Olive Branch

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#31

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:29 pm

Biradar- I commend you for your statements to several of the people who need help ridding themselves of the Kothar administration(s).

However, one thing nags at me. You stated above that people can't just wait for Allah to come and help them.

If Allah is merciful and loving, then why the hell would't he help them get out of their dilemma? Does Allah enjoy watching thousands of people worship the dai? If he really was merciful, forgiving, etc etc, he would help people find the truth. It doesn't seem like he does much, seeing as there are myriads of different Islamic sects. Beyond Islam, there are thousands of other 'false' religions according to Islam, right? If Allah cared about his creations, then why is he damning most of them to hell?

This makes absolutely no sense. I don't care what Quranic argument you present, you can't go on lauding God as being "all merciful" and "forgiving" and "Great" when he condemns most people to hell.

Biradar is right. Allah isn't helping any of you.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:41 pm

If Allah is merciful and loving, then why the hell would't he help them get out of their dilemma?
You mean force them out of it? He has helped me get out of this mess and a lot of others. The exact same help is available to all who seek it. Allah is merciful and loving but only for those who look for it. Those who are seeking the mercy and love of the Dai, they have that and those who see the mercy and love of other shia / sunni / sufi saints, they probably have that as well, after a little bit of cash that is. :wink:

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Olive Branch

#33

Unread post by think » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:32 pm

allah says in quran that I am your provider, but that does not mean he is going to put food in your mouth. you will have to make an effort, plant the seed, sow the harvest and cook your own food. and all along the way ask allah to be on your side.He helps oin mysterious ways.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#34

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:00 pm

Yes, but many others on this forum have posted an ayat from the Quran stating that Allah says that the Quran is lucid (clear, unambiguous). So if Allah says he is your provider, then why isn't he providing for these Bohras? Unless, of course, he is as cruel as the Quran and the Testaments describe him as being, in which case, this is a pretty moderate form of punishment. I mean, at least he isn't drowning 99.9% of living things or committing some sort of genocide. But still, if people who are questioning their Bohra faith want so much to escape from their prison, why wouldn't Allah help them?

And if he helps in "mysterious" ways, then how has he done so for the Bohras? You may say that we aren't supposed to understand God, but I don't buy that. If he loves his creations ands wanted all of us to worship him, why would he guide us through mysterious, ambiguous means instead of conveying, explicitly, what he wants us to do. Why doesn't he use his omnipotence to guide all people to the right faith?

M Taha
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:56 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#35

Unread post by M Taha » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:05 pm

Nietzsche wrote:Yes, but many others on this forum have posted an ayat from the Quran stating that Allah says that the Quran is lucid (clear, unambiguous). So if Allah says he is your provider, then why isn't he providing for these Bohras? Unless, of course, he is as cruel as the Quran and the Testaments describe him as being, in which case, this is a pretty moderate form of punishment. I mean, at least he isn't drowning 99.9% of living things or committing some sort of genocide. But still, if people who are questioning their Bohra faith want so much to escape from their prison, why wouldn't Allah help them?

And if he helps in "mysterious" ways, then how has he done so for the Bohras? You may say that we aren't supposed to understand God, but I don't buy that. If he loves his creations ands wanted all of us to worship him, why would he guide us through mysterious, ambiguous means instead of conveying, explicitly, what he wants us to do. Why doesn't he use his omnipotence to guide all people to the right faith?
Brother I invite you to talk with me, and clear your doubts.

