Muffadal to visit Udaipur, appeals reformists to join fold

[bohra_manus]

The shia/sunni discussion must end here. Posts continuing this discussion will be deleted after this.

Admin,
Thank you.

[Humsafar]

It is mind boggling that even after so much baraat, the progressives are still entertaining the idea of joining the mainstream jamaat even if their demands are met, which will never happen. The biggest punch in the face for the kotharis is for the progressives to join the Sunni Jamaat. They will be invited with open arms and you will be able to be part of a big and powerful community again. You will have the backing of the Sunni Jamaat and with such a force behind you, the Syedna and his goons will no longer be able to torture you like they normally do. They won't be able to throw you out of mosques, nor confine you to the back like untouchables.

anajmi,
You got it backwards, reformists do not want to join the "mainstream", rather we want the "mainstream" to be like us - managing our own affairs and property, democratic jamat setup, transparency etc. That would be the first stage. The second stage would be to relegate the role of Dai and Dawat to religious and quasi-religious affairs. The Kothar and the extended "royal family" are like cancer, and must be eliminated sooner than later.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Well, if that is the case, then we are on the same page. Forget about the accounts. Start doing dawaah. Invite bohras to join you. Tell them why you are on the right path and they are on the wrong path.

[Humsafar]

anajmi,
We're doing that too, as evident on this forum. And all right-thinking Bohras know that they - the Kothar - are on the wrong path. But they are too socially entrenched in the system to do anything about it. You must know that from the experience of your own extended family.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Admin

With your (superb!) new policy in place now - surely this warrants a first warning?

Well, anyone who believes in Shia Islam, does not believe in Islam.

Then we have another post from him again - second warning perhaps?

If you say that you are not a sunni, then I am not the one saying that you are an unbeliever. You are saying it yourself.

As well as issuing warnings and bans, will you be deleting posts like this too? We need to attract DBs here and having garbage like this all over the place just keeps them away...

If however, you feel Anajmi doesn't deserve any warnings for the above... then please dude... let me make a few replies to his posts!
Come on bro, biting my tongue is killing me over here lol!

[phorendude]

As expected the drama of newspaper ads asking for talks and reconciliation have failed in Udaipur. Ali Qadar has left Udaipur in reportedly huff and puff declaring lanat and barat on Reformists Youth group.

With immediate effect functions where Bohras from both sides were invited have been canceled, and rumours are doing rounds of staunch Wagad lobby preparing agendas to impose absolute barat on Reformists and monitor it.

If someone has more info on this do share here.

[humble_servant_us]

But they are too socially entrenched in the system to do anything about it. You must know that from the experience of your own extended family.

Very True. Most of the bohras know all this is wrong but they cannot move out of this social system. And the Dai and his regime very well understand this and so time to time they come out with farmans which play with people's mind and keep them entrenched in the system, the latest and greatest being thaali system.

I have read in history that the women have played a great role in any revolution, if the women of Bohra society understand the wrongs of Kothar, this system will collapse in a day. But unfortunately our women folk (with all due respect to them) are far far away from religious freedom.

[Mkenya]

humble_servant_us
You have hit the nail on the head. Universally women have always been the pivot in the family structure. They provide warmth, love, security; take children to schools, doctors, madrassas; majlis, waaz, jamaans; cook, wash, dress, adorn; and so on. We have all heard of the adage of Jannat being under the soles of mothers. Her role is the welfare of her family. Mosques, temples, churches, gurdwaras, synagogues and so on are populated mainly by women. The priesthood in all religions play on womens' sentiments and usurp them. Fear of the unknown is used by the priesthood to instill false hopes in women. Hundreds of years old histories of Panjatan, Imams and Dais are orated to whip up emotions and effinity. Dais and their hangers-on are portrayed as the infallible and facilitators to the point where logic plays no part. Visit any dargah and one would see women (and men) prostratating, kissing, doing tasleem, hugging, minnat 'charave', etc. Women do all this in the belief that it would ward off present and future difficulties. Kothar has done a coup-de-tat by capitalising on womens' weakness. It has hynotised women to drag their menfolk to religious gatherings, cough up cash for ever-increasing wajebaat, sabil, najwa, etc. The guillotine of baraat or chiti bandh is ominously poised over any opposition. Men will never be able to revolt. Men will need women with them and that, I am afraid, is a pipe dream!

[think]

not so. depends on who rules the house? If you are the man of the house then you can step your foot down. In my case women folks wanted to send chidren to madrassa and go to all majlis etc and neglect school homework. I had to draw the line and today my children are very well educated and are doctors and engineers and still practise their religion in a moderate way , no knee kissing for every tom dick and harry mulla or amil or bhaisaheb as some of the other children i have seen do.They have been brainwashed into slavery by going to the madrassa for deeni education..to day to feed themselves they cannot even hold a job because they lack world education.what good did it do them to learn allahomma asinfarji and ghanoo jivo ghanoo jivo.

