Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

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AgnosticIndian
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Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#1

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:04 am

Well first up I am not a scholar or historian but gathered some knowledge through open source information. Our books are closed for everyone unless you get "raza".

So then here is my submission. Who is today's Imam?

For this I start with who we are. Ismaili-Mustaali-Tayyebis. Why so?
Let's go back in history then.
In less than 150 years of Zahir Imamate came the first split. Ismailis follow Imam Ismail while the large majority follow Musa Kadhim.
So split number 1 in less than 150 years of open Imamate.

Then there was a satar no Zaman in which only is Bohris know who the imam was with their names which maintains a line of succession to Imam Mehdi.

Then circa 1100AD or within 400 years of Imamate came another big split. After Mustansir Imam done believed Mustaali was the Imam & some chose to go with Nizar.

Last but not the least Tayyib imam at age 4 (some say a few months) is the surviving son of Imam Aamir. There was a split here too with the Hafizis. Still the office of Dai was established. The first few Dais with the first Dai getting Ilham from a few months to a 4yr old Imam to appoint his Mazoon and Mansoos.

Not only this we are aware of the many splits within the office of Dai.

Now the point is within 500 years of open Imamate there were three splits, in the 900 years of Duats, 4 major splits. And we have have had 900 years of SATAR NO ZAMAN, where no one has clue about anything, we have an unbroken line of succession right up to Imam uz Zaman?

900 years, would be at least 4-5 "successor battles" that if the 4 year old imam survived the enemies and had off springs. Rest all dwells in the realm of either make believe, falsehood,fantasy, I don't know what.

What I think is we are being taken for a ROYAL RIDE!!

AgnosticIndian
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#2

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:21 pm

Bump!!

Someone knowledgeable please explain the situation.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#3

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:06 pm

AgnosticIndian wrote: Bump!!

Someone knowledgeable please explain the situation.
Wait ! Badrijanab is loading his ammunitions !

AgnosticIndian
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#4

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:11 am

No one to answer my question?

humanbeing
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#5

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:49 am

Hidden Imam.. replied in Hidden Mode ...
You need to change your hidden mode setting... meaning.. start attending sabaks .. you will start seeing all hidden things !!

AgnosticIndian
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#6

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:56 am

Logic & reasoning doesn't need sabaks

mohamedshah
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#7

Unread post by mohamedshah » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:54 pm

To correct you Zaid Ibne Ali also split the community by Challenging Imam Mohamed ul Bakir (AS) Ibne Imam Ali Zayn ul Abideen (AS). There are those Ismaili's who do not recognize any other Imam after Imam Ismail ibne Jaffer (AS).

Accepting the lineage of Imam's is an act of faith. The Dai's chain is also based on a Maulatena Hurratul Maleka receiving a handkerchief with holes which signified the death of Imam Amir (AS), which signaled that the Dawat be established as had been planned (foundation stones had been put in place since the time of Imam Mustansir (AS). )

If logic were to prevail then one should seriously consider following HH Prince Karim Shah AL Hussini (Aga Khan IV ) as our Imam, their lineage is the one which has been protected by Allah, and as the speaking Quran (Quran e natik) not in terms of physical speaking - inference being the Guide to inteprete the Quran according to the times.

Mkenya
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#8

Unread post by Mkenya » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:31 pm

Why 'resurrect' the Imam!
Someone once said: Human beings do not drown their past; they give them swimming lessons.
Nasiruddin Shah in one of his movies said: Mazi ko mazi hi rehne do.

Today the Bohra community is going through a life-changing upheaval and someone is trying to make sense of the Imam-uz-Zamaan mystery. I say, forget it. The past is over. As reformists we have a battle to fight. The so-called Dais are battling over the carrion of cash and we are discussing something so 'wahiyat'. This forum is definitely not a Madressa. Our battle is real and not some Sheikhs hand-me-down photocopied bayans.

Get over it!

AgnosticIndian
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#9

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:45 am

mohamedshah wrote:To correct you Zaid Ibne Ali also split the community by Challenging Imam Mohamed ul Bakir (AS) Ibne Imam Ali Zayn ul Abideen (AS). There are those Ismaili's who do not recognize any other Imam after Imam Ismail ibne Jaffer (AS).

