Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

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MMH
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:22 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#1951

Unread post by MMH » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:59 pm

Rightlyguided wrote:Adam

Very well explained

Totally demolishing KQs claims.

Rightlydisillusioned, have you read the counter arguments from Byculla, moiz dhanu and anajmi. Adam responds to selective messages and you 'read' selective messages.

Your adam has been thrashed with strong responses from all of the above..



Rightlyguided
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:13 am

#1952

Unread post by Rightlyguided » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:51 pm

MMH wrote:
Rightlyguided wrote:Adam

Very well explained

Totally demolishing KQs claims.

Rightlydisillusioned, have you read the counter arguments from Byculla, moiz dhanu and anajmi. Adam responds to selective messages and you 'read' selective messages.

Your adam has been thrashed with strong responses from all of the above..

Adams arguments were to the point and very relevant to the topic..

The matter of witnesses Nass and tawqeef is single most important thing. Because that forms basis of KQ claims.

Qutbi clan claim lntellectual superiority but cannot comprehend this simple fundamental fallacy.

Ridiculous

Its evident who gets thrashed..

Time and time again.



MMH
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:22 pm

#1953

Unread post by MMH » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:37 am

Rightlyguided wrote:
MMH wrote:

Rightlydisillusioned, have you read the counter arguments from Byculla, moiz dhanu and anajmi. Adam responds to selective messages and you 'read' selective messages.

Your adam has been thrashed with strong responses from all of the above..

Adams arguments were to the point and very relevant to the topic..

The matter of witnesses Nass and tawqeef is single most important thing. Because that forms basis of KQ claims.

Qutbi clan claim lntellectual superiority but cannot comprehend this simple fundamental fallacy.

Ridiculous

Its evident who gets thrashed..

Time and time again.

Rightlydisillusioned,
Are you implying is that the mazoon for 50 years was not on tawqeef. Are you saying that SMB made a decision 50 years back on who to appoint as the 2nd highest authority fully knowing that he is not on tawfeeq? Seriously you are beyond ridiculous. Shame on both of you..

Please read all the responses which CAME after Adam posted his, and they too have a logical and sound train of thoughts.

Looks like Adam is brooding in some corner and doesn't have a response...

You are right, its evident who is getting thrashed!



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#1954

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:22 am

The Nuss Drama was superbly orchestrated, the SMS camp followers rely heavily on strategically planned events .. yet these planned events leave a lot for sensible thinkers to doubt the authenticity of Nuss events.

well, even if one to brush aside those glaring ambiguities. one could move on for "bigger good" of faith and follow SMS camp .. but the stupidity, pompousness and arrogance keeps increasing with passing time. these are reflective signs, which shows shallowness and bunch of greedy thugs.

Well SKQ claim is also doubtful as he insists on trusting him only .. but so far his conduct has been very gentlemanly and calm, no laanat baazi, no loud talks, no silly and fancy fatwas .. SKQ seems to be at more peace in his humility and austere existence as compared to restless, short tempered, insecure SMS. this guy seems to be attention hungry, loud fancy fanfare to assure himself of his position and popularity among abdes masses.

one can obviously see and sense the frustration and anger within SMS camp that indulges them for laanat baazi, ridiculing, inspite of power and popularity is at their side.

these are indicative enough who lacks and possess ; tawfeeq and sabr



Biradar
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#1955

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:25 pm

humanbeing wrote:The Nuss Drama was superbly orchestrated, the SMS camp followers rely heavily on strategically planned events .. yet these planned events leave a lot for sensible thinkers to doubt the authenticity of Nuss events.



one can obviously see and sense the frustration and anger within SMS camp that indulges them for laanat baazi, ridiculing, inspite of power and popularity is at their side.

these are indicative enough who lacks and possess ; tawfeeq and sabr
I have addressed the points raised by Adam and other Dawedar Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin (DMMS) followers many times. Yet, like weeds in a garden, they keep appearing again and again.

First, naas can be done both in private as well as public. There is no requirement that a da'i do naas in public or even among witnesses. Even if say there was no precedence of a da'i or Imam having done naas without witnesses, a da'i does not need precedence to act. In the case of S. Qutbuddin, the knowledge of the naas was widespread. For example, Sayedi Saaleh BS, the mukaasir of STS (RA) and SMB (RA) knew about it, so did many other people. In fact, it is likely that many people who, out of fear and greed, support DMMS, actually know about the naas, but choose to keep quite as they have lost the fear of Allah, and, instead, developed a lust for power and money.

