Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[DisillusionedDB]

Can you name the exceptions (in your judgement) and the reasons why you consider them so?

If I did, you'd be shocked.

Shock us.

[MMH]

Yes exactly! Shock us...don't beat round the bush.
Actually after all the things going around nothing would shock us. Come on haq ni dawat! Tell us..

[haqniwaat]

let's just say that not all the "royals" are on the bandwagon.

Yes exactly! Shock us...don't beat round the bush.
Actually after all the things going around nothing would shock us. Come on haq ni dawat! Tell us..

[MMH]

let's just say that not all the "royals" are on the bandwagon.

Yes exactly! Shock us...don't beat round the bush.
Actually after all the things going around nothing would shock us. Come on haq ni dawat! Tell us..

That's obvious not shocking. I thought you have a revelation...

[alam]

The so-called "royals" of Saifee mahal and badri mahal are in private personal crisis as never before in history. Naming them would merely multiply their turmoil exponentially.
samjo to samjo
naa samjo to naa samjo
No need to name names on either side of "royalty". there are abuses in the name of royalty everywhere, just as there are exceptions in any category we make up. We just have to be constantly on the lookout of our own tendency for prejudice, which is really a symptom of "shortcuts in thinking" rather than malicious intent, for the most part. Not all muslims are terrorist. . .
I will do it again, at the risk of igniting another fire... shabbirbhai sahib, abbasbhaisaheb and a few others high profilers in Saifee Mahal are in dire spiritual crisis, for the sake of their survival. Homelessness is a real issue, even among "royalty". lets be a bit more compassionate toward this, hmmm?

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Haqniwaat,

MMH bhen summed it up well - you are basically beating about the bush on this one.

Alam,

I don't know what to say. When a poor person who is living from hand-to-mouth is worried about his survival and does not speak up, one can possibly understand. When a person who is well off, has crores of rupees (I guess that is Shabbirbhai saheb, correct?), is keeping quiet so that his many crores don't become a few less crores, expecting sympathy - not a very clear case.

Their full brother (SKQ) and his family will be condemed until eternity by the Bohras on the SMS side - and they are keeping quiet in case they know something? [Their brother's daughter is being called Beizzat Tahera, and so are his other children and their families called bad words. If this split is permanent, KQ-side will be called bad words forever in Masjids and other palces by SMS side.] What are the full brothers and sisters of SKQ and the others in Saifee Mahal thinking? They aught to tell the truth: What will they say when they meet our creator on the day of judgement? What wil they tell their own mother (Ameena Aaisaheba) and father (STS) in akiraat - that we sold our brother short for petty worldly gains, when none of them are in critical need of money?

SKQ is asking ordinary bohras for support, and his own blood relatives are not even taking his side if they know that he is speaking the truth? Or, is it that SKQ is not saying the truth? Ordinary Bohras like us just want the honest truth.

[MMH]

Actually shabbir b.s daughter is married to mufaddal moula's son...is he being threatened with dire circumstances for revolting? I would think so. One of their sisters did say that SKQ is the real dai and then back tracked and as it happens...her daughter is the 1st wife of qusai b.s (muffy moula's brother) this makes me wonder!!!

There must be something really grave making them hold back...

[Ozdundee]

Bohras need to stop human worshipping whether that is SKQ or SMS .

Until they empower or try self liberation they will be taken for long rides.

These bs and zadis or all bunch of crooks out to loot.

Why is so difficult to break that chain of slavery for many ? In modern times Bohras including some learned men and women, self propel themselves to sajada and slavery.

At least the Hong Kong residents are trying ! Against a mighty communist party.

[haqniwaat]

Actually shabbir b.s daughter is married to mufaddal moula's son...is he being threatened with dire circumstances for revolting? I would think so. One of their sisters did say that SKQ is the real dai and then back tracked and as it happens...her daughter is the 1st wife of qusai b.s (muffy moula's brother) this makes me wonder!!!

