21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

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bohrabhai
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21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#1

Unread post by bohrabhai » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:22 am

the-dawoodi-bohra-community-.jpg
we all believe that 21 imam is still present and he is last imam till now but i find this narration very interesting from jamea surat website

In 526/1132, the 21st imam, Moulana al-Imam al-Tayyib SA chose complete seclusion and since then all imams, each appointed by his father and predecessor, have remained in seclusion. During this period the community is head by the imam’s vicegerent and representative: al-Dai al-Mutlaq (pl. Du’at Mutlaqeen, also termed Dai al-Mutlaq or Dai), literally meaning ‘summoner with comprehensive authority’. Invested with his powers, the dai’s pronouncements and actions are regarded as those of the imam.


can some one explain to me what is meaning ?
http://jameasaifiyah.edu/the-dawoodi-bohra-community/

Sceptical
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#2

Unread post by Sceptical » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:37 am

bohrabhai wrote:we all believe that 21 imam is still present and he is last imam till now
Wrong. This is Ithnasheri belief : their 12th imam is still "alive" and will re-appear one day...

Imam-u-zamaan AS is a descendant of Tayyib Imam (AS), not Tayyib himself.

bohrabhai
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#3

Unread post by bohrabhai » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:13 pm

Sceptical wrote:
bohrabhai wrote:we all believe that 21 imam is still present and he is last imam till now
Wrong. This is Ithnasheri belief : their 12th imam is still "alive" and will re-appear one day...

Imam-u-zamaan AS is a descendant of Tayyib Imam (AS), not Tayyib himself.
please explain in detail 21 imam is governing bohra community or his descendents?

JC
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#4

Unread post by JC » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:26 pm

Imam has forcibly MADE Dai SIT on 'his' CHAIR and 'vested' all his powers in Dai ........... :roll: Dai is NOW absolute power!! not that he 'has' powers, in fact, he IS 'the power;...

bohrabhai
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#5

Unread post by bohrabhai » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:58 am

bohrabhai wrote: In 526/1132, the 21st imam, Moulana al-Imam al-Tayyib SA chose complete seclusion and since then all imams, each appointed by his father and predecessor, have remained in seclusion./
GM bhai please explain to us what is meaning of it ?

bohrabhai
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#6

Unread post by bohrabhai » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:03 am

It means we have 21,22,23 to...... imams who are in seclusion and will return with all his large family at time of zuhoor

pheonix
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#7

Unread post by pheonix » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:52 pm

Jockey wrote:
bohrabhai wrote:It means we have 21,22,23 to...... imams who are in seclusion and will return with all his large family at time of zuhoor
no he won't. this is all a made up fairy tail that weak minded people believe in. there is no imam
Better to be weak minded than to have no mind like you W beasts.

bohrabhai
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#8

Unread post by bohrabhai » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:36 am

Jockey wrote:
bohrabhai wrote:It means we have 21,22,23 to...... imams who are in seclusion and will return with all his large family at time of zuhoor
no he won't. this is all a made up fairy tail that weak minded people believe in. there is no imam
average life expectancy of mankind is now around 65 years and it was 30 years at time of imam . world record of longest living person is 122 years . so Imam may have not crossed that age .
leave aside that but we have fundamental belief that 21 imam is in pardah and he still live and guiding dai.

What i dont know that 21 imam has done nuss on other person and this nuss silsilo is going on till date . and whenever zuhur will happen whole bunch of imamas will come along with 21 imam ( what i can interpret from jamea link mentioned above )

GM bhai or other wise person guide me whether i am misinterpreting

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#9

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:13 pm

The picture at the top clearly states that in 1132, 21st Imams chose purdah. It has been 882 years and all Imams since the 21st, each nominated by his father, have remained in purdah.

Assuming a generation is 30 years, it has now been 30 generations. Let us further assume that each Imam reigns for 30 years. So the current Imam is around #51. Let us round it up to 53, the same number as the current Dai.

Let us conservatively assume that each Imam had 4 children and they all married and had 4 children each. They also married ladies from outside families. So it is possible that the number of people associated with the Imams could approach or even exceed the current Bohra population.

During all this time, only the Imam and his chosen successor and, presumably, the Dai of the time know the identity of the Imam. It is unlikely that they would disclose this information to any other close members of their families for fear of leaks.

Since there are several claimants for the post of the Dai, we must assume that at some point the Imam, in his wisdom, stopped communicating with his Dai.

Conclusion is inescapable that no one, including the Dai, knows the identity of the current Imam nor what the number of Imam is.