The whole fitnat which has led to the current schism, is from the jealousy of the brothers of SMB (RA), who could not stand that first their father showered so much attention on their younger brother, and second, that the first act of SMB (RA) was to appoint S. Qutbuddin as his mazoon. I have elaborated on the roles of Yusuf Najmuddin, Aliasgar Kalimudin and others in this fitnat, and pointless repeating it again.

However, I should say one thing again, i.e. about credibility. In situations like this, one must ask oneself who to believe? The answer has two aspects to it. Trust and personal example.

First, one must trust the person in whom SMB (RA) has the utmost trust, despite all the machination and conspiracy of his brothers and children. A simple and incontestable proof of this is that SMB (RA) had a single mazoon for 50 years, his younger brother. This, despite previous precedence in which Sayedi Najm Khan was removed from the post of mazoon when malicious lies were spread by his enemies. Also, when Sayedi Saaleh BS died, SMB (RA) could have easily appointed DMMS as his mukaasir. He did not, and instead choose Mr. Hussain BS. One must reflect on why this was the case. Why would, 50 years ago, SMB (RA) appoint his youngest (but one) brother as mazoon, but then when his children were all grown up, he did not pick one of them for the position of mukaasir when it opened up? To those who do not realize this, DMMS is not much younger than S. Qutbuddin. He could have easily been chosen instead. Yet, SMB (RA), in his wisdom ignored him.

In addition, one must remember that the central figure of the Zaahir-Batin fitnat was none other than DMMS himself. A person who openly and without shame opposes his father and disrespected his father's appointed mazoon, can not be trusted at all. In fact, this person, i.e. DMMS and his fellow conspirators, were breaking their misaaq in which it is clearly stated that "Swear that you will not separate Zaahir and Baatin" (Zaahir aane baatin nee juuduh to nahi karo?) How can one trust a person who takes the misaaq, repeating this phrase and taking the name of the mazoon in the misaaq, and then in the very next hour, go and slander this very person! Obviously, there is no way in which this person can be trusted.

Second aspect of trust is personal example. In the last 50 years, we have seen the intense sabaar of S. Qutbuddin, even when he was slandered, abused, physically assaulted and even his life threatened by assassins three times. He was patient, almost superhumanly patient, and suffered these abuses, yet, in his intense and personal way, educated his children and others who came to him, gave them life advice and helped them in any way he could. Try imagining this. You are beset with dangerous conspiracies in which people are defaming you and even trying to kill you. Yet, you keep faith in Allah, be calm and keep performing noble and righteous actions. You never complain to anyone, knowing full well that the only true being who will listen to your haajaat is Allah, who you can beseech in your heart, without the intervention of humans.

To see whose footsteps S. Qutbuddin was following, one only needs to read the prayer of Imam Hussain on the battle field of Karbala (Aalhumma anta thiqati):

"Allah, you are my refuge in every calamity and my hope in every catastrophe. You, in every disaster that befalls me, are my refuge and preparation. In this great sorrow, my heart in enfeebled, my strategies have run out, friends have stepped back, and foes gloat. It is because of my faith in you that I have been targeted, and my complaint is to you alone. My petition is to you, none else. Deliver me and fend off the blow. You are the giver of every blessing, provider of every good thing, the ultimate one petitioned."

To contrast, we have all seen the terrible behavior of DMMS and his brothers and uncles. I already mentioned the Zaahir-Batin conspiracies above. We all saw how SMB (RA) was manipulated towards the end of his life, control snatched from him, and after the brain stroke, the things which transpired are truly sickening and frightening. They paraded their old father around like mannequin, stuffing his mouth with false teeth, and the poor man could not even close his lips to cover them! They forced him to sit on the taakath, and made him talk into the mike, and all that came out were moans and groans of an old man tortured by his own children! I mean, who does this to one's old father?! Yet, we saw DMMS do this, not once, but again and again, day after day.

Meanwhile, even before his father passed away, DMMS snatched power, and did unspeakable things. He encouraged people to rat our their own brothers and friends who, in weakness of the flesh, may be consuming alcohol or tobacco. He encouraged friends to spy on friends and report to the aamil those who were taking mortgages on their homes. In fact, the Qur'an itself prohibits this spying and geebaat in Q49:12:

"O believers, eschew much suspicion; some suspicion is a sin. And do not spy, neither backbite one another; would any of you like to eat the flesh of his brother dead? You would abominate it. And fear you God; assuredly God turns, and He is All-compassionate."

