Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

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SBM
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Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#1

Unread post by SBM » Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:31 pm

Salaams
I get this question a lot from different Muslim friends (definitely non Bohras), if we follow Lunar calendar then why is that Ramadan for Bohras is always 30 days, why not 29 days once in a while.
Please serious answers only as this is a very valid question even Jaffria followers do 29 days of Ramadan based on moon sighting. (NO JOKES THAT MIYA BHAI DO NOT WANT TO FAST 30 DAYS)

pro_pig
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#2

Unread post by pro_pig » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:18 am

just follow muslim country or miyabhai or if you wanna want to do 30 just follow hijri calendar.

porus
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#3

Unread post by porus » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:16 am

Bohras follow Misri Calendar, which is based on the actual calculation of the new moon, whether visible or not.

For instance, the new moon this year will be on 11 September at 12:44 UTC. Therefore Bohras will observe the first day of Ramadan on 12 September.

The new moon will not be visible on 11 September anywhere on Earth. So the first time the moon will be visible will be on 12 September. So, Muslims who insist on physically seeing the moon will observe the first day of Ramadan on 13 September.

So, Muslims, except Bohras, are one day late according to astronomical calculations.

Because Lunar cycles are not precisely equal to 29 days, intercalations (adjustments to calendar days) are made in Misri calendar once in a while by extending Zilhaj by 1 day to 30 days. Zilhaj is normally 29 days.

In this instance Bohras are advanced compared to the rest of the Muslims. Islamic Shura Council of North America, I believe, has recommended that Muslims adopt a fixed calendar like Bohras. Whether they will accept the recommedation remains to be seen.

http://moonsighting.com/

SBM
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#4

Unread post by SBM » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:09 pm

Dear Porus
Here are two dates for Ramadan in USA
This one from submission.org
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ramadan will begin on September 12, 2007 for all of the United States, God willing. The last day of Ramadan will be October 11, 2007 for all of USA. To verify your city's first day of Ramadan, check on the time of the sunset and the time of the birth of the New Moon at the USA Naval Observatory. If the new moon is born before the sunset you will fast next morning for the first day of fasting. To convert the Universal time to your local time, please click here. Night of Destiny, starts at the sunset of October 7, 2007.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and the following from Fiqh council of USA
*************************************************
On the basis of this new position the dates of Ramadan and Eidul Fitr for this year are as follows:

1st of Ramadan will be on Thursday, September 13, 2007
1st of Shawwal will be on Saturday, October 13, 2007
****************************************************
But still based on Lunar calender one still cannot have a fixed days in a month year after year.

porus
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#5

Unread post by porus » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:39 pm

submission.org, like Bohras who follow Misri calendar, apparently are not concerned with the sighting (physically by humans) of the moon. Therefore they follow calculation.

Fiqh Council insistes on physical observation and therefore, for them, Ramadan starts a day later.

The above is consistent with my previous post.

The number of days in a Lunar month of course varies year to year. That is because 'day' is a Solar measure. And Lunar 'month' is, well, a Lunar measure.

Once in many, many years, based on calculation alone, Ramadan will have 29 days. In that year, adjustment will be made to the last day Zilhaj in
Misri calendar.

I think that the reason for this is that all the important (religious) dates of the calendar are predictable throughout the year.

If you remove the baggage of extremist thinkling that all should start on the same day, then both dates are ok.

I mean, Russian Orthodox community does not go to war with the Catholics because they celebrate Chritmas on different days. Only extremist Muslims insist on unity. They mean every one must follow them. That is precisely the reason why you should not follow them.

anajmi
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:53 pm

According to

http://kalender-365.de/lunar-calendar.php

Ramadan will have 29 days in 2009 and 2010 (I didn't check beyond that) and it had 29 days in 2004 (I didn't check beyond that). Scientifically, the month of ramadan has 29 days more frequently than "once in many many years".

Gulf
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#7

Unread post by Gulf » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:49 am

hello,
Why you people always struggling to resolve such dilemmatic questions??

best way for you to follow what bohra main stream does. Good Luck.

Just my $0.02

humble_servant_us
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#8

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:17 pm

Last year in the month of Ramzaan i posed the same question to an amil saheb who had visited us, but sorry to say he didn't have any logical answer for it. This is what i had asked him

"If we say we follow the moon, then as per the moon calculations it takes around 29.56 days for moon to complete a cycle. Based on this sometimes we have 29 days and sometimes 30 days. So how can we fix the days of a month in a year. There is a high probability that sometimes the month of ramzaan will be 29, so why do we fix it to 30 always."

He didn't answer this but told me that we are supposed to complete the fasts and here completion means 30 as 29 means incomplete similar to Quran which we read as 30 paras and not 29. And also he narrated a hadis from prophet(pbuh) that shabaan will never be complete and ramzaan will be never be incomplete".

With no further comments i think we are intelligent enough to decide what is right and wrong.