Accepting the lineage of Imam's is an act of faith. The Dai's chain is also based on a Maulatena Hurratul Maleka receiving a handkerchief with holes which signified the death of Imam Amir (AS), which signaled that the Dawat be established as had been planned (foundation stones had been put in place since the time of Imam Mustansir (AS). )

If logic were to prevail then one should seriously consider following HH Prince Karim Shah AL Hussini (Aga Khan IV ) as our Imam, their lineage is the one which has been protected by Allah, and as the speaking Quran (Quran e natik) not in terms of physical speaking - inference being the Guide to inteprete the Quran according to the times.


When a question of logic and reason is answered by illogical rubbish.

Nietzsche
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#10

Unread post by Nietzsche » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:04 am

Honestly, it's just what mohamedshah said. It's faith. What is the difference in believing in a hidden imam versus believing that adam was the first man, or the noah loaded animals into a boat, and survived a large flood (an somehow the animals reproduced with enormous success, magical gene pool). If you believe these things to be true, what's wrong with believing in a hidden imam? I'd imagine that the imam would want to hide from the current state of the bohra community. He probably would be just as successful a KQ has been.

salaar
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#11

Unread post by salaar » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:14 am

look friends religion is something that requires you to believe first and let islam alone there is no religion which you can understand if you go for logical thinking no! you wont absorb it it seems more like a fairy tale story and you would be left with no choice but to go for atheism now for imamat this is not something that should be discussed in a casual forum like this and requires a proper ustaad rather then people like us to debate because reasons are there but it is difficult to understand the meaning between the lines, as for an imam a.s age or other physical advantages or disadvantages does not matter, dont you remember an imam a.s when he was a young child if iam not mistaken imam moiz a.s whose hand was held by his teacher to improve his writing , imam moved his hand away saying nobody should have his hand above imams hand and wrote in beautiful script to the teachers surprise similarly after karbala imam ali zainulabideen a.s was again chained and taken from madina to another destination and on his way he said to somebody that these chains cannot confine them if they want to leave and he vanished, enemy returned empty handed then imam qaim a.s drew shape of a ship on the prison gate with a charcoal and flew out of the prison, these may sound fairy tale for you but this it is something believe it or leave it, similarly there are stories about anbia a.s like mousa putting his stick to face the pythons of firoun the stick turned into another snake and gulped the rest, in reality there were no snakes firoun called for the best debator and philosopher of his time to convince mousa who semt his stick who was haroon a.s to meet the challenge and haroon with his logical speech convinced the lot anyway words are different but the meaning is quiet different then what we see now you may believe or you may not but you cannot understand and believe these things like physics or chemistry. no hard feelings just tried to convey my view point.

AgnosticIndian
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#12

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:06 am

Point remains unanswered. Considering the position of Imam is "sacrosanct" , Moot point, there were splits in the Imamate when it was open for about 400 years. Its been over 900 of hidden Imamate during which even the office of Dai has split. We have what 4 people now claiming the Ilham of Imam, Sulemani Dai, Alavi Dai, MS & KQ pardon me if I have missed any more claimants.

salaar
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#13

Unread post by salaar » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:30 am

as for that, one can assume and what there is in the shariat that a person destined to reach the right place will reach there no matter how many claims for imamat or false daiships are launched for instance why maulana hur jumped out of the ranks of yazeedi army out of thousands others why syedi fakhruddin shaheed found the enlightment to get into an elevated position although he belonged to a hindu family now there are certain direct answeres and some hidden phenomenas which we call qaza qadar as the belief says generally you would get what is destined for you so we can presume that one should open up his wisdom search for the divine light and Allah will help in attaining a good place in this world and hereafter no matter how much chaos or confusions are created

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:56 am

Honestly, it's just what mohamedshah said. It's faith. What is the difference in believing in a hidden imam versus believing that adam was the first man, or the noah loaded animals into a boat, and survived a large flood (an somehow the animals reproduced with enormous success, magical gene pool).
Actually, there is a big difference. One is not allowed to move goal posts in religion just as in science. For example, the pagans believed that Allah had daughters and the Christians believe that Allah has a son. Allah refutes both of these allegations in the Quran. So anyone who has faith in Allah, cannot also have faith in Allah having sons and daughters. Remember, you might just as well say that the hindu belief of Hanuman swallowing the sun is also a matter of faith. Of course, one who has no faith in any of the above is unable to distinguish the difference and is not even expected to. There are certain elements which are not a part of Islam. You cannot make them a part of Islam and still claim to be a muslim. You are now something different, like Christians who have faith that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

So, if someone claims that such and such is a part of Islam, be it a matter of faith or whatever, they will need to show that it is a part of the core of Islam as defined by the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw).

