Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#151

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:02 am

Br. AC wrote:
Admin: I would strongly suggest to edit Mubarak's posts.
Br.Mubarak should be allowed to express is opinion and his ignorance as per as what is Islam.

Br. Mubarak;

AS

Your 'Khachhar' story is fascinating. You do not give any reference to this lie and unless you come up with one you are a liar.

As far as Islam is concerned nowhere in 5 pillars of Islam or 7 Basic belief (Akida) of Islam, belief in succession is mentioned.

You can go on saying 'Lanat' for rest of your life.Please read read and understand the following Hadith from Prophet SAW. (BTW traditionally Prophet Muhammad is addressed as S.A.W., Other Prophets as A.S. and Sahabas are addressed as R.A.)

CURSING

Abu Darda narrated that Prophet SAW said:

when a person curses someone, the curse ascends to Heaven, where all gates are closed against it. Then it descends to earth and turns left and right. After finding no exit, it finds the one who has been cursed and attaches itself to him if he deserves it; but if he doesn't, it returns to one who uttered it
Recorded by Abu Dawood

History of Islam is well recorded. Majorities has one version and in general are concerned with 5 pillars and 7 basic beliefs. If you want to dwell of succession issue then you must ask yourself where are rightful successors?

Wasalaam
.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#152

Unread post by porus » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:51 am

A lesson from Quran that I have understood is this. That Muslims should let Allah do what he does and and that Muslims should do what Allah has commanded them to do.

In common usage amongst some Muslims, the word "laanat" is used as a form of abuse, a practice condemned by Allah in Quran. (Remember 'waylul li-kulli humazatil lumazah'?)

Whereas, Quran generally talks about 'laanat' it means 'rejection' of the ways of the kuffar and the latter's removal from Allah's grace on the day of Judgement.

When Allah invokes laanat on Kuffar, that does not give Muslims a command to do likewise. That encroaches on Allah's privilege, a clear case of arrogance. Only Allah can judge who to reject.

Those who take over Allah's exclusive priveleges are bigots, who have caused so much grief to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike in today's world.

Contrast this with ayat 33:56, where Allah clearly commands Mumineen to invoke Salawaat and Salaams on the Prophet. Allah does not just say that Allah blesses Prophet but extends the command to all.

There is no ayat in the Quran which asks Muslims to invoke 'laanat' on anyone. In any case, that would be against the spirit of the Quran.

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#153

Unread post by makberi » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:17 pm

thanks porus tht was very interesting and helpful,
with regards to the debate on lanaat...
i was watchin passion of christ yest.....a brilliant movie .... something which really moved me was when Isa nabi is on the cross in unimaginable pain....he prays for the forgiveness of those who were responsible for his crucificion...in similar light do u guys think Imam Husain wud have also asked for forgiveness for Yazid in his final sajda???...n if he did wud it be appropriate for us to say lanaat on him......

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#154

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:11 pm

Originally posted by makberi:
thanks porus tht was very interesting and helpful,
with regards to the debate on lanaat...
i was watchin passion of christ yest.....a brilliant movie .... something which really moved me was when Isa nabi is on the cross in unimaginable pain....he prays for the forgiveness of those who were responsible for his crucificion...in similar light do u guys think Imam Husain wud have also asked for forgiveness for Yazid in his final sajda???...n if he did wud it be appropriate for us to say lanaat on him......
Brother Makberi,

Your question will spark a new argument. You know the reaction of shias when Dr. Zakir Naik said in one of his lecture "Yazid (RA). Tragdy of Karbala, Matam and mourning is more important for Shia & Bohras than Prayer. However you point is intresting and worth of discussion.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#155

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:11 pm

Your question will spark a new argument. You know the reaction of shias when Dr. Zakir Naik said in one of his lecture "Yazid (RA). Tragdy of Karbala, Matam and mourning is more important for Shia & Bohras than Prayer. However you point is intresting and worth of discussion.
Add to it who is righful owner of Prophet's throne? (As if Prophet was King not just a Prophet)

