Hello & Bye Bye

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Hello & Bye Bye

#1

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:38 pm

You guys should have a separate introduction section as its there in other forums not necessarily religious. Becomes easier for new members to introduce themselves rater than use the main discussion forums.
Anyways,
In case you wondered why hello & bye bye, hello to all of you as I join in & make my first post & bye bye as I want to break free from all shackles of religion which I find meaningless. While I still call myself agnostic but more like atheist. What held me for so long was the "association" or a "string" named Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin. While my belief in religion started to wane long back, I was kinda spiritually held in the fold so to speak. Now that's gone.

On and off I've visited this forum as guests including the time when I was like any other " law abiding" Bohra. Slowly with time I started developing questions including while hearing Wa 'az. Questions like is that correct, is that so to sometimes WTF. But then immediately it was like no how can you develop such thoughts, this is the Dai being bought up in a typical blind following Bohra family. But then the thoughts got stronger and coupled with wider world views I drifted not only away from our own beliefs but even the larger religion.

So right now I am what I call myself a societal Bohra. I cannot change what I was born into,my family, culture,way of life, business etc. So while I don't believe in anything, I do go to mosque for "big" events. In fact I started going for Sabaqs to gain more knowledge. So right now I am on Diam ul Islam. I wanted to know more on Islamic jurisprudence from Shia-Fatemid point of view. Its a shame that our books are not openly avail as and you need Raza & someone will teach you which obviously comes with his bias & tasawaur which again may be not right or Islamic anyway.

Talking about the current events, its a shame that people don't want to listen and keep their minds open. Don't want to even listen to the other side and in fact prevented from doing so by farmans that the average Bohri dutifully and blindly obeys. Irks me no end. How will one know if he is on "Haq" or not if he does not even open his eyes and ears to make an informed opinion/choice? But years of brainwashing has taken away the capacity of Bohris to think when it comes to religion while get don't mind asking for quote from and getting information from 10 sources when it comes to their business.

Already a lot has been said on this forum on the issue of Nass so there is no point repeating the same. KQ has asked for a Muhabila, I think he can get one only if he goes legal & forces MS to answer the challenge. Otherwise he can forget getting any numbers behind him.

From some of what I have read on this forum & kind of thinking it betrays, many have called MS Talibani kind while I've seen many over here display the same kind of mentality when they talk about. Ramdev, Hindus & derogatory references to them as Kafirs.

I had attended the funeral of SMB (yes as a mark of respect I did attend) and I thought it was a great thing to be wrapped in the Tri Color. But I saw that someone here refered to that as a Hindu thing. I mean what has religion got to do with your nation? Being a fierce nationalist I approve of the flag wrapping & condemn the statement calling it Hindu Like. But then many here will be Paki & other nationalities and display the Wahabi mindset which I abhor.

Coming to my own beliefs, I told my parents some time back of what I feel about religion . This was while SMB was still living. It was obviously met with horror & cries by my parents my mom in particular. My wife is ok with whatever my beliefs while she remains a steadfast follower. After SMB passed away it has been a little rough though as I talked about logic about Nass and my parents trying to get me "back to the fold". But I've made my choice and found peace with my beliefs. So what this has led to is me finding ways to get around and live by. Attend societal events as I call them. People who have a problem going for Misaq, well its easy, no one is putting a ear near your mouth to hear Na'am. So don't say it and then avoid the shafaqat. Your ITS is scanned at the entrance in the beginning. For those doing business and linked to market, it will be economic suicide so it makes sense to keep shut up and continue to adhere to your beliefs, especially if one is in a partnership concern & don't want years of efforts to build a business to a waste. So basically a smart choice & a bit of compromise in the instance of say wajebat. I guess its easier for me as I am not too concerned about either side & more about my own business. For those who need a faith to follow it probably is a tough call. People name it hypocrisy & cowardice but then its only a smart thing to do. And anyways Taqiyat has been part of our belief. One can say I am maintaining Taqiyat :)

I think this has been a pretty long intro along with sharing of thoughts running in my mind. I think more of this will be lost in relevant threads.

Thanks to those who read this post in its entirety.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#2

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:16 pm

Sad to see you go, man. The community needs thoughtful people like you. Go well.

Ozdundee
Posts: 878
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#3

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:36 pm

AI what you are going through is common in many many peoples mind...