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:17 pm

One thing about miracles. A miracle is valid only for the first and the second person. It is just a story for the third person. A lot of miracles are mentioned in the Quran, but these are just stories for us. We didn't see them. However, the Quran itself is a miracle that we are all a witness to. The beauty of its language and the way each word is chosen to convey the message is extra-ordinary. That is why, when people came to the prophet (saw) demanding miracles to prove he was a prophet of Allah, they were sent back.

So if Imams or Dais are claiming miracles for themselves, they are nothing but frauds.

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:25 pm

Now as far as Imamat is concerned, this theory should've been put to rest as soon as Hazrat Abu Bakr became the first Khalifa. Everything listed in the very first post on this thread by AgnosticIndian simply proves this over and over again.

james
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#17

Unread post by james » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:16 pm

What ? Prophet SAW didn't show any miracle ? Say it ain't true !
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

saw Allah's Apostle when the 'Asr prayer was due and the people searched for water to perform ablution but they could not find it. Later on (a pot full of) water for ablution was brought to Allah's Apostle . He put his hand in that pot and ordered the people to perform ablution from it. I saw the water springing out from underneath his fingers till all of them performed the ablution (it was one of the miracles of the Prophet).
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-t ... 04-sbt.php

What ? Prophet SAW sent back people who demanded miracle from him ? Say it ain't true !

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain.
https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious- ... 58-sbt.php

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:38 pm

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 379
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection."

Q. 03: 138
They (also) said: "Allah took our promise not to believe in an messenger unless He showed us a sacrifice consumed by Fire (From heaven)." Say: "There came to you messengers before me, with clear Signs and even with what ye ask for: why then did ye slay them, if ye speak the truth?" if you are truthful?

Q. 17: 90
They say: "We shall not believe in thee, until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,
His reply?
Q. 17: 93
Say: "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"

Q. 15: 07
Why do you not bring to us the angels if you are of the truthful ones?
His reply?
Q. 15: 08
We send not the angels down except for just cause: if they came (to the ungodly), behold! no respite would they have!

Q. 13: 07
“And the Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide.”

There is a need to look at the big picture. Look at Allah's response above for people who ask for miracles. Infact here is another great example from Surah Maida, this time for prophet Isa (as)

5:112 [And,] lo, the white-garbed ones said: "O Jesus, son of Mary! Could thy Sustainer send down unto us a repast from heaven?" [137] [Jesus] answered: "Be conscious of God, if you are [truly] believers!"
5:113 Said they: "We desire to partake thereof, so that our hearts might be set fully at rest, and that we might know that thou hast spoken the truth to us, and that we might be of those who bear witness thereto!"

This is the apostles of Jesus asking for food from heaven as proof. The proof comes, but with a dire warning.

5:115 God answered: "Verily, I [always] do send it down unto you: [138] and so, if any of you should henceforth deny [this] truth, on him, behold, will I inflict suffering the like of which I have never [yet] inflicted upon anyone in the world!"

Bottom line is that people who give proof in the form of miracles, should not be taken seriously. When people came to the prophet (saw) demanding miracles, they were sent back as is evident from the ayahs posted above.
What ? Prophet SAW sent back people who demanded miracle from him ? Say it ain't true !
It is absolutely true. Read the Quran.

salaar
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#19

Unread post by salaar » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:13 pm

friends i have a growing feeling that we are not discussing topics as sensitive as the lineage of imam a.s within ourselves but with people who are either believers of sunnism or wahabism as such i suggest we stop our debate or reasoning right here because my friends with this philosophy have nothing to do with imamat and so on they would neither believe it nor i have any ambition to make them believe, its my advice we should not bring into debate issues of such sensitive nature otherwise i have volumes to discuss the atrocities done by some people who were very close to Rasoolallah s.a.w.w, bani ummaiyah and abbasyids upon aale mohammad but iam restraining myself because i believe there should be some direction and the debate should be made in a cordial environment without hurting anybodys feelings. i hope you all understand my viewpoint.

