Muffadal to visit Udaipur, appeals reformists to join fold

[SBM]

Br Zinger
Let us first get Syedna get his own house in order like having Mazoon, his own Uncle join and work the things out first before pointing fingers to others

there is no guarantee that there will be no more disputes. Some people will always have a point to moan and bitch about

Example is Mazoon and Taizoon (zahir and Batin) no need to go outside, the trust and bridge building should start from within first.

[Maqbool]

Moula wants them to come back. Then why he is not trying. He can call all youth and assure to discuss on the points Insaf has quoted. Hope some body ask moula to try this way to break the deadlock.

Agreed. This war has gone on for long enough. We need to be one again.
Compromises WILL have to be made by both sides, but in the end, it shall be all good.

This would be the ideal scenario Maqbool, but unfortunately for some people within the reformist fold, the hate is directed at not just the person or the seat, but at the community and everything Dawoodi Bohra. and no matter how much they deny it, the proof is there for all to see. Why else would people question the customs and practices? Mausalu, Kaatho Kutwanu, Wadhavanu,,, all these have been around for generations. This is not something new. Agreed, Kadambosi and Ziafat is

The fight that some people on this side fight is not for truth and justice and the Dawoodi Bohra way but purely out of hatred

Assuming that a consensus is reached from all sides and we become one, there is no guarantee that there will be no more disputes. Some people will always have a point to moan and bitch about

If you say that the Kothar needs to clean up their act, then the reformists need to do that too

i am not pointing fingers at anyone. i am just saying that there is good and bad on both sides.

Zinger,
The hatred is from both the side. Unfortunately you see it from one angle.
The katha pisevo and all was not for a long time it was only at Surat, for others it was some thing else. Since the Boosahebs book came it was forced to all.
If Mansoos really wants the progressive comes back, Then he should not be arrogant and must accept at lease the demand for democracy in forming jamats and the accounts is to be made public.

[zinger]

Maqbool, we traditioanal DB have absolutely no reason to hate you the Reformists my friend.

the hatred is there from your side towards the Daawat. This results in abuses and ridicule for us and our Dai which results in hatred from us towards you.

this is an endless vicious cycle which needs a lot of effort to break.

[alam]

A watsup msg doing rounds in Bohra circles on Muffy's Udaipur visit :-

Mufaddal maula said in Bayaan:

"Mumenin ma to nahi magar je bija che ye em kahe ke humne kaho naa ke aam karo aam karo..... su tamne ye joye che ke tamne koi kai kahej naa ? Je karwu hoi te karwa de ? To jao Karo...... Em kaun karto tho ke Muawiya... To Muawaiya saathe thai jaso !".

.

This is exactly the Divisive and threatenign rhetoric preached that alienates and promotes the hatred toward those who speak up and question practices that go on Dawat.

By the same logic, is it not really the case that the Syedna and Mansoos himself have the same position they argue against. One could say the Exact Same thing to them - "su tamne ye joye che ke tamne koi kai kahej naa ? Je karwu hoi te karwa de ? . . . "

Isn't this in fact what the official position of Kothar, QasreAali, And Dawat is? That "hamaare je Karwoo chey, yeh hamey karisoo. Hamne koi Kai Bhe Kahej naa".

Double standards here.

[think]

muffy's policy; ya come back come back, so we do not have any resistance and rule over you like lords and will get more sabil and wajebaats from you. come on over come on over, but do not ask any questions. Be like our slave abdes. They do anything we ask them to do whether right or wrong whether human or inhuman. You are not allowed to think.so come on over We will even feed you from the money we make from the blind sethias.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Let us first get Syedna get his own house in order

I agree. At the same time, shouldn't the Reformists do the same?
Your own house is falling apart SBM so please try and fix it before it's too late... or do you believe it is too late now?

