can dialogue and debate all we want but nothing will change unless abdes get off their sorry asses, jolt themselves out of their moral inertia and do something about their goddamn situation.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#95

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:51 pm

Bohra spring wrote:If abdes want to remain with Kothar at their free will so be it it is their choice, I am not suggesting we impose our beliefs and values on them.
Bohra spring,
To repeat myself, the ultimate change must come from within. Nobody is holding abdes at a gunpoint, and they don't need a gun to their head to make them change. On our part of course we reformists can and could do more to expose the notoriety and illegitimacy of the mafia clergy. But there's little we can do to wake people who do not want to wake up.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#96

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:44 pm

A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.

--- Mahatma Gandhi

Bohra spring
Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#97

Unread post by Bohra spring » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:36 pm

Humsafar is it fair to say such passive views, and I wonder if it is majority view within reformist, are holding back PDB to be more successful movement. Why are alternative strategies being repulsed ?

GM Bhai well said

TB can you still hear the silence...

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#98

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:58 pm

true_bohra wrote:I hope there is no achievement
These types of statements are expected from people like you who are braindead and have lost the power to think, introspect and analyse the whole scenario from a neutral perspective. You are destined to be slaves of a master who exploits you 24x7 and milks you high and dry and prefer to live in a pond, unaware of the vast oceans existing outside your cocoon....... a typical 'kuva me medak' !!!

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#99

Unread post by alam » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:52 pm

Humsafar wrote:alam,
I agree with you in broad terms, and am in favour of engaging in dialouge and healthy debate. However, I cannot accept your chracterisation that in this scenario the victims and perpetrators are the same. They are not. The perpetrators are the mafia clergy (a name-calling I allow myself) and the victims are the abdes (a derogatory term indeed but given them by Dai himself, and they seem to readily accept it).
alam wrote:Those whom people on this forum refer to as "abdes" are the same people whose rights are trampled upon, even more so, and their wounds are way too deep for them to even begin to acknowledge.
Correct, their rights are being trampled upon BUT only so far as they allow them to..
I need to make a Clarification from my earlier Point that
Not all victims and perpetrators are interchangeable. Just that some victims are also perpetrators. Some perpetrators may have also been victims themselves, or are currently victims.

Its an heirarchy - a pecking order.

Some of us may have witnessed CLERGY (bhai saheb, aamil saheb, or kothar staff person - however you define it) who are routinely humiliated by someone else from a higher pecking order.

LEt me give an example (THis is a fact - not a made up fantasy) that might tickle your funny bone. People who are around Said ul Khair (son of Yusuf Najmuddin) may have routinely observed how he is frequently humiliated, scolded and demeaned in front of public by his Wife durratus sharaf (his first cousin). He takes it in without a word. Its hilarious to watch his face- the transformation from torturer to shameful/guilty face.
BTW - let me remind you that I'm in no way singling out THIS "royal" couple - They certainly don't have a patent on this free public display of humiliation.
There are COUNTLESS other examples - which you might recall.
SHehzadas routinely humiliate their right hand and left hand - or anyone who crosses their path
Their Chiefs of staff - routinely degrade their underhands and officeboys
THe Kothar staff- you get the drift. .. . .

Utimately it -(this oppression and humiliation) trickles down to the ordinary Bohra person - in its varied forms, who by far as a majority, are silent recipeints of this abuse, and they exert their SAINTLY WILL power to not perpetuate this cycle of oppression and violence.
Must we be Blaming the victims . . . hmm . . .hmm. .
Or could we try focusing on empowering them and ourselves? All of us.

Ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome?

I prefer to focus on a positive empowering dialogue to move this Revolution forward.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#100

Unread post by incredible » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:40 pm

Alam is correct, more than abdes, guys involve in so called "Khidmat" are more frustrated with all the insult they face on daily basis.

even I know few Amil who are always in constant stress.

Amils and jamiya ustaad and small mullah are forced to pay too much on yearly basis.

these are in form of

wajebaat
salaam
and other hubs

think
Posts: 1834
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#101

Unread post by think » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:46 am

amils may be paying wajebaats and salams, but then they exort it from the mumineens. Take from one hand, and give to the other.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#102

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:02 pm

alam,
The psychology behind the pecking order you describe is understandable, and even though it involves a tiny percentage, it is no justification for the systematic exploitation that goes on in the community. The boss yelling at his subordinates, and subordinates in turn yelling at their subordinates and so on is a function of power equation present in all human relationships. We all know that. But insult and humiliation are used by mafia clergy as tactics to keep Bohras servile. In the majority of the cases insult and humiliation is the result and not the cause of oppression. At the core is the agenda of exploitation of Bohras, and it is applied by the mafia clergy apparatus systemically and systematically. There are no two ways about it. The pecking order, or more accurately the feudal mindset of this self-declared royalty serves this agenda well. Let's not confuse the issue of who is the victim and who is the oppressor with some fancy psychobabble. And what has Stockholm Syndrome got to do with this? Bohras are not captives, nobody is holding them at a gunpoint. Agreed their brain and conscience maybe in deep freeze, but they have allowed it to be so. And there is nothing "saintly" about their suffering silently. By their very inaction they ARE "perpetuating the cycle of oppression and violence."

