Why you call yourself Progressive Dawoodi Bohras

[Bohra_Bhai]

I want to know why you all call yourself Progressive Dawoodi Bohras, and create a separate identity for yourself.

[SBM]

I want to know why you all call yourself Progressive Dawoodi Bohras, and create a separate identity for yourself.

Just like they Muffi Bohra and Qutbi Bohra, Can you tell us which Bohra are you?

[Dr Fatema]

Right now unfortunately we progressive dont have a leader who can be looked upon and who can guide us.

[DB5253]

Progressive can never have leader.

[Admin]

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/about_us/our-mission/

We are Dawoodi Bohras, and are referred to as reformists or progressives because of our struggle to bring social reforms in the community. We accept the religious authority and staus of the Dai. What we challenge is the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.

[think_for_yourself]

You accept the religious authority of which Dai?

[seeker110]

The dai that sits on the floor, but when speaking to majlis, on member. Walks everywhere,works everyday to earn an honest living. Knowledgeable in deen and dunya. Live's like Ali,and is brave like Abbas Alamdar.

[think_for_yourself]

The dai that sits on the floor, but when speaking to majlis, on member. Walks everywhere,works everyday to earn an honest living. Knowledgeable in deen and dunya. Live's like Ali,and is brave like Abbas Alamdar.

Does he have a name or is he your imaginary friend? Seeing the abuse of SMB and STS on this site - dais loved and revered by most bohras, I cannot believe this definition of Progressives. I am suspecting progressives don't want to believe in much more than dal chawal palidu, eating in thaal and cracking Dai jokes. They seem to be objecting to SKQ, a humble, pious man who actually does make his own living because he attended ziyafats that were hosted by people of their own accord. Seems a flaky stance.

[think_for_yourself]

And sure enough, that is their prerogative but they should change the definition then.

[Humsafar]

The words "progressive" "reformist" are about social aspects of our community. As explained and documented umpteen times on this Forum and elsewhere, it should be clear what reforms and progress we are fighting for. That is why we call ourselves "progressive" Dawoodi Bohras. People who have any knowledge of Bohra history that goes beyond the worship of the Dai would know that the reform movement started almost a century ago and at that time the small and scattered group of rebel Bohras called themselves "Pragarti Mandal", and later in the Sixties they came to be known as "pragratiwaadi" Bohras. Progressive and reformist are the English translation of those terms, and continuation of the same struggle. We reformists do not consider ourselves as a "separate" community, and use the terms to emphasise our social agenda. Within the community there are many progressive minded Bohras who are our natural allies and who come here to have their say. It is the Kohtar and its devotees who have a vested interest in labeling us as a separate entity.

[Humsafar]

You accept the religious authority of which Dai?

We accept the religious authority of the Dai appointed by the authority of the hidden Imam.
In case of dispute over the 53rd Dai, the onus is not the believers to choose their Dai. If they do then they are unwittingly negating the role of the Imam and thus undermining the whole doctrine of Imamat. Choose your dai or let go of the Imam. You can't have both.

I am suspecting progressives don't want to believe in much more than dal chawal palidu, eating in thaal and cracking Dai jokes.

And you base your suspicion on what? Instead of being flippant try to understand a little bit about the history of reform movement, what it stands for and what it has achieved.

They seem to be objecting to SKQ, a humble, pious man who actually does make his own living because he attended ziyafats that were hosted by people of their own accord. Seems a flaky stance.

We're neither objecting to SKQ or SMS, we're saying that this dispute is not for Bohras to resolve. As I said above, if you do then you get into doctrinal difficulties. As for SKQ being humble and pious and all that, you speak like a devotee. For those who take a detached view of things, SKQ is guilty of standing on the sidelines for 50 years and allowing the Dawat to become a tyrannical, heartless, greedy mafia enterprise. He is guilty of allowing the Dawat whose Mazoon he was to harass, humiliate, exploit and rob Bohras. Now he seems to have found love and compassion for Bohras. His claims to piety and humility ring hollow. What is flaky, and naive, I might add, is your stance.

