Are you serving your objective? a serious question to all

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
here4truth
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 5:16 pm

Are you serving your objective? a serious question to all

#1

Unread post by here4truth » Thu May 22, 2014 5:56 pm

I have been visiting this forum recently to find some answers but reading the posts and looking at the vision for which progressive/reformist have been in war with mainstream since long time, I now don't see their objective anymore.

Progressive/reformist have started a more personal war against the mainstream criticising not only the system but individual members of the system and talking totally against individual rather than criticizing the system for which their objective was.

I even have seen many intruders who do not belong to the community but come here to have their evil time in criticizing one individual or to make fun about the rift going on in our community. If the outsiders believe in Allah and His messenger Prophet Muhammad then am sure they must be aware of the hadiths in which the Prophet have said that criticising ones practise is not permissible and not acceptable by Allah and His Messenger.

Anyways coming to my point what I actually want to say is that Progressive/Reformist main objective is or was to bring proper control over the system for instance abolishing raza system, accountability, elections of jamaat members etc. But in order to bring a change in the system you need to first accept the system.

I dont see the reformist accept MS as a new leader or dai of the system nor they favor KQ. So your point of reforms become invalid. Rather I see a new fraction or the third fraction who have their own ideology to follow.

So to conclude we have a mainstream which is led by MS as majority accepts him, then we have KQ who hold a very minority share and fighting for the power in courts (which is world power, essence of faith is lost) & lastly we have the third fraction who call themselves reformist but they are mainly criticizer of MS and KQ.

To be honest the third fraction does not want to accept both of them so therefore if any of them either the mainstream or KQ brings up any evidence I just see criticizing!

I would rather suggest that stop this forum of criticizing and making fun (to the level that vulgar words, name calling etc have been started) it looks very childish and is not a way to fight for your cause. Instead you are defaming yourself.

I know there are many senior reformist who have been fighting for their objective since years but since acting in this way is harming your image your objective your movement. Imagine if you are started calling as gh**** mohammed, sufi monkey, saifuddin insaap etc (sorry its just to show you how others read no personal grudges) so you see you all are just making fun of yourself

A request to admin to do his/her job by administrating this forum and see that this forum is used for the purpose it exist not for members of mainstream, KQ and reformist to come here and take out their aggression, make fun or attack on personal image of individuals.

This forum is a platform for a certain purpose so let the purpose be served. Any new person coming to this forum will be discouraged to read the kind of material being posted.

I know many of you will criticize but should have a valid point to argue.



SBM
Posts: 6198
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#2

Unread post by SBM » Thu May 22, 2014 6:09 pm

I would rather suggest that stop this forum of criticizing and making fun (to the level that vulgar words, name calling etc have been started) it looks very childish and is not a way to fight for your cause. Instead you are defaming yourself.
Please tell us which Dai do you follow and if you do follow SMS as it seems from your post can you please ask them to stop sending Laanaats on their own family members and stop lying to the world and specially Abdes
This forum is a free flow of debates and is not strictly monitored for its contents and is left on the members to use the etiquette and please do not
blame this forum and its administrators. Unlike Kothar controlled forums, this forum does allow people to express their frustrations specially all those die hard abdes who will constantly complain but will keep on doing the wrong thing like they do in fraternity houses of hazing. Abdes Bohras are great candidates for hazing and since Kothar and Dawoodi Bohra is a great Fraternity House why complain?
Disclaimer: I am no fan of SKQ either since for 50 years when he had the power, he did not say a word against the atrocities and in my view was an accomplice in what evils we have in the system.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#3

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu May 22, 2014 6:14 pm

here4truth wrote:criticising not only the system but individual members of the system
Bro here4truth,

Welcome to the forum.

The 'System' consists of 'Individuals' and is also run by individuals hence criticism are bound to be directed at individuals.
here4truth wrote:If the outsiders believe in Allah and His messenger Prophet Muhammad then am sure they must be aware of the hadiths in which the Prophet have said that criticising ones practise is not permissible and not acceptable by Allah and His Messenger.
There is difference between "Criticism" and "Creating awareness" and what you perceive as criticism is actually an exercise in creating awareness.



wise_guy
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:52 pm

#4

Unread post by wise_guy » Thu May 22, 2014 6:32 pm

Whatever be the case, contents from this forum is being circulated across the bohra world through whatsapp, emails and facebook. Awareness is being created. I guess, all are aware of the ills of the bohra society but is afraid of any revolt due to the ruthlessness of the Kothar and its machinery...