I mean, how come a person who claims to be the future da'i, give fatwaa which is exactly against the explicit prohibition of the Qur'an?! Additional examples can be produced, and are well documented here and elsewhere.

Hence, on one hand we have a man, a mazoon no less, who is quietly suffering injustices, never complained and kept showing the Straight Path by his actions, while on the other hand, we have a rebellious son, consumed by jealousy and by his actions showing the Path to Hell. Who will you believe in this situation? To normal, thinking persons the answer is clear.

I would like add a couple of more points: first, people like Adam (a pervert who sends sexual messages to women members of this forum, thereby showing his own lack of character) are experts at lying. They say that naas can be changed and that S. Hatim changed the naas from S. Ali bin Muhammad al-waalid to his own son, S. Ali bin Hatim. Actually, this is gross distortion of the truth. The reality is that S. Hatim had made the intention to do nass on S. Ali bin Muhammad, and, when S. Ali found out, urged S. Hatim to do naas on his (S. Hatim's) son instead. There was no change of naas. In fact, S. Ali bin Muhammad himself became the 5th da'i al-mutlaq. These liars also twist and manipulate the story of the fitnat of Suleiman. It was the personal amanuensis (letter writer and literary assistant) of S. Dawood bin Ajab Shah who produced a fake letter, and it was the children and wife of S. Dawood bin Ajab Shah who led the finat of Suleiman. Exactly as it is today! Many more examples can be adduced.

The desperation of DMMS can be seen in the non-stop laanat baazi and hatred they continue to display, despite having all the power and wealth in the world. Meanwhile, S. Qutbuddin is quietly doing his job, educating people by making available material openly, living in peace and quite without causing mayhem and chaos. As humanbeing said, it is clear, even to a blind person, where sabaar and taqwaa lie. No need to comment further.



Mazakyo
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:01 am

#1956

Unread post by Mazakyo » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:43 pm

Good Points Biradar. One question though. An argument is put forward (mostly by the Qutbi clan) is that how can a person appointed by SMB (SKQ as mazoon) turn against SMB's wishes. SMB knew what he was doing when he appointed him. He was appointed with tawfeeq.

Then I guess a similar argument is that how did a Mukasir (Hussain BS) who was appointed by SMB sided with SMS (i.e. not with Haq as per you). So does this mean SMB erred in the case of Mukasir but not Mazoon?

Your thoughts will be appreciated.



Biradar
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#1957

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:57 pm

Mazakyo wrote:Then I guess a similar argument is that how did a Mukasir (Hussain BS) who was appointed by SMB sided with SMS (i.e. not with Haq as per you). So does this mean SMB erred in the case of Mukasir but not Mazoon?

Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Only in brief for now: there is a very big difference between a mazoon and mukasir. When Hussain BS was mukaasir, he himself has acknowledged this fact in a sabaaq, saying that the person of S. Qutbuddin was very exalted, and that a mazoon can not be compared to a mukaasir, and the latter has only very limited powers. He also totally demolished the Zaahir-Baatin conspiracy. I was present at the sabaaq where he said these things. Now, the fact that he turned against haaq is not surprising. Many people do that, out of various reasons. Fear, greed, lack of knowledge and lust for power are among them.

It is true that SMB (RA) appointed him as mukaasir, but realize that he did not expect him to deliver a precious trust, that is that of the naas. In that sense, SMB (RA) did not err. Hussain BS fulfilled his job as a mukasir. He stumbled towards the end and choose to abandon haaq, but that is not the fault of SMB (RA).

Hussain BS is old and he has been taken for a ride by the Muffadulies. Actually, he is just a puppet in any case, and no one really respects him. DMMS said that Hussain BS is saying so-and-so (referring to the refutation of Zaahir-Baatin conspiracy) to make himself look big. Now, this same DMMS has appointed this Hussain BS as his so-called maazoon! Here we see how DMMS rewarded those he hated at one point, but who now support him. I would not take Hussain BS to be credible source for anything at all.

Hence, again, going by the hierarchy of trust and actions, and by the words of Huassain BS himself, we should trust S. Qutbuddin.



