Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
wise_guy
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:52 pm

Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#1

Unread post by wise_guy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:38 am

In olden days all Friday a beggers (sahil) would stand outside the masjid singing sufi songs in praise of maula Ali with a bowl in his hand.
Today in modern times
Sahil(begger) is kothar,inside the masjid, singing praise for dai asking money in envelopes.
JAGO MUMINEEN JAGO

tasneempati
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:44 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#2

Unread post by tasneempati » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:41 am

wise_guy wrote:In olden days all Friday a beggers (sahil) would stand outside the masjid singing sufi songs in praise of maula Ali with a bowl in his hand.
Today in modern times
Sahil(begger) is kothar,inside the masjid, singing praise for dai asking money in envelopes.
JAGO MUMINEEN JAGO
Mumineen are Cowards. Both parties are to be blamed for this. My friends they are writing big things here but all of you have no courage to come out in open.

Dr Fatema
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:38 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#3

Unread post by Dr Fatema » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:50 am

tasneempati wrote:
wise_guy wrote:In olden days all Friday a beggers (sahil) would stand outside the masjid singing sufi songs in praise of maula Ali with a bowl in his hand.
Today in modern times
Sahil(begger) is kothar,inside the masjid, singing praise for dai asking money in envelopes.
JAGO MUMINEEN JAGO
Mumineen are Cowards. Both parties are to be blamed for this. My friends they are writing big things here but all of you have no courage to come out in open.
Tasneem ka pati mumins are in deep slumber after eating Dabba/Thali jaman.

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#4

Unread post by true_bohra » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:00 am

ohh really...

salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#5

Unread post by salaar » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:35 pm

Let us evaluate things in an unbiased manner the idea of qarz hasana collection and disbursement is a fantastic idea to help people save their skin from interest menace and for a start it was alright to distribute envelopes for extending their help in this cause but it looks awkward when everytime you enter the masjid and you are stuffed with envelopes above that they have started it sending with tiffins and now it has lost its value and purpose, then comes the second part as to where that money is utilised but here Iam a witness that a number of people whom I know have been provided with qarz hasana for business and home etc, but nowhere these things are transparent they do favour their near ones and its not on merit, well that's my observation but I could be wrong.

Akhtiar Wahid
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:22 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#6

Unread post by Akhtiar Wahid » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:55 pm

So here is this story of my friend which i want to share as the topic of this thread is relevant,
So my friend's sister's father in law, wanted to do talaqi, chammar etc in the khidmat of newly apointed 53rd Dai during Quran khatmi tamasha, he tried registering it through shITS52.com but after so much patience he lost hope, he contacted someone from his jamaat and asked that me being a SHEIKHSAHEB not able to get such khidmat. Than cunningly this person from his jamat told him to call this fulan fulan guy from vazaraat in Mumbai. He called him he instructed him to come to Mumbai, so he reached Mumbai and he did a wink and told him to do salam cover of Rs5300 and do Rs1000 each to his chamchas nearby in BadriMahal. The following day he was seated in the best place for deedar, got chammar, talaqi and various khidmats for Muffy. :o

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#7

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:15 pm

salaar wrote: the idea of qarz hasana collection and disbursement is a fantastic idea to help people save their skin from interest menace
The IDEA behind qarze hasanah scheme :-

The true intention was to park the 0.01% black money of Kothar somewhere and what could be better then to keep it with Bohras where it is most safe as no bohra has the guts to run away with their money. Moreover it not only legitimises their ill-gotten wealth but also gives it the "Charity" tag due to which Bohras are overwhelmed and see it as "Mola nu ehsan ne karam" !! There are many bhaisaabs who also give 'Qarde Hasanah' in their personal capacity and the biggest lender is Qaid Johar, this helps them in ensuring loyalty and forming a gang of their own.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8377
salaar wrote:Iam a witness that a number of people whom I know have been provided with qarz hasana for business and home etc,
There are scores of cases, especially in gulf countries where the money is given to the rich bohra sheikhs who use it for their multi million dollar businesses and there is a huge concession for them when it comes to pledging gold as the percentage of gold that is required to be pledged is far far less then what the average bohras are required to pledge. In some cases money is disbursed even without any gold security ! The lower middle class bohras have to unsuccessfully run from pillar to post to get a loan but the rich businessmen get the same in no time at all.

salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#8

Unread post by salaar » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:00 pm

I agree that qarz hasana is issued quickly and different terms to well connected people and sometimes even the gold condition is relaxed but it is not that deserving don't get it altogether general people are given amounts which the local jamaat finds easily retrievable and if the purpose for borrowing fits their criteria, I have many friends engaged in small business who seek such amounts and if their payments are regular then things gets easier in future, however people are usually not comfortable in the typical bohra environment to go and face them, secondly their attitude is usually arrogant as if it is being asked to be given frm their pockets, sometime back I went to the concerned office and witnessed somebody who failed to repay the amount on time being grilled in presence of others which is wrong but then this is the only way social pressure with which they can make people pay on time.would h but If summarizing our debate I would say favourism is everywhere but we cannot brand this scheme a flop people are taking benefits out of it.

Maqbool
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#9

Unread post by Maqbool » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:56 am

Six month before in Chennai the khair has stopped all qardenhasanah scheme run by individual groups and given power only to one which is operated by jamat. The rules is loan against gold only. When argued that from where poor mumenis will bring gold, and was told that the capable mumenis should help the fellow mumin and should give gold to them to procure gold.

one of the condition of loan is: In case of 3 cheques dishonored, gold will be liquidated without any further notice.
The kothar wants their money safe and wants to risk others. and by the way the money they give loan is not their own, it is public money.

salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#10

Unread post by salaar » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:56 am

as discussed earlier getting qarz hasana is not an easy task and gold condition has to be generally fulfilled but that is as per shariat laws the condition says there has to be some form of possession for surety, terms of return should be clearly specified in black and white and no return in any form should be demanded from the borrower infact in olden days our elders even didnt drink a glass of water from the borrower, we criticize but name any institution in todays world which give you qarz hasana that is without charging any percentage and as mr maqbool said they have stopped other individual groups in chennai i can justify the idea by another aspect, about 20 years back i remember me and my friends used to distribute niaz hussain in sabils on road now most of the beneficiaries of that food were even unaware of the purpose and barakat in that and infact a good quantity was wasted and so on then our local aamil stopped the boys from doing so which infuriated some and people were asked to contribute niaz in the main stream or at least to do it within the masjid premises, after all these years my unbiased observation is that now it is done in a systematic way where more people are able to take the advantage with minimum wastage and so on therefore whatever action has to be taken it should be done collectively now critics may see different reasons or aspects but i feel if it comes under one banner it carries more strength but at the same time iam not assuring you of any transparencies in the sense that favourites must be getting the lions share but general people also get its fruit.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#11

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:17 pm

For years Bohra would complain wajebat wadhi guy Che, Amil zulum Kare Che ,
Har tarike control shazada loko Kare che, musalmano hase Che a kya si rit riwaj laya

A kothar paisa mange Che and upari jay Che new schemes to loot

So in 1970 reformists rose but Abdes refused to rise , were reformist too liberal no abde supported same excuse fear of barat, doubts

Jan 2014 SKQ rises again Abdes are not sure fear dur pok, are looking for any reason to doubt SKQ . The SKQ family has placed their lives and credibly on the line , created a plan but Abdes will try to find holes

If only they were as suspicious and doubtful with SMS

If they don't rise now let them suffer more then no one will come to help. Wait until SMS tightens the noose

Reminds me of people of Kufa!

Maqbool
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#12

Unread post by Maqbool » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:12 am

salaar wrote:i can justify the idea by another aspect
What example you have given does not fix here. If only one committee that is jamat is authorized to give kardan hasanah where Kheir and a big head of KA are involved.
The all scheme was working in Chennai was doing well. No one see any fault but the power of jamat was in danger, that is the reason they have authorized jamat. The jamat will exploit all those who are poor. Poor does not have gold and an advise by khair, other mumenin to give gold to poor to avail loan is not at all practical. The big question here is why the other mumenin will trust the poor mumenin when their so called khir khua is not trusting and giving loan only against gold. The Qrden Hasanah scheme is running without gold and for last so many years sucssesfully without jamat involvement.

If the loan is given against any security then it should be called interest free loan and not Qarden Hasanah.