You may nobly term this as "blaming the victim", but at some point the victims must take personal responsibility for themselves and the situation they are in. For long Bohras have been paralysed by the self-defeating excuse of "su karsu". How can you empower a people who do not want to empowered. How can you wake up a people who do no want to wake up. This hopeless situation is I think the ultimate triumph of the mafia clergy - they have rendered the community so helpless, so weak and so self-defeated that it does not even want to lift a finger to change their situation.

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#103

Unread post by alam » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:40 pm

Humsafar wrote:alam, it is no justification for the systematic exploitation that goes on in the community.

the mafia clergy - they have rendered the community so helpless, so weak and so self-defeated that it does not even want to lift a finger to change their situation.
Precisely. I agree wholeheartedly on the above statements.

محمد
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 12:00 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#104

Unread post by محمد » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:43 pm

think wrote:amils may be paying wajebaats and salams, but then they exort it from the mumineens. Take from one hand, and give to the other.
they just follow the orders.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#105

Unread post by S. Insaf » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:15 am

Achievements of the reformist Bohras
I remember the first address of Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer to Bohra reformists. As an eminent social activist he had said:
1. Stop fighting on your opponent ground. (We used to black-flag demonstrations on Syedna’s arrival etc.) Compel your opponent to come to your ground and fight. We started seminars, conferences, public meetings and inquiry commissions. Syedna’s men in thousands came on ground to oppose them and were widely condemned. Then they stopped opposing us.
This was our major achievement.

2. We are Dawoodi Bohras. So we named our organizations and outfits as “Bohra Youth”, “Dawoodi Bohra Jamat”and “Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community” etc. Which was initially opposed on our ground by Syedna’s men but then they stopped and changed their Jamats in to Anjumans, Anjumane Shiate Ali, Anjumane Burhani, Anjumane Taheri etc.
This was our achievement.

3. When Syedna refused to perform the reformists nikahs. We arranged the “Mass-marriages” programs. Initially Syedna claimed that such nikahs are invalid and children produced out of such wedlock would have physical and mental disabilities. He proved wrong and hence stopped opposing them. Not only that, he also started mass-marriages program naming them as “Rasme-Saifee”.
This was our achievement.

4. We started burying our dead in Bohra kabrastan under police protection. Initially Syedna’s men came in hundreds to oppose us claiming that we are not Dawoodi Bohras as we have not given misak to Syedna. They proved wrong and then stopped opposing, especially when the Supreme Court of India ruled that "......Dawoodi Bohras regardless of whether they have taken the Oath of Allegiance (misaq) or not and regardless of whether they have been excommunicated or not." A man like Dr Asghar Ali Engineer’s mother, Maryam bai, was allowed to bury in Kurla Bohra Kabrastan, where Mulla was send for Namaze-Janaza and sadqallah. Reformist Bohras including Dr. Asgar Ali Engineer prayed namaze-Janaza in the mosque without any opposition.
This was our achievement.

5. In Janta rule in 1977 we contacted the Prime Minister, Morarji Desai, who had seen the dead body of Amtullah bai on the footpath of Charni Road footpath and then had described the Mullaji “Monstrous” in the legislative assembly of Bombay Province. He became instrumental in appointing of “Justice Nathwani/Tarkunde Inquiry Commission”.
Syedna never wanted to come his atrocities, his un-Islamic inhuman practices, his extortion, his absolute power and dictatorship in black and white and he knew how destorous this commission would be for his epmire. Therefore Syedna used all the force and tricks under his command to stop this commission from functioning. But when the second commission “Justice Tiwetia Inquiry Commission” held his inquiry there was no opposition.
More than 30 years have passed but Syedna has not challenged the findings of these commissions.
This is our achievement.