Z. Naik lost effectiveness of his message when Shias zeroed in on "Yazid RA" instead of what is important "Karbala, Maatam and Mourning" or Prayers to Allah SWT.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#156

Unread post by Danish » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:49 pm

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Abu Darda narrated that Prophet SAW said:

when a person curses someone, the curse ascends to Heaven, where all gates are closed against it. Then it descends to earth and turns left and right. After finding no exit, it finds the one who has been cursed and attaches itself to him if he deserves it; but if he doesn't, it returns to one who uttered it
Recorded by Abu Dawood
Seems like a billistic guided missile whose 'chip' went berserk, LOL ... the scientists will have hard time figuring that one out and automatically become demented, ROFL. :p

Mubarak
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#157

Unread post by Mubarak » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:18 am

Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:
Originally posted by porus:
Brother porus,

It is being qouted from one of the Risael (letters) of Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin which he wrote to Amils that time. I has been mentioned on this forum earliar by Mr. Saifuddin Insaf. He might have copy of that letter.

However, I am not agree with you that Bohras can be spared this ugly demonstration every day as the Young Generation of Dawoodi Bohras only know 51 & 52 while the older generation has proved tradition of blind following. Matam has now become a compulsory part of daily prayers too.
“Matam has now become a compulsory part of daily prayers too.”

Dear respected brother Hussain_KSA,

In the context that you are discussing the right term will be ‘Ladam’ i.e. breast beating and not ‘Matam’.

A poet has said for me everyday is day of Aashoor and every time is a ‘Matam’ time. ‘Matam’ means a state to remember an event and realize the lesson associated and express sorrow on what happened and cry or make face like crying / ‘Sadakallah’ / ‘Shok sabha’.

‘Matam’ is an integral part of Dawoodi Bohras and as per orders of true Dai-a-mutlaq Molana Aaka Abd-a-Ali Saiffuddin sahib (r.a.) ‘Ladam’ i.e. chest beating is strictly forbidden in Dawoodi Bohras.

In the war of ‘Uhad’/’Auhad’ when Muslims were crying on their martyr and there was no one to cry on the martyr of Molana Hamza (a.s.) our Sayyedna Mohammed Rasulallah (pbuh) felt grief there is one to do ‘Matam’ on Hamza (a.s.) then Muslims thronged the house of Hamza (a.s.) and did ‘Matam’ on Hamza (a.s.) on it Aaka Rasulaalah (pbuh) blessed those Muslims who did Matam on Hamza (a.s.).

Chest beating is promoted by Sayyedna Burhannuddin sahib and that is against the order of Aaka Abd-a-Ali Saiffuddin (r.a.) to cover his defects in public speaking. Refer to my earlier posts.

Best regards,

feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#158

Unread post by feelgud » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:05 am

Originally posted by Mubarak:
...and I am following what Allah does. Is it wrong to follow what Allah does?
Mubarak,
we are to follow the commands only as rightly pointed by Porus in detail and some of His commands in this context are:

49:6 O YOU who have attained to faith! If any iniquitous person comes to you with a [slanderous] tale, use your discernment, [5] lest you hurt people unwittingly and afterwards be filled with remorse for what you have done. [6]

49:11 O YOU who have attained to faith! No men shall deride [other] men: it may well be that those [whom they deride] are better than themselves; and no women [shall deride other] women: it may well be that those [whom they deride] are better than them­selves. [12] And neither shall you defame one another, nor insult one another by [opprobrious] epithets: evil is all imputation of iniquity after [one has attained to] faith; [13] and they who [become guilty thereof and] do not repent - it is they, they who are evildoers!

49:12 O you who have attained to faith! Avoid most guesswork [about one another] [14] for, behold, some of [such] guesswork is [in itself] a sin; and do not spy upon one another, and neither allow your­selves to speak ill of one another behind your backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, you would loathe it! And be conscious of God. Verily, God is an accep­tor of repentance, a dispenser of grace!