Coincidently I had this discussion with a local Sunni masjid executive, while he shared his disgust how Bohra issues are soiling Islamic image in India and that what is happening in the fight for position, is not at all what they would ever face...but that's for another topic.

What he stated is that your kind of dilemma is not your fault but consequence of bad governance of our leadership that pushes people to the edge...and this is sad .

I am too in your situation, although trying not to be agnostic . The difference is I am too a Bohra and by Allah I will stay here, (abdes here me loud) and make sure I defend my environment so it is comfortable and liveable. I will not be pushed around, I will not let a bully push around some else who is less stronger than I, I will turn a blind eye to trivial issues that does not significantly bother me or my family.

Where I clash with the establishment is if they impose taxes that are beyond reasonable expense funding, insist I do a ritual that I disagree with fundamentally like sajda, something criminal like FGM , or abuse of social privilege like trampling on my rights that my country guarantees . If only they suggested and not commanded life would be quieter. :lol:

Some will argue using example of traffic laws..the difference is I have trust that those laws were made democratically and enough intelligent people updated them over time , no vested interest helped in drafting reasonable laws to protect both drivers and pedestrians . And if I don't like them I know how to go about it in a civilised way try to change them.

All in All people like you is the new future and the challenge is how we find ways and leaders who can help us live side by side peacefully.

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#4

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:10 pm

We'll my issue is complex. Its not just about our governance I feel. Like I said, I'm done with religion. I care more about trying to be a good human being peacefully co-existing with all others without having a supremacist attitude or behavior where you think you are the only ones and rest are lesser mortals.

Makes it easier for me in the current situation. I've kept it simple on how to go about things. I get to keep my roots, way of living, culture, friends, family, and more importantly my business which is the key for me and all that matters. May be some compromise here and there which may include monetary ones but I do what I want I do and follow or not follow what I want.

awaken
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:42 pm

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#5

Unread post by awaken » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:29 pm

It is very hard for most of the Bohras to abandon the community and years of goodwill among like-minded Jamaat friends and family.
However one can:
-- be passive in Jamaat affairs which promotes the Aamils /kothars philosophy and ignores the concern of jammat members
-- attend only the real religious events (Ramadan/Moharram) and avoid a propaganda waezes
-- Pay Fair share of Vajebat... If unacceptable to Aamil WALK_OUT or Delay your Payments.. Imagine 30-50% delays their vajebaat... The Kothar will get the message..
-- donot do unnecessary Darees. Tabudat is invented to keep Salam money machine running.
-- No need to give 4-times Misaq per year.... againg money making business
-- skip doing Salams to Aamil on every vaseq raat... He is getting Salams/Najva from Jumaat every day in Ramzan anyway.. That is our Sabil Money.
-- for God-shake stop kissing Aamil's Legs. you donot have to rollover ..

Mazakyo
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#6

Unread post by Mazakyo » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:33 pm

I think this has been a pretty long intro along with sharing of thoughts running in my mind. I think more of this will be lost in relevant threads.

Thanks to those who read this post in its entirety.

AgnosticIndian Khuda Hafiz. Apna khayal rakhyo. Ammi, Abu, aur Bhabi ko salam dejeeyo.

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#7

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:14 pm

I don't so any unnecessary expense. I don't go to mosque in the first place unless its absolutely necessary. Mojarra is something I attend. Rest of the year there is some urs or some relay or recording being shown which I don't attend. I don't do Salam every week after sabaq that I attend. Even on Imam's salgirah I didn't take any Silat or Najwah which they say is "Waajib" and hat too Faakhir! I counted the following occasions which they make wajib
Lailatul Qadr
Eid ul Fitr
Eid ul Adha
Eid e Gadeer
Aashura
Milad of Imam
Milad of Dai
Milad of Mansoos

And any other occasion that live relay was made, it became "Waajib" to do Najwa us Shukr. Even if one catches a bare minimum of 100 rupees each, its 300. So you your wife pay 600. 8 occasions that I counte means. 4800 rupees.