[Humsafar]

The dai that sits on the floor, but when speaking to majlis, on member. Walks everywhere,works everyday to earn an honest living. Knowledgeable in deen and dunya. Live's like Ali,and is brave like Abbas Alamdar.

Does he have a name or is he your imaginary friend?

Instead of mocking seeker110, try to understand what he is trying to say. He's pointing out what a real, honest Dai - true to his salt and his calling - should be. The Dais these days are an insult to the legacy and memory of Ahle Bayt in whose name they preach. Have they no shame?

[think_for_yourself]

My sincere apologies to Seeker110. He did not deserve to be mocked (especially in this month) even though he appeared as though he was avoiding a direct answer.

We who are with SKQ have not chosen the Dai. We simply have reason to believe that he was Burhanuddin Moula RA choice - made with the ilhaam of imam uz zaman. His intense mentoring by Syedna Taher Saifuddin makes him well equipped to lead us on Sirat e mustaqeem especially in comparison to the alternative. That is not doctrinally inconsistent. I am certainly not a "devotee" of SKQ. It seems an odd word to use for a mumin. My claims of piety and humility for SKQ arise not from "devotion" but from observation. I am sorry that you think that he allowed kothar to run riot. It is possible that the excesses continued despite his efforts to stop them, given the power of the shehzada machinery.
If your interest is in the reformation of the administration while acknowledging the religious authority of the Dai, our interests may be better aligned than you may think. It may involve a deeper dialogue than perhaps has been conducted so far. Latching on to perceived icons of oppression such as ziyafats (when in fact all it is is an invitation to a meal in the best traditions of hospitality) does not serve anyone's purpose.

[seeker110]

Syedna Tahir Saifuddin had 24 children. He did not work and earn to support his family. All the wealth he had belonged to the poor, yateem and miskeen. I have seen him take money from the poor children in my neighborhood (Rs 2 in salam) in Adam Masjid, Karachi. He would give out small ladies size rumal. This went a like a high RPM motor. He took money from the rich alike. He destroyed anybody that served the poor. He hated anybody that was educated in deen and dunya. He raised his family with this haram income. None of his children or the children of his children has eaten halal.

24 kids to take care, my father had to work one full time job and two part time gigs to support his family of 3 children. You haramkhores are pushing the community to select one from this blood line. You are the scum on earth. These children of syedna will all fight for haram money and income all their live's. There will not be any peace in their family.
Stop selling us damaged goods.

[think_for_yourself]

Why don't you run for Dai Seeker. You seem to know what is best for your community and to lead and guide them. Not mocking. It looks like that is what you guys want. Good luck and more power to you!

[ghulam muhammed]

Syedna Tahir Saifuddin had 24 children. He did not work and earn to support his family. All the wealth he had belonged to the poor, yateem and miskeen. I have seen him take money from the poor children in my neighborhood (Rs 2 in salam) in Adam Masjid, Karachi. He would give out small ladies size rumal. This went a like a high RPM motor. He took money from the rich alike. He destroyed anybody that served the poor. He hated anybody that was educated in deen and dunya. He raised his family with this haram income. None of his children or the children of his children has eaten halal.

24 kids to take care, my father had to work one full time job and two part time gigs to support his family of 3 children. You haramkhores are pushing the community to select one from this blood line. You are the scum on earth. These children of syedna will all fight for haram money and income all their live's. There will not be any peace in their family. Stop selling us damaged goods.

[Humsafar]

We who are with SKQ have not chosen the Dai. We simply have reason to believe that he was Burhanuddin Moula RA choice - made with the ilhaam of imam uz zaman.

In other words you have made a choice. Without concrete proof your reasons have as much validity as the other side.

His intense mentoring by Syedna Taher Saifuddin makes him well equipped to lead us on Sirat e mustaqeem especially in comparison to the alternative. That is not doctrinally inconsistent.

