My view of the so called "progressives"

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

My view of the so called "progressives"

#1

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:11 am

I have not been around for too long over here but from what I have read do far, I have to comment in the do called progressives.

First up I am cross posting what I wrote in the Letter to KSA thread
Its funny ppl on this board curse the tyrrany of the Bohra clergy but are tyrranical in their own thoughts themselves.

Shameful they call themselves progressives. All they want is to stop believing the Dai & move towards an Islam propagated by the Wahabis. I don't follow any religion now but given a choice I would recommend current Bohra system than the barbaric Wahabism being propagated. At least its more civilized at the expense of some money.
I posted this in response to people wanting to complain to Human rights groups, journalists and (laughably) to the Saudis about the tyrrany in Bohra community.

While progressives and the other non Bohras bash the poor Abdes of being brainwashed, IMO these people who accused are brainwashed themselves from probably them being in Pakistan or Mid East or having their roots in such countries, into being attracted to the "puritanical" (read extremist) form of Islam. People brand each other kafir at the drop of the hat, talk about shirk etc in every manner possible closing down the options for a person to lead a good secular life. Find it funny that these people call Bohra leadership Talibanisque while they too are no different & in fact I find them worse off.

While I don't want broad brush everyone, but this is what I have seen. Its possible that many of these people are actually non Bohras masquerading as progressives.

Progressives are progressives only in name when it comes to their grouses against the Bohra leadership but are regressive in their thoughts otherwise. They talk about the "exclusivity" being propagated by the Bohras as in they are the only chosen ones but then the same people don't take a step back from showing other fellow humans from other communities in bad light, mocking their beliefs, mocking their Gods, mocking their culture. They hate the Bihra supremacist attitude while they harbor Islamic supremacist dealing themselves. Like I said earlier, its possible that this board is infested with Wahabis & Wahabi brainwashed Bohras from Pakistan,Mid East. I can expect no better from them.

I think the true progressives probably were the Sufis of India who got respected by one and all. I don't find anything progressive with anyone calling on people to go back to 7th century laws, using terms like Wajib up Qatl, heretic etc.

freebhora
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 5:49 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#2

Unread post by freebhora » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:02 am

I myself want to see the reform movement succeed but unfortunately the methods they are using is against prophetic method and hence they are bound to further ameliorate the situation and it has been proved over and over again. The PDB are now projected as dushman and Munafiq by abdes and they have valid reasons to say so , as they on one hand say that they believe in the daee as a leader , yet are not ready to accept the yoke it demands. The prophet pbuh was also a leader he , the sahabas used to sacrifice everything for him out of love of leader which is actually a good thing and recommended in Islam. Infact those who objected to the prophet in wealth distribution were considered as Munafiq by the sahabas and prophet themselves.

So if the problem is with the leader , stop showing false show of allegiance to the leader and rather present an alternative religious framework which is more grounded in scriptures rather than wanting to have a person like the daee as your rahbar. Remember the satan (daee)has used religion as a tool to decieve and control the abdes, hence its fair seeming to counter this influence by core foundation religion only , the PDBS have to come up with an alternative , with a complete revamp of bohra beliefs as evidenced from well accepted fundamental sources of Quran and Sunnah. Also remember and learn from the past failures as to how taher saifuddin managed to almost anihiliate the PB movement and even won the court case which is still being used as precedent in many cases. Taher saifuddin used religion to his advantage whereas PDBs only had sincere good intention with little religious grounding , they cornered taher saifuddin on flimsy and moot issues like working in bank,(which is indeed haram), barat etc, taher saifuddin had a doctrinal advantage on these issues which he managed to leverage and get a great deal of support. Infact I believe that PDB is the major reason for the glory and wealth of daee. The daee successfully turned the dissent into a support by gaining symphaties and using religious arguments to support his case which people tend to believe in.

Hence my recommendation as a sincere well wisher is to completely reject the daee, throw the self worn -yoke of submission to daee and declare this publicly , yet continue to give a RELIGIOUS alternative grounded in Quran and Sunnah to bohras to join you with active on field proseletyzation , for this you can even take help of people of Quran AND Sunnah which include salafis ,who would be ready to help you in your effort to bring Bohras to the Islam as practiced by Muhammad pbuh and his followers.

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#3

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:19 am

^^ You missed the point by a long way

true_abde
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:32 pm

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#4

Unread post by true_abde » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:23 am

progressives are ungrateful and delusional bunch of people whose job is to whine on everything happening in dawoodi bohra community.