[ponga bhori]

Mine do not kiss ANY Knee. You should teach them too.

[fight_the_power]

knee kissing well i know what i'd like the maula to kiss i hope the aura of evil that he left behind in Udaipur has dissipated by now

[Humsafar]

No doubt, women play a key role in deciding which side the tide will turn. Seeking security and stability in life they invariably tend to be conservative and traditional, and stick to the tried and tested. But beware the wrath of wronged women. This is what happened in Udaipur, they saw the true face of Aqa Maula when they were beaten and molested in his presence in Galiyakot in 1972. That was the turning point, and ever since women have been the mainstay of the reform movement. Much has been written and documented on how the women of Udaipur have sustained the movement, if not for their commitment the movement would long folded. So, yes the wiley Kohtar is well aware that if they can control the women, they can control the whole community. By the same token, the reform movement will not succeed without the support of amtes. Influencing them should be an important part of our strategy.

[humble_servant_us]

I agree the role of women was very pivotal in the reform movement in udaipur. Kothar had learnt a strong lesson from the galiyakot episode and in future they will dare to repeat this. They have cleverly strategised their focus on enslaving the women of the community and to a large extent they are successful in this.

It is important that at individual level we have to work with our family and extended family women creating awareness in them so that they can be liberated from this despotic system. This is indeed a Big task for many of us.

[Qutbi-Hero]

not so. depends on who rules the house? If you are the man of the house then you can step your foot down. In my case women folks wanted to send chidren to madrassa and go to all majlis etc and neglect school homework. I had to draw the line and today my children are very well educated and are doctors and engineers and still practise their religion in a moderate way , no knee kissing for every tom dick and harry mulla or amil or bhaisaheb as some of the other children i have seen do.They have been brainwashed into slavery by going to the madrassa for deeni education..to day to feed themselves they cannot even hold a job because they lack world education.what good did it do them to learn allahomma asinfarji and ghanoo jivo ghanoo jivo.

We would all agree that the Kothar has turned our beautiful religion in to a business,,, where they manipulate us and our faith, in order to rob us of our money - the more money we have, the more they can steal from us, right bro?

Therefore, I simply do not see evidence of DBs being uneducated or unable to hold a job, indeed I see quite the opposite. In the UK, DBs are one of the most educated, business-minded and prosperous communities in the country. In fact I would say only the Ismaili and Jewish community is ahead of us today.
What country are you from bro? What Jamaat are you talking about?

[Qutbi-Hero]

I agree the role of women was very pivotal in the reform movement in udaipur. Kothar had learnt a strong lesson from the galiyakot episode and in future they will dare to repeat this. They have cleverly strategised their focus on enslaving the women of the community and to a large extent they are successful in this.

It is important that at individual level we have to work with our family and extended family women creating awareness in them so that they can be liberated from this despotic system. This is indeed a Big task for many of us.

Yes, women are the back-bone of any family and community - which is why the Kothar target them so successfully.

A large part (and in many cases the only part) of women's social life is the Jamaat. Most men would prefer their wives/sisters/daughters etc do not get too involved with things outside of our community (especially if living in the West) which means the Kothar has all the time they need to brainwash them... unfortunately, due to the conservative constraints of Islam, this will be one of the most difficult things to Reform from the outside, as it can only be addressed by changing the Kothar from the inside.

[think]

In my neck of the woods in the west, this is the situation of the young ones. Their mothers gave first preference to madrassa and second to school. They are now mediocre at that. Their only social life is attending every majlis there is and one knows that, to brainwash abdes these majlises are held every second day. Ofcourse free food is another attraction for them . They are smart and intelligent but that has now turned into cunningness. Logical argument is way beyond.

[Mkenya]

It is so refreshing to read posts which analyse topics as opposed to spar. History is replete with women who have shaped and altered history in all faiths and eras. We do not need to enumerate their achievements. However, we all agree that women are the movers and shakers in any society; be it the African housewife who chops wood, fetches water, cooks, etc. or the employed western woman who on her way home from work buys groceries. Women and their attachment to religion is complex. It transcends faith, race, cast, colour, etc. Let us discuss whether women are so because of their education or lack of; socio-economic level; menfolk is non-confrontational and, possibly, subservient; women are survivalists; and so on. Personally I have witnessed women from many parts of the world, in all walks of life and levels devoutly religious. I do not know what to make of them. There is no one answer. Let us please continue and explore!

