Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Crater Lake
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2461

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:54 pm

Qadir wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:30 pm
In his Hadesa, Syedi Hasanji Badshah has clearly written how the books of dawat were misinterpreted as being Rafizi texts, knowingly or unknowingly.
The news site did not mention neither the book’s name not the author’s. I believe in Taweel of kitabo which would mean that what is written is not what what it means literally.
I still believe that the court case will prove victorious for Mufaddal Moula and pray to god it does. Even if he does not, which could be due to hikmat, I am not 1% unsure about my faith. This whole dawedaar thing was a test, the weak minded failed.
The first and foremost thing is if KQ was on the right path, he would never have brought the lawsuit. No Prophet, Imam or dai have done that in face of fitna.
Qadir read a little history before you exhibit your ignorance here. Syedna Dawood bin Qutub Shah, because of who we are called Dawoodi Bohras has hiked Suleiman to Akbar’s court and it took him three years of a legal battle before he was declared rightful Dai! So yes a dai in history has had to fight a legal battle in order to win his rights! And do you think that dawat would sanction ANY kitaab which claimed that one imaam killed another?! You are a bigger moron than I thought.

ajamali
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2462

Unread post by ajamali » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:00 pm

Qadir wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:30 pm
In his Hadesa, Syedi Hasanji Badshah has clearly written how the books of dawat were misinterpreted as being Rafizi texts, knowingly or unknowingly.
The news site did not mention neither the book’s name not the author’s. I believe in Taweel of kitabo which would mean that what is written is not what what it means literally.
I still believe that the court case will prove victorious for Mufaddal Moula and pray to god it does. Even if he does not, which could be due to hikmat, I am not 1% unsure about my faith. This whole dawedaar thing was a test, the weak minded failed.
The first and foremost thing is if KQ was on the right path, he would never have brought the lawsuit. No Prophet, Imam or dai have done that in face of fitna.
Absolutely predictable that a follower of MS would believe that it mentions in a dawat kitaab that one imaam killed another! After all they let someone declare in their majlis that MS was greater than Imam Hussain!!

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2463

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:22 pm

Qadir wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:30 pm
Even if he does not, which could be due to hikmat,
I sense a little hedging going on.....Qadir if MS loses, it will be because he lied about the nass and despite all his money and political maneuvering he was not able to corrupt Or pressure Justice Gautam Patel.

Qadir
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2464

Unread post by Qadir » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:47 pm

Crater Lake wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:54 pm
Qadir wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:30 pm
In his Hadesa, Syedi Hasanji Badshah has clearly written how the books of dawat were misinterpreted as being Rafizi texts, knowingly or unknowingly.
The news site did not mention neither the book’s name not the author’s. I believe in Taweel of kitabo which would mean that what is written is not what what it means literally.
I still believe that the court case will prove victorious for Mufaddal Moula and pray to god it does. Even if he does not, which could be due to hikmat, I am not 1% unsure about my faith. This whole dawedaar thing was a test, the weak minded failed.
The first and foremost thing is if KQ was on the right path, he would never have brought the lawsuit. No Prophet, Imam or dai have done that in face of fitna.
Qadir read a little history before you exhibit your ignorance here. Syedna Dawood bin Qutub Shah, because of who we are called Dawoodi Bohras has hiked Suleiman to Akbar’s court and it took him three years of a legal battle before he was declared rightful Dai! So yes a dai in history has had to fight a legal battle in order to win his rights! And do you think that dawat would sanction ANY kitaab which claimed that one imaam killed another?! You are a bigger moron than I thought.
Sulaiman did the case and Akbar summoned Syedna Dawood to Lahore. Get your facts straight.

Also, I don’t believe that Imam Hasan or Imam Husain had any role in each others martyrdom. It’s preposterous to even say that. I’m only trying to say that I don’t consider the news article to be a credible source for the fact because they did not mention what book and what exactly did the prof say. Also, the professor might not have mentioned the exact reference of the book.