There must be something really grave making them hold back...

Shabbir bs' daughter is not married to Qusai bs; one of them is married to Jaffer us Sadiq (mufaddal bs' son). Please get your facts straight.

[canadian]

^
haqniwaat:

Pardon my ignorance, but where/when did MMH say that Shabbir bs' daughter is married to Qusai bs?

[MMH]

Actually shabbir b.s daughter is married to mufaddal moula's son...is he being threatened with dire circumstances for revolting? I would think so. One of their sisters did say that SKQ is the real dai and then back tracked and as it happens...her daughter is the 1st wife of qusai b.s (muffy moula's brother) this makes me wonder!!!

There must be something really grave making them hold back...

Shabbir bs' daughter is not married to Qusai bs; one of them is married to Jaffer us Sadiq (mufaddal bs' son). Please get your facts straight.

I said skq's/ shabbir b.s' s (THEIR) sister's daughter is qusai b.s 1st wife. Read properly. I know shabbir b.s daughter zainab is married to jaffar us sadiq b.s...

[ghulam muhammed]

Shabbir bs' daughter is not married to Qusai bs;

SKQ's daughter Tayyeba bensaab is married to Qusai bs (she is his second wife).

[haqniwaat]

Qusai bs' first wife is Tasneem, daughter of Hatim bs Hamiduddin, Syedna Qutbuddin's brother.

Shabbir bs' daughter is not married to Qusai bs; one of them is married to Jaffer us Sadiq (mufaddal bs' son). Please get your facts straight.

I said skq's/ shabbir b.s' s (THEIR) sister's daughter is qusai b.s 1st wife. Read properly. I know shabbir b.s daughter zainab is married to jaffar us sadiq b.s...

[adna_mumin]

A post buried somewhere on this forum (from 2005):
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=968&p=16149#p16149

Pasted below anyway.

Below is an e-mail sent by a kothari, finding reason for Syedna's ill-health..

===============================

Long Live Aqa Mola TUS in best of health till the day of Judgement. Mari Umar khuda mola ne aapi dejo .

My fellow mumineen, recently our beloved Mola TUS health was under extreme duress. O Sons and daughters of dawat ul haq, let me tell you

who was responsible. Badrul Jamali bs was the sole organiser of Aqa Mola tus shikar trip and he did it without Aqa Mola tus khushi (this info directly from Shaikh Mufaddal Motiwala). Does anyone know Badrul Bhaisab left for Africa 4 months in advance to prepare for the trip. Or does anyone know that this hazrat went all the way to China just to buy a tent for the hunting trip. Or does anyone know he spent $20,000/- for each shikar animal but told Mola that they were for free. This lier lied to Mola. Not only did he not lie but most importantly did not do proper shikar bandobast which was the main reason for Mola's health deterioration. I heard there were mosquitos all over the place and inside mola's accomodation!


If our 94 year aged mola tus knew of such extravagant amounts being spent he would never agree to go, and most importantly, if preparations were not right, he would not have gone there, but this clearly shows the influence and lies and deceit of this bhaisab and his friends and bosses.


Another reason for Aqa Mola tus health is Mahal-us-Saifee being raized to ground. The representative of Governor of Mecca was pushed and abused

by the "great diplomat" Mohammed Hassan which accelerated the demolision process of Mahallus saify, which was so dear to our mola as it was built by Muqaddas mola. This surely must have been very hurting and painful for Mola tus.



Even after doing all this pressure on mola tus he is still at large. why? because he is protected by the power behind all this fitnat and fasaad : his all powerful sister Zohra baisahebat binte Shehzada Najmuddin Saheb.



Mumineen have experienced that her brothers have been making money whether it is construction in Surat and Marol or issuing Passes, events like ashara and other

miqaats. and they have amassed crores. but we do not care much for that, but this is crossing the line as it is directly hurting our mola tus. badrul Jamali's face has already turned black due to the blackness of his heart. see him and confirm for your self, or look up nasim-e-sehar where his recent shikar picture shows his dark side.


if someone did harm to your father would you sit idle and not raise a hand? This is our Beloved Ruhani Father.