We all know, and again it's well documented, that the rot in the Dawat started with Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. No thinking person can say with a straight face that his mentoring would equip someone to lead us on sirat al mustaqeem. It's like expecting a mafia boss to teach his son to become a morally upright citizen. Yet, I would admit SKQ is not shrewd and cunning like his father, but that does not absolve him from his role in serving a corrupt system. When you choose a Dai, for whatever reason, you negate the role of the Imam - and that in effect means your doctrine of Imamat goes out the window. Your act is not consistent with your belief.

I am certainly not a "devotee" of SKQ. It seems an odd word to use for a mumin. My claims of piety and humility for SKQ arise not from "devotion" but from observation. I am sorry that you think that he allowed kothar to run riot. It is possible that the excesses continued despite his efforts to stop them, given the power of the shehzada machinery.

Despite his efforts? What efforts? You're dealing in conjectures and speculation here. As a mazoon he had a responsibility to the Dawat and the people. He should have raised hell against the "shehzada machinery" but no, he was biding his time, waiting for his brother to die to claim ownership of the same corrupt machinery.

If your interest is in the reformation of the administration while acknowledging the religious authority of the Dai, our interests may be better aligned than you may think. It may involve a deeper dialogue than perhaps has been conducted so far.

Yes dialogue of any kind and at any level is welcome. The PDB have officially approached the SQ camp, and the first thing we were told is that once you accept him as a Dai you can't question him. That is a preposterous position to take when starting a dialogue. This sense of arrogance and power reminds us of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. Like father, lie son. They are cut from the same cloth.

Latching on to perceived icons of oppression such as ziyafats (when in fact all it is is an invitation to a meal in the best traditions of hospitality) does not serve anyone's purpose.

Ziyafat is the least of our worries. The exploitation and oppression of people is widespread and systemic and systematic. Forced payment of wajebat and hundreds of other taxes, the fear of ex-communication and chitthi band, the lavish lifestyle of the "royal family" built on the backs of Bohras, and worst of all the sense of entitlement - including that of the SQ camp - as if the "royal family" has some divine right to rule the Bohras and screw them any which way they can.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Bhai Humsafar, Seeker 110, and others in the reform movement ..

I understand that implicitly SKQ has to be responsible for what has gone on for the past 50 years as he was the mazoom for the past 50 years. And I understand as you and others (Bohra85 ??, on another thread) have mentioned that you all were ex-communicated about 40 years back, and you and your families suffered a lot – social boycott, emotional trauma, marriage and family break-ups, financial loss, and other things. And hence you have a valid reason to be angry. And the point is also accepted that the larger Bohra community (that means I include myself) abandoned you all (and some abdes even cursed you) etc …

But, …. I look at it this way: The SKQ vision and philosophy statement is essentially a vindication of your struggle. They will not say it, and they may never acknowledge it, but it is an implicit vindication of what you all fought for. Statements like there should be accountability for money collected, local control of jamaats, no forced zakats, emphasis on education, etc. .. are they not some of the points that you all were asking for?? So based on what SKQ is saying, in my mind, and I have discussed with a few others, you are vindicated – Allah will give you the ajr for it.

Currently, realistically there are 2 choices on the table: So looked at purely from an ordinal (between SKQ and SMS, which is better/more on haqq) point of view, as one is closer to your viewpoint than the other, would you not support SKQ? Do not look for the cardinal (who is the best choice) answer, as it is not currently an option. It is like voting ...

Would be good to know you thoughts, even if you disagree with the logic. And if there are flaws in my argument, please point it out, I would like to hear it and I will appreciate it.

fyi, I am just interested in the discussion; I am not trying to convert anybody to anything

[Humsafar]

DCP,
Yes, we realise that the KQ's stance validates the reformist demands for transparency and accountability. KQ has seen the writing on the wall and is willing to accommodate some of our demands. We appreciate that he has come this far, but not far enough. He and his camp is still firmly entrenched in the "Dai ul Mutlaq" mould - i.e. that the Dai is an absolute authority and cannot be questioned. True, he is an absolute authority but only in religious matters. Nothing else. Our dialogue with his camp lead to nowhere. Which is sad.