So basically I avoid all of these. They try to induce fear and guilt. This is the mechanism that works wonderfully for them. When I say fear its not about bodily harm but the fear of. God, Jahannam etc. Once you get over fear, the world is for you

M Taha
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:56 pm

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#8

Unread post by M Taha » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:57 pm

AgnosticIndian wrote:I don't so any unnecessary expense. I don't go to mosque in the first place unless its absolutely necessary. Mojarra is something I attend. Rest of the year there is some urs or some relay or recording being shown which I don't attend. I don't do Salam every week after sabaq that I attend. Even on Imam's salgirah I didn't take any Silat or Najwah which they say is "Waajib" and hat too Faakhir! I counted the following occasions which they make wajib
Lailatul Qadr
Eid ul Fitr
Eid ul Adha
Eid e Gadeer
Aashura
Milad of Imam
Milad of Dai
Milad of Mansoos

And any other occasion that live relay was made, it became "Waajib" to do Najwa us Shukr. Even if one catches a bare minimum of 100 rupees each, its 300. So you your wife pay 600. 8 occasions that I counte means. 4800 rupees.

So basically I avoid all of these. They try to induce fear and guilt. This is the mechanism that works wonderfully for them. When I say fear its not about bodily harm but the fear of. God, Jahannam etc. Once you get over fear, the world is for you
I truely understand your view, and I ask you not feel guilty even if you dont visit your markaz once in a year, your belief in GOD and your personal kindness to his creation matters more to ALLAH and not how many times you have visited your markaz.

hsnhussain
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 7:36 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#9

Unread post by hsnhussain » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:59 am

@AI, Welcome to the forum.
If i had to write an intro i could very much copy paste from your OP.
You have easily witten my thoughts which i find difficult to express in words.
I have adopted the same strategy that you have mentioned.
Except Ramazan and Ashura i rarely enter the masjid and that too due to family pressure.
At the begining i had heated arguments with my family, specially my brother, but now they have somewhat accepted my "ignorance" as they call it.
I don't even remember when was the last time i paid for Najwas or salaams or any of the schemes.
Infact i used to feel guilty for being a coward and paying it as and when requested before.
I believe that other than sabeel and a fair amount of vajebat (that too my father pays on my behalf) all other money collected goes in the pockets of the amil and his superiors.

TheLiberatedOne
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:57 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#10

Unread post by TheLiberatedOne » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:45 am

Ditto AI & HSNHussain.... same thoughts, thanks for putting it up in words!

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#11

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:43 am

Well atheism is fast catching up. Its the fastest growing belief in the world and Muslim work is not behind.

The Death of God in Iraq: 32% of Iraqis not Sure God Exists, 11% think Not http://t.co/kj1xw4iuO4

wiseman786
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:38 pm

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#12

Unread post by wiseman786 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:31 pm

I totally agree with the views of AgnosticIndian. The bohra community here threaten you by saying that they won't bury you in their graveyard if you go against them but to be honest.... I am past caring. This bohra religion is all I have known in my life - my family, lifestyle, thinking etc. it is all linked to this fake religion but I have had enough with it and I am way beyond return now - I honestly don't think I would be able to go to another wise/salgirah/aurush and try to put up the act that I believe in all the things they tell us. I have wasted way too much time sitting in on a wise where I am there thinking about what I could be doing at home. It is not that I have never been interested in religion, my views have been changed by growing up and understanding how fake this all is. I have also been educated in a non bohra mosque and learned the Quran however I was told to leave as it was interfering with the parts of religion I had to learn about the bohra community (Deen). Since then, Dawoodi bohra is all I have known when it comes to religion and maybe if I had continued to learn at a non-bohra mosque then I might even be believing in God today. Even when it comes to bigger decisions such as marriage, I think (by default) that I have to find someone that is bohra but I really want to get away from all of this and be able to make my own decisions so I too, like AgnosticIndian would be saying Bye-bye but here, atleast I can talk to people who think alike and see some sense - and for that, I am truly grateful as it like the blind leading the blind at the Masjid.