If one mumin can beat up khabis Engineer for doing bakwaas in front of Aqa Mola tus then Why should we spare Badrul Jamali bs and Mohammad Hasan for deterioriting Aqa Mola tus health and hurting Dawat. This is the time to act, don't spare them. show your imaani josh and put an end to their nonsense.


Syedna's Adna Gulam

Abbas Arsiwala

[MMH]

[quote="haqniwaat"]Qusai bs' first wife is Tasneem, daughter of Hatim bs Hamiduddin


ok so the point remains the same....skq's immediate family is married to sms immediate family......
They must be threatened of severe repercussions....

Haqq ni dawat...I think you are an implant from skq's team. You should have 1st hand information.

[ghulam muhammed]

[ghulam muhammed]

The Times of India dtd 8th October, Page 9.

[adna_mumin]

Syedna succession row: HC seeks proof from half-brother
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 73085.aspx

Was there any hearing today? From the last month update i thought Oct 14 was scheduled for hearing.... was today last date for filing documents, agreed and disagreed?
And judge reiterated something?

So many questions and no clarity...

[adna_mumin]

ISSUES FRAMED ON 15TH SEPTEMBER 2014 IN SUIT NO. 337 OF 2014

1. (a) Whether the suit is not maintainable for the reasons stated in paragraph 1 of the Written Statement?
(b) Whether this Court has no jurisdiction to entertain and try the suit or grant the reliefs prayed for as stated in the Written Statement?
(c) Whether the reliefs prayed for by the Plaintiff in prayers (b) and (h) are barred by the provisions of the Maharashtra Public Trusts Act, 1950 as stated in paragraph 3 of the Written Statement?

2. What are the requirements of a valid Nass as per the tenets of the faith?

3. Whether the Plaintiff proves that a valid Nass was conferred/pronounced on him as stated in the Plaint?

4. Whether a Nass once conferred cannot be retracted or revoked or changed or superseded?

5. If the answer to Issue No.3 is in the negative, then whether the Defendant proves that a valid Nass was conferred on him by the 52nd Dai:
(a) On 28th January 1969
(b) In the year 2005
(c) On 4th June 2011
(d) On 20th June 2011
as stated in the written statement? If so, whether this amounted to or was a retraction or revocation or change or supersession of any Nass previously conferred by the 52nd Dai?

6. What Judgment and Decree?

Source: http://bombayhighcourt.nic.in/adjournlist1.php
CASE Lodging No. :- S/291/2014 & Reg. No. :- S/337/2014

There seems to be a edit made on 7-Oct to the List of Issues framed last time (15-Sep) as posted above. And somehow it seems that it makes what was earlier much easily comprehensible, not so anymore, at least to laymen.

The edit is to the Issue # 5, the new list states the Issue 5 as follows:

5. Whether the Defendant proves that a valid Nass was conferred on him by the 52nd Dai:
(a) On 28th January 1969
(b) In the year 2005
(c) On 4th June 2011
(d) On 20th June 2011
as stated in the written statement and if the answer to Issue 4 is in the negative then whether any Nass proved on the Defendant as above consequently amounts to a retraction or revocation or change or supersession of any Nass previously conferred on the Plainitff by the 52nd Dai?

Note how where we had Issue 3, it now states Issue 4.

It makes the whole list murky. If the answer to Issue 4 is negative how could the Issue 5 then go on to validate/invalidate the same again? Thereby saying that somehow "although a supersession cannot happen" (by literature one assumes) but in this case that it has happened?

Thereby hitting at the very foundation of the faith. Is this what the position of Shz MS and what his lawyer seems to have asked for and gotten in the hearing of 07-Oct-2014?
This is getting dirtier now Perhaps as expected...
Is this deliberate mischief or am i getting overworked at a non-issue?