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#5

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:07 am

true_abde wrote:progressives are ungrateful and delusional bunch of people whose job is to whine on everything happening in dawoodi bohra community.
Ungrateful about what? My OP is not in favor of the Bohra clergy but pointing out about the "progressives"

There is a lot of wrongs happening in the community which are pointed out, but I don't agree with some of the ideas presented here to right those wrongs. Its more like Aasman se gira khajoor mein atka

maxthemature
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:30 pm

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#6

Unread post by maxthemature » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:16 pm

Ppl left in this site are just wahabis sunnis and
Some shiyas who hate dawoodi bhoras out of
Pure jelousy of our progress wealth unity and
Most respected community around the globe!
Ppl like ghulam mohammed followers of the three shayateen
Are portraying to b dawoodi bhora and 24/7 cursing us
Time and again I m repeating this and won't b long
But will come up with some proof as well
There r very few reformist fools left now who like I said before are envelopes without any addresses....aint going anywhere!
Sooner the mumineen realise these peoples intentions....
Better it is for all! : )

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#7

Unread post by seeker110 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:33 am

Haramkhori is addicting, it shows.

Rebel
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:42 pm

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#8

Unread post by Rebel » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:20 am

true_abde wrote:progressives are ungrateful and delusional bunch of people whose job is to whine on everything happening in dawoodi bohra community.
The argument is not about who is progressive and who is not. People stood up against kothar and gang because of their deviant and twisted un-Islamic practices. The community people stood up against the injustice, inhuman treatment, subjugation.
People stood up against the inequality and class system even worse than the Hindu religion that has been formulated in the community. People stood up against the tyranny of the clergy and ponzi schemes made to extract and extort money from the community people. And these bhaisahebs created financial empire for themselves and their families from our hard earned money. People stood up against the discriminatory practices of the kothar among the class system. People stood up against the false religious practices and claims of paradise which with the clergy poisoned there mind. They hatred created by the clergy for other fellow Muslims instead of loving each other to create a better ummah.
The argument is about to breaking free from chains which kothar has wrapped around and stifling the community. The cruelty of clergy has no bounds. And naturally a man who considers himself as a God on earth will have no fear of Allah himself and greed for money which clergy has has deprived them of all humanity and conscience.
The problem is that somehow if you raise your voice against these injustice dictators these bhaisahebs will crush it by calling us dushmans because we are all skeptics unlike the most community people who live a life of delusion where Syedna, the god of oppression, will come to deliver these zombies to paradise regardless what they did in lives.

bohri
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:12 pm

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#9

Unread post by bohri » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:40 am

true_abde wrote:progressives are ungrateful and delusional bunch of people whose job is to whine on everything happening in dawoodi bohra community.
Actually, progressives have very little reasons to whine, because they are not subject to any practices that they do not truly believe in. The majority of contributors on this forum are knee deep in community affairs and practices, yet seem to resent doing the same. They use this forum to vent their frustrations. Progressives are lucky enough to practice their religion in a way that is acceptable to them at a price that is affordable for them. Their complaints are dealt within their communities. We are not the frustrated ones.

Sufi monk
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:34 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#10

Unread post by Sufi monk » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:08 am

maxthemature wrote:Ppl left in this site are just wahabis sunnis and
Some shiyas who hate dawoodi bhoras out of
Pure jelousy of our progress wealth unity and
Most respected community around the globe!

Ppl like ghulam mohammed followers of the three shayateen
Are portraying to b dawoodi bhora and 24/7 cursing us
Time and again I m repeating this and won't b long
But will come up with some proof as well
There r very few reformist fools left now who like I said before are envelopes without any addresses....aint going anywhere!
Sooner the mumineen realise these peoples intentions....
Better it is for all! : )
yes for sure every one is jealous of dawoodi bohras progresses :mrgreen: :roll:
Attachments
dc278461ef98e2334aedb05c13b52510.jpg

ammar
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:01 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#11

Unread post by ammar » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:33 am

just saw the photo.

Snow black and the seven dwarfs??

Bohra spring
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#12

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:58 pm

ammar wrote:just saw the photo.

Snow black and the seven dwarfs??
How dare you disrespect the elite crack commando unit and it's 53 star decorated general. They are armed with a rumal, musala hand patted on shoulder that can stop surface to surface missiles.

These men or elfs bring shiver in the reformists ranks ...I am scared and afraid !

Sorry could not help the laughter. These so called reformist critiques...can you start by sharing your contributions to Bohra betterment in kind or thought. Sure you may think we are drop in the ocean and of inconsequence.

Yet this site is full of evidences of the influence reformists have contributed from inheriting their buildings, influencing change , Saudi , Malaysia , Australia, your own 53 claimed in udaipur how angry he is by reformist actions , Canada inquiry, SKQ team met reformists , the recent ziyarat march which was success , cases in India , the censorship of ziafat publicity, I can go on on but that would be to easy for you to search this site and find. So next time do your homework before coming to the site to comment!

