Progressive Dawoodi Bohras in the Quran

[silvertongue]

I was reading the Quran and found these Ayats regarding the so called Progressive movement. If we can create doubts on the Aqeeda of Abdes and Zaadas why not atleast look at some of these Ayats which are much related to this group as well.

Quran Surah Al Baqarah:
(11-18)
And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.

And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers."

[But] Allah mocks them and prolongs them in their transgression [while] they wander blindly.

Those are the ones who have purchased error [in exchange] for guidance, so their transaction has brought no profit, nor were they guided.

Their example is that of one who kindled a fire, but when it illuminated what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see.

Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

[Ummul Bani]

Bro Silvertongue,

This Surah is not related to any reform or reform movement as you have pointed out.
It is primarily addressed to the Jews and how they had forsaken the covenant etc.
The usage of the word "reform" may not necessarily mean that it is related to a reform movement.
If you get a chance,do check some more translations, it may or may not always involve the usage of this word.

[silvertongue]

I know its not related. But the acts of this group does reflect the same.

[accountability]

you have taken the ayah out of context. Al Baqarah in Arabic translates the cow. but this surah is not about cow. it is madani, was revealed to prophet immediately after hijrat. God is addressing Jews, because they are declining the message of quran. in here when exact word is muslihun, that is salah. progressives do not want any reform in religion, all they demand is an accountable system of administration, where human rights are respected, and dignity of humane being is preserved. this Ramadan in Karachi Pakistan, in various mosques , tahiri, haidry, and shabbirabad, they have refused entry to those who have not cleared their dues, into masjid , even for prayers. why is it fasad on earth, if some one demands under which sharia, or Fatimid tenet is this being done. this is height of tyranny, that you are depriving a mumin to pray in masjid during month of Ramadan. Noordin bhai sahib and his sons are responsible for this. should not dawate hadiya take notice of this. they claim to be all knowing.

[Humsafar]

silvertongue speaks with a forked tongue. If his logic were to be taken seriously then every sect in Islam would be heretical, including the pristine Bohras.
He should know that it is the recent Dais who have distorted and "reformed" the Bohra faith out of recognition. The hypocrites are not reformists but the Dais.

[Deerseye]

Friends, I would like to give Silvertongue, benefit of doubt, I think he has misunderstood all the ayats or has been attending some Sabak of some misled Amil, someone more knowledgable than me ,please explain all the ayats, here n now or we will be unable to bring many more on the right path.

[SBM]

Silvertongue
I know its not related. But the acts of this group does reflect the same.

Silvertongue and Adam (since he liked it and agrees with it)
Could you find any Ayah in Quran which also talks about the over indulgence in Ayashi specially the occupants of Saify Mahal, No it does not but the description of Firun does reflect the current status of Saify Mahal Occupants does not it?

[true islam]

silertongue also while you are at it can you quote some abayas that say Muffy will " hold our hand and lead us to heaven" ? please I will be waiting

[silvertongue]

Well yes here it is:

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 9 Surah Taubah verses 34-35 :
O you who believe! There are indeed many among the priests and the holy men who devour the wealth of others by evil means, and debar the people from the Way of Allah. Give them the good news of a painful torment, who hoard up gold and silver and do not expend these in the Way of Allah. The Day shall surely come when the same gold and silver shall be heated in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their bodies and their backs. (And it will be said): “Here is that treasure you had hoarded up for yourselves! Taste now the evil of your hoarded treasure!”

[silvertongue]

silvertongue speaks with a forked tongue. If his logic were to be taken seriously then every sect in Islam would be heretical, including the pristine Bohras.
He should know that it is the recent Dais who have distorted and "reformed" the Bohra faith out of recognition. The hypocrites are not reformists but the Dais.

Well I am in this forum since 2.5 years and all i have seen is how PDBs fight for the love of money, always crying like babies when some new SMS scheme arrives, and the SMS do the same as well by forcing or emotionally whatever, that doesn't make them much different.So its either you are a PDB or a SMS freaky follower. What I mentioned earlier were the Ayats related to those people who do such acts. And according to me Only one can be right.

[silvertongue]

Friends, I would like to give Silvertongue, benefit of doubt, I think he has misunderstood all the ayats or has been attending some Sabak of some misled Amil, someone more knowledgable than me ,please explain all the ayats, here n now or we will be unable to bring many more on the right path.

A BIG LOL.... I have attend sabaks but definitely not from a misled Amil. You guys simply dont get it do you. The Ayats are a context and based on events that happened in history. Something alike is happening nowadays, and these ayats relate to them (PDBs or Muffi clan) as well. open up your brains guys. I know how you (wahabi/kharjites) are. unless something specific is not shown to you, you guys wont even believe. BUT LOL, you still believe in how you pray namaz, infact its not described in Quran how to pray that. You are so messed up people.. And then you point fingers at others. Bravo.. Well done PDBs..