However if someone has a better answer pl. share..

Alislam
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#9

Unread post by Alislam » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:24 am

Following the fixed calender saves muslims from confusion.

Presently people in same country or sometimes even city will follow different eids.
Moon cannot be sighted physically due to many reasons.

Imagine, if today is friday and 23rd Ramadan.There will be confusion whether to pray jumatul vida or not.

when we see the clocks to pray at diff times of the day, then there should not be any problem in doing so with fasting.

Either you follow sun or the moon, there will be correction in form of leap year (sun) or adding a day (moon).

In a country like india or pakistan there will be eids on atleast three diff days and all this is due to the tradition of seeing the moon physically.

Muslim First
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#10

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:39 pm


As per moonsighting.com

The Astronomical New Moon is on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 at 12:44 Universal Time (i.e., 8:44 am EDT, and 5:44 am PDT ). This moon is impossible to be seen any where on September 11. On September 12, the moon will be sightable in Australia, South Africa, South America, and North America (e.g., in San Diego, CA at sunset, the age is over 44 hours, and moon is setting 35 minutes after sunset). Therefore, first day of Ramadan (fasting) in North America, is expected to be September 13, Insha-Allah. Sighting/nonsighting reports will be posted here as soon as they are available.
Methods of Beginning Islamic Months in Different Countries

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON MOON-SIGHTING
.

SBM
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#11

Unread post by SBM » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:25 pm

Seems like we Bohras are the only people around world who will start Ramadan on Wednesday. It looks that everyone else will start on Thursday.

pro_pig
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#12

Unread post by pro_pig » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:35 am

oma, u can start frm thrusday and went u start calling yourself bohra? thats intresting if asgar or insaf comes to know they will be mad. :mad:

profrog
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#13

Unread post by profrog » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:53 am

hey friend did you not know that omadonkey loves our food so whenever there is free food including sherullah he or she (don't know maybe both)becomes a stounch bohra so can eat our niaz free of charge and criticize later

profrog
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#14

Unread post by profrog » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:56 am

he or she(maybe both) will claim to pay sabil and be a part of bohras but inside (his or her)heart there is hatred and hypocracy

Gulf
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#15

Unread post by Gulf » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:15 am

Ha Ha Ha funny!

Oma what is your gender (both)???

profrog
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#16

Unread post by profrog » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:06 am

she/he is like dr jekyl and hyde she/he has both genders ,iblis was like that a big hypocrate with a sweet tongue i believe i have described most of the progs

jinx
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#17

Unread post by jinx » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:57 am

then as per the moon calculations it takes around 29.56 days for moon to complete a cycle. Based on this sometimes we have 29 days and sometimes 30 days. So how can we fix the days of a month in a year. There is a high probability that sometimes the month of ramzaan will be 29, so why do we fix it to 30 always.
This is exactly the point why we should not be fasting 30 days. The lunar month is not 30 days it is only 29.5 days. That is why we need to really calculate when is the birth of the new moon. Because fasting is done between fajar (dawn) to sunset - if the new moon is seen (birth) after dawn- you cannot backtrack and assume you should be fasting on that day.

porus
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#18

Unread post by porus » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:11 pm

This argument about the number of days in a lunar month is a symptom of schizophrenic Islam.

Month is from new moon to new moon. Instead of defining a day in "lunar" terms, they define it on the Sun. And the two (the sun and the moon) cycles have their own separate reckoning. Even God say that in 36:40.

Would it not be better to define a "day" in lunar terms also. How about defining a day from "high tide" to "high tide". Tides can be precisely related to the Lunar cycle. Then we can have fixed number of Lunar "Days" and new moon can be calculated. (We can still retain the prayer times on the basis of the Solar Day. And in polar locations where sun cycles are so very different from more equatorial locations, a lunar day will easily resolve the questions to Mullas about how long a a Ramadan roza should be. So, hands up all those who want to have a Lunar Day. We can organize a worldwide movement!)

That will still leave a problem of physically sighting the moon. Sometimetimes, new moon will not be visible, because the stupid sun will interfere with humna vision or because of the perversity of the lunar orbit which makes the moon invisible when it is new.

So the question is:

What is about physically sighting the moon that makes Muslims so 'backward and perverse"? Is it because there is enormous barakaat associated with it? Or is God going to throw them into hell if they did not "see" the moon before they started the month?

Oh, for the love of God!!

Muslim First
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#19

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:07 pm

.
That will still leave a problem of physically sighting the moon. Sometimetimes, new moon will not be visible, because the stupid sun will interfere with humna vision or because of the perversity of the lunar orbit which makes the moon invisible when it is new.
Prof. Porus;

If you do not know then you can always find ifo. and educate yourself.

Here, May be this will help you;

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON MOON-SIGHTING

Wasalaam
.

porus
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#20

Unread post by porus » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:40 pm

A couple of stupidities from the site that the pseudo-professor Muslim First recommended:

This time scale (UTC) is kept by time laboratories around the world, including the U.S. Naval Observatory, and is determined using highly precise atomic clocks.