[phorendude]

Another appeal from Shabab Bohras to Youth group on 30th December, 2013

http://imgur.com/xl3XA2w

[zinger]

Another appeal from Shabab Bohras to Youth group on 30th December, 2013

http://imgur.com/xl3XA2w

Here's your chance. counter this ad with one of your own. put down those 7-8 conditions that you have. let them be made public.

make it clear that you want atleast the basic conditions like an MOU, videographing, an agreement to be signed etc first.

Here's your chance. go for it.

Put the ball in the Kothar's court. Force them to acknowledge your demands. If you have no response from them then we all know how how committed they are to the effort. that will show the whole world that what you guys are saying is correct.

[humble_servant_us]

Unity is always good and this is something which Allah(Swt) also likes.

I think it is Sayedna who is responsible in creating this division because he has not respected the difference of opinion and concerns of youth. His garb of divinity itself is a great impediment in achieving unity.

[zinger]

Sorry, just one thing more so that tomorrow you guys dont come baying for my blood.

My suggestion above is in your best interest.

Assuming that you do decide to do it and assuming that the Kothar ignores it, please dont ask me silly questions like "what do you have to say about this now" or "what are you going to do now" or "what do you think we should do now"

i wont have an answer for them. i am not the kothar nor am i representing them. so dont look for answers from me

im just giving you a suggestion because i dont have a solution

[Humsafar]

This latest ad by the orthodox is a just a publicity stunt and as usual a blatant lie. The two sides have met and we did put our demands before them, but what they want is unconditional surrender. They want us to come back, take the misaq, no questions asked. That is not going to happen.

[think]

why gujrati. what ever happened to deeni zabaan, i.e. spoken guju but written in arabic alphabets.

[ghulam muhammed]

The two sides have met and we did put our demands before them, but what they want is unconditional surrender. They want us to come back, take the misaq, no questions asked.

I just remembered a Quranic verse (3:159) which encourages the Prophet (s.a.w.) to consult people before finalising his decisions.

"And by the Mercy of Allah, you dealt with them gently. And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you; so pass over (their faults), and ask (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in the affairs (*wa shaavirhum fil amri*). Then when you have taken a decision, put your trust in Allah, certainly, Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him)."

[Bohra spring]

This latest ad by the orthodox is a just a publicity stunt and as usual a blatant lie. The two sides have met and we did put our demands before them, but what they want is unconditional surrender. They want us to come back, take the misaq, no questions asked. That is not going to happen.

Who met who, what represented each party ? What was the venue. What demands we're put forward by reformists ? A serious mediation is done systematically with an independent arbitrator. Did we respond in a sophisticated way or lead . Even if kothar was not sincere we can turn the tables. Did PDB take advantage of the opportunity to push forward their agenda ?

Was this a call to Udaipur PDB jamat or was it to all reformists worldwide noting worldwide reformist don't read Hindi or Gujarati?

What next another long wait until when another opportunity calls ?

[ghulam muhammed]

Reformist Dawoodi Bohra Suffering in Udaipur.

http://www.desifeed.com/videofeed/JmgV4JiXArA

[Reporter]

In the New Year life for Bohras in Udaipur begins on a sour note. Muffadal Mansoos left Udaipur last night, Dec 31st, declaring a renewed baraat (ex-communication) against reformists. The newspaper ads inviting reformists come back into the fold proved to be just gimmicks as suspected all along. The Kothar refused to address the issues and grievances reformists have. The first demand put to the Kothar was to end the practice of baraat. Ironically, the Mansoos left in a huff and has imposed strict baraat. Now whatever little interactions being tolerated so far will come to an end. Families will be split again. Not a good way to begin the new year.

[seeker110]

The man is so comfortable sitting in a masjid and collecting Bhatta, did you for a minute think he will work with people outside his comfort zone. He is not capable to sit for any meeting of the bohras on either side. Forget the Mola who is for the people. Divide and rule, it worked for 51,52 and now the new and vested haq na sardar cannot be any different. Only thing he has built so far is a catering business.