Moiz_Dhaanu
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:57 pm

#1958

Unread post by Moiz_Dhaanu » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:15 pm

Mazakyo wrote:Good Points Biradar. One question though. An argument is put forward (mostly by the Qutbi clan) is that how can a person appointed by SMB (SKQ as mazoon) turn against SMB's wishes. SMB knew what he was doing when he appointed him. He was appointed with tawfeeq.
Then I guess a similar argument is that how did a Mukasir (Hussain BS) who was appointed by SMB sided with SMS (i.e. not with Haq as per you). So does this mean SMB erred in the case of Mukasir but not Mazoon? Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Biradar has written some serious thought provoking and plausible arguments..i hope people give a deep thought to them.

@Mazakyo
let me reply back to your Question with a question ,rather with 3 irrefutable facts .

1. that how did Nabi Adam(AS) who was appointed, by none other then Allah himself, broke a major covenant and gave in to Iblis(LA). So does this mean Allah erred(may allah forgive me for even mentioning this) in the case of appointing nabi Adam?

2. that how did Harun(AS) who was appointed, by none other than Nabi Nuh(AS) himself, started to worship the cow (albeit just for fake pretense) till the time Nabi Nuh returned back. So does this mean Nuh(AS) erred(may allah forgive me for even mentioning this) in the case of appointing Harun(AS)?

3. that how did Sham'un(AS) who was appointed, by none other then Nabi Isa(AS) himself, disowned him when he was asked by the romans whether he was a companion with Isa. He later realised what he had done and repented. So does this mean Isa(AS) erred(may allah forgive me for even mentioning this) in the case of appointing Sham'un(AS)?

I hope you got the point

Similarly nobody knows what is going on in Mukasir's (Hussain BS) mind ...is he faking allegiance to DMBS or for time being he has been duped by the elaborate nass drama ..only Allah knows...who are we to judge? Time will tell.

One more important point to think over..
Our Fatemi Doctrine tells us that, in satr(seclusion) of Imam, we are supposed to follow orders from Dai, mazun and muqasir ,and in that order of importance too.

So if we had the misfortune to choose between a conflicting order (may allah never put us in that position)
a.From Dai and mazun , then we must choose Dai's side ..
b.From mazun and muqasir, then we must choose Mazun's side...


Infact we all have heard that even if the true imam comes out and declares himself , we should first go and seek confirmation from Dai, because he is next in command chain..

Similarly when a shehzada (whose nass is doubtful) is pitted against the word of Mazun, then (even though mazun would have no witnesses), we are still supposed to follow the chain of command, and abide by what the mazun says...If we dont do that, then we have broken a major covenant of Imam's dawat.

Think about it , today we broke this covenant, then whats stopping us tomorrow from supporting an impostor who shows up as imam(bringing false witnesses with him) ,and never listening to what the "haq na Dai" has to say.
Where will this defiance stop? (By the way i think Badri's speech was just a precursor of more erroneous things to come from DMBS camp in future)

This is the true test for us to show how ardently we follow dawats rules. Burhanuddin mola(RA) many times stressed in his waaz , that Order(chain of command) and discipline are extremely important for Dawats functioning...how can one forget that?

Now in todays situation , the shehzadas have been in the process of maligning the mazun since such a long time, that we have been brain washed to believe that he is the bad guy.
DMBS told in many sermons that he knew from a long time that SKQ was “dushman” of dawat and hated Burhanuddin mola(RA)…..what rubbish he spews. :evil:

How very anti-doctrine he and his brothers who support him were all this time.
Infact ,there is a protocol which has been followed in dawat's history that whenever a Dai does nass in front of shahids(not a public nass), then as per the chain of command the public announcement(if it has to happen) should come from the office of Mazun , and then from Office of Muqasir..

But guess what happened in DMBS/ Shz.QJ's raj?
As per the drama we witnessed .."Burhanuddin moula(RA) allegedly told about Nass to Shz QJ and other shehzadas and instead of telling the second chain in command(mazun) , or third chain in command(muqasir) , he (shz QJ)took up on himself to deliver the news to the whole world."

I even got the news from someone in Muqasir HusainBS's khidmat that he(HusainBS) was in shock and awe that how could Shz QJ , have broken such an important protocol.
Nass announcement is not a small thing, that can be delivered via someone who has no authority in Imam's office.
Shehzadas have no relevance in Imam's office (as can be seen in Misaak).

Give this a thought

My intention to write this up, is only to awaken ppl who are still not seeing the malicious game the shehzadas have played on your faith(imaan) by twisting Dawats Doctrine to suit them.