I can also say that I don’t consider Ikhwan us Safa to be a credible source because it mentions that sun revolves around the earth. But i know that there is taweel behind the book and I don’t have the complete knowledge to understand what it means. Maybe that sentence has nothing to do with physics.

ajamali
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2465

Unread post by ajamali » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:02 am

^^^^ That’s a big joke Qadir! You guys have filled wiki pages with narrative that suits your agenda. That does not mean that it is a fact. A lie repeated a 1000 times is still a lie.


objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2467

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:14 am

Qadir wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:47 pm
Crater Lake wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:54 pm


Qadir read a little history before you exhibit your ignorance here. Syedna Dawood bin Qutub Shah, because of who we are called Dawoodi Bohras has hiked Suleiman to Akbar’s court and it took him three years of a legal battle before he was declared rightful Dai! So yes a dai in history has had to fight a legal battle in order to win his rights! And do you think that dawat would sanction ANY kitaab which claimed that one imaam killed another?! You are a bigger moron than I thought.
Sulaiman did the case and Akbar summoned Syedna Dawood to Lahore. Get your facts straight.

Also, I don’t believe that Imam Hasan or Imam Husain had any role in each others martyrdom. It’s preposterous to even say that. I’m only trying to say that I don’t consider the news article to be a credible source for the fact because they did not mention what book and what exactly did the prof say. Also, the professor might not have mentioned the exact reference of the book.

I can also say that I don’t consider Ikhwan us Safa to be a credible source because it mentions that sun revolves around the earth. But i know that there is taweel behind the book and I don’t have the complete knowledge to understand what it means. Maybe that sentence has nothing to do with physics.
There is no comparison between the statement you quoted from Ikhwan us safa and the statement in the text used in the court room. The sun and earth are symbols used often in taweel. However a statement about one imam killing another is a sick and inflammatory statement and any book that makes such a statement can then not be used to prove a point about the Imamate. Please do not muddle the issue.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2468

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:59 am

I don't have any sense as to how many in the community are even reading the newspapers or are aware thru other (social) media platforms about MS BS side having referenced this book (which said one imam killed another imam) to gain support for their case for nass.

I understand the indignation on this forum. How does one increase the community awareness? Without that, the impact may be nothing significant.

Qadir
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2469

Unread post by Qadir » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:53 am

If this book was in dawat for a long time then all the dai have read it and have saved it. Making a claim that this unnamed book which we don’t know who the author is and some professor doesn’t consider it credible, is the reason dawat is wrong, then maybe you should consider yourself calling a Bohra.
I would definitely not consider a book credible if it says that Imam killed another Imam, but we have to hear from the other side as well. If that book was written before Mufaddal Moula then even TF should come to its defense because he also claims to hold the same position as previous dais who defended that book.
I would like to know the name of the book atleast and who wrote it. If the professor understood dawat so well and has read all the books of dawat, why didn’t he convert? I think its because he does not understand it fully and properly

Qadir
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2470

Unread post by Qadir » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:53 am

If this book was in dawat for a long time then all the dai have read it and have saved it. Making a claim that this unnamed book which we don’t know who the author is and some professor doesn’t consider it credible, is the reason dawat is wrong, then maybe you should consider yourself calling a Bohra.
I would definitely not consider a book credible if it says that Imam killed another Imam, but we have to hear from the other side as well. If that book was written before Mufaddal Moula then even TF should come to its defense because he also claims to hold the same position as previous dais who defended that book.
I would like to know the name of the book atleast and who wrote it. If the professor understood dawat so well and has read all the books of dawat, why didn’t he convert? I think its because he does not understand it fully and properly

ShabbirDoctor
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:26 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2471

Unread post by ShabbirDoctor » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:57 pm