As for the Muffadal camp, it is instructive they are not even acknowledging the issues of accountability and transparency. That shows their arrogance, and indifference to the concerns of ordinary Bohras. They are totally out of touch. And Mufaddal himself is retrograde and regressive - and is incapable of forming a cogent thought and holding on to it for more than 5 seconds. What an apology for a Dai he is. Anybody who values their sanity should keep away from him and his lot.

Of the two, it's obvious the PDBs would prefer KQ. But ultimately, it is not a matter of preference or choice, that is if we continue to believe in the doctrine of Imamat as a central pillar of Bohra faith. If the Imam is supposed to appoint the Dai (through ilham) then how come there are two claimants for the post? This is the most fundamental question Bohras should be asking themselves.

[zinger]

Wow!!! Some strong words from a person who claims never to have insulted Mufaddal Maula

[Humsafar]

Wow!!! Some strong words from a person who claims never to have insulted Mufaddal Maula

What claim are you talking about? I'm not insulting him, he is insulting the intelligence and faith of Bohras. He being a Dai in itself is an insult to all that Bohras hold as good and beautiful and truthful.

[zinger]

Wow!!! Some strong words from a person who claims never to have insulted Mufaddal Maula

What claim are you talking about? I'm not insulting him, he is insulting the intelligence and faith of Bohras. He being a Dai in itself is an insult to all that Bohras hold as good and beautiful and truthful.

"And Mufaddal himself is retrograde and regressive - and is incapable of forming a cogent thought and holding on to it for more than 5 seconds. What an apology for a Dai he is."

[think_for_yourself]

What claim are you talking about? I'm not insulting him, he is insulting the intelligence and faith of Bohras. He being a Dai in itself is an insult to all that Bohras hold as good and beautiful and truthful.

"And Mufaddal himself is retrograde and regressive - and is incapable of forming a cogent thought and holding on to it for more than 5 seconds. What an apology for a Dai he is."

Zinger LISTEN to Mufaddal Sifuddin's off script remarks. Then look deep in your heart to find if Hamsafar speaks truthfully or insultingly.

[Humsafar]

Wow!!! Some strong words from a person who claims never to have insulted Mufaddal Maula

Please read again what you wrote. I'm asking when/where did I claim "never to have insulted Mufaddal Maula".

[yfm]

How can you accept the religious authority and staus of the Dai and not the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.

You have to stop accepting the Dai and find a Dai of your own, if you want to change the the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.

You will not change the Kothar unless you change the leadership.

[yfm]

What claim are you talking about? I'm not insulting him, he is insulting the intelligence and faith of Bohras. He being a Dai in itself is an insult to all that Bohras hold as good and beautiful and truthful.

"And Mufaddal himself is retrograde and regressive - and is incapable of forming a cogent thought and holding on to it for more than 5 seconds. What an apology for a Dai he is."

[JC]

How can you accept the religious authority and staus of the Dai and not the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.

You have to stop accepting the Dai and find a Dai of your own, if you want to change the the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.

You will not change the Kothar unless you change the leadership.

Agreed 100% - the (w)hole system stinks ...........!!!!

[AgnosticIndian]

From what I have seen, many of the so called progressives are closet Islamists

[SBM]

From what I have seen, many of the so called progressives are closet Islamists

And what is your definition of Islamists?
Interesting that some one who is Agnostic is telling others how to practice their religion

[Ozdundee]

If anyone has been following SMS, STF recently you will realise reformist ,of which PDB is one group, are a force to reckon with .

If anyone is concerned whether Bohras are reformable. List the achievements we have accomplished in past 5 to 10 years. Are we not freer, courageous and welknown worldwide ?

I usually joke with my abde when was the last time we had a choice of 2 diai, It is proud to be associated with reforms. We have democracy without knowing. We have a choice Diai 1, D2 or no Diai