SBM
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#10

Unread post by SBM » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:59 pm

^
It seems like in Fayyaz's world there are lot of assumptions
Seems like some one is talking to GHODA again

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#11

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:18 pm

fayyaaz wrote: Since there are several claimants for the post of the Dai, we must assume that at some point the Imam, in his wisdom, stopped communicating with his Dai.
In case anyone one wonders how then it is possible for a Dai to claim that Imam communicates with him? The answer is that the Dai has 'inspiration' from the Imam or a 'dream' in which Imam communicates with him. It is the Dai who has the inspiration or the dream. Whether Imam is actually involved in it is indeterminable.

Clearly, even in an inspiration or a dream, the Dai does not get any information about the identity of Imam or his whereabouts. That is understandable. I often get dreams in which a person talks to me and I have no idea who that person actually is. Do others have similar dreams? :)

One thing I must advise. You should always trust the Dai when he mentions the inspiration or a dream just as you would have no reason not to trust me when I relate my dream to you. If you insist on trusting only one Dai, then that is your privilege but it does not negate the claims of other Dais.

This is similar to trusting a Christian about his story of Jesus and trusting a Muslim about his. Why would they lie? It is only reasonable.

SBM
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#12

Unread post by SBM » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:56 pm

^ I often get dreams in which a person talks to me and I have no idea who that person actually is. Do others have similar dreams? :)
What kind of psychotropic drugs are you taking?

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#13

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:02 pm

fayyaaz wrote: It has been 882 years and all Imams since the 21st, each nominated by his father, .
and how do you make this confident assertion? do you get ilhaams too, like the dai? actually most adolescents get these types of dreams..

sts had categorically asserted in the chandabhai galla case that the concept of hidden imam is merely a concept, central to DB faith, but there is no proof.

now do you understand my line of "aa lota leke aa ja mere meet"?

you may wonder why i did you the courtesy of calling you, but i cannot bear to see a fellow momin in desperate need, wandering around with a lota..

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#14

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:15 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
fayyaaz wrote: It has been 882 years and all Imams since the 21st, each nominated by his father, .
and how do you make this confident assertion?
My quote above is taken from the photo at the top of this thread. I admit to paraphrasing it a bit. And you quoted only a part of the full sentence. Are you doing an anajmi here, that is, removing the context? Shame on you. And I thought you were an intellectual heavyweight! :D

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#15

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:29 pm

perhaps i am sorely mistaken in attributing more intelligence to you than i thought.

it should be obvious to even a completely raw amateur that the clip posted above is from none other than the surat jamea website, in effect the kothari arm of brainwashing and sinister propaganda. who have made it a fine art of twisting, perverting and mutating bohra faith into suiting their own ends.

if you cannot figure how, where and when they are deceiving the innocent bohra lambs and taking them to slaughter, then there is no point elaborating.

alas, now i must sadly say "jaa lota leke chala ja mere meet"..

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#16

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:56 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:perhaps i am sorely mistaken in attributing more intelligence to you than i thought.

it should be obvious to even a completely raw amateur that the clip posted above is from none other than the surat jamea website, in effect the kothari arm of brainwashing and sinister propaganda. who have made it a fine art of twisting, perverting and mutating bohra faith into suiting their own ends.

if you cannot figure how, where and when they are deceiving the innocent bohra lambs and taking them to slaughter, then there is no point elaborating.

alas, now i must sadly say "jaa lota leke chala ja mere meet"..
Mr Zulfiqar,

That 21st Imam went into purdah and an Imam from his progeny is alive and is in purdah is a fundamental Bohra dogma. That has been the case since the 1st Dai and you will find reference to this belief in all Daawat books. In fact, the rasaail written by Sayedna Taher Saifuddin also mentions Imam in satr in many of his couplets.

If Sayedna Taher Saifuddin denied existence of an Imam in a court case, then he may have his own reasons for it. It has never been denied by the 52nd Dai or even by the 51st in any of his voluminous literary works.

Namaaz for current Imam in satr is prayed on Lailatul Qadr and a reference to him is included in the taqarrub dua recited by Bohras after every farz. The dua includes the the word muntazireen meaning the faithful are eagerly praying for Imam to reveal himself.

You and your cohorts on this forum as well as many Bohras may deny the existence of Imam but at least you should acknowledge it is part of the essentials of the Bohra faith. If you do not think it is, then you should go to Udaipur and ask Reformists there if they also reject Imam in satr.

After you have done all that then, if you wish, you may reassess my intelligence. :)

ghulam muhammed
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#17

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:04 pm

fayyaaz wrote:If Sayedna Taher Saifuddin denied existence of an Imam in a court case, then he may have his own reasons for it.
What could be the reason for denying something which is a fundamental faith of his dawat......... Its a clear case of double standards !

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#18

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:10 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:If Sayedna Taher Saifuddin denied existence of an Imam in a court case, then he may have his own reasons for it.
What could be the reason for denying something which is a fundamental faith of his dawat......... Its a clear case of double standards !
First you wonder why he did that. Then, without even proposing a reason, you condemn the man outright as having double standards. Shouldn't you first come up with a theory, confirm it and then pronounce your judgment?