Skype : mission-islam-dawah

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Olive Branch

#36

Unread post by think » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:38 pm

na chez what your concerns are has a very valid explanation in the quran. go one on one with M. Taha. may be the light will shine.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#37

Unread post by scared » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:24 am

So if Allah says he is your provider, then why isn't he providing for these Bohras?
Actually, Allah is providing for the bohras. You don't seriously think the Dai is providing for them do you?
Unless, of course, he is as cruel as the Quran and the Testaments describe him as being, in which case, this is a pretty moderate form of punishment.
Well, earlier you said the Quran says Allah is merciful. Where does it say that he is cruel? "Cruel" is basically an adjective used by those who do not want Allah's justice. Allah is not cruel. He is just. On earth for eg. if you kill one person, the penalty is death. If you kill a 100, the penalty is still death. Is that justice? Of course not. But if Allah promises to punish the murderer 100 times over, then He becomes cruel!! No. Allah is merciful and just.
But still, if people who are questioning their Bohra faith want so much to escape from their prison, why wouldn't Allah help them?
Not sure what Allah is supposed to do with the bohras. Do you have any suggestions? Is it ok if he sends a book which says that worshipping the Dai is haram? Would that help the bohras? How about a messenger who explains the book to them?
why would he guide us through mysterious, ambiguous means instead of conveying, explicitly, what he wants us to do.
Actually the Quran is pretty explicit. There is a reason why the bohras are prevented from reading it with understanding.

But I suppose you want Allah to force the bohras to read the quran with understanding right?

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#38

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:34 am

M Taha- Thanks for the offer, it's well appreciated, but my mind on this matter was made up a long time ago. If my stance concerning religion ends up being wrong, ask God if you can laugh at me before I'm put down-- I'll deeply regret not taking you up on the offer.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#39

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:39 am

Not sure what he's supposed to do? He's God! Someone who could put something as grand as the universe together can surely handle a gang of lowly brigands with his pinky! Instead of letting them accumulate wealth and live like kings, he could destroy them, run them into the ground. If he was omnipotent as describes in religious texts, he could burn down Saifee Mahal and Darus Sakina and have this thing over with in a few hours! Better yet, he could tell his Imam to step up and fix this mess. But he, the omnipotent, decides to do absolutely nothing. That's not the God we've heard of in the Quran, is it? One who went through the trouble of making an immensely large and complicated universe can't do his creations a favor and free them from their chains!? Not a God I would like to worship.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#40

Unread post by scared » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:43 am

ask God if you can laugh at me before I'm put down
Funny you say that. Here is an interesting passage of the Quran precisely for this situation. I hope you are not at the receiving end though.

83:29 BEHOLD, those who have abandoned themselves to sin are wont to laugh at such as have attained to faith
83:30 and whenever they pass by them, they wink at one another [derisively];
83:31 and whenever they return to people of their own kind, they return full of jests
83:32 and whenever they see those [who believe,] they say, "Behold, these [people] have indeed gone astray!"
83:33 And, withal, they have no call to watch over [the beliefs of] others. . .
83:34 But on the Day [of Judgment], they who had attained to faith will [be able to] laugh at the [erstwhile] deniers of the truth:

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#41

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:45 am

Touche, God. Touche.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#42

Unread post by scared » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:47 am

Not sure what he's supposed to do? He's God! Someone who could put something as grand as the universe together can surely handle a gang of lowly brigands with his pinky! Instead of letting them accumulate wealth and live like kings, he could destroy them, run them into the ground. If he was omnipotent as describes in religious texts, he could burn down Saifee Mahal and Darus Sakina and have this thing over with in a few hours! Better yet, he could tell his Imam to step up and fix this mess. But he, the omnipotent, decides to do absolutely nothing. That's not the God we've heard of in the Quran, is it? One who went through the trouble of making an immensely large and complicated universe can't do his creations a favor and free them from their chains!? Not a God I would like to worship.
Actually, I am not sure what God is supposed to do. I am sure God is sure about what he is going to do, or not going to do.