Qadir wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:53 am
If this book was in dawat for a long time then all the dai have read it and have saved it. Making a claim that this unnamed book which we don’t know who the author is and some professor doesn’t consider it credible, is the reason dawat is wrong, then maybe you should consider yourself calling a Bohra.
I would definitely not consider a book credible if it says that Imam killed another Imam, but we have to hear from the other side as well. If that book was written before Mufaddal Moula then even TF should come to its defense because he also claims to hold the same position as previous dais who defended that book.
I would like to know the name of the book atleast and who wrote it. If the professor understood dawat so well and has read all the books of dawat, why didn’t he convert? I think its because he does not understand it fully and properly
Qadir - The book was written in the year 517 AH (1123 AD) and is called "The fall of the lightning of humiliation" - there are no reliable manuscripts in existence because the book has been revised so many times by so many people over the last 900 years since it was written.

It is the trustworthiness of Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin and his book that is in question. The point is that the book he presented to the court is so corrupted (saying, nauzobillah, that one of the Prophet's beloved Grandsons killed the other) that whatever else has survived is completely suspect and unreliable. And now Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin is using this book as a supposedly unimpeachable statement of doctrine issued by the Imam.

Sure thing Qadir, I guess you don't even 1% doubt any of the senseless things that Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin is saying in court such as that the 18th Imam Al-Mustansir Billah, appointed first Nizar, secondly Abdullah and lastly Imam Mustaali as his successor. Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin claims to be infallible himself, but apparently it took Imam Mustansir three tries to get it right!

What nonsensical statement will Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin make next? That the 5th Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq appointed Musa Kazim as his successor after the 6th Imam Ismail passed away during Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq's lifetime? Oh sorry, he already did!
Last edited by ShabbirDoctor on Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RedBox
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2472

Unread post by RedBox » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:22 am

This is getting so interesting, glad that I saw the light of truth long back and now I am unaffected of all these fightings. :D

Person who takes reference from any such book deserves to be burn in public along with that book.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2473

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:31 pm

That such a book exists is not, in itself, an issue. Some hater of Islam wrote such a book, and wrote in it that Imam Hasan/Hussain, one killed the other one. And that it exists in some chain of transmission somewhere in the Dawat library is not an issue, per se.

For example, it could be kept as a cautionary tale of how people can write anything, literally any rubbish.

That MS-side was trying to use this book to made their case for nass IS THE ISSUE. That is the thing that they should be made to answer. How could they use such a book to made the case for a nass? That means they have nothing else, and that the will stoop to any level to win in the court. Sad.

Qadir
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2474

Unread post by Qadir » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:14 pm

After listening to Hadesa of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed all these years, I thought about how it could have happened. Dai whoso many people followed and even the chief police of Ahmedabad revered, martyred by Aurangzeb who as a muslim would know better that someone who prays namaz, kalamatas Shahadat and Quran cannnot be a rafizi. How could no one have raised a voice after reading the books that indeed Bohras were Muslim.

What I am seeing for the past couple of days is the same thing. Just like how the people asked 'literates' to review all the books of dawat, TF brought an American professor who isn't even muslim, does not understand the concept of taweel to review the doctrines of Islam. I read the paper that the professors' testimony did not help either side but did a great job in bringing insult to dawat because he misinterpreted a part of the book of which we still don't know the name, author or what section of the book was referenced.

The events of hadesa seem logical now. The only difference is dawat is stronger today and the leaders of the nation have got our back. Surely, the justice system is independent, and I hope it remains so. The whole idea that so many people are in dawat because they are forced or have no other option is so untrue. I agree there are a few but if they actually care about deen then they would have converted already. They don't like the insistence in dawat of living according to shariat, they like trimming beard and going out without purdah. At the end these are the people who will be rejoiced if TF wins because it would mean no more fmb hoob, no more niyaz and above all no more kothar. Majority of bohras who care about the deen will surely stay with the true dai of Imam until dawat claims back what was its. It has happened before and it can surely happen again.

kseeker
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2475

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Qadir wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:47 pm
Crater Lake wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:54 pm


Qadir read a little history before you exhibit your ignorance here. Syedna Dawood bin Qutub Shah, because of who we are called Dawoodi Bohras has hiked Suleiman to Akbar’s court and it took him three years of a legal battle before he was declared rightful Dai! So yes a dai in history has had to fight a legal battle in order to win his rights! And do you think that dawat would sanction ANY kitaab which claimed that one imaam killed another?! You are a bigger moron than I thought.
Sulaiman did the case and Akbar summoned Syedna Dawood to Lahore. Get your facts straight.