Rebel
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:42 pm

#5

Unread post by Rebel » Thu May 22, 2014 6:35 pm

@here4truth-But in order to bring a change in the system you need to first accept the system.

now where in the world this statement come from....you don't have to accept the system at all. The system is being corrupted to the core by the kothar and gang....no rational human being will accept this corrupt and exploitative system, the human beings are enslaved in this system, they are not even treated as humans but as ghulams by the kothar, the class system, oppression and subjugation, tax after tax so kothar can enjoy their lives, you want us to accept this system. I am not sane like you, sorry.



AgnosticTheist
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:36 am

#6

Unread post by AgnosticTheist » Fri May 23, 2014 4:33 am

Rebel wrote:@here4truth-But in order to bring a change in the system you need to first accept the system.

now where in the world this statement come from....you don't have to accept the system at all. The system is being corrupted to the core by the kothar and gang....no rational human being will accept this corrupt and exploitative system, the human beings are enslaved in this system, they are not even treated as humans but as ghulams by the kothar, the class system, oppression and subjugation, tax after tax so kothar can enjoy their lives, you want us to accept this system. I am not sane like you, sorry.
I believe he wanted to say "But in order to bring a change in the system you need to be in the system."



fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

#7

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Fri May 23, 2014 5:45 am

Considering from the Reformist P.O.V.
How can you be "IN THE SYSTEM" to bring the change? because if you are IN you have to accept all the things in the system and not then you are OUT. So bringing reform while remaining in the fold is not possible for them.

However reformist were once use to be in main stream and their fights against unislamic practices started while remaining in the system but because it was not acceptable by our corrupt kothar and thats the reason reformers are OUT (ex-communicated) from the system (Main stream Dawoodi Bohra).



salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

#8

Unread post by salaar » Fri May 23, 2014 7:48 am

I believe this forum now has very little to do with pro or anti bohra ideologies it has rather become a school for the tableegh of sunni and wahabi beliefs, these people are bent upon converting those bohras who are loosing their interest in the community for any reason, i honestly dont see any reform here, all the permanent and active members seems to take dictations from zakir naik and try to influence salafi ideologies, agree with me or not but THIS IS THE TRUTH.



bohra_manus
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

#9

Unread post by bohra_manus » Fri May 23, 2014 8:53 am

Welcome to the forum Br/Sis Here4Truth,
The reformists are out of the community not by their choice. Slightest attempt to ask even a rational question brands you as Munaafik or Dawat No Dushman and you are boycotted by the entire community, so you are automatically out of the community even if you wanted to stay within the community. This boycott (Barat) business has become stronger every passing day.
Unless the entire community wakes up and starts civil disobedience, it is unlikely that the system can be reformed from within.

Salaams.



Bohra spring
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

#10

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri May 23, 2014 10:02 am

I think we need to draw a line between missionary activity and a revolutionary movement.

Yes at times we are seen as assertive and aggressive . The intention is to expose the falsehood and deceit in our ideology especially in the last 100 years. The actions are to shock and awe .

Rather than blaming reformists for being too aggressive abde should ask whether what we are practicing is straying from truth, facts or opinion. The matter of fact it is real .so abdes should be ashamed that they have drifted away from mainstream islam . And stop worrying about mainstream bohra or what SMS wants. He is not a Muslim if he accepts shirk practised on him. This is in simple clear words written in the Quran and almost all Muslim accept this as a very clear line we should never cross.

Stop calling your self mainstream bohra , you may be many and majority but your are practising a heavily polluted ideology. You should be more concerned are you mainstream Muslims. If you are not and you think you are mumineen , then as Muslim reformists we are duty bound to expose your corrupt practises . You may want a bit of diplomacy soft soft approach. I think that has been tried previously but failed so it is time to try more aggressive actions to expose the filth.

The reformists have multiple prongs in the movement ...some are softer while some are harsh. There is a deliberate calibrated approach.



here4truth
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 5:16 pm

#11

Unread post by here4truth » Mon May 26, 2014 5:44 pm

I have been reading the posts and looking at your replys. First I would say that there is no gain at all. The actual reform movement which I was looking for is not there instead this place is more of taking out aggression on action taken by either of the party.