Mubarak
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#159

Unread post by Mubarak » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:27 pm

Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:
Matam of Imam Hussain has no relation with Shariate Mohammadi as the incident took place after the death of Prophet Mohammed (SWT).

I think you should use term of Shariat Ismaili, Muastali, Tayyabi, Taheri or Burhani instead of Shariate Mohammadi. Wouldn't it be better if you could scan and put the entire book "sansanikhez haqaiqe". on this board with the permission of administrator.[/QB]
Though the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a.s.) took place after the martyrdom of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) then also not only Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) but also all Mustakar and Mustoda Prophets and Imams have done matam on Imam Hussain (a.s.). When Aadam (a.s.) passed from land of Karbala he cried over Imam Hussain (a.s.), when ark of Noah Nabi (a.s.) passed the land of Karbala he cried (matam) over Imam Hussain (a.s.) and likewise.

Prophet Mohammed said, “Ana minni wa ana minal Hussain” i.e. I am from Hussain (a.s.) and Hussain (a.s.) is from me (Me Hussain (a.s.) se hoon aur Hussain (a.s.) muzse hai). Flesh & blood of Hussain (a.s.) is my flesh & blood and vice-a-versa.

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) was first to sacrifice his son Ibrahim on Imam Husssain (a.s.). One day Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) was very happy when he carried in one hand his son Ibrahim and in another hand Imam Hussain (a.s.). Angel Zibraeel came and said o’ Prophet you are very happy by carrying both kids but Allah want sacrifice of either Ibrahim or Hussain? Prophet sacrificed Ibrahim over Hussain (a.s.).

Very often Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) kissed on neck of Imam Hussain and remembered and cried (i.e. PROPHET MOHAMMED (S.A.) DID MATAM) by remembering that in future what is going to happen. We do as Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) did and that is called ‘Sunnat’ i.e. is called Shariyat-a-Mohammadi (s.a.).

Prophet also took promise from Hussain (a.s.) to save the religion of Islam by sacrificing his life, by sacrificing his children lives, etc

When Hamza (a.s.) martyred in Oohad/Uhad on his death ceremony Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) has prayed 72 times indicating and remembering that ‘Saiyyad-us-shohada’ of Madina is Hamza (a.s.) and ‘Saiyyad-us-shohada’ of Karbala will be Hussain (a.s.)

We do as Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) did and that is Sunnat thus to do matam is an integral part of Sunnat-a-Rasool (s.a.) / Shariyat-a-Mohammadi (s.a.) - as Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) himself have did matam on Hussain.

Mubarak
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#160

Unread post by Mubarak » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:37 pm

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Moosa (A.S.) served to Firoun dedicatedly for decades, preaching among his ‘Kipti’ students that Firoun is the true God on Earth. Among his trusted students ‘Sipti’, Moosa taught them the right things that there is no God than Allah. Allah is one. And Firoun is not God. There was a debate between Kipti and Sipti, they went to Moosa and Moosa favored Sipti student. Matter went to Firoun and warrant issued to arrest Moosa. Aasia, the wife of Firoun was a muminaa bai, she informed Moosa about it and Moosa went in hiding. Later, equipped with Allah’s gift of stick Moosa in the court of Firoun did debated and defeated Firoun and his sorceress.
Br. Mubarak

Fantastic tale. How come it was not included in film '10 Commandments'?
Dear Respected Brother Mr. Muslim First,

I regret, I do not know the answer for this question.

Best regards,

Mubarak

Mubarak
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#161

Unread post by Mubarak » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:06 pm

Originally posted by Aftab:
[Moosa (A.S.) served to Firoun dedicatedly for decades, preaching among his ‘Kipti’ students that Firoun is the true God on Earth. Among his trusted students ‘Sipti’, Moosa taught them the right things that there is no God than Allah. Allah is one. And Firoun is not God. There was a debate between Kipti and Sipti, they went to Moosa and Moosa favored Sipti student. Matter went to Firoun and warrant issued to arrest Moosa. Aasia, the wife of Firoun was a muminaa bai, she informed Moosa about it and Moosa went in hiding. Later, equipped with Allah’s gift of stick Moosa in the court of Firoun did debated and defeated Firoun and his sorceress.]