Rabbana innana sami'na munadiyany-yunadi lil-imani an aminu bi Rabbikum fa'aamanna
Source: http://bombayhighcourt.nic.in/adjournlist1.php for case S/337/2014

[Biradar]

Perhaps it is early to say for sure, but S Qutbuddin is pretty certain to loose this case, and suffer yet more humiliation and abuse. The day the HC decides in the favor of Mr. Muffadul, the Abdes will be out and about on the streets, rejoicing, bursting fire-crackers and singing songs of joy. His brothers will be falling over each other to curse and abuse S Qutbuddin, and Abdes will be clapping in joy.

Mr. Mufdadul will be smiling all the way to the bank, reading his hunting gear to kill a few elephants and lions in Africa. Nothing is going to change, except his control over the community will become stronger. Sadly, S. Qutbuddin's movement will be history, and he will soon vanish into obscurity.

[haqniwaat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I'm reading it is that 5 is also saying that nass is retractable.

[Ozdundee]

If SMS wins the bubble will get bigger.

If SKQ wins what will the abdes do ? 950,000 or less will have to retake the misaq, they will pretend they were mistaken or misled . Where will the front line go ?

SMS will challenge the verdict and the case will go higher.

That is while both believe they are immortal !

The interested successors and why do I feel it is one of their sons once again for both will be very anxious they have will have longer life ahead and the looser has a lot to loose

[alam]

Adna_mumin

You are getting worked up over the right thing for the right reason, where what is right doesn't matter. Let me explain.

The courts will get stuck on item #2 forever. Both sides will argue tooth and nail, and whoever loses will claim "faith on their side which courts can never adjucate on". Similar will apply to 3,4, 5 and 6. Courts will be open playground for hikmat naa bayaan twisted and presented to suit each party. Whether Nass can be retracted or not will become a major tenet of faith differentiating the Mufaddalis from the Qutbis, apart from the obvious (as to who is Dai). It is the interpretation over these matters that the 2 parties differ, and court decision will be courts own interpretation.

Why rely on courts? Better to focus on Ground Zero and fight the challenges at that level - stand up against oppression and injustice in your little ball of influence, in your family, Jamaat, social circle.. In the larger scheme of things, that will do far more than the court case which will likely go on forever. That said, The "IDEA" of the court case can do far more at Ground Zero Level, in motivating people, than what realistic outcome can be expected of the court case.

There is going to be far more agony than it is now, either way, because this is the period of incubation where both sides are on notice for putting their best foot forward, because of the court case. Once the court case is over, the SMS crew will resume with far more venom, if that is possible, to persecute and oppress. SKQ crew will stay busy fending off attacks while fumbling for survival, relevance and outreach to the faithful, still in warrior victim mode.

It is an open and shut case, no matter how you look at it and who wins and who loses. For the loser, haq is haq and court case doesn't matter. For the winner, it is Fateh-Mubin, haq prevails, Mubarak Mubarak, laanut on Dawat na dushman. Sorry and sad state.

Meanwhile, It is only action at Ground Zero, no matter who wins and who loses, that will make a real difference.

[Biradar]

Friend alam, Good analysis, and very likely come to pass.

Adna_mumin
….
Meanwhile, It is only action at Ground Zero, no matter who wins and who loses, that will make a real difference.

However, I think the battle for "Ground Zero" has already been won by Mr. Muffadul. There is no going back. The Bohras are happy with Mr. Muffadul and they are busy with jamaan, roti-making, singing Happy Budday three times a year, and other frivolous, but enjoyable activities. S. Qutbuddin's movement lost the battle from the day it started, in fact, his brothers and nephews ensured that he lost it decades ago, when S. Burhanuddin was still alive. I mean, SMB himself could not control his children and brothers when he was alive. Now that Mr. Muffadul has usurped the da'i-ship, no one can touch him.