Also, I don’t believe that Imam Hasan or Imam Husain had any role in each others martyrdom. It’s preposterous to even say that. I’m only trying to say that I don’t consider the news article to be a credible source for the fact because they did not mention what book and what exactly did the prof say. Also, the professor might not have mentioned the exact reference of the book.

I can also say that I don’t consider Ikhwan us Safa to be a credible source because it mentions that sun revolves around the earth. But i know that there is taweel behind the book and I don’t have the complete knowledge to understand what it means. Maybe that sentence has nothing to do with physics.
The Ikhwan us Safa was written by Imam Ahmad Al Mastoor and kept different chapters in different mosques for people to see.. Therefore, this book and all of its contents are to be taken in literal meaning or atleast in context to the topic being discussed in which the line was written...
FYI - scientists now say that the earth does not revolve around the sun.. it does so around a "Centre of Mass" which is holding our galaxy together... let's wait and see when the next scientific 'fact' comes....
I am not saying there is no taweel to Ikhwan us Safa, what I am saying is to not justify Mufaddal and his lawyer's actions by comparing heretic books to an Imam's work.

ShabbirDoctor
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:26 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2476

Unread post by ShabbirDoctor » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:04 pm

Qadir wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:14 pm
After listening to Hadesa of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed all these years, I thought about how it could have happened. Dai whoso many people followed and even the chief police of Ahmedabad revered, martyred by Aurangzeb who as a muslim would know better that someone who prays namaz, kalamatas Shahadat and Quran cannnot be a rafizi. How could no one have raised a voice after reading the books that indeed Bohras were Muslim.

What I am seeing for the past couple of days is the same thing. Just like how the people asked 'literates' to review all the books of dawat, TF brought an American professor who isn't even muslim, does not understand the concept of taweel to review the doctrines of Islam. I read the paper that the professors' testimony did not help either side but did a great job in bringing insult to dawat because he misinterpreted a part of the book of which we still don't know the name, author or what section of the book was referenced.

The events of hadesa seem logical now. The only difference is dawat is stronger today and the leaders of the nation have got our back. Surely, the justice system is independent, and I hope it remains so. The whole idea that so many people are in dawat because they are forced or have no other option is so untrue. I agree there are a few but if they actually care about deen then they would have converted already. They don't like the insistence in dawat of living according to shariat, they like trimming beard and going out without purdah. At the end these are the people who will be rejoiced if TF wins because it would mean no more fmb hoob, no more niyaz and above all no more kothar. Majority of bohras who care about the deen will surely stay with the true dai of Imam until dawat claims back what was its. It has happened before and it can surely happen again.
Only someone uninformed would contend that scholars who study the Shi'ism do not know about taweel - this is a well-known, long established concept and there are numerous treatises going back centuries which examine the esoteric meanings of the Quran and various Ismaili texts. Hidden/esoteric meanings are just that, very different from factually incorrect gibberish. The pseudo-intellectuals of Al Jameatus Saifiyah are not the only ones who study these texts: even though they would like you & me to think that they alone have the intellectual capacity to do so.

What we do know, for a fact, is that Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin's book of doctrine states that one of the Prophet's grandsons, nauzobillah, killed the other. And that the 5th Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq appointed his son Musa Kazim as his successor to the Imamate after the 6th Imam Ismail passed away during Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq's lifetime. When you pray taqarrub after namaz whose name do you take after Imam Jafer-us-Safiq... Imam Ismail or Musa Kazim?