Dr Fatema
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:38 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#13

Unread post by Dr Fatema » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:46 am

Progressive movement was lauched with full zeal & enthusism of Udaipur Bohra Youth. Most of the Udaipuris were with this movement in begining. Lately this was hijacked by outsiders such as Asghar Ali Engineer, Insaf etc.. Movement lost its purpose & slowly became redundant. Most of the people who supported in begining found themselves disillusioned & return back to mainstream. This movement needs leadres who shows true leadership qualities for its survival.

canadian
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#14

Unread post by canadian » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:44 pm

Dr. Fatema:

Could you kindly explain to us as to how the Udaipuri progressive movement was "hijacked by Asghar Ali Engineer, S. Insaf, etc." If what you say is true, then the dai and the kothar should love these two gentlemen; instead why are they so viciously hated?

Thank you.

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#15

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:50 pm

I myself is a trigger happy guy and I am 100% sure I dont have 1% of the courage these two gentlemen . I also wish we had more of sister Zehra Cyclewalas.

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#16

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:37 pm

AgnosticIndian,
Perhaps you should read up little more about Bohra progressives, their history and their struggle. There is enough on this site and this Forum to give you a better understanding of who real progressives are and what do they want. The few ex-Bohras or non-Bohras who spout Wahhabi/Salafi sentiments here are neither Bohras nor progressive in any real sense. By calling them "progressive" and putting that word as a heading of this topic you do a great disservice to the refromist/progressive cause. I'm assuming you discovered this site only after the dispute over Daiship became public - that is only six months ago. In such a short time, it is very arrogant and pompous of you to give "your" misguided and misinformed view on progressives. The progressive movement has been around for decades and has involved great Bohra rebels - in India, Pakistan, East Africa and elsewhere. Noman Contractor, Ismail Poonawala, Ashgar Ali Engineer, Saifuddin Insaf are few who readily come to mind. The progressive agenda and objective is not about "religion" as such but the management and control of community affairs. But progressive cannot help talking about religion because the way it has been hijacked, distorted and perverted by the mafia clergy.

If you have read and understood from your time here, you should know that there are very few real/open progressives who come and contribute here. Most them are disgruntled and frustrated Bohras who find this Forum as a godsend and open their hearts and spleen. Some do it responsibly and some go off the handle depending on the anger and frustration they feel with the mafia clergy. And there are others, brainwashed salafis - who are no different from brainwashed abdes in their passion and bigotry - who come here to ply their own twisted agenda. To club them together with progressives is unfair and devious.

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#17

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:05 pm

Dr Fatema wrote:Progressive movement was lauched with full zeal & enthusism of Udaipur Bohra Youth. Most of the Udaipuris were with this movement in begining. Lately this was hijacked by outsiders such as Asghar Ali Engineer, Insaf etc.. Movement lost its purpose & slowly became redundant. Most of the people who supported in begining found themselves disillusioned & return back to mainstream. This movement needs leadres who shows true leadership qualities for its survival.
Dr Fatema is a troublemaker. She doesn't know zilch about the reform movement. I'm from Udaipur and I know the ground realities. The truth is, if not for Asghar Ali Engineer the reform movement which found a new breath of life after the udaipur rebellion would have remained confined to Udaipur and would have languished there unheard and unseen. It is Engineer sahab who brought it to the attention of the general public through the media and by aligning the cause of reformists with those of other oppressed sections of society. The leadership of Udaipur reformists has been, sad to say, very parochial and provincial. Engineer sahab had the vision, and the guts to work towards that vision. This is not to undermine the great courage and sacrifice the people of Udaipur have shown. Without their commitment and especially of their women the reform movement would have folded long back. As for Saifuddin Insaf, his courage and boldness you will not find in the contemporary Bohra world. He has challenged the great and mighty of the Kothar, and for more than 40 years has been editing and publishing The Bohra Chronicle with single-minded dedication. To accuse these two great stalwarts of "hijacking" the movement is plain ignorant. Pay no attention this woman.

If people have gone back it is because they couldn't face the heat, they were the people of weak commitment and went back for personal - and mostly petty - motives. The leadership in Udaipur now is doing great work, and holding on to our achievements and properties despite the daily onslaught of tricks and tactics that mafia clergy is employing to break the back of the movement. Yes, we can always do better but outsiders must understand the constraints and challenges and limitations we face on a daily basis.

To put it succinctly, Asghar Ali Engineer and the Udaipur reformists needed each other. History brought them together at an opportune time, and what they accomplished together could not have been accomplished individually.

tasneempati
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:44 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#18

Unread post by tasneempati » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:16 am

Better quote " 53 Star Commander-in-thief with 6 Jokers"
ammar wrote:just saw the photo.

Snow black and the seven dwarfs??

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#19

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:23 am

I signed up recently but not that I didnt know about the site.
I have lurked on and off out here.

