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The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Salaam,<br>Could anyone please explain why the Mazoon Saheb has now been totaly sidelined. Why dont we celebrate his birthday as we used to do before? Why is he not in the picture anymore? could anyone please explain what had really hapened to him in Africa a few years back.There a lot of us over here who really want to know the whole story.So could anyone help us?
A few years ago when was in Nairobi and Mombasa, Mazoon was informed of the injustices and oppression against people working, excommunication for non-Ridah wearing women and beard keeping etc. Late Yusuf Najmuddin's clone Badril Jamali was the Amil in Nairobi at the time and in bed with the Hibatullah family.<p>Mazoon tried to relax the laws and talked to the Reformists. This created excitement and happiness within the community and celebrations.<p>At the same time the Hebatullah (East African's Moula)contingent flew to Cairo and went to see the Dai. Hebatullah suggested that 'Mazoon was becoming Dai of EA" to tarnish his image. The Mazoon's visit was cut short.<p>The Hibatullah followers group came to prominence and declared all community memebers to re-take misak for being disloyal to Sayedna and talking to Mazoon; major re-shuffles were done and oppressive laws returned.<p>I don't think the Mazoon has ever returned to Nairobi since!! Perhaps some Africans can shed some more light on these facts.<p>
Dear Bohraji,<br>I am not exactly sure what you mean by "sidelined". Madhun Saheb hold the major majalis in Surat and Mumbai when Sayedna is at other places. His salgirah is still celebrated by many major jamats though less so in general...remember he is still the madhun (mazoon) saheb..not the Dai.
Dear brother Qiyam,<br>This is the exact point that I want the answers for.Earlier his birthday was celebrated at all jamats.This is not so now,among many things.Can any one from Africa please help.And can someone tell us who this Heptullah family is and how and why are they so influential?
"how and why are they so influential? "<br>Br bohraji, you buy influence with title and title with money, and you want more influence, pay more than the other.In one jamaat of 7 families, there are 2 sheikhs, 4 mollas and 1 poor momin.And please do not waste your precious webtime convincing me of such a jamaat not existing, cos its a FACT.
Dear Br. Bohraji and Br.Anwar<br>Forget it,<br>You will not get a convincing reply .......<br>Its difficult to look and talk about the darker side. <br>All you will get in reply ( if there is any.....which I doubt) will be illogical justifications.<br>Take care<br>Salaam
Dear Bohraji,<br>Actually, no his salgirah wasn't. In majority of the jamats his salgirah wasn't celebrated...though it is still noted on the calendars. One of the largest jamat in the bohra community, that of Mumbai, celebrated it last year, yet I don't remember another one, at least in the US that celebrated it. This is in noways degrading the mazoonsahib position in anyway.
Dear Abdulla bhai,<br>Whatever dark sides there may be.It should all come out in the open.Time and again we hear rumours about discord amongst the royal family.And to make matters worst it is then all hushed up.<br>Things like these create doubts amongst people like us who are in the mainstream and then we turn towards wahhabism or something similar.It is perhaps these doubts that have turned the three of the four sons of one of the great philantrophists of our time the late Shaikh Mohammed bhai Dhanerawala towards staunch wahhabis.These very same people were die hard beleivers of Sayedna just until a few years back.Unfortunately now they and their families have completely turned away from shiaism altogether.People of Dubai and Bahrain know the good deeds of the late Dhanerawala brothers and about how they would spend money on the causes of the community for the building of numerous masjids and rozas in India including the famous Qasr of Sayedna in Ahmedabad.<br>With the families of such pious men,turning away from the fold of Ismailism and embracing a fundamentalist cult,indeed is a point to ponder. Perhaps readers from Dubai will be able to enlighten us with more information.
Dear Bohraji,<br>I cannot comment on Mumineen's account. I personally have never heard of the account. I do know the Hebatuallah are a rich family in Kenya and Uganda. They are also the largest employer of bohras in east africa.<p>But regarding the occurance of Mazoonsaheb..I personally cannot verify nor deny it occured. It would seem odd that it did occur though...only because the Mazoonsaheb is a very revered man throughout the dawat today and his salgirah is still printed on calendars and celebrated in some locales and his words are very much recognized by the community today.<p>Regarding your last post..it is hushed up..because it is not our business. What you have described is called ghibat or backbiting...and is major sin. Would you want dissecention of any kind in your own family (rumors or otherwise) publicly scandalized. Why wouldn't you expect the same from Sayedna's family. If the shahzadas did wrong..so be it. They're human. If you do wrong..do you want it rumored around. I am not apologizing for them...it is not my place...but it is no better of me to talk about it.<p>Secondly, those that turned to wahabism should show you there actual understanding of Islam. People put on shows of faith and dress the look of faith. These obviously haven't accepted it in their hearts. Giving money in public is the least pious method one can do (it is usually for show and namesake), though it is a very noble act, Allah only know. It is far better to give privately and discreetly.