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#13

Unread post by alam » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:15 am

In some jamaats 2 or 3 guarantors are required before a qardan hasana/aka Loan is signed off. The guarantors have to not just sign off but provide postdated checks in case the original borrower defaults. They started doing this and then people started asking again and agian for guarantors from same pool of people. eventually guarantors stopped providing the guarantee and the qardan hasana committee also realize this problem.

But the point is that this whole process whether you take gold or guarantor, is like a bank collateral. ANd problem is there is no integrity in the system - yes it does help for micro qardan hasana with good return rates, but all that is so miniscule - that most of time people just take qardan hasana for bigger homes, vacations and travels...

Meanwhile, the extremely poor mumineens continue to live in subhuman conditions, with no resources for adequate hygiene, water, basic education or enough money to get a trade school education.

So much centralized bureuacracy and red-tape. With so much money. And so much poverty amongst our brothers and sisters. Its so sad.

What happened to PDB Central Board filing something like PUblic litigation for better transparency of finances?

tasneempati
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:44 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#14

Unread post by tasneempati » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:30 am

From the day of inception this scheme was a deception. This was never meant to help poors rather it was for corrupt Amils, sheikhs & chamchas.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#15

Unread post by Bohra spring » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:53 am

Meanwhile, the extremely poor mumineens continue to live in subhuman conditions, with no resources for adequate hygiene, water, basic education or enough money to get a trade school education.
Can someone please quantify how big this issue is? Are we talking hundreds or thousands of families.

It is ridiculous and pity we can build gold and gemstone tombs, grandeur schemes while our brethren and sisters are living in such squalid conditions.

When quantifying the problem we need numbers, locations what is their current source of income if any ...they need to be put on a system where they become self sufficient and not reliant in handouts

What does it take to sort their facilities eg water, health and education grants for their children

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#16

Unread post by alam » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:39 am

Bohra spring wrote:
Meanwhile, the extremely poor mumineens continue to live in subhuman conditions, with no resources for adequate hygiene, water, basic education or enough money to get a trade school education.
Can someone please quantify how big this issue is? Are we talking hundreds or thousands of families.

It is ridiculous and pity we can build gold and gemstone tombs, grandeur schemes while our brethren and sisters are living in such squalid conditions.

When quantifying the problem we need numbers, locations what is their current source of income if any ...they need to be put on a system where they become self sufficient and not reliant in handouts

What does it take to sort their facilities eg water, health and education grants for their children
This is the kind of thing that random unknown Bohras (the quiet saints) are in touch with the pulse of the community. And depending on location and munaafiq power hold (aka Kothar sponsored Aamil to thwart any good deeds done by anyone else other than Kothar) has varying degrees of success. There are mumineen living in slums in various locations in india. It's hard to quantify without active support of Aamil, ar at least absence of their interference. It is an unfortunate state that Aamilsahebs and committees formed too help poor mumineens feel they have a patent on helping the poor. Sadly, power infiltrates many aspects of our community.

Anyone can attempt to go underground and do things silently, but quantification like you, BohraSpring Bhai, describe might become possible if conditions within the community improve in terms of fear, courage, freedom from oppression for the privileged and underprivileged alike.

If we the privileged feel the fear and suffering these days, we can perhaps see that we still have more options to make a difference when we think of our less privileged brothes and sisters.

wise_guy
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:52 pm

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#17

Unread post by wise_guy » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:13 pm

Yes. we are talking lakhs of bohra people who live in dire poverty all over India. Mumbai alone can account for thousands of bohras living in poverty (Thousands of poor bohras in extended suburbs of Mumba.. from Jogeshwari to Virar along the western railway line). There are poor bohras in main Mumbai area as well such as around the Bhendi bazaar area, and other suburbs such as Santacruz, Bandra etc..
Bohra spring wrote: Can someone please quantify how big this issue is? Are we talking hundreds or thousands of families.

It is ridiculous and pity we can build gold and gemstone tombs, grandeur schemes while our brethren and sisters are living in such squalid conditions.