Someone else said this book "could be kept as a cautionary tale of how people can write anything, literally any rubbish". And the sad corollary is that many years later there comes along a scholar, a leader of a community, someone infallible, who believes it.

Well Qadir, you are entitled to views.
Last edited by ShabbirDoctor on Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RedBox
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2477

Unread post by RedBox » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:36 pm

I was in surat yesterday and I felt like I was in some Jewish temple, long beards expensive clothes mean face and eyes, and all thinking only they know the truth of Islam.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2478

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:05 am

I wonder if this material should be added to the Wikipedia page related to the court case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/53rd_Syed ... wart_(PW3)

The udaipurtimes article should be referenced, and then an appropriately worded paragraph can be put along the lines of what has been discussed here. Also, the other critical Q&A from the udaipur times article can be inserted too.

This issue of using this book to justify the nass is outrageous. However, the Udaipur Times article also has several other fairly relevant Q&A, which have not even been mentioned on this forum.

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2479

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:46 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:05 am
I wonder if this material should be added to the Wikipedia page related to the court case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/53rd_Syed ... wart_(PW3)

The udaipurtimes article should be referenced, and then an appropriately worded paragraph can be put along the lines of what has been discussed here. Also, the other critical Q&A from the udaipur times article can be inserted too.

This issue of using this book to justify the nass is outrageous. However, the Udaipur Times article also has several other fairly relevant Q&A, which have not even been mentioned on this forum.
Glad to see you talk of action DCP. If you keep this up you may deserve to change your name to Boti Kabab.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2480

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:26 pm

Can somebody clarify what it means that a nass can be done in private without any witness?

Specifically, does it mean it can be done in private (without witness) on ANYBODY, or, only on the #2 person ( the mazoom)?

I mean, what if 5 people say that it was done in private on them, and if that is the only requirement, how does one know who is correct and who is wrong?

Is something else required ?

------------------------ from the Udaipur Times article --------------------

Question (Iqbal Chagla): Is it your considered opinion and position that a Nass may be validly conferred with the recipient being the only witness (in addition to the person conferring the Nass), i.e. without a requirement of others or outsiders to the conferment?

Answer (Stewart): Yes
------------------------------------------------
Question (Justice Patel): Is correct that to be valid, Nass must be unambiguous as to the identity of the successor and is that the only requirement?

Answer (Stewart): Yes, That is True.
------------------------------------------------
Question (Justice Patel): If the way a successor is pointed out is unimportant as long as the identity is clear?

Answer (Stewart): Yes

mustafazr
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2481

Unread post by mustafazr » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:21 am

The doctrine is that private nass is a valid form of nass, the Imam (and in satr, the Dai) have the authority to do so if they deem it appropriate. In a case where multiple claims of private nass exist, each would have to be individually analyzed and given weight per their authority. Regardless, that is not the case here. In our instance, Qutbuddin Aqa RA has stated that private nass was conferred on him, he (as Mazoon at the time) is already the highest authority after the Dai and those against him are claiming that private nass is not a valid form of nass. Thus the arguments in court are to prove their point as false.

malgudidays
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:47 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2482

Unread post by malgudidays » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:09 pm

ShabbirDoctor wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:57 pm
Qadir wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:53 am
If this book was in dawat for a long time then all the dai have read it and have saved it. Making a claim that this unnamed book which we don’t know who the author is and some professor doesn’t consider it credible, is the reason dawat is wrong, then maybe you should consider yourself calling a Bohra.
I would definitely not consider a book credible if it says that Imam killed another Imam, but we have to hear from the other side as well. If that book was written before Mufaddal Moula then even TF should come to its defense because he also claims to hold the same position as previous dais who defended that book.
I would like to know the name of the book atleast and who wrote it. If the professor understood dawat so well and has read all the books of dawat, why didn’t he convert? I think its because he does not understand it fully and properly
Qadir - The book was written in the year 517 AH (1123 AD) and is called "The fall of the lightning of humiliation" - there are no reliable manuscripts in existence because the book has been revised so many times by so many people over the last 900 years since it was written.