6. Once the reports of these commissions reports were out in public, we filed a Writ petition no. 740 of 1986. Syedna’s son late Huzefa Mohinuddin took 10 years to file his response. After the mass-revolt in Udaipur in 1973, Syedna unleashed a reign of terror on the community and hundreds of Bohras suffered due to excommunication, which had become easy tool in the hands of Syedna’s Amils. But after filing the writ petition now the incidents of excommunication is hardly heard. Even those few who are excommunicated or threatened have taken up to challenge.
This is our achievement.

7. Syedna’s family, his entire administration is so afraid of the reformists that they have introduced ‘Dress-Code”, ‘E-Jamat cards’ and now smart cards. There programs are announced at the last moment.

8. Lastly the reformist Bohras are standing firm on their principles in spite of all odds and fighting for their rights.
This, itself is our biggest achievement.

KM1
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#106

Unread post by KM1 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:43 am

S. Insaf wrote:Achievements of the reformist Bohras
4. We started burying our dead in Bohra kabrastan under police protection. Initially Syedna’s men came in hundreds to oppose us claiming that we are not Dawoodi Bohras as we have not given misak to Syedna. They proved wrong and then stopped opposing, especially when the Supreme Court of India ruled that "......Dawoodi Bohras regardless of whether they have taken the Oath of Allegiance (misaq) or not and regardless of whether they have been excommunicated or not." A man like Dr Asghar Ali Engineer’s mother, Maryam bai, was allowed to bury in Kurla Bohra Kabrastan, where Mulla was send for Namaze-Janaza and sadqallah. Reformist Bohras including Dr. Asgar Ali Engineer prayed namaze-Janaza in the mosque without any opposition.
This was our achievement.

SO THEN Y WAS ASGHAR ENGINEER BURIED IN SUNNI QABARASTAN?



5. In Janta rule in 1977 we contacted the Prime Minister, Morarji Desai, who had seen the dead body of Amtullah bai on the footpath of Charni Road footpath and then had described the Mullaji “Monstrous” in the legislative assembly of Bombay Province. He became instrumental in appointing of “Justice Nathwani/Tarkunde Inquiry Commission”.
Syedna never wanted to come his atrocities, his un-Islamic inhuman practices, his extortion, his absolute power and dictatorship in black and white and he knew how destorous this commission would be for his epmire. Therefore Syedna used all the force and tricks under his command to stop this commission from functioning. But when the second commission “Justice Tiwetia Inquiry Commission” held his inquiry there was no opposition.
More than 30 years have passed but Syedna has not challenged the findings of these commissions.
This is our achievement.

KINDLY POST ANY RESULT OR BENEFIT OF THE FINDING OR ANY ACTION TAKEN

6. Once the reports of these commissions reports were out in public, we filed a Writ petition no. 740 of 1986. Syedna’s son late Huzefa Mohinuddin took 10 years to file his response. After the mass-revolt in Udaipur in 1973, Syedna unleashed a reign of terror on the community and hundreds of Bohras suffered due to excommunication, which had become easy tool in the hands of Syedna’s Amils. But after filing the writ petition now the incidents of excommunication is hardly heard. Even those few who are excommunicated or threatened have taken up to challenge.
This is our achievement.

7. Syedna’s family, his entire administration is so afraid of the reformists that they have introduced ‘Dress-Code”, ‘E-Jamat cards’ and now smart cards. There programs are announced at the last moment.

8. Lastly the reformist Bohras are standing firm on their principles in spite of all odds and fighting for their rights.
This, itself is our biggest achievement.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#107

Unread post by S. Insaf » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:46 pm

According to my sources looking a world-wide popularity of Asghar bhai even Kothar had issued order not to oppose his burial in any Bohra Kabrastan, but it was Asghar bhai’s will to burry him with his one time friends like, Jan Nisar Akhtar, Majrooh Sultanpuri, Kaifee Azmi etc., so he was buried in Juhu Muslim kabrastan.

The impact of Inquiry Commission was world-wide in the form of condemnation of Syedna. Thereafter prominent Muslim ulemas have stop associating with Syedna and his family members. Though the reports of the two commissions have not reached to the Bohras in general, but still the awareness that they have created is phenomenon. Even our case in the Supreme Court of India based on thee commissions’ reports is pending.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#108

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:02 pm

SI thank you for listing and describing the achievements...how can such examples be exported and copycat plans tested globally ?