UTC is a time scale? What a cod's wallop!! UTC is not determined by atomic clock. Standard Time duration is determined by the frequency of the Cesium atom. UTC is simply a reference for statting relative times.


"A conjunction occurs when the Moon passes between the Earth and the Sun; but because the Moon usually passes north or south of the Earth-Sun line, it specifically occurs when the Earth-Sun-Moon plane is perpendicular to the plane of Earth's orbit around the sun." This moment is called "New Moon Birth" or conjunction.

Does anyone understand this inanity. If one plane is made up of the sun and earth and how can there be another plane made up of the sun, moon and the earth? And how can this plane be perpendicular to it at the same time. Muslim Geometry?

pseudo-Prof Muslim First,

Did you read the site you recommended?

What did I say? I was pointing out the stupidity of mixing sun cycles and moon cycles for reckoning times. Yet that site does exactly the same thing. You have to learn first. Learn.

We no longer measure time by Sun Cycles. You ought to LEARN that. Time is defined by natural frequency of cesium atom.

What would happen if Muslims calculate the times of their space exploration by twisting times from sun and moon cycles. Muslims will discover their astraunots will find new worlds, which others will recognize as 7 th Century Arabia.

porus
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#21

Unread post by porus » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:45 pm

Actually, there are calendars that incorporate both Lunar and solar cycles known as LuniSolar Calendars. Hebrews and Buddhists have them. Something for Muslims to learn, pseudo-prof!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_moon

And do not forget:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar

Muslim First
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#22

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:34 am

We no longer measure time by Sun Cycles. You ought to LEARN that. Time is defined by natural frequency of cesium atom.
Yes Professor we measure time by natural frequency of cesium atom.

But we still perform prayers measured on appearance and disappearance of Sun.

Fajar between daybreak and sunrise
Zohr after mid noon
Asr at one shadow or two
Magrib after sunset and before dark
Ishaa after dark
.

porus
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#23

Unread post by porus » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:14 pm

In case you missed it, I wrote earlier in this thread:
We can still retain the prayer times on the basis of the Solar Day. And in polar locations where sun cycles are so very different from more equatorial locations, a lunar day will easily resolve the questions to Mullas about how long a a Ramadan roza should be.
So, what is your advice for those who live at the poles where sunrise and sunset do not occur. And you can move a few feet towards the equator and choose any time zone you wish. What are their prayer times?

One Mulla's answer: Only Kafirs live at the poles, so do not bother me with that question.


porus
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#25

Unread post by porus » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:03 pm

Only the very brave Muslims should settle in Fairbanks, Alaska. For there, fasting is between 17 and 23 hours. Let us leave the poles for Kafirs. Otherwise you end up fasting for 6 months.

Is that why we never had a Muslim set out to explore the polar regions?

jawanmardan
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#26

Unread post by jawanmardan » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:36 pm

Originally posted by porus:
Only the very brave Muslims should settle in Fairbanks, Alaska. For there, fasting is between 17 and 23 hours. Let us leave the poles for Kafirs. Otherwise you end up fasting for 6 months.

Is that why we never had a Muslim set out to explore the polar regions?
Well said Porus. However both logic and reason is haram I’m afraid.

On the question at hand, the Bohra calendar is based on Mathematical calculations dating from the Fatimid period, and not based on physically sighting the moon.

Be grateful there are at least two Eids every year here, I once witnessed three, or was it four?!? some years back.

humble_servant_us
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#27

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:53 am

jawanmardan
On the question at hand, the Bohra calendar is based on Mathematical calculations dating from the Fatimid period, and not based on physically sighting the moon.
If we agree that Bohra calender is based on Mathematical calculatons, now its just a matter of factto prove that these calculations are always correct.

Simple way to prove it is that every 1st night of the Bohra calender based month should coincide with the new moon night. If its so the calculations are correct but "if not" then there is some flaw in the calculations which should be looked into.

Muslim First
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#28

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:46 am

Well said Porus. However both logic and reason is haram I’m afraid.
Please explain in plain english.

Muslim First
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#29

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:10 am

.
"Gagarin" Ready for Space Ramadan

Sample
He is confident that Islam's flexibility could always help him if he found difficulties observing his religious duties in space.

"Of course if we can't do our responsibilities in space we're allowed to do it when we come back," he explained.

"Islam is very lenient."

After unveiling the plan of sending the first astronaut into space, Malaysian scholars and scientists spent the past year working on a guideline for Muslim astronauts.

It leaves it up to the astronauts to decide whether to fast Ramadan or make up for it after return.
.

Muslim First
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Re: Why Ramadan is always 30 DAYS

#30

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:12 am

JM
How about Zahiri meaning of your Batini
Well said Porus. However both logic and reason is haram I’m afraid.
.