For reform one should first need to accept/be in/be part of the system. Let me give examples in Egypt reforms came because they were a part of that system and got frustrated similarly Morocco, Libya, Thailand and if want past examples than history of Britain, Subcontinent etc etc all clearly shows one thing that to revolt/reform/new change you first need to accept and be a part of it. Anyways its my personal viewpoint.

Secondly if its pointless to accept the system than if we call ourself muslim than as a muslim we should not be degrading or doing gheebat of one no matter if its our enemy. At least these are the basics which we are taught in schools/madrasah/waaz etc.

Let me give you my point of view about life. The concept of life which I see is that in order to live your life in this world you need to adopt to a system (any system) and that system will give you an identity through sets of belief to understand the concept of that system.

Now applying the above statement in reality... a person born in this world need to adopt a religion or no religion either one of the two. (Religion is our system)

"No religion" itself is a system where the person beliefs in science and practicality or evolution so basically science is your superpower or the book of your religion or call it whatever as it delivers you the answer to your question.

Now if you accept a religion than the four most commonly known religion is either you can accept is christianity, judaism, hinduism or ISLAM.

If you accept ISLAM as your religion than you should first know its meaning. ISLAM means to submit yourself in the will of Allah (you can google or refer to islamic books for more detail definition/meaning). Now submit to will of Allah means to submit everything what you have or you own. Zakat is a clear way to define that even you need to submit your wealth to Allah.

since you have accepted ISLAM and ready to submit yourself to will of AllAh than you need to follow the belief of islam which is all described in the holy book of Quran.

Now since Islam has many sub sects and confused that which sect is the one which beliefs in the true origin of Quran than lets make that problem also clear. Taking one ayat from Quran can clear this concept

Ayat number 59. Surah an Nisa (4)

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ أَطِيعُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِى ٱلۡأَمۡرِ مِنكُمۡ‌ۖ

59. O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad ), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority.


Now this argument is same like: "Mann kunto maula ho fa haza ali un maula ho" where different sect percieve different meaning of the word maula.

Similarly if you argue that the word "Ulil amr" refers to ulloma or islamic scholars than thats the viewpoint of a sunni and then follow and believe in Islam according to that sect

If you believe that word "Ulil amr" refers to Imam only than you follow the shia sect and believe in Islam according to their views

And if you believe that "Ulil amr" refers to Imam and Dai than you follow the bohra sect and believe in Islam as they instruct.

Remember at the beginning you accept ISLAM which means to submit yourself in the will of Allah and then Allah says that in order to submit to MY will you need to submit to Rasulallah and Imam and Dai (as per you translate the meaning of ayah)

So this now makes it very simple as what you want to follow and whom to follow. If the question is about which Dai to follow then again ask your heart and belief in the facts provided. If your heart says KQ's facts are convincing choose him or if MS's facts are convincing than belief in him. If you are believing the Dai then live your life as instructed.

Again this is totally my view point and as this is an open forum so am sharing my views. I am not constructing any argument or pinpointing any one here. Because its pointless to argue.

According to the posts which I have read it clearly shows that some just does not want to accept MS so in every amal of His they find a problem and want to make fun or argue about it baseless. Similarly who do not accept KQ his actions are defamed in the same manner.

Its just that the one who argue or disagrees doesn't want to accept than no matter how many facts will be provided there will be some flaw detected or made.

Its a human behaviour if you have a negative behaviour for someone than no matter how good that someone performs you will always see negative in it. You may try this with someone you love maybe your wife, your kids or your parents. Try to keep negative behaviour with them and see no matter whatever good they do will be seen wrong.

My whole point of telling you about concept of life, religion, ayat etc is just that keep an open mind about things. If you find the system is not performing how it needs to be than reform/revolt constructively. Not by pointing out some one individually and taking out the aggression. Fulfil the purpose of this forum do not use it to take out personal aggression.



natkhat pari
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 8:56 am

#12

Unread post by natkhat pari » Tue May 27, 2014 8:12 am

Sir i submit to you.
I want you to be my moula.
I want to give bait to you.
Do you take online misak