[anajmi]

It is mind boggling that even after so much baraat, the progressives are still entertaining the idea of joining the mainstream jamaat even if their demands are met, which will never happen. The biggest punch in the face for the kotharis is for the progressives to join the Sunni Jamaat. They will be invited with open arms and you will be able to be part of a big and powerful community again. You will have the backing of the Sunni Jamaat and with such a force behind you, the Syedna and his goons will no longer be able to torture you like they normally do. They won't be able to throw you out of mosques, nor confine you to the back like untouchables.

[hsnhussain]

Just want to know if this is true.
I heard one person bragging that after the visit of muffaddal bhaisaheb around 50% YouthBohra of Udaipur have taken misaq and returned to the orthodox.
I doubt that this is not true.

[ghulam muhammed]

I heard one person bragging that after the visit of muffaddal bhaisaheb around 50% YouthBohra of Udaipur have taken misaq and returned to the orthodox.I doubt that this is not true.

There are rumours that around 160 reformist families in Udaipur have joined Muffy's bandwagon after Dabba/Thaali was provided to them free of cost !! I too have my own doubts and probably someone like Reporter or Humsafar could elaborate more on the subject.

[Reporter]

This is not true. Yes, free dabbas were sent to many reformist houses, some accepted but many did not. However everybody told the delivery people not to come again. What were they thinking that reformists can be bribed with a free meal?

[Qutbi-Hero]

is for the progressives to join the Sunni Jamaat

Your true agenda is finally revealed, in plain sight, for all to see, without the rose-tinted glasses! (Not that you fooled many people before lol!)

The Reformists, Mr Engineer in particular, never wanted to move AWAY from Shia Islam. They (as we all do), want to move CLOSER to the beauty and righteousness of our Shia faith, and follow the original Fatimid traditions. For decades, the Kothar have been corrupting the purity of our religion, and manipulating our culture, for their own nefarious ends - we all want to be rid of them and get back to our original Fatimid Shia roots. That is what all Dawoodis and Reformists are fighting for.

If the Reform Movement had been about leaving the Shia faith and joining another (which it never was and never will be) - then we wouldn't be fighting at all... because joining a Sunni Jamaat is as easy as pie! I mean you've done it, so it obviously take much does it...

the progressives are still entertaining the idea of joining the mainstream jamaat even if their demands are met

Even more revealing!

When Reform does take place and the Kothar is defeated... we will emphatically declare victory! However you'll still say we have lost... and are still lost lol! Ultimately you do not want Reform at all. Your agenda is entirely different to ours. in fact it is AGAINST everything we want.

be part of a big and powerful community again

The Sunni community has VASTLY more and bigger problems than the DB community. Few, if anybody will jump from the frying pan in to the fire! Perhaps you should spend your ample time trying to get your own house in order, before so very very very desperately and doggedly, trying to persuade others to join you...

Myself and many other people, have regularly said that you (and the other 1 or 2 like you) do not belong here - with this post you've clearly proven that you absolutely and completely, don't belong here at all. You have an entirely different goal to what Dawoodis and Reformists want to achieve... indeed, your aim is exactly the OPPOSITE of what we want to accomplish.

Having said that, I hope Admin does not ban you... rather you leave of your own accord, or at the very least, start behaving in a manner which is respectful to the purpose of this website and the Movement it represents.

In conclusion, we will NEVER take the easy way out (and follow an arguably even more corrupted version of Islam) by becoming Sunni - no matter how hard you and your kind try. The knowledge of our history and our love of the Panjatan, will ensure we stay on the right path, no matter how hard it is, and how much we have to struggle. That is our Jihad.

PS: I'm using the word "we" not because I'm trying to speak on everyone's behalf - but to reinforce the fact that you're an outsider, who is an enemy to the Reform Movement and everything it stands for.

[anajmi]

The Reformists, Mr Engineer in particular, never wanted to move AWAY from Shia Islam.

Well, anyone who believes in Shia Islam, does not believe in Islam. It's a pity that only the Sunni's can say that they believe in Islam. Everyone else has to categorize. "shia Islam", "Dawoodi Bohra Islam", "Fatimid Islam" are all man made creations. The only true is Islam is just Islam!!