DearBrother Qiyam,<br>Believe me it is not for mere gossip that I mentioned what I had to.If any one else turns away from our fold than it does not matter much to the community as a whole.But when some prominent personalities do it. then there are doubts that occur in the minds of ordinary folks like us.As we see the same pious people who were showered with utmost blessings openly are now frowned upon.Why? What is wrong somewhere that this has to happen and let me tell you brother Qiyam.It really pains a fellow shia and mumin when even one mumin starts to disbeleive in the true position of Maula Ali,and what is worse is that these same people are luring innocent bohras into their fold because most of the Bohras are not told much about their religion and so are unable to counter attack the wrong intepretations provided by the wahhabi to lure people into their fold.Bohras today lack knowledge on deen so much as so to even answer their own childrens queries on Islam.<br>
Dear Brothers<br>Salaam <br>Well I already mentioned above.<br>Forget it,<br>You will not get a convincing reply .......<br>Its difficult to look and talk about the darker side. <br>All you will get in reply ( if there is any.....which I doubt) will be illogical justifications.<p>As you can see from the replies.<p>There is some really genuine problem but some how the people don't want to <br>discuss.<p>Take care<br>Salaam
Dear Bohraji,<br>Let me ask you...how pious are the wahabis. Most would they are very pious in what they believe. The problem is..what is believe is not correct. All the muslim (even some wahabis) agree to this.<p>So do say of a person who goes from Ismaili Imamate to Wahabism? How deep was his piety?<p>You know the story of Ayesha..the wife of the Prophet. How pious was she when after the Prophet died, waged a war against Maulana Ali? Put aside the doctrine of not spilling the blood a muslim...she waged a war against the Ummah...for what!? Where was her piety and how deep did it go?<p>You say it really pains you...do you listen to Maulana in every wa'az he give. How many duas do he make for us. How many time does he plead with us not to sin. To uphold our mithaq. To pray our salat. How much does he cry for us and how much does pain him?<p>If you read any thing from you know I have time and again said I am not a trained scholar. Everything I know is from waazs and reading our books. Asking and learning..this is what Rasullah told us to do.
Dear Qiyam bhai<br>You have missed the point of what I was referring to.To make it short,I am just wondering what is the Kothar doing to stop this sudden wave of wahhabism and fundamentalism.Are the innocent Bohra folk prepared to answer back any of their allegations.The answer is no! This is because the Amils dont teach us enough in the waaez's anymore.To the unlearned bohra sometimes it is enough for a former once staunch follower to lead them astray.If This worries me then what about the people higher up? Do they care about the people going astray? If so then what are they doing about it?<br>Remember the Pious Dai of Ahmedabad who would go door to door under the cover of darkness to lead people back to the right path. My dad tells me that during his days the Amil would go down to the mosque with Nazar Al Mukam for woe to the Amil who would make a mistake during a sermon. The listeners would shout back to correct him.This shows that the people were taught a lot of things 40-50 years back.<br>But see for yourself at the state we are in today.