It is the trustworthiness of Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin and his book that is in question. The point is that the book he presented to the court is so corrupted (saying, nauzobillah, that one of the Prophet's beloved Grandsons killed the other) that whatever else has survived is completely suspect and unreliable. And now Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin is using this book as a supposedly unimpeachable statement of doctrine issued by the Imam.

Sure thing Qadir, I guess you don't even 1% doubt any of the senseless things that Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin is saying in court such as that the 18th Imam Al-Mustansir Billah, appointed first Nizar, secondly Abdullah and lastly Imam Mustaali as his successor. Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin claims to be infallible himself, but apparently it took Imam Mustansir three tries to get it right!

What nonsensical statement will Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin make next? That the 5th Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq appointed Musa Kazim as his successor after the 6th Imam Ismail passed away during Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq's lifetime? Oh sorry, he already did!

The Book Iqa Sawa'iqa al-irgham'(the fall of the lightning of humiliation) is an appendix to al hidayat al amiriyya... and it does not say that Imam Husain Killed Imam Hasan(Niyazobillah) but rather mentions that there were people who were of this opinion and then goes on to refute this claim....

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2483

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:15 pm

malgudidays wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:09 pm
ShabbirDoctor wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:57 pm


Qadir - The book was written in the year 517 AH (1123 AD) and is called "The fall of the lightning of humiliation" - there are no reliable manuscripts in existence because the book has been revised so many times by so many people over the last 900 years since it was written.

It is the trustworthiness of Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin and his book that is in question. The point is that the book he presented to the court is so corrupted (saying, nauzobillah, that one of the Prophet's beloved Grandsons killed the other) that whatever else has survived is completely suspect and unreliable. And now Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin is using this book as a supposedly unimpeachable statement of doctrine issued by the Imam.

Sure thing Qadir, I guess you don't even 1% doubt any of the senseless things that Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin is saying in court such as that the 18th Imam Al-Mustansir Billah, appointed first Nizar, secondly Abdullah and lastly Imam Mustaali as his successor. Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin claims to be infallible himself, but apparently it took Imam Mustansir three tries to get it right!

What nonsensical statement will Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin make next? That the 5th Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq appointed Musa Kazim as his successor after the 6th Imam Ismail passed away during Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq's lifetime? Oh sorry, he already did!

The Book Iqa Sawa'iqa al-irgham'(the fall of the lightning of humiliation) is an appendix to al hidayat al amiriyya... and it does not say that Imam Husain Killed Imam Hasan(Niyazobillah) but rather mentions that there were people who were of this opinion and then goes on to refute this claim....
Yes and professor stewarts point was that to claim that the Nizaris would believe such a thing renders the book as a non-credible source.

malgudidays
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:47 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2484

Unread post by malgudidays » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:40 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:15 pm
malgudidays wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:09 pm



The Book Iqa Sawa'iqa al-irgham'(the fall of the lightning of humiliation) is an appendix to al hidayat al amiriyya... and it does not say that Imam Husain Killed Imam Hasan(Niyazobillah) but rather mentions that there were people who were of this opinion and then goes on to refute this claim...
Yes and professor stewarts point was that to claim that the Nizaris would believe such a thing renders the book as a non-credible source.
Well, Seems like Professor missed the point by a long shot.

Time to hold Thanewale baba accountable, because, Iqa Sawa'iqa al-irgham was written by Imam Aamir alayhis'Salaam as a refutation to the refutation of Hidayata Amiriyya by Nizari Dai's in Syria... to address the Mustali-Nizari Schism...

Should not Taher Qutbuddin/Fakhruddin who claims to be the representative of the Imam from the progeny of Imam Amir---Imam Al Tayyab
apologize or at least condemn the blasphemous statement made by his witness, that this refutation by Imam Amir alayhis'salaam is preposterous and non-credible?