It is interesting to note that once Moses declared his intentions, he preferred to go in to hiding rather than submit an apology to Firoun. You can however justify any thing and every thing, but does it make it right?
Prophet Moosa (a.s.) was ‘Masoom’ i.e. by default he does only right thing and cannot ever make any mistake and they do as Allah orders them to do.

I do not say an iota from my own like Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer and Sayyedna Burhannuddin sahib does. This tale of Moosa a.s. is there in the Quran and in other authentic interpretations books of Dawoodi Bohras.

As Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) has said, “Imam Hasan aur Hussain beve haq na Imam che, chahe bethe ya khada reh ane ihna bava Ali inha be karta afzal che” i.e. Both Imam Hasan and Hussain are true Imam whether they sit or stand = they do compromise / ‘War end agreement’ (yudh-viram) or they do religious war. And their Father Ali (a.s.) is greater than them.

Moral of above paragraph is whether Masoom (in this case Imam Hasan/Hussain in our reference Moosa a.s.) go to war or compromise for war-end-agreement they are by default right, they do as Allah ask them. I am not justifying anything but sharing information that I have learned from Al Mukkaddas, Al Fazil, Aala Hazrat, Aali Janab Sheikh Ahmed Ali sahib.

That tale of Moosa a.s. is by default justified as Allah is ‘Aadil’ (one who does flawless justification). Whatever Moosa a.s. did was flawlessly right and justified and this is the faith of Dawoodi Bohras.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#162

Unread post by Danish » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:24 pm

Originally posted by Mubarak:
Prophet Moosa (a.s.) was ‘Masoom’ i.e. by default he does only right thing and cannot ever make any mistake and they do as Allah orders them to do.
Please stop deliberating asinine and malicious claims.

Aftab
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#163

Unread post by Aftab » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:06 pm

Danish, Mubarak has conveniently forgotten the tale of Khidr in the Quran. Khidr asked Moses to be patient and not to challenge his acts. Moses knowledge was not as encompassing as that of Khidr and he kept on making mistakes. He could not even follow Khidr’s orders! Of course Moses made mistakes and was not capable of following orders.

Aftab
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#164

Unread post by Aftab » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:11 pm

Sura 18 Al Kahf 60 - 80. BTW, it was Allahs command that Moses seek Khidr.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#165

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:56 am

Originally posted by Aftab:
Danish, Mubarak has conveniently forgotten the tale of Khidr in the Quran. Khidr asked Moses to be patient and not to challenge his acts. Moses knowledge was not as encompassing as that of Khidr and he kept on making mistakes. He could not even follow Khidr’s orders! Of course Moses made mistakes and was not capable of following orders.
Aftab Bhai,

As I mentioned in previous post that Mubarak is just repeating what he learned from his revered teacher and so are the kotharis who were also student of his teacher. Once I had an opportunity to attend Majlis of Shaikh Saheb and I did not feel any diffrence what the kotharis Aamil are preaching and propagting. I did know that Prophet has said something about "Haq na Imam". This is something need to be researched. Please do not blieve or trust all what you are reading here.

Mubarak
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#166

Unread post by Mubarak » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:01 am

Originally posted by porus:
Originally posted by Mubarak:
"Daimul Islam" by Molana Kazi Noman
This is very fanciful. The Daaim was written at the time when the Fatimi Imams probably expected continue ruling for ever and the office of Dai ul Mutlaq was not even a glimmer in their eyes.

The idea of Qaimul Qiyama was initially advanced by Hamiduddin Kirmani and dates after Daimul Islam. Qaimul Qiyama is not 100th Imam but, as part of Ismaili cycle of seven, his number would have to be some multiple of 7.
Porus: “The Daaim was written at the time when the Fatimi Imams probably expected continue ruling for ever and the office of Dai ul Mutlaq was not even a glimmer in their eyes.”