Dear Brothers <br>Salaam <br>Well it seems clear that,<br>there is some really genuine problem but some how the people don't want to <br>discuss.<br>Br. Bohraji you are not alone there are many others also, who raise such questions but thanks to clergy the knowledge is confined (sorry to say but very much like <br>as in older times Hindu Prohits and Pandits use to do), hence the end result is what you have mentioned in your last reply.<br>Another personal observation is that this is not alone for the common Bohras in some cases I found the Bona fide students of Jamia were simply speechless or giving <br>illogical explanations while conversing to non-Bohra Islamic scholars.<p>I don't know but can any one who is knowledgeable explains this phenomena.<p>An example to quote is I found common Bohra quite ignorant about the philosophy of the great sacrifice made by Maula Imam Husain (AS) and they were <br>speechless when argued by Shiah and Sunni common scholars (The importance of Matam and Aza Dari is not in question).<p>(Note:- Point here is about common Bohras, exceptional and knowledgeable are not because they are the exceptional cases and can be found easily though less in <br>number but they are.)<p>I still doubt that there will be some convincing reply not illogical justifications,<br>But still, hope is there that some one will reply.<p>Take care<br>Salaam
Dear Bohraji,<br>"To make it short,I am just wondering what is the Kothar doing to stop this sudden wave of wahhabism and fundamentalism. Are the innocent Bohra folk prepared to answer back any of their allegations.The answer is no!""<p>---This is just not a phenominon with Bohras..but in early madhab of Islam. If your looking for a rebuttal to them look at their own sunni madhab brethren..who say the are fanatics. <p>"This is because the Amils dont teach us enough in the waaez's anymore.To the unlearned bohra sometimes it is enough for a former once staunch follower to lead them astray."<p>---Unfortunately, is this the fault of the clergy or the unlearned bohra for following another follower. We are to take examples from Sayedna (tus) not "a stauch follower". A bohra learned sheikh once told me ask question...from anyone you think knows proper (sure) knowledge. Do not just follow the mullah, shiekhs, or amils..they are human and will fault in their practice. But learn the knowledge from them.<p>Its like the old adage..practice what you preach...many don't do this..even though what they preach is correct.<p>"If This worries me then what about the people higher up? Do they care about the people going astray? If so then what are they doing about it?"<p>---The clergy preach and preach. Islam is not complex..it is not strange. We just confuse our ownselves by only following others. <p>"Remember the Pious Dai of Ahmedabad who would go door to door under the cover of darkness to lead people back to the right path."<p>---Why do you think Sayedna (tus) at the zayif age of 90, with poor health, constantly goes to the where the community is to preach and preach. Is it still the fault of Sayedna that mumin don't listen or enact the ilm.<p>"My dad tells me that during his days the Amil would go down to the mosque with Nazar Al Mukam for woe to the Amil who would make a mistake during a sermon. The listeners would shout back to correct him.This shows that the people were taught a lot of things 40-50 years back."<p>---I can attest to this. My parents are not Islamic learned by anyways..yet they know just as much (if not more) than I. Why? Because they took what they were taught and enacted it..and remembered it. They might not know from what source but they knew the hadith. We are taught the same today...but we don't enact or remember. This is the state we are in. We mimick from our friend and society. We follow blindly other people (the culture norm) and not what we are taught and preach at.
Brother WYP,<br>I and my family were able to get two days (one hour sessions) of learning.<br>He never responded to our calls for further knowledge.<br>My 15 year old son questioned me with "what is this man saying, comparing Moulana with Allah on earth and he the link in the city."<br>I do not agree that knowledge could be got from any of this amil for sure.<br>Salaam
my experience...<br>about 3 yrs ago i and a few others (about 6) asked for BASIC teaching since we were not able to attend madrasa or anything like that when we were younger. so we started having 1 hour sessions once every week with the head moallim. we started with one ayat, expounding on that ayat, a hadith related to that ayat, and maulana ali's kalaam related to that topic. the whole thing is very nicely organized in books that they use to teach children in madrasa. its been almost 3 years and since then we have moved on to kitaabs by awliya and hudat kiram. for me and my family it has been a very educating and interesting experience.<p>if you go with an open mind and no prejudice, there is a lot to learn. depends on who and how you ask.<br>
Qurban,<br>the answer is with ourselves. We must enact and remember what we are taught. We (I include myself of course) listen, but don't let the message sink in. Majority of the question...at least if you use this board as an example..are basic questions. I am amazed at what people don't know...and surely have been taught..but possibly just forgotten. Many haven't gone to madrassa...so they may have never learned it. Is this the fault of the unlearned bohra or of the clergy for not seeking the answer or knowledge.<p>What is new in Islam...do you need more hadiths from our Prophet and Imams..that tell you the same things.<p>Is a newer book needed to express what we already know. Most bohras don't want to deal with the higher understandings of Allah to begin with...because they are to consumed in figuring out why we do this...why we do that. Whether they do it or not.<p>I strongly believe one should know why and what they doing/saying (such as in salat, etc) but they should first be performing it and not just learning things for reference and conversation.
Khan, I also read this article, that mazoon has a sexual relation with Nafisa Ali, and by virtue of that she became pregnant, but like you, I also don`t have any proof to prove this story, but to some extent this story seems to be true, because the character of mazoon ? well we all know.....