They (as we all do), want to move CLOSER to the beauty and righteousness of our Shia faith, and follow the original Fatimid traditions.

Yeah, pity. If only the Fatimid traditions had been aligned with the traditions of the prophet (saw) then you could've said - "follow the prophet's traditions"!!

I mean you've done it, so it obviously take much does it...

I think you meant to say - "so it obviously doesn't take much" and you are absolutely right. Following the true Islam is as easy as pie. You don't have to take misaq or get raza or give money to anyone. That is what true Islam is. It is easy. If it is difficult, then you are doing something wrong.

The Sunni community has VASTLY more and bigger problems than the DB community.

Sure. Doesn't mean it is wrong. The people might be wrong, but then that is true for communities everywhere. Those in charge of Fatimid traditions are also wrong. But according to you, the tradition itself is not wrong. The exact same thing applies to the Sunnis. If we can get past the hatred, then we can go take a look at the Quran and figure out what is the true Islam. And we have done that many times and at many places on this forum. The advocates of other kinds of Islam packed their bags and left a long time ago.

Myself and many other people, have regularly said that you (and the other 1 or 2 like you) do not belong here

Yeah and they all have something in common. I will let you figure out what that is.

your aim is exactly the OPPOSITE of what we want to accomplish.

My aim is to get on the right path as described in the Quran. If your path is opposite to that then all your reform is going to get you nothing.

our love of the Panjatan

Again, you are assuming that you have a copyright on "love" of Panjatan. You don't. You certainly don't love them cause you don't do anything that they did. You don't follow the actions of the Panjatan. You don't follow the traditions of the Panjatan. You follow "Fatimid" traditions. Any reason why they are not known as "Panjatan" traditions? On one side you have people who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (not Umayyid Traditions or Abbasid Traditions) and on the other side you have those following the "Fatimid" traditions. Who do you think is pure? If "Fatimid" traditions are pure, then why are they not known as the "Prophet's" traditions?

PS: I'm using the word "we" not because I'm trying to speak on everyone's behalf - but to reinforce the fact that you're an outsider, who is an enemy to the Reform Movement and everything it stands for.

Actually the only guy shitting on the reform movement for the last week is you. And that too only because he has a problem with 3 "Sunnis" on this forum. Imagine what will happen to any movement, that you are part of, if you run into some real issues!!!

[humble_servant_us]

Well, anyone who believes in Shia Islam, does not believe in Islam.

Shias and sunnis have difference of opinions. Someone might agree with one and some may agree with other. But I don't think any school of thought gives the right to call the other sect a unbeliever in Islam.

By calling shias unbelievers in Islam, are you not sounding like sipah e sahaba or sipah e jhangvi . It will not be a surprise if you tomorrow ask shias to be killed in the name of Islam.

It's a pity that only the Sunni's can say that they believe in Islam. Everyone else has to categorize. "shia Islam", "Dawoodi Bohra Islam", "Fatimid Islam" are all man made creations. The only true is Islam is just Islam!!

What about Sunni Islam when it conveniently categorizes into Hambali, Shafi, Maliki and hanafi. Your last line "true Islam is just Islam" contradicts your first line "Sunni's can say that they believe in Islam" because you have also added a name "Sunni" to your version of Islam. Yes we agree True islam is only Islam. This categorization of sects is not of Islam but just to differentiate the different schools of thought in Islam.

[anajmi]

Let us not compare apples and oranges. Forget about "Shia Islam" and "Sunni Islam". Let us go back to Islam that is taught in the Quran can we?

Besides, a sunni is one who belongs to Ahlus Sunnah. These are the people who follow the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). If you say that you are not a sunni, then I am not the one saying that you are an unbeliever. You are saying it yourself.

[anajmi]

This categorization of sects is not of Islam but just to differentiate the different schools of thought in Islam.