When quantifying the problem we need numbers, locations what is their current source of income if any ...they need to be put on a system where they become self sufficient and not reliant in handouts

What does it take to sort their facilities eg water, health and education grants for their children

tasneempati
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:44 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#18

Unread post by tasneempati » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:32 am

Now the title shall be changed to " Jaago Kothar Jaago"
http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/s ... tml?page=4

confusedlady123
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:17 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#19

Unread post by confusedlady123 » Sat May 30, 2015 4:05 am

I would like to post one funny incident.
There was some program in which only women were invited. I don't exactly recall the occasion. But it was afew years back
One elderly bensaab was seated sorrounded by her chamchis. She was talking to them and there was quiet a mayhem.
Just then one middle aged lady came, and told the bensaab that she wanted a pass for qadambosi of SMB.
The bensaab asked her from where had she come and the lady said "dungarpur:
The elderly bensaab must have been a little hard of hearing and she heard "singapur (Singapore).
With a very broad smile she instructed one chamchi to give a qadambosi pass to" that lady from Singapur"
The lady realised that the bensaab heard her wrong and corrected her saying " not Singapur its DUNGARPUR" The moment bensaab heard DUNGARPUR the smile vanished frorm her face and very angrily pushed the lady and said "chalo jao ayyasi koi pass vass nathi. ..koi aa bai ne nikalo yahasi"
The poor lady shamefacedly went away

fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#20

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Sat May 30, 2015 4:55 am

Did you witness this incident or have you heard this thing from third person. Please don't get me wrong I know these people loves only money but the spontaneous reaction and the way she insulted that lady in front of everybody is doubtful.

confusedlady123
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:17 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#21

Unread post by confusedlady123 » Sat May 30, 2015 5:04 am

I was standing near the bensaab as I was one the organisers.

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#22

Unread post by true_bohra » Sat May 30, 2015 9:11 am

confusedlady123 wrote:I was standing near the bensaab as I was one the organisers.
so you are amongst the chamchis??? :lol: :lol:

confusedlady123
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:17 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#23

Unread post by confusedlady123 » Sat May 30, 2015 9:36 am

Unfortunately yes....at that time.. :(

SBM
Posts: 6351
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#24

Unread post by SBM » Sat May 30, 2015 4:46 pm

^
That was a very sharp response to TB and that should shut him up as he was trying to be sarcastic...

Moiz_Dhaanu
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#25

Unread post by Moiz_Dhaanu » Sat May 30, 2015 6:02 pm

true_bohra wrote:
confusedlady123 wrote:I was standing near the bensaab as I was one the organisers.
so you are amongst the chamchis??? :lol: :lol:
Hey TB
You being here on this forum and defending and supporting the nefarious activities of your Qasre-jaali and their Circus Ring Master DMBS in itself is a big proof that you too are a big chamchaa :twisted:

DMBS = Dawedaar Mufaddal Bhai Saheb

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#26

Unread post by true_bohra » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:36 am

confusedlady123 wrote:Unfortunately yes....at that time.. :(
and what are you now...

true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#27

Unread post by true_bohra » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:38 am

Moiz_Dhaanu wrote:
true_bohra wrote: so you are amongst the chamchis??? :lol: :lol:
Hey TB
You being here on this forum and defending and supporting the nefarious activities of your Qasre-jaali and their Circus Ring Master DMBS in itself is a big proof that you too are a big chamchaa :twisted:

DMBS = Dawedaar Mufaddal Bhai Saheb
Really ???

confusedlady123
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:17 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#28

Unread post by confusedlady123 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:58 am

true_bohra wrote:
confusedlady123 wrote:Unfortunately yes....at that time.. :(
and what are you now...
Now I am "see the title of this thread"(jaago mumin jaago)
Care to join me.
you will feel liberated.

DisillusionedDB
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:20 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#29

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:18 am

confusedlady123 wrote:
true_bohra wrote: and what are you now...
Now I am "see the title of this thread"(jaago mumin jaago)
Care to join me.
you will feel liberated.
Like :)

qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Jaago Mumineen Jaago !

#30

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:27 am

confusedlady123 wrote:Unfortunately yes....at that time.. :(
u had said that majority in ur building or neighbourhood are of similar thinking and attitude, so why not join SKQ enmasse.
that way u all will feel more liberated and wont have to resist kothari guys every now and then. somewhere it has to start, so why not with ur neighbourhood.