My view based on what I see over here on ethers being posted.
And I stand by it as most of these people are not liberals and come across as facing supremacist attitude wrt other immunities ehile they despise the same attitude of Bohras who keep others away from mosque etc & also consider them inferior
Humsafar wrote:AgnosticIndian,
Perhaps you should read up little more about Bohra progressives, their history and their struggle. There is enough on this site and this Forum to give you a better understanding of who real progressives are and what do they want. The few ex-Bohras or non-Bohras who spout Wahhabi/Salafi sentiments here are neither Bohras nor progressive in any real sense. By calling them "progressive" and putting that word as a heading of this topic you do a great disservice to the refromist/progressive cause. I'm assuming you discovered this site only after the dispute over Daiship became public - that is only six months ago. In such a short time, it is very arrogant and pompous of you to give "your" misguided and misinformed view on progressives. The progressive movement has been around for decades and has involved great Bohra rebels - in India, Pakistan, East Africa and elsewhere. Noman Contractor, Ismail Poonawala, Ashgar Ali Engineer, Saifuddin Insaf are few who readily come to mind. The progressive agenda and objective is not about "religion" as such but the management and control of community affairs. But progressive cannot help talking about religion because the way it has been hijacked, distorted and perverted by the mafia clergy.

If you have read and understood from your time here, you should know that there are very few real/open progressives who come and contribute here. Most them are disgruntled and frustrated Bohras who find this Forum as a godsend and open their hearts and spleen. Some do it responsibly and some go off the handle depending on the anger and frustration they feel with the mafia clergy. And there are others, brainwashed salafis - who are no different from brainwashed abdes in their passion and bigotry - who come here to ply their own twisted agenda. To club them together with progressives is unfair and devious.

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#20

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:26 am

AgnosticIndian,
Either you did not read and/or did not understand my post. Yes these people are not liberal or reasonable etc. Whatever they may be they are not part of the "progressive" Bohra movement as you claim. And by lumping them with progressives you are misrepresenting the movement and insulting the faith and commitment of the people associated with it.

Dr Fatema
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:38 am

Re: My view of the so called "progressives"

#21

Unread post by Dr Fatema » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:02 am

Bro Humsafar
As you mentioned in your post "If people have gone back it is because they couldn't face the heat, they were the people of weak commitment and went back for personal - and mostly petty - motives. " This happens only when organisation has weak leadership . " If leaders can not convince the followers or masses then they are doomed to fail. By the way I am not troble maker, I simply put forward my opinion.
I fully agree with your observation that - "the leadership in Udaipur now is doing great work, and holding on to our achievements and properties despite the daily onslaught of tricks and tactics that mafia clergy is employing to break the back of the movement. I want outsiders to understand these lines "Yes, we can always do better but outsiders must understand the constraints and challenges and limitations we face on a daily basis."
Humsafar wrote:
Dr Fatema wrote:Progressive movement was lauched with full zeal & enthusism of Udaipur Bohra Youth. Most of the Udaipuris were with this movement in begining. Lately this was hijacked by outsiders such as Asghar Ali Engineer, Insaf etc.. Movement lost its purpose & slowly became redundant. Most of the people who supported in begining found themselves disillusioned & return back to mainstream. This movement needs leadres who shows true leadership qualities for its survival.
Dr Fatema is a troublemaker. She doesn't know zilch about the reform movement. I'm from Udaipur and I know the ground realities. The truth is, if not for Asghar Ali Engineer the reform movement which found a new breath of life after the udaipur rebellion would have remained confined to Udaipur and would have languished there unheard and unseen. It is Engineer sahab who brought it to the attention of the general public through the media and by aligning the cause of reformists with those of other oppressed sections of society. The leadership of Udaipur reformists has been, sad to say, very parochial and provincial. Engineer sahab had the vision, and the guts to work towards that vision. This is not to undermine the great courage and sacrifice the people of Udaipur have shown. Without their commitment and especially of their women the reform movement would have folded long back. As for Saifuddin Insaf, his courage and boldness you will not find in the contemporary Bohra world. He has challenged the great and mighty of the Kothar, and for more than 40 years has been editing and publishing The Bohra Chronicle with single-minded dedication. To accuse these two great stalwarts of "hijacking" the movement is plain ignorant. Pay no attention this woman.

If people have gone back it is because they couldn't face the heat, they were the people of weak commitment and went back for personal - and mostly petty - motives. The leadership in Udaipur now is doing great work, and holding on to our achievements and properties despite the daily onslaught of tricks and tactics that mafia clergy is employing to break the back of the movement. Yes, we can always do better but outsiders must understand the constraints and challenges and limitations we face on a daily basis.

To put it succinctly, Asghar Ali Engineer and the Udaipur reformists needed each other. History brought them together at an opportune time, and what they accomplished together could not have been accomplished individually.