Mubarak: When you write you are using probability i.e. this may be right or may be wrong. You are NOT sure. When you say, “…the Fatimi Imams probably expected continue ruling for ever” can you kindly quote the source of this information or this is your own fancy creation?

As per the faith of Dawoodi Bohras, the Fatimi Imams are “Mustakar” Imams i.e. they are the Supreme on Earth. They know everything – all what happened in the past – from the birth of Earth, all what is happening in present and all what will happen in future – till the point when the life of Earth will come to the end as well as thereafter. Thus when you say, “…the Fatimi Imams probably expected continue ruling for ever and the office of Dai ul Mutlaq was not even a glimmer in their eyes.” As per Dawoodi Bohras faith you are making a false statement.

Allah said to Prophet Mohammed (s.a.), “I have taught u all what you not knew.” Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) said, “Ana Madinatul Ilm’e va Aliyun baboha” I am the city of Knowledge and Ali (a.s.) is its entrance gate.

Allah the creator knows everything, he taught to Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and Prophet on 18-Zilhijj-Hihri 10 appointed Ali (a.s.) his successor i.e. Ali (a.s.) became the successor of all the knowledge and wisdom of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) and when Ali (a.s.) met martyrdom, Ali (a.s.) appointed Imam Hasan (a.s.) the first Imam in the chain of progeny of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) as his successor and Imam Hasan (a.s.) to Imam Hussain (a.s.) ….to Imam Ismail (a.s.) to Imam Mohammed (a.s.) bin Imam Ismail (a.s.)…to 21st Imam Tayyeb (a.s.) and till the 100th Imam Molana Mohammed Quaim (a.s.). So, every Imam in the unbroken chain of Imamat in the progeny of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) is the successor of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) thus they know all – past, present and future. Thus, dear respected brother Mr. Porus when you say, “…the Fatimi Imams probably expected continue ruling for ever and the office of Dai ul Mutlaq was not even a glimmer in their eyes.” Are not you indeed charging Allah that Allah do not know anything?

Porus: “The idea of Qaimul Qiyama was initially advanced by Hamiduddin Kirmani and dates after Daimul Islam. Qaimul Qiyama is not 100th Imam but, as part of Ismaili cycle of seven, his number would have to be some multiple of 7.”

Mubarak: Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) gave 100 beads rosary to Molatina Fatima (a.s.) and not 12 beads indicating that there will be one hundred Imams in the progeny of his daughter Fatima (a.s.) and not twelve. Irrespective of Shia/Sunni sect every body does rosary of 100. This is an example and hint given by Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) on the number of Imams. Thus Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) has reveled in the beginning the forecast of Imam Quaim than Sayyedna Hamiduddin kirmani. As per the book ‘Daim-ul-Islam’ of Molana Kazi Noman and other authentic books Molana Quaim will be 100th Imam and when you say it will be in multiple of 7 then you are putting forward your own personal fancies which has no relation with Shariyat.

The cycle of seven that you wrote is called ‘Saatra’. This ‘Satra’ will end on 98th Imam. The 99th Imam will be the one who will bring every religion and sect on this Earth and those who do not believe in any religion in one unified religion of Islam. Once this will be done then the 100th Imam Molana Mohammed Quaim (a.s.) will come and that will be the ‘Qayamat’, the day of judgment. And on that day every big sinner like Kaabeel, Namrood, Firaun, Abu Baker, Umar, Usman, Muawiya, Yazeed, Suleman (of Sulemania Bohries), Burhannuddin and his father Tahir Saiffuddin, Asghar Ali Engineer, Chaman Aai, etc will be summoned they will become live like the people of ‘Ashabul Kaif’ in Quran. The justification will be done flawlessly then and there and they will not able to run away from the sin that they did in their life and prudent punishment will be awarded by 100th Imam Molana Quaim (a.s.).