The thing which will continue for certain is the reform movement. Perhaps a few more people will become aware of it (at least in the West) and it may change a few minds. But any major changes are unlikely to happen. We will be taking about this a decade later, and still Bohras will be placid and happy with status quo, even though more and more of their dignity and pride (and money) will be taken away from them.

[saminaben]

I think this case is doomed.

[alam]

Let me elaborate about the The Battle at Ground Zero.

• it is not about succession fight

• It is not about your syedna, wheter SMS/SKQ winning or losing

It is about you standing up to others who represent power and bully you or others (Jamaat ayaan, Burhani guard, BWA, anjuman, QasreAali Aali, Aamil, or the Jamaat goonda Kaka, or masjid goonda Masi)
It is about keeping silent when asked to say laanut OR, better still, Speaking out against practice of saying Laanut.
It is about speaking up when you witness injustice on others
It is about not yielding to pressure when it is against your will
It is about not yielding to pressure for money,
It is about refusing to "rat" on your family, friends, and neighbors, and confronting the oppressor
It is about a willingness to risk being beaten (literally or symbolically)
It is about taking short term risks (of being shamed, etc) for long term peace
It is about courage.
It is about the real Jihad.

Need I say more?

And one more thing.

Forget referring to people in boxes such as Abdes/amtes, Shia/Sunni, Wahhabi/mushrik, Qutbi/Mufaddali, Reformist/khidmatguzaars, even Bohras/nonBohras, morons/brainwashed. Such labeling and namelcalling is a way to cast aside and disempower people when otherwise they are open to new ideas and rational discussion. It merely gives the user excuses and shortcuts to end sound arguments and healthy debates, in favor of seeming superiority. This too is the Battle of Ground Zero. Here, now, on this Forum.

[haqniwaat]

I think that once the dust settles and intelligent minds realize that Mr. Mufaddal and company actually believe that nass IS retractable, the case - whether it is won in court or not - will be won in the minds of the faithful.

[adna_mumin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I'm reading it is that 5 is also saying that nass is retractable.

That is what is for issue 4 to settle.

This is precisely why bringing it back over in #5 seems mischievous.
That is to say, If #4 is determined to be "No a nass once conferred cannot be retracted" then even discussing it as part of #5 is irrelevant for the faithful .
Coz which mumin in his/her sane mind can digest that the Nass on 53rd Dai is not within the principles of Dawat ul Haq (viz. Issue 4)?

To friends Biradar, alam - this case is neither about

a) "Battle at Ground Zero"
No doubt each human being in his existence does face and confront many issues on a daily basis. Some face more, some lesser so with varied degree of success.
OR
b) "S. Qutbuddin's movement" that ".. Mr. Muffadul has usurped the da'i-ship, no one can touch him.."
If Syedna Dawood RA proved it in a court of a different time, there must be no doubt that his true successor will do the same today. Insha Allah TA.

If we never look beyond the worldly material existence then well may be your skeptical view has any basis but this was never about Duniya alone in the first place. The people that will sell their Akhirat for Duniya have been doing it for ever and will do that even now, no surprises there. Those that truly believe in the Hereafter will not trade it for anything in this world.

The thing which will continue for certain is the reform movement.

The believer will have that certainty for Dawat ul Haq instead. "Reform" is a part of human instinct; both within and outside of himself/herself each has their own way of fighting back or in their limited capacity, cause/induce Change.

[kimanumanu]

Regarding the issue of whether or not nass can be revoked, I see references that during the Nizari-Mustali schism, there was acceptance that nass had been done on Nizar but was then replaced by nass on Mustali - does that not count as a revocation?

[haqniwaat]

The Dawoodi Bohra faith does not believe this was the case. But apparently Adam and Mr. Mufaddal and company do, that's why they have stated to the court that nass IS retractable.

If Adam has the guts, let him repudiate this instead of spewing his hatred all over the board! So, Adam? What's the truth behind this? !