FYR

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/17927
Last edited by malgudidays on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2485

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:49 pm

malgudidays wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:40 pm
objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:15 pm

Yes and professor stewarts point was that to claim that the Nizaris would believe such a thing renders the book as a non-credible source.
Well, Seems like Professor missed the point by a long shot.

Time to hold Thanewale baba accountable, because, Iqa Sawa'iqa al-irgham was written by Imam Aamir alayhis'Salaam as a refutation to the refutation of Hidayata Amiriyya by Nizari Dai's in Syria... to address the Mustali-Nizari Schism...

Should not Taher Qutbuddin/Fakhruddin who claims to be the representative of the Imam from the progeny of Imam Amir---Imam Al Tayyab
apologize or at least condone the blasphemous statement made by his witness, that this refutation by Imam Amir alayhis'salaam is preposterous and non-credible?

FYR

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/17927
The Colombowala dhongi’s lackey is now engaging in a deception about what was called non-credible in the court of law. Did the Faiz of the dhongi baba not reach you in time in court to raise this point or is it just that you are being so deceptive about the authorship of this ridiculous claim that the imam makes mistakes and hence needs to change his nass, that it would not be allowed in court? Which one is it? Could it be both?

malgudidays
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:47 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2486

Unread post by malgudidays » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:55 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:49 pm
malgudidays wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:40 pm


Well, Seems like Professor missed the point by a long shot.

Time to hold Thanewale baba accountable, because, Iqa Sawa'iqa al-irgham was written by Imam Aamir alayhis'Salaam as a refutation to the refutation of Hidayata Amiriyya by Nizari Dai's in Syria... to address the Mustali-Nizari Schism...

Should not Taher Qutbuddin/Fakhruddin who claims to be the representative of the Imam from the progeny of Imam Amir---Imam Al Tayyab
apologize or at least condone the blasphemous statement made by his witness, that this refutation by Imam Amir alayhis'salaam is preposterous and non-credible?

FYR

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/17927
The Colombowala dhongi’s lackey is now engaging in a deception about what was called non-credible in the court of law. Did the Faiz of the dhongi baba not reach you in time in court to raise this point or is it just that you are being so deceptive about the authorship of this ridiculous claim that the imam makes mistakes and hence needs to change his nass, that it would not be allowed in court? Which one is it? Could it be both?
The Colombowala dhongi’s lackey is now engaging in a deception about what was called non-credible in the court of law
--> You are assuming too much.

Did the Faiz of the dhongi baba not reach you in time in court to raise this point
--> Unfortunately, I am not part of the legal proceedings.
But the way you are riled up, it seems you are getting plenty of faiz from the Wolf of the Thane Street :D

Is it just that you are being so deceptive about the authorship of this ridiculous claim that the imam makes mistakes and hence needs to change his nass

--> It seems you have thing for the word deceptive, anyways, why don't you refer to Poonawala's or Farhad Daftary's catalogue of Ismaili literature.... I am sure you will find this risala mentioned in their... read the whole risala first, don't cherry pick things.....

that it would not be allowed in court? Which one is it? Could it be both?

---> Honestly, you lost me here... I can't make sense of what you are saying anymore... I do not even know the status of this evidence in the court of law, in terms of whether it got rejected or accepted.... I just saw bunch of folks talking about this issue on this forum, then I dug deeper and shared what I found... not everyone here is on payroll of either side...

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2487

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:32 am

malgudidays wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:55 pm

that it would not be allowed in court? Which one is it? Could it be both?

---> Honestly, you lost me here... I can't make sense of what you are saying anymore... I do not even know the status of this evidence in the court of law, in terms of whether it got rejected or accepted.... I just saw bunch of folks talking about this issue on this forum, then I dug deeper and shared what I found... not everyone here is on payroll of either side...
I agree with him. Looks like he just asked a question. If you don't know, say that you don't know the details.