DMBS = Dawedaar Mufaddal Bhai Saheb



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#1959

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:29 pm

One correction. Haroon (as) was appointed by Musa (as) and he did not pretend to worship the cow. He pleaded with his people but they were under the influence of Saamri and wouldn't listen to him.



seeker110
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#1960

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:49 pm

Both the candidates of Daiship have not lived life by meager means. They enjoyed all the unearned money of their parents. They have not served the community all or did away with haram maal. Not expecting any monks here, but atleast a wow of service for the poor, yateem and miskeen. They did not work to build charactor and goodwill, maybe done opposite and at times saved their own as..
It is and has been, more about the throne and whatever life they are used to.

We as Bohras need to find one learned, respectable and pious person to lead the fold. To achieve greatness in the eyes of people around us. We have to find somebody among us who has the likes of Abdul Kalam Azad, Addul Sattar Ehdhi and Agha Khan. I want to see some quality of Panjatan Pak in the person.

Too much power and money is involved with Tahir Saifuddin's family. Most if not all are greedy and takahat loving. They dont even sit like regular folks. Do not trust a leader in white clothes that renders him from rolling up his selves, and work for the greater good of all.

At least walk like a man about to go to work or war.Not like a bunch of Bailas. ( Dulhan ),



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

#1961

Unread post by alam » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:53 pm

Infact ,there is a protocol which has been followed in dawat's history that whenever a Dai does nass in front of shahids(not a public nass), then as per the chain of command the public announcement(if it has to happen) should come from the office of Mazun , and then from Office of Muqasir..
But guess what happened in DMBS/ Shz.QJ's raj?
As per the drama we witnessed .."Burhanuddin moula(RA) allegedly told about Nass to Shz QJ and other shehzadas and instead of telling the second chain in command(mazun) , or third chain in command(muqasir) , he (shz QJ)took up on himself to deliver the news to the whole world."

I even got the news from someone in Muqasir HusainBS's khidmat that he(HusainBS) was in shock and awe that how could Shz QJ , have broken such an important protocol.
Nass announcement is not a small thing, that can be delivered via someone who has no authority in Imam's office.
Shehzadas have no relevance in Imam's office (as can be seen in Misaak).
The above is an overlooked point that has never been addressed. Very subtle but very apt.

Say if SMB in his stroke state did utter words pertaining to the alleged nass to SMS, wouldn't the adaab and protocol have been for those who witnessed it to FIRST come the Mazoon and then to Mukaasir, and inform them of it? Why did that not happen? What fancy explanation can SMS supporters come up with for this omission and oversight.



qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 996
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

#1962

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:40 am

i am also hearing of this point first time only.
even not raised by kq people as far as i remember and not in husain bs all 13 videos on youtube given after smb demise.
is this protocol a MUST to be followed according to dawat texts?
is it followed on all previous 52 occasions?
this is a very serious point and can change all debates.
would like to know view from both sides.



fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

#1963

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:34 am

“Religion is Humanity” this words i had heard many times but the actual meaning or you can say depth of this line i had understood few years back. According to me Religion is Love, Compassion, Respect towards fellow human being. Religion taught us how to live life happily on Earth without hurting or harming others. Our great pious leaders has sacrificed a lot for us. It is because of them and their deeds we are able to distinguish human and inhuman behavior. Human nature can be controlled by 2 ways

a.Motivation or
b.By Fear

To me concept of Heaven and Hell are brought just to cater these 2 categories of people. The intention of our great pious leaders who brought these concept was very noble that is to help under privilege fellow being and spread love by either you help people with the intention of going to Heaven or You stop doing ill-treatment to other Human with the fear of going to Hell. In any case Humanity exist and the intention of those great personalities were achieved. Here one thing to note is those leaders who were preaching Humanity were the first to implement the things and kept on continuing so that others get inspired and in turn do the same. To keep the legacy of humanity get going generations after generations they create a protocol of selecting a person who should have all the abilities matched to that of pious person, does making sure that Humanity does not get wiped away, not only that A Guideline on how to live which pleases others and God as well is also written which we called as QURAN.