[y-kuc]

Bro Silvertongue,

This Surah is not related to any reform or reform movement as you have pointed out.
It is primarily addressed to the Jews and how they had forsaken the covenant etc.
The usage of the word "reform" may not necessarily mean that it is related to a reform movement.
If you get a chance,do check some more translations, it may or may not always involve the usage of this word.

Ha ha ha .. Silvertoungue has done an Ali Imraan ayah 7 here

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.
As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].
And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

[Humsafar]

Well I am in this forum since 2.5 years and all i have seen is how PDBs fight for the love of money, always crying like babies when some new SMS scheme arrives,...

Please show us how PDBs have displayed their "love of money"?
And by the way, PDBs don't pay any wajebat to the mafia. It's not us who is crying like babies but the poor, frustrated Bohras who have no choice but have to pay up.
The money PDBs talk about is accountability. What happens to the money that is collected from the community? Where it is spent and how?

[true islam]

silver tongue I had quoted that ayah and nowhere does it say muffu will " hold our hand and guide us to heaven"
the ayah you quoted in the beginning is talking about the jews and christian who reject the quran and follow what is unspecific ( bible, quran)

[silvertongue]

silver tongue I had quoted that ayah and nowhere does it say muffu will " hold our hand and guide us to heaven"
the ayah you quoted in the beginning is talking about the jews and christian who reject the quran and follow what is unspecific ( bible, quran)

Muffi is a blind fellow taking bohras into a giant pit full of shirk. Dont talk his name here bro. We are on the same sides. The Ayats as I mentioned earlier are a context as to what happened earlier in history and the same is repeated today. with muffi clan and his schemes ofcourse.

[silvertongue]

The money PDBs talk about is accountability. What happens to the money that is collected from the community? Where it is spent and how?

You give money as a Zakat, Wajebaat, Khumus etc.. the way you like. Thats your job. The accountability and expenditure is the job of the ones who is responsible for it. If you think he is wrong, let Allah be the judge, Who could be a better judge than HE. You play your part, why do you worry for the things that are not yours to care for. As being a bohra pay the wajebaat as calculated, I bet you are not gonna come on the streets by paying a bit more. If the responsible person is spending uselessly he will answer to it.

When we give taxes to the government, do we ask accountability?
they will throw you in jail. Now that Modi is here its common.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

bro silvertongue
i completely agree with u.
i am repeating what u said
You give money as a Zakat, Wajebaat, Khumus etc.. the way you like. Thats your job. The accountability and expenditure is the job of the ones who is responsible for it.----
i like the word especially the way you like. if it is like that then most of the problem solved my dear.
but sad to say this is not the case. i repeat again--it is not as the way u like---it is the way THEY like.
so understood.

ur next point also i like and agree with u completely
we dont question govt.
good u urself admitted.
mufaddal is running a govt. and not a spiritual and rightful deen
if it is a govt then why the show of deen?
this the crux of the problem.
he is a political person like anybody--using religion to run his govt.

[silvertongue]

Well he fancies Modi thats for sure.

[anajmi]

When we give taxes to the government, do we ask accountability?

Have you ever heard of budgets? Anyway, governments that mismanage public funds can be thrown out. Governments have to give accounts of where they spent money. Those who say governments do not give accounts are simply ignorant.

[anajmi]

The accountability and expenditure is the job of the ones who is responsible for it. If you think he is wrong, let Allah be the judge, Who could be a better judge than HE.

You make pretty dumb statements most of the time. Accountability is one of the key concepts of Islam. What do you think is going to happen on the day of judgment? Allah says that man is supposed to be just in his affairs. And if you continue to feed that which is unjust, then you are share just as much of the blame. Allah has given the criteria for you to judge in a book called the Quran. Allah will judge, but it is your duty to stop corruption wherever possible. The first step is by refusing to pay into the corruption and then let Allah be the judge.

[Humsafar]

Just to add to anajmi's response: "Let Allah be the judge" is the lamest of cop-outs. By that logic, you shouldn't even have started this topic against PDBs, quoting Quran and all. If Allah is to be the judge, then let him be the judge in the case of PDBs also. Why bother interfering in Allah's business. See how dumb that sounds. And that's exactly you are doing, you dimwit.
As for accountability, no personality in Islam was more conscientious about it than Maula Ali. He said you must pay a labourer his due before his sweat dries. The zakat and taxes that his administration collected were part of bait ul maal, the funds that belonged to the people and their welfare. He would not even use a candle that came form the public coffer for private use. That was the level of his integrity. The money that Dawat collects by robbing Bohras blind is also bai ul maal and belongs to the people. If we do not demand accountability from this mafia, Allah will judge us harshly for not doing our duty.