Don't accuse him of being somebody's agent. That is not the way that FD will make its case, or make itself more credible. I understand that you are speaking in your personal capacity, but still ... No need to call him an MS agent.

Qadir
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2488

Unread post by Qadir » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:52 am

Qadir wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:47 pm
Crater Lake wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:54 pm


Qadir read a little history before you exhibit your ignorance here. Syedna Dawood bin Qutub Shah, because of who we are called Dawoodi Bohras has hiked Suleiman to Akbar’s court and it took him three years of a legal battle before he was declared rightful Dai! So yes a dai in history has had to fight a legal battle in order to win his rights! And do you think that dawat would sanction ANY kitaab which claimed that one imaam killed another?! You are a bigger moron than I thought.
Sulaiman did the case and Akbar summoned Syedna Dawood to Lahore. Get your facts straight.

Also, I don’t believe that Imam Hasan or Imam Husain had any role in each others martyrdom. It’s preposterous to even say that. I’m only trying to say that I don’t consider the news article to be a credible source for the fact because they did not mention what book and what exactly did the prof say. Also, the professor might not have mentioned the exact reference of the book.

I can also say that I don’t consider Ikhwan us Safa to be a credible source because it mentions that sun revolves around the earth. But i know that there is taweel behind the book and I don’t have the complete knowledge to understand what it means. Maybe that sentence has nothing to do with physics.
I said it first.
Thanks malgudidays.

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2489

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:30 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:32 am
malgudidays wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:55 pm

that it would not be allowed in court? Which one is it? Could it be both?

---> Honestly, you lost me here... I can't make sense of what you are saying anymore... I do not even know the status of this evidence in the court of law, in terms of whether it got rejected or accepted.... I just saw bunch of folks talking about this issue on this forum, then I dug deeper and shared what I found... not everyone here is on payroll of either side...
I agree with him. Looks like he just asked a question. If you don't know, say that you don't know the details.

Don't accuse him of being somebody's agent...I understand that you are speaking in your personal capacity, but still ... No need to call him an MS agent.
You are kidding right DCP? Read his post again....that kind of language only originates from those who have drunk the koolaid.

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2490

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:51 am

malgudidays wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:55 pm
objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:49 pm


The Colombowala dhongi’s lackey is now engaging in a deception about what was called non-credible in the court of law. Did the Faiz of the dhongi baba not reach you in time in court to raise this point or is it just that you are being so deceptive about the authorship of this ridiculous claim that the imam makes mistakes and hence needs to change his nass, that it would not be allowed in court? Which one is it? Could it be both?
The Colombowala dhongi’s lackey is now engaging in a deception about what was called non-credible in the court of law
--> You are assuming too much.

Did the Faiz of the dhongi baba not reach you in time in court to raise this point
--> Unfortunately, I am not part of the legal proceedings.
But the way you are riled up, it seems you are getting plenty of faiz from the Wolf of the Thane Street :D

Is it just that you are being so deceptive about the authorship of this ridiculous claim that the imam makes mistakes and hence needs to change his nass

--> It seems you have thing for the word deceptive, anyways, why don't you refer to Poonawala's or Farhad Daftary's catalogue of Ismaili literature.... I am sure you will find this risala mentioned in their... read the whole risala first, don't cherry pick things.....

that it would not be allowed in court? Which one is it? Could it be both?

---> Honestly, you lost me here... I can't make sense of what you are saying anymore... I do not even know the status of this evidence in the court of law, in terms of whether it got rejected or accepted.... I just saw bunch of folks talking about this issue on this forum, then I dug deeper and shared what I found... not everyone here is on payroll of either side...
Based on your answers, I think you understood me perfectly. Your belief is that your “dai” is infallible but your imam takes a few attempts to get his nass right. At least that’s what your “dai” is claiming in court. Also, what’s Thane Street? You lost me there...
Last edited by objectiveobserver53 on Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.