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#167

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:03 pm

Mubarak,

What you post is extremely fanciful and very imaginative. My Taawil professor taught me something completely different. He told me that the number of Imams is dependent upon the number of fasts in the month of ramadan. So in case of Sunnis, the number of Imams that will appear keeps changing almost every year. Sometimes it is 29 and sometimes it is 30. In mumbai, since sometimes they have only 28 fasts, one of the Imams will have to go into hiding!! Now since 28 is a multiple of 7, we might have 7 imams coming 4 times each in a round robin fashion or 4 Imams coming 7 times every 29 or 30 years depeding on the number of fasts in the month of ramadan the year the Imam appeared. Things get a bit complicated if the number of fasts in that year were 28. My Taawil professor told me to wait till I grow three horns to be able to figure that one out. ;)

Mubarak
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#168

Unread post by Mubarak » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:28 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
Mubarak,

What you post is extremely fanciful and very imaginative. My Taawil professor taught me something completely different. He told me that the number of Imams is dependent upon the number of fasts in the month of ramadan. So in case of Sunnis, the number of Imams that will appear keeps changing almost every year. Sometimes it is 29 and sometimes it is 30. In mumbai, since sometimes they have only 28 fasts, one of the Imams will have to go into hiding!! Now since 28 is a multiple of 7, we might have 7 imams coming 4 times each in a round robin fashion or 4 Imams coming 7 times every 29 or 30 years depeding on the number of fasts in the month of ramadan the year the Imam appeared. Things get a bit complicated if the number of fasts in that year were 28. My Taawil professor told me to wait till I grow three horns to be able to figure that one out. ;)
Dear brother Mr. ANajmi,

What ever I am saying is not what I am personally saying but that is the faith of Dawoodi Bohras Ismailiya Shia who owns this website/Forum. You are charging that this post is fanciful and imaginative but you are not providing any proof to verify your charges. As you have not provided any proof to support your charges thus your charges are fanciful and imaginative.

You are writing as per your Sunni sect faith and what I am writing is as per the owner of this website Dawoodi Bohras faith.

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) said, “Ana Madinatul Ilm wa Aliyun baboha.” I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its entrance gate. Whose Taweel is that I will teach the course of 1st class and should you wish to progress to second class then go to Ali (a.s.). I will teach you the ‘Zahir’ and Taweel will be taught by Ali (a.s.).

Your Umar has killed Molana Mohsin during the pregnancy of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) when he hit the door of Ali (a.s.) house and that ultimately martyred Molatina Fatima (a.s.). On the death bed of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) when Prophet (s.a.) asked for leather/pen/ink so he can write ‘vasiyat’ in the name of Ali (a.s.) as his successor i.e. to write all what he announced on the 18th Zilhijj Hijri 10 on the ground of Gadeer-a-khum on this your Umar says that ‘Quran kafi hai aur kisi vasiyat ki jaroorat nahi, Yeh Mohammed mot ke nazdeek bakwas badbada raha hai” Mazallah (The Quran is enough and there is no need for any written will and in the near to death state Prophet is uttering rubbish). Your Usman has burned Quran! Your Abu Baker has ordered to put black rope in the neck of Ali (a.s.) and pull Ali (a.s.) in his court. And your Umar did that job. Your Abu Baker gave the oath of loyalty in the witness of Prophet (s.a.) and then later lied that there was no such incidence of Gadeer-a-khum. Your Aaisha came to fight Ali (a.s.) and she fired arrows on the dead body of Molana Imam Hasan. Your Muawiya killed Imam Hasan (a.s.). Your Yazeed killed Imam Hussain (a.s.). When your Caliphs and sect heads and your revered ones are killing and torturing to whom Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) loved most after Allah, then why do you think that Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) will grant the special affection to you (Prophet enemy) like us (Dawoodi Bohras = the true Islam)

Because your Caliphs and heads have done ‘zulm’ on those to whom Prophet (s.a.) loved most, Prophet (s.a.) has done such a nice management that you will not get the true Islam. We follow Calendar (Misri Calendar) which is followed from Aadam till Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) and you are deprived of it. Prophet (s.a.) has given a fix date for the Layaltul Quadra and you always miss it – you are subjective on the citation of moon and we have a fix calendar, you are in doubt that if Ramdan begin or not and we are foolproof in our approach unlike you. On the day of Eid-ul-Fitra we celebrate and you do fast. Most of the time you try to dacoit one day of Ramdan.