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#109

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:33 pm

KM1 wrote:KINDLY POST ANY RESULT OR BENEFIT OF THE FINDING OR ANY ACTION TAKEN
The reports of two commissions were a damning indictment of Sayedna saheb and his regime. It exposed deliberate and systematic human rights violation of Bohras by the clergy. Scores of Bohras deposed before the commissions with their heart-wrenching tales of torment, harassment and humiliation. These reports are now in public domain, on record, and will go into the annals of Bohra history. The future generations will read about it and feel shame. The fact that the Kothar did not dare challenge the reports is in itself a proof of the rightness of the reformist cause. Sadly, ever since the reports came out the community has regressed further into control and repression. This speaks to the arrogance of the mafia clergy and stupefied acceptance of it by people like you.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#110

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:49 pm

KM1 wrote:KINDLY POST ANY RESULT OR BENEFIT OF THE FINDING OR ANY ACTION TAKEN
The Indian Courts Observations On The Dai's Conduct.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=8848

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#111

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:27 pm

PDB achievement ....Freeing one bohra at a time.

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#112

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:56 am

S. Insaf wrote:According to my sources looking a world-wide popularity of Asghar bhai even Kothar had issued order not to oppose his burial in any Bohra Kabrastan, but it was Asghar bhai’s will to burry him with his one time friends like, Jan Nisar Akhtar, Majrooh Sultanpuri, Kaifee Azmi etc., so he was buried in Juhu Muslim kabrastan.
You are master in bringing proofs and evidences. If kothar had issued order then you must be having a copy of it. Can you post it here??

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#113

Unread post by S. Insaf » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:22 am

We stood firm against Syedna’s propaganda that the “Reformists are enemy of ‘Dawat’ and ‘Religion’. And because of their movement ‘Islam’ is in danger. Today Muslims in general have realized that it is Syedna whose practices are against Islam. Recently the Darul Uloom Deoband, internationally known Islamic seminary has ruled in its fatwa, that like Qadianis, Dawoodi Bohras, are non-Muslims

We stood firm against Syedna’s militancy and terror tactics and ultimately compelled him to change his policies. Recently Zehra ben Cyclewala, under police protection, observed Ramazan prayers in Surat’s Bohra Masjid and then went to visit Qutbuddin Shaheed’s dargah in Ahmedabad and Fakhruddin Shaheed’s Mazar in Galiakot, accompanied by a closed confident of Mufaddal Saifuddin, Badri leswala from Surat, who gave her VIP room at Mazar to stay and served her Fateha thal. In all these occasion there was no mass opposition from Bohras.
Which clearly shows that we, reformists are successful in absolving militancy and fanaticism from Bohra Psychic. Recently in Udaipur both youth and Shabab Bohras fought election together.

We stood firm against fanatic assaults by misguided Bohra mob and ultimately made it realized that we are not against Fatemi Dawat.

We stood firm on our Dawoodi Bohra faith and Dawoodi Bohra Jamats. Syedna and his blind followers ultimately walked out of both forming their own Anjumans and their own version of Saifee Burhani faith.

KM1
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#114

Unread post by KM1 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:31 am

S. Insaf wrote:We stood firm against Syedna’s propaganda that the “Reformists are enemy of ‘Dawat’ and ‘Religion’. And because of their movement ‘Islam’ is in danger. Today Muslims in general have realized that it is Syedna whose practices are against Islam. Recently the Darul Uloom Deoband, internationally known Islamic seminary has ruled in its fatwa, that like Qadianis, Dawoodi Bohras, are non-Muslims

so SI are you supporting them and are you happy with this development?

We stood firm against Syedna’s militancy and terror tactics and ultimately compelled him to change his policies. Recently Zehra ben Cyclewala, under police protection, observed Ramazan prayers in Surat’s Bohra Masjid and then went to visit Qutbuddin Shaheed’s dargah in Ahmedabad and Fakhruddin Shaheed’s Mazar in Galiakot, accompanied by a closed confident of Mufaddal Saifuddin, Badri leswala from Surat, who gave her VIP room at Mazar to stay and served her Fateha thal. In all these occasion there was no mass opposition from Bohras.
Which clearly shows that we, reformists are successful in absolving militancy and fanaticism from Bohra Psychic. Recently in Udaipur both youth and Shabab Bohras fought election together.

What have you gained or reformist by one lady going and doing this? has any great changes or any new rules or has she been appointed in any of the trust or any position?

We stood firm against fanatic assaults by misguided Bohra mob and ultimately made it realized that we are not against Fatemi Dawat.

We stood firm on our Dawoodi Bohra faith and Dawoodi Bohra Jamats. Syedna and his blind followers ultimately walked out of both forming their own Anjumans and their own version of Saifee Burhani faith.
So whats the big deal ? have they stopped collecting any funds or appointed you anywhere ?