[Maqbool]

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[Maqbool]

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[think]

This not the conduct of a religious person who believes in allah and is afraid of the day of judgement but a hitler type dictator. He is stating that if you do not obey my commands then your bodies will burn, your houses will burn, all your goods will burn. I ask; who is going to burn them? will it be your goondas? such scare tactics are used to instill fear on the weak so the kothar can rule. I pray for more reformist and progressive minded people who atleast have the guts to question the clergy and ask the why and not succumb to his dictatorship. More power to the courageous people of udaipur.

[SBM]

What I heard in this audio clip sounds like some one from Narendra Modi's family is talking.
During Riots same kind of language was used against Muslims (incidentally that included Dawoodi Bohras) by BJP and RSS
NO WONDER KOTHARI GOONS AND BJP GOONS AND BOTH THE CHIEFS HAVE SO MUCH IN COMMON AND THEY LIKE EACH OTHER

[alam]

Try listening to the clip someone posted a while ago on how Mufaddal Mansoos referring to udaipur bohra youth as "Apna bhaiyyo chey, aavi jaav, aavi jaav".
That was Before - the honeymoon phase.

And now This (clips posts by Bhai Maqbool). Fast forward and jump to the Hatred phase.

Mufaddal Saheb, don't you know, and don't you also preach, that doing this type of buddoa and expressing hatred of this sort hurts you, is a grave sin. After all "Tamara bhaiyyo chey, Ahney tamey aam laanat bolo cho?". Khuda taala ney tamney pun jawaab dewo parsey, no matter whoyou are, you are still accountable to Allah.

So much hatred, so much venom, is only an indication of the extent of your complete disregard for "your bhaiiyyos". Another example of your Hypocrisy after you failed in patronizing your bhaiyyos.

[Qutbi-Hero]

In my neck of the woods in the west, this is the situation of the young ones. Their mothers gave first preference to madrassa and second to school. They are now mediocre at that. Their only social life is attending every majlis there is and one knows that, to brainwash abdes these majlises are held every second day. Ofcourse free food is another attraction for them . They are smart and intelligent but that has now turned into cunningness. Logical argument is way beyond.

I'll ask again bro... what is your neck of the woods? What Jammat are you talking about? Are you a Reformist just hearing rumours, or are you a member who is seeing this first hand?

Madrassa is during the evenings and weekends so does not take any time away from kids regular school time-table. Also madrassa is only for small children and is usually finished by the time they are sitting important exams and going to university.

Most Western countries have rules and regulations regarding schooling - you need permission to take time off for long periods, otherwise the relevant authorities can, and do, enforce harsh punishments on the parents. If there is any reason why a childs education is suffering, they most certainly will investigate, and put a stop to it.

If what you're saying is true, then this could be a legitimate angle of attack against the Kothar - please give us all the details you know, so we can look at how action can be taken.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Personally I have witnessed women from many parts of the world

Have you now... well done playa lol!

Let us please continue and explore!

Absolutely! However why not start a whole new thread bro, to prevent derailing this one!

It's a great shame that we don't have any Sisters here - hopefully this will change in the years to come. Women are always the foundation of any revolution!

[Qutbi-Hero]

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I can't see this bro... can you put it on YouTube please?

[Mkenya]

DB-Londoner
Thank you for establishing a new 'low'.
Ouch! That hurt.

And how 'low' will you get?

[Deerseye]

This is a request to Mr DB Londoner, please refrain from lewd comments, it shows your bad culture, it would be good to say sorry to bro MKENYA who is very senior to you.thankyou.

[Maqbool]

In these both Audios right minded should give important to the following points:
1) That the barat is still part of taking revenge. (thou the Amil has said to the reporter that they do not do baraat)
2) In the Audio the person says that moula called them but no one came, And after sometime he says chari ne awa!
3) They judge persons from their colour of dress. The bahen has said that she is not here for food, there fis nothing wrong in this.
4) A religious person who is projecting him self as divine and many moazizas are performed by him, has used language is even not suitable to the rawdies on the street.

In my opinion the mansoos is not interested to bring youth in to the main fold, but he is interested in to keep the others in to his hand. Barat is used to keep the shaba away from youth so that they do not test their freedom.

I was told by one of shaba friend that keeping the aggressive folk aside of both the side, many bohras are leaving peaceful here. They attend all family and cultural programs with harmony, this is not digesting the kothar and time and again they puts this hurdles to keep them separate.

[alam]

Another backdrop to this udaipur thing that messages are floating around that 50-60% of the udaipur youth have given misaaq to Ali Qadr.
Anybody can share validity to this?

[Qutbi-Hero]

This is a request to Mr DB Londoner, please refrain from lewd comments, it shows your bad culture, it would be good to say sorry to bro MKENYA who is very senior to you.thankyou.

This is a request to Mr Deerseye, please refrain from making a molehill in to a mountain lol - no apology is necessary as no insult was intended.
In fact I would expect an apology from you guys - for being so uptight and miserable! (I'm kidding, don't go getting upset again lol!)