(Please do accept my apology if my understanding had hurt your feelings)

Now today when i match our current Dai with my overview understanding towards religion I can say he is NOT Dai material. Why i say so? because he treat us like slaves, live life like kingsize (whereas the people following them are struggling to meet their basic necessity), gets easily impress with expensive gifts and royal treatment, create hatred towards other people who opposed his p.o.v., propagate discrimination by selling title to rich and affluent people(do check your surrounding you will find many Shaikh, Mulla who are not fit to be called as Human being having title as Shaikh or Mulla..).

Let me confess that i dont have any literature or bookish knowledge about our Religion but it does not mean that i am dumb not to understand that this dai are running business in the name of religion and are power and money hungry.

Nass/No Nass, how earlier Nass was conferred, why was earlier mazoon was removed blah..blah..blah.. all these dai related histories are irrelevant to me, the only thing relevant to me is current dai and that this current dai is not fit for the position and is an insult to all the pious leaders(rasool, imams, earlier dais) who had worked hard, stayed simple, given hell lot of sacrifices just to keep Humanity alive.



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

#1964

Unread post by alam » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:10 pm

Moiz_Dhaanu wrote:
As per the drama we witnessed .."Burhanuddin moula(RA) allegedly told about Nass to Shz QJ and other shehzadas and instead of telling the second chain in command(mazun) , or third chain in command(muqasir) , he (shz QJ)took up on himself to deliver the news to the whole world."
Right on! This oversight is more than an infraction of protocol. The fact that they didn't - is a major error on their part.
And the public display of internal matters perhaps saved the community from divisiveness among the followers.



MMH
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:22 pm

#1965

Unread post by MMH » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:33 pm

My gut feeling is that Hussain b.s (current mazoon) and family are coerced/ threatened by his son in law (Badrul Jamali) who is Muffy's bro in law ( Jawharabensaab's brother). I am sure, changing his stance on the nass and the position of the mazoon has a lot to do with Badrul Jamali who is well known for his goon like methods of operating...



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

#1966

Unread post by alam » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:30 pm

If a 100 yr old Syedna with all the gift of the gab, the charm and charisma for thousands of conservative moderates and liberal Bohras to be at his beck and call (possible exception of a minuscule of progressives), chose not to rock the boat and declare nuss irrefutably for the 47+ years (when his speech was intact), in which he - SMB - upheld the position of Maazun in misaq , how do you expect another 100 year old mukaasir of SMB (Husain Bs, with no clout whatsoever) to do otherwise?

Im afraid the responsibility of the lack of clarity lies in the top 2 positions held for 50 years as Dai and Mazun - to SMB and SKQ. Ok ok - I know of the sidelining and high handedness of the SMB sons, YN and sons etc etc. SMB had the podium, the Takhat at his command, he did not use it for his most important job of this lifetime. SKQ was busy procreating and attending to his flock, young and naive as he was, and failed to use his power of being 2nd in command for 49 years.

This is part of the legacy for SKQ followers they have to contend with - the cowardice and fallibility of the previous Dai. Hope their flock (SKQ shehzadas/shehzadis , in case they don't know who I'm referring to)is reading this and not continuing to ignore the mistakes of the past . . . They too would do well to learn not to glorify SKQ to the point of creating and encouraging an incapacitating leader who can't afford to sideline his admirers and those who constantly sing his praises. Sadly, that's what happened to SMB. He was too taken in by his hero worshippers, and that became the key element in his major snafu.

Certain practices, rituals, ways of behaving, form the attitudes and become ingrained, and smart people from both SMS and SKQ headquarters have got to understand this and start taking steps to remediate this. What's to stop more schisms in the future of SMS DAWAT? It has become father to son legacy! Wait until there is dispute between two brothers instead of uncle-nephew as it is today? Or wait until "Royal" family demands for "Royal treatment" becomes impossible to fulfill by the decreasing populace? As the population of Jameea graduates increase, the "Royalty" demands are bound to increase. The resources extracted from masses of abdes and suppliers and financiers will be stretched.



yfm
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

#1967

Unread post by yfm » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:16 pm

These events are just the tips of the iceberg that remain to be seen by us and hopefully not by our kids or grandsons.