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:30 pm

Now consider what some of us have been brainwashed into accepting.
e said to somebody that these chains cannot confine them if they want to leave and he vanished
then imam qaim a.s drew shape of a ship on the prison gate with a charcoal and flew out of the prison
And yet when Allah tells us in his great book.
mousa putting his stick to face the pythons of firoun the stick turned into another snake and gulped the rest
what do we say?
in reality there were no snakes firoun called for the best debator and philosopher of his time
Seriously? it is easy to believe in miracles narrated by humans but not in miracles narrated by Allah himself? Didn't Allah know the Arabic words for "debator" and "philosopher" that he had to use snakes and sticks instead?

salaar
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#21

Unread post by salaar » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:56 am

you have to understand the difference between miracles which has seldom occured and the qassasul quran that is the events recorded in quran for its followers, people say oh what great things are written in quran, i question them do you have the capacity or the knowledge to understand it, i can give a thousand examples where things are narrated in quran and it is beyond your understanding like the ship of noah the qurbani of ismail the starting words like alif laam meem and so on these are not fairy tale stories and carries different meaning and there has to have a purpose for these hidden meanings otherwise i tell you my friend there would be no branches in religion everybody would read the quran like a textbook and follow upon its instruction accordingly, have you ever pondered why rasoolallah as claimed by some used to carry stones on his stomach to subside his hunger there is a bunch of fools who actually eat peals instead of the fruit that means the fruit is destined for somebody else just like 23rd night of ramazan that is lailatul qadar and people claim that we have been left unaware and asked us to search for this night how stupid, anyways what i was trying to say is that dont mix miracles with the events of quran and for miracle rasoolallah said that we are capable of exhibiting miracles but even after witnessing them they would not bring imaan and yes people called it magic, maujiza is a rare phenomena which is very easy for personalities of this calibure no matter people believe it or not.

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#22

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:24 am

Well, if you can understand it, then I can too. There is nothing special about you. Are you claiming divine guidance? I hope not. So when you tell me that it is not possible to understand it, then you should realize that you haven't understood it either. Bring something a little bit more understandable the next time around.

ARB
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#23

Unread post by ARB » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:19 pm

AgnosticIndian, lets start with the "purpose" of the Imamate. Why is this office established? What was the original motivation behind keeping the bloodline alive? What are the true duties of the Imam? Does having pure blood automatically make you enlightened/worthy? Or can the spiritual wisdom be passed down to other disciples (like various other tariqas). Can someone explain through authentic fatmid books?

I personally believe that the original Imams (the first few) must have been on the path. After the first major schism at the 6th Imam between Imam Ismail and Musa-Kazim, things have gone really bad. Brothers have fought wars for succession (19th Imam Mustali vs Nizar, ending in Nizar's execution in prison). Imam Mustali, and later his son Imam Amir had no real power in the empire as all matters were overlooked by the regent Malik al-Afdal (who was instrumental in defeating Nizar). The Fatmid empire was at its weakest during their reign, due to bad governance..

Even more shocking is the way the Imamate resumed after the "discovery" of 11th Imam Mehdi. After the 8th-9th-10th Imam were in seclusion, two dais abul Qasim and Abdullah al-Shi'i were sent to Yemen and Magrib to prepare for the beginning of the Fatmid Caliphate, and wait for the Imam to make his way there. Abdullah al Shi'i suceeded in laying groundwork in North Africa, but meanwhile the 10th Imam Hussain al Mastoor had died (in seclusion) and the infant Mehdi was nowhere to be found. The efforts of the dai Abdullah al-Shi'i and the Dawat seemed wasted. Many years later a young boy, who Abdullah al-Shi'i thought was the true Imam Mehdi, was crowned 1st Fatmid Caliph, and was handed over the new empire. Later, seeing the rash governance of Imam Mehdi, Abdullah al-Shi'i started having serious doubts about whether the young man was the true imam Mehdi or not. According to Dawoodi bohra faith (as heard in bayans), Imam Mehdi had Abdullah al-Shii killed, to "prevent him from blasphemy and preserve his sawab before he took some wrong action". Meh. So apparantly, even according to our own beliefs, the re-appeared Imam Mehdi has a big question mark on his authenticity.