Prophet (s.a.) will teach the Zahir Ilm and Mola Ali (a.s.) will teach the batini / taweel. And as your trio Caliphs are liar as they lied the oath of Gadeer-a-khum thus they and in turn you will not get the true Tafseer/Taweel of Prophet (s.a.) thus your teacher who is teaching is not what is coming from Ali (a.s.) and what we say is what is taught by Ali (a.s.) which means that is coming from Prophet (s.a.) and in turn coming from Allah. Moreover from the above paragraph we infer that we are blessed with calendar and you are not thus your teacher trying to teach you via calendar which he do not own same like your Abu Baker who claimed that he is successor of Prophet (s.a.) which Abu Baker do not own. Thus what your teacher is saying is fanciful and imaginary.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#169

Unread post by SBM » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:25 pm

"Your Umar has killed Molana Mohsin during the pregnancy of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) when he hit the door of Ali (a.s.) house and that ultimately martyred Molatina Fatima (a.s.)"

For my personal information, I need to hear from some respected members like Br.Porus or Br. Hussain KSA or Br. Insaf or any one with the knowledge
HOW DID ANYONE KNEW THAT FATEM UT ZOHRA RA WAS CARRYING A MALE INSIDE HER WOMB, SECONDLY YOU DO NOT NAME AN UNBORN CHILD TILL AFTER THE BIRTH SO HOW ANYONE KNEW THAT THE NAME WAS MOHSIN
Like I said please respectable answers for the knowledge, NO CHANGING THE TOPIC AND MAKING IT SHIA/SUNNI ISSUE or any irrelevant discussion

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#170

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:08 pm

mubarak
Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) said, “Ana Madinatul Ilm wa Aliyun baboha.” I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its entrance gate. Whose Taweel is that I will teach the course of 1st class and should you wish to progress to second class then go to Ali (a.s.). I will teach you the ‘Zahir’ and Taweel will be taught by Ali (a.s.).
Actually the taawil according to my professor of taawil is that if you have one horn on your head then you go to 1st class, two horns then you go to 2nd grade and if you are lucky enough to have three horns then you are a true taawiler with a post graduate degree in taawilosophy.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#171

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:54 am

Br. Porus

As

Reference to Br. Mubarak's post of August 10, 2008 04:28 PM, I want to ask you one question:

Is that what taught to Bohras night and day?

Wasalaam
.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#172

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:18 am


Dear Respected Brother Mr. Muslim First,

I regret, I do not know the answer for this question.

Best regards,

Mubarak
Br. Mubarak;, AS
Do you have any reference for your ‘Kipti Sipti’ story (Like Qur’an or Hadith)?
Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) was first to sacrifice his son Ibrahim on Imam Husssain (a.s.). One day Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) was very happy when he carried in one hand his son Ibrahim and in another hand Imam Hussain (a.s.). Angel Zibraeel came and said o’ Prophet you are very happy by carrying both kids but Allah want sacrifice of either Ibrahim or Hussain? Prophet sacrificed Ibrahim over Hussain (a.s.).
Another fantastic story.

Any Quran or Hadith reference and it is Bohra Taweel ? (Sorry Br. Porus this ‘Taweel ‘word creeps up all the time!)

Wasalaam
.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#173

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:25 am

Prophet (s.a.) will teach the Zahir Ilm and Mola Ali (a.s.) will teach the batini / taweel.
So Brother Mubarak;

Maula ali RA must have taught Batini for more than 20 years after passing away of Prohet SAW.

Where are the recorded books of his Tawil teachings?

Wasalaam

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#174

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:50 pm

Brother Oma,

Nothing has mentioned in any authentic book of history as per my study about name of child of Syeda Fatima bint Mohammed (PBUH). We all are hearing this from our child hood in majalis during Muharram from Aamil and like minded. These people are trained from Jamea where Shaikh Ahmed Ali used to teach. His students including Mr. Mubarak is repeating the same thing. I am totally agreed with your logic.