And you will have to wait till the day of judgment for the final justice. See, these things have happened before. Pharoah was destroyed, people of Aad and Thamud were destroyed, etc, etc. These things are there in the Quran. But, we haven't learnt anything have we? If he destroyed Saifee Mahal today, a few decades later, we will have the same story repeating itself. So, just wait till the day of judgment. Till then, you have the instructions. If you choose to follow them, you are good. If not, then you will be punished.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#43

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:51 am

Who are the those who have "attained faith" anyway? The Sunnis? The Shias? The Wahabis? The Muffaddalis? The Qutbis? The Alavis? The Agha Khanis? It seems like, when all is said and done, it will be a few thousand (whoever they may be) laughing at the billions on Judgement day, because there are just so many sects of Islam, and they probably use this passage to warn people not to go over to another branch of Islam, and vice versa. God may have given you the book and the messenger, but after that, it seems like he has abandoned you.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#44

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:53 am

How do you know that the Quran is more valid than the Bible or the Tohra? not to mention the myriad of ancient beliefs people have held over the few thousand year old existence of mankind. Are all of them going to be laughed at as well? It funny that there are seven heavens. Heaven will be the size or a broom closet, and hell will be as large as the universe.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#45

Unread post by scared » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:56 am

Who are the those who have "attained faith" anyway? The Sunnis? The Shias? The Wahabis? The Muffaddalis? The Qutbis? The Alavis? The Agha Khanis?.....because there are just so many sects of Islam
You have to consider the possibility that since there is a little bit common as far as religion is concerned amongst these sects, even though they may be at each others throats, maybe they all have attained faith. You have to worry about yourself. What have you got to show for yourself? If you belong to none of these sects, even though there are so many to choose from, then who is it that has been truly abandoned?

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#46

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:57 am

I'll be honest with you, I have absolutely no problem with your beliefs. None at all. And if you're right, you'll be rewarded. If you're wrong, there won't be much to lose either. So if your beliefs make you happy, then by all means, hold them. But when your faith starts to be expressed in ways like the Taliban and the Dawoodi Bohra sect, it should be God's duty as a creator to hand out a reality check. That isn't happening.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#47

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:58 am

Well, God gave me a brain, and I used it. That's what I'll tell him.

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Olive Branch

#48

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:01 am

It would be nice to see God ignore religion when he makes his good boy/bad boy picks on Judgement day. Actually put decent people in heaven. But I guess all the decent christians and jews get the same treatment as iblis and abu lahab. Not very just at all, and I think you can agree with that.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#49

Unread post by scared » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:01 am

Nietzsche wrote:I'll be honest with you, I have absolutely no problem with your beliefs. None at all. And if you're right, you'll be rewarded. If you're wrong, there won't be much to lose either. So if your beliefs make you happy, then by all means, hold them. But when your faith starts to be expressed in ways like the Taliban and the Dawoodi Bohra sect, it should be God's duty as a creator to hand out a reality check. That isn't happening.
I beg to differ. Consider the might of America going after the Taliban. Bush promised that he will hunt them down and kill them wherever they are. :wink:

And the bohra sect is on the verge of something not seen in a 100 years. More and more people are realizing the truth. And Saifee Mahal didn't even have to be destroyed.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#50

Unread post by scared » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:07 am

It would be nice to see God ignore religion when he makes his good boy/bad boy picks on Judgement day. Actually put decent people in heaven. But I guess all the decent christians and jews get the same treatment as iblis and abu lahab. Not very just at all, and I think you can agree with that.
My dear brother, let us say all good Christians and jews and muslims go to heaven. When are you going to start thinking about yourself? You belong nowhere. I am asking you to think about yourself, rather than the others. You have decided that there is no God, then why worry about how he is supposed to act. God, if he exists, is not going to do your bidding is he? After all, you haven't been doing his bidding have you?

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Olive Branch

#51

Unread post by SBM » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:08 am

Hello everyone
This thread was to discuss SMS and SKQ camps exchanges and why this has turned in to God and believer
Admin
Kindly remove all these discussion NOT RELATED to original topic and move it to Islam today

hsnhussain
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 7:36 am

Re: Olive Branch

#52

Unread post by hsnhussain » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:11 am

why not keep it simple.
It does'nt matter what religion or which sect you are and which way you prayed or for like of us did'nt pray at all.

At the end of all that counts is what good or bad you have done to the society.