I understand that the topic of Imam is sacrosanct and taboo for many people, but some light should be shed on this nonetheless. Your allegiance as a bohri should be to the True Imams, not make-believe monarchs. The later Imams had nothing to do with religion/spirituality. They just used their claim to the bloodline to run an empire. And today the current dai's use the Imam as a link to divinity. There is a great possibility that not all the Imams and Dais were "spiritually gifted". Just as Nooh AS's son was not allowed on the ark, there is no guarantee that all the Imams were "exact copies of Ali and Hussain", as the current dai's claim themselves to be.

Hurrattul Malika waited 6 years for the infant Imam Tayyab to make his way to Yemen, and died appointing one dai Zoeb to run the affairs of the dawat. The early dais never claimed pseudo-divinity, or occult powers. They waited for contact from the secluded Imam Tayyib. Whether the contact was ever made no one knows. Whether Imam Tayyib survived the assault is also not known.

Im probably going to be labelled salafi/sunni, but please, i'd rather try be a true devotee of Ali, rather than a fake "momin"

seeker110
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#24

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:12 pm

This deck of cards is missing many cards.

salaar
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#25

Unread post by salaar » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:08 pm

for anajmi if you cant debate dont fool around you asked something and i gave you a reasonable justification for that, i never said i understood all what i have written by myself unless i learned it frm somebody and you dont have to feel shy learning anything frm anybody without bringing your ego inbetween, iam sure after reading this you would write something more foolish which iam not going to reply back but dont argue for the sake of argument unless you have something positive to add up.

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:38 pm

Actually, I didn't ask you anything because you said that you cannot understand. No point in asking someone who cannot understand is there? I can give a thousand examples from the Quran which you cannot understand. For example, Quran says "snake" and you think "philosopher". Seriously?

salaar
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#27

Unread post by salaar » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:43 pm

all respected readers we all know this is a forum on which we discuss about bohraism and reforms now if a person like me enters into a zoroastrian forum a wahabi forum or a hindu forum and start giving my suggestions or criticise them what does that suggest, iam there just for fun and with no emotional attachment or sense of responsibility because there is nothing common between them and myself similarly i have noticed people with anti shia belief are unnecessarily poking their nose into our affairs these admirers of enemies of aale mohammad should be identified and their participation should be stopped because this is not a forum for sunni shia debate, i have no grudge with my sunni or wahabi friends unless they mind their own business and neither do i participate in debates between barelvi maaliki shaafai or humbali because i have nothing to do with them then why should we allow their interference, if somebody is within the circle of shiaism only then that person should comment otherwise he should keep out of it . these people are giving references frm hadith of abu huraira, man what are they dragging us into please open your eyes and strongly react to their participation.,

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:50 pm

I am sorry, I am trying to figure out if you are whining or debating. Looks like whining. But I will give you another chance. Quran says "snake" and you say "philosopher". Seriously? Want to tell us which teacher of yours taught you that?

Wait, I already know your response.

You know what "Wahhabi" actually mean when used by people like you on this forum? Let me explain.

Wahhabi = "Oh man, damn, I have been caught with my pants down. My pants are literally on fire. Oh shit, there is no place to hide. I have been exposed. What do I do? oh what do I do? Mummy, do you know what I can do? Admin, please tell me what I can do. "WAAH, WAAH, WAH, WAHA, WAHHA, WAHHABI, WAHHABI"!!!

And by the way, Abu Huraira never claimed to draw a ship and then fly away!!!

anajmi
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Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#29

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:46 pm

Now, for those who are still following this discussion, let me explain why this "Snakes = Philosophers" theory is a load of crap.

There are many places in the Quran where Allah talks about people coming and arguing/debating with different prophets (as). For example,

2:258 ART THOU NOT aware of that [king] who argued with Abraham about his Sustainer, (simply] because God had granted him kingship? Lo! Abraham said: "My Sustainer is He who grants life and deals death." [The king] replied: "I [too] grant life and deal death!" Said Abraham: "Verily, God causes the sun to rise in the east; cause it, then, to rise in the west!" Thereupon he who was bent on denying the truth remained dumbfounded: for God does not guide people who [deliberately] do wrong.