Nonetheless think about the following:

Mowlana Ali was selected by our Prophet Muhammad to marry his daughter Ma Fatima. What else can one think? If the Rasool can select him to marry his most beloved daughter, then surely Mowlana Ali must have been great. Yet when tides turned around and Abu Baker proclaimed that he was the next caliph, what did mowlana Ali do? He did not start his own faction and if he did, many muslims would have followed him. Yet he served Islam by serving Abu Baker. Then Omar then Osman and finally he became the next caliph. This great man, by earthly standards, served Abu Baker, Omar, and Osman. Now comes the seyednas and they proclaim that Abu Baker and Omar and Osman were munafeeqs. First of all when Mowlana Ali, himself, did not create any rifts and kept the muslims united, why should we believe the seyednas when they proclaim that Abu Baker and Omar and Osman were betrayers of the prophet when Mowlana Ali did not do that. The evidence reflects that the seyednas when their sons are thrown in to prisons, and their families are causing so much pain and suffering for the mumineens whom they are coing to take them to heaven and in the process ripping them off their money (some hard earned and some not), can only be judged by the justice of the all mightly. On earth, we have to recognize them as what they are- sheer imposters akin to hsutlers on the streets who can rip you off in no time.

May Allah give us what is best on earth and what is best in the heavens and protect us from money mongers seyednas and provide us true guidance from the mumineens.



asad
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 am

#1968

Unread post by asad » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:15 pm

alam wrote:
Moiz_Dhaanu wrote:
As per the drama we witnessed .."Burhanuddin moula(RA) allegedly told about Nass to Shz QJ and other shehzadas and instead of telling the second chain in command(mazun) , or third chain in command(muqasir) , he (shz QJ)took up on himself to deliver the news to the whole world."
Right on! This oversight is more than an infraction of protocol. The fact that they didn't - is a major error on their part.
And the public display of internal matters perhaps saved the community from divisiveness among the followers.
Not only Badrul Jamali even Tahir son of Muqasir Hussain bs was made to taste the luxurious life style since his youth. He was the handler of the old and feeble father and is the major factor in tilting Hussain bs towards MS.



MMH
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:22 pm

#1969

Unread post by MMH » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:47 pm

I may have mentioned this previously on the forum that the current mazoon (hussain b.s) would open up his salam covers in front of the people who had come to his hazrat for salam, and if the notes were less than Rs.50, he would throw the cover away at those people. He was very offended by a lower sum of money...so I guess he is highly learned but highly laalchi....

Another incident is when he would leave for home in his car, he would be found opening the covers he had received that day. A neighbor who used to cross his path as her workplace was close by saw him do this multiple times...so much for being a mukasir...so its highly possible that he got lured by some hefty amount given and changed his tassawur.


There are similar stories about Qasim b.s (current muqasir)....equally money minded....



asad
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 am

#1970

Unread post by asad » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:27 pm

MMH wrote:I may have mentioned this previously on the forum that the current mazoon (hussain b.s) would open up his salam covers in front of the people who had come to his hazrat for salam, and if the notes were less than Rs.50, he would throw the cover away at those people. He was very offended by a lower sum of money...so I guess he is highly learned but highly laalchi....

Another incident is when he would leave for home in his car, he would be found opening the covers he had received that day. A neighbor who used to cross his path as her workplace was close by saw him do this multiple times...so much for being a mukasir...so its highly possible that he got lured by some hefty amount given and changed his tassawur.


There are similar stories about Qasim b.s (current muqasir)....equally money minded....
totally agreed, I have myself witnessed Hussain Bs opening his covers and checking money. Even when his diwaans have checked the covers he sometimes checks it as old habits die hard. Now being incapacitated due to old age his son Taher must be doing it.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#1971

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:21 am

In kothari setup most of them are suspectible to corruption. for those who want to humor themselves find excuses.

For many abdes and bohras this is how it goes.

jamaat mullahs and sheikhs are bad .. amil is good
Amil are bad .. shehzadas are good
Shezadas are bad ... hudoods are good
hudoods are bad ... mukasir is good
mukasir is bad .. mazoon is good
mazoon is bad .. dai is good ..well dai is always good ..



kseeker
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#1972

Unread post by kseeker » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:49 am

Infact we all have heard that even if the true imam comes out and declares himself , we should first go and seek confirmation from Dai, because he is next in command chain..
this is not true

1.Imaam
2. Bab-Al-Abwaab
3. Hujjat -al - nahaar
4. Hujjat - al -lail
5. Dai - al - balagh
6. Dai - al - Mutlaq


The Dai amongst us (supposedly) is technically 6th in line....