Gulaame Islaam
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#13

Unread post by Gulaame Islaam » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:41 pm

All these thoughts and pursuits make me sad but they are understandable. in the end one is resigned to say "samju to samjo, na samju to na samjo".
However I cannot keep quiet when so much injustice and exploitation is going on.

hsnhussain
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 7:36 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#14

Unread post by hsnhussain » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:18 pm

Before the other members object and the admin kicks us out of this site I would like to warn AI and other atheists out here that this is a Dawoodi Bohra site and we should respect and keep the discussions limited to the community. Otherwise people may think that we are trying to propagate atheism on this forum.

wiseman786
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:38 pm

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#15

Unread post by wiseman786 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:06 pm

hsnhussain wrote:Before the other members object and the admin kicks us out of this site I would like to warn AI and other atheists out here that this is a Dawoodi Bohra site and we should respect and keep the discussions limited to the community. Otherwise people may think that we are trying to propagate atheism on this forum.
In reply to the above comment (don't worry hsnhussain, I know you are not trying to accuse me of promoting Atheism) I would like to make it clear that I am in no way trying to promote Atheism. People are entitled to believe what ever they want to believe and I will not stop them doing that, I just feel that not allowing people to express their views freely defeats the whole purpose of having a discussion. We are not here to fight and argue about this issue, I made it clear in my post that I can rely on the members of this forum to think alike and I can see that many people already do that. I do however understand and agree with hsnhussain that all discussion should remain focused on dawoodi bohra however I personally feel that it is necessary to allow people to express their opinions fairly, regardless of their current beliefs. The part that they are (or once were) Dawoodi Bohra, should really be enough to allow them to participate in discussions. Please don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say this in an argumentative or defensive way (and sorry if it does sound like that)

as2153
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#16

Unread post by as2153 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:08 pm

hsnhussain: I respectfully disagree with you. Agnostic bohras and atheist bohras are a major growing contingent of the community that remain a part of the community because of family and cultural reasons. My superficial impression is that the greatest challenge the orthodox community faces going forward is not the qutbi bohras, other schisms or reform requests from progressive dawoodi bohras but the risk of loss of faith altogether from many of its members. I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed so that those who have these occasional thoughts (including myself) have a forum to hear the arguments both for and against this position.

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#17

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:51 am

The thing is, you can't run away from your roots. I mean becoming an agnostic or atheist doesn't mean you will eat pizzas and burgers or pork or start drinking etc. DCP,Kari Chawal etc will remain your food.

Like I said earlier, I'm a societal Bohra getting along with everything including probably having to make compromises but then that's OK. I don't have any agenda to push. You can wake up someone sleeping not those who pretend to sleep. Then there are some who are sleeping with eyes wide open. Its a funny situation.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#18

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:16 am

Actions should define the person you are and not what you repeat all the time, without any considerations. I do the best I can by being kind and compassionate, to all in life and nature. Being simple and earning honestly is the rule to be happy and stress free. Live and let live.

AgnosticTheist
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:36 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#19

Unread post by AgnosticTheist » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:19 am

I just love this quote I read somewhere.
With or without religion, good people will always do good things and bad people will always do bad things. However, for good people to do bad things - that takes religion.

hsnhussain
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 7:36 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#20

Unread post by hsnhussain » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:27 am

This quote is somewhat incomplete.
I prefer,

Without religion, good people will mostly do good things and bad people will mostly do bad things. However, for good people to do bad things and bad people to do good things - that takes religion.

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#21

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:35 am

seeker110 wrote:Actions should define the person you are and not what you repeat all the time, without any considerations. I do the best I can by being kind and compassionate, to all in life and nature. Being simple and earning honestly is the rule to be happy and stress free. Live and let live.
Exactly. I think being a good human, good patriotic citizen takes care of that. On this forum I see everyone including reformist have a bias against others including Hindus with a supremacist attitude. Thy don't want to eat what they make etc.

In India, imagine if Hindus were to boycott Muslims? Our businesses depend on them. We are happy to get their money from business but not eat what get cook. Most Aamils etc to to hotels, resorts and use the tactic of getting it served from the hand of the chamcha who accompanies so that makes it alrite to eat. Bloody hypocrites.

I am for universal human rights without prejudices.

dawak
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 7:25 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#22

Unread post by dawak » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:49 am

AgnosticTheist wrote:I just love this quote I read somewhere.
With or without religion, good people will always do good things and bad people will always do bad things. However, for good people to do bad things - that takes religion.

the quote is by professor steven weinberg (texas, austin), a physics nobel laureate (particle physics), and one the few remaining great physicists from the earlier part of this century...

TheLiberatedOne
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:57 am

Re: Hello & Bye Bye

#23

Unread post by TheLiberatedOne » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:26 am

I think we all believe in one thing - kindness and respect for other humans is all that we need to do. We can continue being a Muslim but stop being a Dawoodi Bohra.