There is a big difference between the comparison of these 4 schools and the school that you apparently belong to. These 4 use the sunnah of the prophet (saw) and the Quran. They have sometimes arrived at different conclusions. But none are so wide apart as to create a brand new religion like you have. Followers of all 4 schools can easily pray in each other's mosques. No one will even look at them or question them. Not so with your school of thought.

The beauty of these 4 schools of thought is understood only if you dig deep. Let me give you an example. Jibrael (as) came to teach the prophet (saw) salaah. The prophet (saw) is known to prayed salaah with Jibrael (as) twice for each salaah. Once at the earliest possible time and once at the latest possible time. The 4 scholars that you have mentioned arrived at two different conclusions based upon this tradition of the prophet (saw).

One says that since Jibrael (as) is an angel, he doesn't need to pray fard salaah. Hence the salaah that the prophet (saw) prayed behind Jibrael (as) would be fard behind an Imam praying Nafil. The other school says that since Jibrael (as) was leading the prophet (saw) in salaah because it was a command of Allah in the first place, he was praying fard salaah. Hence the prayer of the prophet (saw) would be considered a fard behind an Imam praying fard.

So in both cases, you can pray fard behind an Imam whether he is praying fard or nafil. The conclusions are different, but the result is the same.

None of the 4 schools is actually concerned with who the rightful leader was after the prophet (saw) and who after him and who after him. They are concerned only with the commandments of Allah in the Quran and how the prophet (saw) fulfilled those commandments.

[humble_servant_us]

Forget about "Shia Islam" and "Sunni Islam". Let us go back to Islam that is taught in the Quran can we?

That is a more responsible statement.

The 4 scholars that you have mentioned arrived at two different conclusions based upon this tradition of the prophet (saw).

Exactly the imams of 4 schools did ijtehad and arrived at different conclusions. Likewise shia islam (particularly the twelvers) have come to different conclusions based on the traditions of prophet(pbuh). So why not respect this as the 5th school of thought. Differences do exist, yes major difference exists but is it as major as calling us as Kafirs.

I am not branding the 4 schools as right or wrong. My contention is you repeatedly calling shias as unbelievers which I am sure you will agree is not in line with quranic teachings.

We both want to submit to Allah(swt) and we go back to the prophet(pbuh) and quran to understand how we can obey and serve Allah(Swt). With our limited understanding we adhere to a thought process which we think will take us closer to Allah(swt). I personally disagree with the sunni school of thought on many issues but i would never call them unbelievers in Islam.

you love one Imam and hate the other. Like you people do!!

We love those who make friends with Allah(swt), his prophet(pbuh) and his progeny(pbut) and we hate those who are enemies of Allah(swt), his prophet(pbuh) and his progeny(pbut)

[humble_servant_us]

None of the 4 schools is actually concerned with who the rightful leader was after the prophet (saw) and who after him and who after him. They are concerned only with the commandments of Allah in the Quran and how the prophet (saw) fulfilled those commandments.

Actually you are wrong here. The sunnis have always considered Khliafa as a very important responsibility after the prophet(pbuh). It would be good if you go back to sunni books by some notable sunnis to understand how important they have considered the concept of leadership after the prophet(pbuh),

[SBM]

None of the 4 schools is actually concerned with who the rightful leader was after the prophet (saw) and who after him and who after him. They are concerned only with the commandments of Allah in the Quran and how the prophet (saw) fulfilled those commandments.

If so why the different category why can not they all become one,
I agree with you comment that every MUSLIM is Ahle Sunnah, Many in Shia community think that Ahle Sunnah means Sunni when the meaning of Ahle Sunnah is the follower of Sunnah or the followers of Prophet Mohammed. Every Muslim except Ahmadiyas are the followers of Prophet Mohammed and thus even SHIAS are Ahle Sunnah
(Follower of Mohammed means that they all accept Prophet Mohammed as last messenger of Allah and Khatem Un Nabeen)

[Admin]

The shia/sunni discussion must end here. Posts continuing this discussion will be deleted after this.