KM1
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#115

Unread post by KM1 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:32 am

KM1 wrote:
S. Insaf wrote:We stood firm against Syedna’s propaganda that the “Reformists are enemy of ‘Dawat’ and ‘Religion’. And because of their movement ‘Islam’ is in danger. Today Muslims in general have realized that it is Syedna whose practices are against Islam. Recently the Darul Uloom Deoband, internationally known Islamic seminary has ruled in its fatwa, that like Qadianis, Dawoodi Bohras, are non-Muslims

so SI are you supporting them and are you happy with this development?

We stood firm against Syedna’s militancy and terror tactics and ultimately compelled him to change his policies. Recently Zehra ben Cyclewala, under police protection, observed Ramazan prayers in Surat’s Bohra Masjid and then went to visit Qutbuddin Shaheed’s dargah in Ahmedabad and Fakhruddin Shaheed’s Mazar in Galiakot, accompanied by a closed confident of Mufaddal Saifuddin, Badri leswala from Surat, who gave her VIP room at Mazar to stay and served her Fateha thal. In all these occasion there was no mass opposition from Bohras.
Which clearly shows that we, reformists are successful in absolving militancy and fanaticism from Bohra Psychic. Recently in Udaipur both youth and Shabab Bohras fought election together.

What have you gained or reformist by one lady going and doing this? has any great changes or any new rules or has she been appointed in any of the trust or any position?

We stood firm against fanatic assaults by misguided Bohra mob and ultimately made it realized that we are not against Fatemi Dawat.

We stood firm on our Dawoodi Bohra faith and Dawoodi Bohra Jamats. Syedna and his blind followers ultimately walked out of both forming their own Anjumans and their own version of Saifee Burhani faith.
So whats the big deal ? have they stopped collecting any funds or appointed you anywhere ?

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#116

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:35 am

@S Insaf:
I certainly asked you some other question. You did not reply to that.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#117

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:33 am

SI ignore distraction you are on the roll ...TB what proof do you want ...am I giving you more credit than you are earning

Go Reformist go

Quotes from a great reformer of our times The late Nelson Mandela
“If I had my time over I would do the same again, so would any man who dares call himself a man.” (After being convicted to five years hard labor, November 1962)

"I was made, by the law, a criminal, not because of what I had done, but because of what I stood for, because of what I thought, because of my conscience.” (Statement during trial, 1962)

“I can only say that I felt morally obliged to do what I did.” (At the opening of his trial, April 20, 1964)

“Social equality is the only basis of human happiness.” (A letter written on August 1, 1970)

“Difficulties break some men but make others.” (From a letter to wife, Winnie Mandela, from Robben Island, February 1975)

“I came to accept that I have no right whatsoever to judge others in terms of my own customs.” (From his unpublished autobiographical manuscript, 1975)

"Great anger and violence can never build a nation. We are striving to proceed in a manner and towards a result, which will ensure that all our people, both black and white, emerge as victors.” (Speech to European Parliament, 1990)

“Without democracy there cannot be peace.” (South Africa, May 9, 1992)

“We are fighting for a society where people will cease thinking in terms of colour.” (March 8, 1993)

“When a man has done what he considers to be his duty to his people and his country, he can rest in peace.” (Interview for Mandela, 1994)

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice.” (December 16, 1995)

"I can rest only for a moment, for with freedom come responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not yet ended." (From Long Walk to Freedom, 1995)

"For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others." (From Long Walk to Freedom, 1995)

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." (From Long Walk to Freedom, 1995)

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#118

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:50 am

@bohra spring:
Insaf said he have information that kothar issued order for asghar's burial in bohra kabrastan. so let him produce the order copies.
He has a top notch sources who can give him all these details. and i believe he will get one.

And I am no one to have credits from you. I just want my mind to be clear when he said about asghar's burial.

If reformist can demand logical reasoning in everything, why cant abdes??? let us also have logical reasoning in this matter.. :lol:

KM1
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#119

Unread post by KM1 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:48 am

:D SI congrats u r getting credit from BS :lol: I am sure everyone is guessing

For whattt :roll: which i think even you dont know :wink:


Pls stop giving credits and work more seriously towards the right cause and beating around the bush and false claims

Deerseye
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:30 am

Re: 2013 reformist achievements

#120

Unread post by Deerseye » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:07 am

Sometimes I get fed up ,reading so many arguments on the forum, and I fail to understand why we are working our selves out to convince people likeKM and TB. We know very well that in their hearts they know the truth.. Today the Kothar has money power and it thinks that it can do anything on this earth with money, but there is something called justice also ,and when THE ALMIGHTY will raise his hand all that is false will perish. The QURAN promises that truth will always win.