Even the version of Karbla scenario is a bit contrary to what shia claimed to be the righteous one. For example it is narrated in our Majalis that Abdullah son of Imam Hasan Bin Ali was married to Sakina daughter of Imam Hussain bin Ali (Sakeena was just five year old that time) and the conversion between newly weded coupleat the time of groom leaving for Warfield which is being narrated by Aamil (mello drama) is not trust worthy or logical. While Shia says that Kubra bint Imam Hussain was married to Qasim bin Imam Hasan. In our Majalis we call Shehar Banu mother of Akbar, Asghar while as per history record and Shia preachers Mother of Akbar was Laila and Mother of Asghar was Rabab.

Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) has married his two daughters to Osman Bin Affan (Dul Noorain). Syeda Khadija Bint Khuwailed was mother of these two daughters but no one like to hear it.

Abbas bin Imam Ali (Abbas Alamdar) has other three brother martyred along with him in Karbala. There names were Usman, Abubakar and Omar. Does any body would like to mentioned it in Majalis honestly ? Even they are ashamed to mentioned their names while narrating the sequences of Aashoora on 10th of Muharram. Kindly read the name of 72 martyrs of Karbala. I don't if even we have different martyrs than shias.

I don't want to go in further details as people will again start calling me Wahabi.

Problem with our community is that we are habitual of hearing fancy and fantasy stories. We don't want to research ourselves.

I met one of the Jamea Saifia graduate last year during hajj and he told me proudly that he stood in distinction during the viva or oral examination in presence of Syedna Burhanuddin. I asked in curiosity about the question he answered during the oral examination and I was surprised to know that he was asked to sing " Aqa muala Taher Saifuddin nu Qaseedo ane aane Matlab". What more can we expect from such production of Jamea?

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#175

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:52 pm

Correction : Please read as follows,

Abbas bin Imam Ali (Abbas Alamdar) has other three brother martyred along with him in Karbala. There names were Usman, Abubakar and Omar. All of them were son of Imam Ali. Does any body would like to mentioned it in Majalis honestly ? Even they are ashamed to mentioned their names while narrating the sequences of Aashoora on 10th of Muharram. Kindly read the name of 72 martyrs of Karbala. I don't know if even we have different martyrs than shias.


Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#177

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:40 pm

As per the faith of Dawoodi Bohras, the Fatimi Imams are “Mustakar” Imams i.e. they are the Supreme on Earth. They know everything – all what happened in the past – from the birth of Earth, all what is happening in present and all what will happen in future – till the point when the life of Earth will come to the end as well as thereafter. Thus when you say, “…the Fatimi Imams probably expected continue ruling for ever and the office of Dai ul Mutlaq was not even a glimmer in their eyes.” As per Dawoodi Bohras faith you are making a false statement.
Mubark

AS

hHave you heard of Imam
Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah?
His eccentric character, the inconsistencies and radical shifts in his conduct and policies, the extreme austerity of his personal life, the vindictive and sanguinary ruthlessness of his dealing with the highest officials of his government coupled with an obsession to suppress all signs of corruption and immorality in public life, his attempted annihilation of Christians and call for the systematic destruction of all Christian holy places in the middle east culminating in the destruction of the most holy Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem, his deification by a group of extremist Isma'li missionaries who became the forerunners and founders of the Druze religion, [which] all combine to contrast his reign sharply with that of any of his predecessors and successors and indeed of any Muslim ruler.... The question is to what extent his conduct can be explained as rationally motivated and conditioned by the circumstances rather than as the inscrutable workings of an insane mind.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#178

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:44 pm

Br. Anajmi

AS

I am not sure if you are going to respond to Mubarak's post of August 10, 2008 04:28 PM?

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#179

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:46 pm

Kindly read the name of 72 martyrs of Karbala.
List I posted has 80!!!!!!

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

#180

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:26 am