3:20 Thus, [O Prophet,] if they argue with thee, say, "I have surrendered my whole being unto God, and [so have] all who follow me!" - and ask those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime, as well as all unlettered people, [14] "Have you [too] surrendered yourselves unto Him?" And if they surrender themselves unto Him, they are on the right path; but if they turn away - behold, thy duty is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.

Even the famous verse of Mubahila

3:61 And if anyone should argue with thee about this [truth] after all the knowledge that has come unto thee, say: "Come! Let us summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves; and then let us pray [together] humbly and ardently, and let us invoke God's curse upon those [of us] who are telling a lie."

There are many other such examples, where Allah answers the arguments put forth by the enemies of Islam. Why then in the case of Musa (as) does he talk about snakes and sticks instead of the arguments of these "debators" and "philosophers"? Wouldn't it have been more productive to tell us what the "debators" questioned and what Musa (as)'s response was instead of talking about snakes swallowing other snakes?

Infact, in Surah Shua'raa Allah has captured the debate between Musa (as) and Firaun. So, it is quite obvious, that there were no "debators" and "philosophers". Allah doesn't need to replace debators and philosophers with snakes as seen in the examples I have given above. These were magicians as clearly stated in the Quran brought in to prove to Musa (as) that he wasn't bringing a divine message but only tricks of magicians (do the 10 plagues ring a bell ? or were they the 10 madehs of Musa?). Firaun wanted to show Musa (as) that he had magicians in his court who could do better tricks than what Musa (as) was capable of.

Now, can someone please let me know which scholar first came up with the idea that these sticks and snakes were actually debators and philosophers?

Smart
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Imam uz Zaman-Trying to make sense of the mystery

#30

Unread post by Smart » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:37 pm

salaar wrote:look friends religion is something that requires you to believe first and let islam alone there is no religion which you can understand if you go for logical thinking no! you wont absorb it it seems more like a fairy tale story and you would be left with no choice but to go for atheism now for imamat this is not something that should be discussed in a casual forum like this and requires a proper ustaad rather then people like us to debate because reasons are there but it is difficult to understand the meaning between the lines, as for an imam a.s age or other physical advantages or disadvantages does not matter, dont you remember an imam a.s when he was a young child if iam not mistaken imam moiz a.s whose hand was held by his teacher to improve his writing , imam moved his hand away saying nobody should have his hand above imams hand and wrote in beautiful script to the teachers surprise similarly after karbala imam ali zainulabideen a.s was again chained and taken from madina to another destination and on his way he said to somebody that these chains cannot confine them if they want to leave and he vanished, enemy returned empty handed then imam qaim a.s drew shape of a ship on the prison gate with a charcoal and flew out of the prison, these may sound fairy tale for you but this it is something believe it or leave it, similarly there are stories about anbia a.s like mousa putting his stick to face the pythons of firoun the stick turned into another snake and gulped the rest, in reality there were no snakes firoun called for the best debator and philosopher of his time to convince mousa who semt his stick who was haroon a.s to meet the challenge and haroon with his logical speech convinced the lot anyway words are different but the meaning is quiet different then what we see now you may believe or you may not but you cannot understand and believe these things like physics or chemistry. no hard feelings just tried to convey my view point.
A very good example of the convoluted logic by which Abdes are conditioned and brainwashed into believing any crap that the masters want them to believe. Firstly they are told that it is just about beliefs. This is the first fallacy. Then, they are told that logic doesn't work, so no questions can be asked. It is then when a non logical, non questioning scenario has been established, these masters posit themselves as owners of a superior set of hidden knowledge. This is the stage when the dishing out of the bullshit starts. The above post is an example of the outcome of this process. My dear Salaar, stories of snakes and their interpretation are based on beliefs which are not verifiable. Clubbing them with scientific subjects like physics or chemistry which is not based on beliefs, but independently verifiable evidence, shows how successful your masters have been in sowing confusion in your mind.

This is the sort of confusion that helps them to create fear and exploit the gullible. No wonder the Masters live in huge palaces and treat Abdes as slaves.