[silvertongue]

And now you say PDBs dont cry about money.. Look at the recent posts how you are defending yourselves now..

[silvertongue]

Of all these things you got just the Accountability thing.. Seriously??? that simply showed your interest in it.. Forget accountability, this post has a different subject. Man you guys are expert in diverting topics ey. Stick to the subject now will you. Or you are still crying about money and accountability here.

[silvertongue]

Allah will judge us harshly for not doing our duty.

Your Duty is to Pay the Zakat and what ever necessary. And who could be worse who pays Zakat and asks accountability. I do oppose these salam schemes and all. But whats all to do with Wajebaat and stuff. WE SIMPLY HAVE NO RIGHT and thats not even the part of our job. Allah commands us to pay Zakat making it one of the pillars of islam as well. So just do it.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

allah also commands to pay zakat, not wajebaat, and that also to those who deserves.
now the question is who is deserving---can be answered by each one according to his consciousness and what he
thinks is right and the person who truly deserves.
do u really think kothar deserves our money?

[WiththenameofAllah]

Asalamoalaykum, i was born in a dawoodi bohra family but Allah Subhanu wa Ta'la guided my heart to the correct deen that is Islam. I do not believe in any sect but only Islam as the Religion of Allah. I do read the posts here on this forum. Being a girl it is very difficult to raise your voice against the wrong doings. May Allah guide every heart to the right path. Ameen

[silvertongue]

allah also commands to pay zakat, not wajebaat, and that also to those who deserves.
now the question is who is deserving---can be answered by each one according to his consciousness and what he
thinks is right and the person who truly deserves.
do u really think kothar deserves our money?

Frankly I would say a big NO... But you very well know that since hundreds of years of Dawat our community has this trend going on. Infact if you see this system of giving Zakat/Wajebaat comes 7th in the Zakat paying system. Well we can say Kothar very well manipulates the minds of innocent people with emotions and Mola Mola naara. Nowadays they say Mufaddal Mola to Mufaddal Mola che Gosh, i mean when did i say he is Popeye the Sailor. I mean cmon.. :-p

[Ummul Bani]

Coming back to the subject,

I know its not related. But the acts of this group does reflect the same.

The Ayats are a context and based on events that happened in history. Something alike is happening nowadays, and these ayats relate to them

Correct.

However, there is a significance of the verses you have quoted and the verses are never to be read in isolation from one another.It changes the whole meaning.For instance,if you would have read the ones prior to the verses you quote, you would have known that these talk about the believers and offer an opening to the subject at hand.
By picking up a select set of verses, you have arrived at a wrong conclusion and have formed a wrong opinion.



The verses you quote are directed towards the disbelievers and hypocrites. These are the people who were told to believe like a true believer should, but they denied doing so. Even when they believed , they were being hypocrite, meaning, they believed and disbelieved at the same time thus trying to deceive Allah.
Not getting into details here, the essence being, these are the very people who cause the disruption and peace and yet call themselves "reformers".


Now, a reform movement, in general is aimed at bringing about a change either structurally or socially or somewhere along those lines, but never fundamentally.
In case of PDBs, they bring about changes keeping their own fundamental beliefs intact. They bring change while still remaining the believers of Allah. They seek accountability and transparency and do not try to change Islam and the core beliefs (the fundamentals).

By now, it should be clear that the term "reformer" in verses above is not the present day reformist.
Therefore, these are two different aspects and not related to each other.If you still think they are related, you should have your reasons then, please do share.

[Humsafar]

And now you say PDBs dont cry about money.. Look at the recent posts how you are defending yourselves now..

What recent posts?

Forget accountability, this post has a different subject. Man you guys are expert in diverting topics ey. Stick to the subject now will you. Or you are still crying about money and accountability here.

You brought up the subject of money, and I responded. The topic you started has no basis, no legs to stand on. What you don't see is your own ridiculous stretching of the Quranic ayat, and when cornered, pleading that accountability be left to Allah. So, leave PDBs accountability to Allah as well, and stop wasting everybody's time.
We cry about money because the Dawat and its ayyashi is built on the illicit money robbed from Bohras. Stoop that flow of money and the Kothar will be bankrupt, and all these fat-ass shahzadas will be out on the streets with begging bowls. Money is the fuel that keeps the dawat merry-go-round moving. PDBs are pointing to this fact. It does not mean we love money, you dimwit.

[anajmi]

Your Duty is to Pay the Zakat and what ever necessary.

There are eight categories of people identified in the Quran that are eligible for your zakat.

And who could be worse who pays Zakat and asks accountability.

If you take your own personal accountability before giving your zakat, you won't have to ask for accountability. If you are giving your zakat to someone who is going to distribute it for you, then you have to take accountability from this person and not from the ones to whom the zakat is finally distributed. If you distribute it yourself, then there is no need for accountability.

Do you even understand the concept?