Qadir
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

#1973

Unread post by Qadir » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:41 pm

kseeker wrote:
Infact we all have heard that even if the true imam comes out and declares himself , we should first go and seek confirmation from Dai, because he is next in command chain..
this is not true

1.Imaam
2. Bab-Al-Abwaab
3. Hujjat -al - nahaar
4. Hujjat - al -lail
5. Dai - al - balagh
6. Dai - al - Mutlaq


The Dai amongst us (supposedly) is technically 6th in line....
Please use your common sense.

Only dai al mutlaq is present in today's era.

But if you find any of the person between imam and Dai al Mutaq then please let us know so that we can also confront him when Imam perfoms Zuhuur (comes out in public)



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#1974

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:14 am

MMH wrote:My gut feeling is that Hussain b.s (current mazoon) and family are coerced/ threatened by his son in law (Badrul Jamali) who is Muffy's bro in law ( Jawharabensaab's brother). I am sure, changing his stance on the nass and the position of the mazoon has a lot to do with Badrul Jamali who is well known for his goon like methods of operating...
If correct, this is really sad. Husain BS (current mazoom) who I guess is likely extremely rich and well off, is willing to testify to a lie in his ripe old age for some more money/threats? Allah help preserve our deen of Islam.

I wonder if he will come to the court and testify? And talking of the court case, what happened on Nov. 16th?



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#1975

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:46 am

seeker110 wrote:Both the candidates of Daiship have not lived life by meager means. They enjoyed all the unearned money of their parents. They have not served the community all or did away with haram maal. Not expecting any monks here, but atleast a wow of service for the poor, yateem and miskeen. They did not work to build charactor and goodwill, maybe done opposite and at times saved their own as..
It is and has been, more about the throne and whatever life they are used to.

We as Bohras need to find one learned, respectable and pious person to lead the fold. To achieve greatness in the eyes of people around us. We have to find somebody among us who has the likes of Abdul Kalam Azad, Addul Sattar Ehdhi and Agha Khan. I want to see some quality of Panjatan Pak in the person.

Too much power and money is involved with Tahir Saifuddin's family. Most if not all are greedy and takahat loving. They dont even sit like regular folks. Do not trust a leader in white clothes that renders him from rolling up his selves, and work for the greater good of all.

At least walk like a man about to go to work or war.Not like a bunch of Bailas. ( Dulhan ),
Sir,

You are right about the above. However, as the old saying goes, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". SKQ appears to be significantly better than SMS, and he is oppressed by SMS and its majority. We should consider the lesser of the 2 evils and also support a person who is currently oppressed. [Even thought, I agree, he (SKQ) did not support the ordinary bohras when they were oppressed in the past 50 years.]



seeker110
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#1976

Unread post by seeker110 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:50 am

I have much faith in our community.s brothers and sisters. I also have faith that Allah will help us if we work towards achieving our religious obligations and goals.

It would be shame not to wash away with the royal family. Our Masjids are filled with yes men and looteras. We know the dark times of the last three Dais. Why are we not starting afresh.

Every town has many people like the Valika's, Alavis and Millwalas. Some of the well known philanthropists were women. They were important like the thumb in a hand. They will all come backup only if this royal family is put aside.

Choosing a lesser evil. Brother dal chawal , you explain that to your son. Me, I will keep screaming and kicking against the compromised, sinful affairs. I have hope of a better setup other then keeping things of yester years.



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#1977

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:53 am

seeker110 wrote:I have much faith in our community.s brothers and sisters. I also have faith that Allah will help us if we work towards achieving our religious obligations and goals.

It would be shame not to wash away with the royal family. Our Masjids are filled with yes men and looteras. We know the dark times of the last three Dais. Why are we not starting afresh.

Every town has many people like the Valika's, Alavis and Millwalas. Some of the well known philanthropists were women. They were important like the thumb in a hand. They will all come backup only if this royal family is put aside.

Choosing a lesser evil. Brother dal chawal , you explain that to your son. Me, I will keep screaming and kicking against the compromised, sinful affairs. I have hope of a better setup other then keeping things of yester years.
I am not saying you are wrong. More power to you. I wish you well and root for you.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#1978

Unread post by kimanumanu » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:52 pm

Anyone know what happened on the 30th Nov and 2nd Dec?



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#1979

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:42 pm

A Summary of this thread for Abdes :-

Image



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#1980

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:34 am

Does anybody have any update on the court case? Nov 16th, 30th (??), Dec 2nd (??).

Any coverage in the newspapers, this forum, from fatemidawat, anything else?

Seems like there is no news? Has the court imposed some restrictions on the news?