I consider you a leader of this forum and admire your input. However, you must not rush to judgment, which is what you appear to be doing.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#19

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:23 pm

Firstly Iam not a leader but one of the many members on this forum who tries to contribute in whatever little manner that I can and secondly if you have any better reasons then please spell it out for us as I don't see any other reason rather then double standards or the stereo type "Taawil nu bayan and Hikmat ni waat chhe" !!

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#20

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:33 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:Firstly Iam not a leader but one of the many members on this forum who tries to contribute in whatever little manner that I can and secondly if you have any better reasons then please spell it out for us as I don't see any other reason rather then double standards or the stereo type "Taawil nu bayan and Hikmat ni waat chhe" !!
You are leader simply because you are a prolific contributor to this forum and for that reason alone may set an agenda and drive the conversation.

Did Sayedna Taher Saifuddin say that in Zahir there is no Imam, the tawil of meaning is that there is an Imam? You are not being clear. You are attributing something for which you have not articulated a clear reason. 'Tawil nu bayan chhe' is not the reason.

Let us leave this. No need to engage in a silly discussion.

seeker110
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#21

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:56 pm

Let us ask that Hindu guy ,who dreamed the Mola fiasco. Let us ask him about Imam and his where about. That man holds the secret of Imam.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#22

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:58 pm

Jockey wrote: so great scholar fayyaz can you do all of us a favor and try and prove the concept of imam from the quran?
Don't you know the meaning of the word concept? No? It is a mental construct. It is a concept because it does not exist in nature, otherwise it would have a name.

The word Imam is an abstraction. In our case it means a person who is a leader and guide.

That concept is in the Quran. anajmi will quote you chapter and verse.

But I think you want to know if it is mentioned in the Quran that an Imam can go into hiding. No. Quran does not mention anything about Imam going into hiding, as far as I know.

Do you think it should have mentioned that? As it is not mentioned, do you then think that, Islamically, it is not permitted for Imam to go into hiding and that it is an innovation contrary to fundamental precepts of the Quran? If so, please put forward a theological argument to that effect, O great scholar.
Last edited by fayyaaz on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#23

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:58 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Did Sayedna Taher Saifuddin say that in Zahir there is no Imam, the tawil of meaning is that there is an Imam?
He said that Imam is an imaginery figure ! Now tell me what conclusion could anyone make from this statement.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#24

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:59 pm

seeker110 wrote:Let us ask that Hindu guy ,who dreamed the Mola fiasco. Let us ask him about Imam and his where about. That man holds the secret of Imam.
No need for frivolity just yet. Eid is far away and it is almost Ashura.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#25

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:03 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:Did Sayedna Taher Saifuddin say that in Zahir there is no Imam, the tawil of meaning is that there is an Imam?
He said that Imam is an imaginery figure ! Now tell me what conclusion could anyone make from this statement.
I do not know what to make if that. Are those the actual words he used? Did he say them in English, Arabic or Lisane Dawat?

In one sense, it is clearly not an 'imaginary' figure as it is a fundamental part of Bohra dogma. Maybe he meant something else. But why is that even a subject for discussion?

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:38 pm

Imam as a leader is something that is mentioned in the Quran. An hiding Imam is a concept not mentioned in the Quran. Some people might say that since the concept is not denied, it is acceptable. That is actually a foolish argument, especially coming from those that consider themselves to be educated. An Imam is a leader. A leader has to lead. If he is hiding, then he is leading jack shit. Hence anyone who is hiding, is not an Imam. He is just someone who is hiding.
The word Imam is an abstraction. In our case it means a person who is a leader and guide.
No doubt the leader and guide in the case of the bohras is an abstraction cause the Imam is hiding and the Dai is nothing more than a nautanki.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#27

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:49 pm

anajmi wrote:Imam as a leader is something that is mentioned in the Quran. An hiding Imam is a concept not mentioned in the Quran. Some people might say that since the concept is not denied, it is acceptable. That is actually a foolish argument, especially coming from those that consider themselves to be educated. An Imam is a leader. A leader has to lead. If he is hiding, then he is leading jack shit. Hence anyone who is hiding, is not an Imam. He is just someone who is hiding.
anajmi,

I wondered where you were. Can't keep a good man away for long! :)

Does Quran have anything to say about deputizing the leadership? I mean, would Rasulullah, while alive and after he has gone, deputize someone to act on his behalf? Would that be sanctioned by the Quran?

If the Quran does not sanction deputization, why are Khalifas so named? Actually, to give them their full title, they were called 'Khalifat Rasulullah', 'Deputy of Rasulullah'.

Please comment.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:54 pm

Does Quran have anything to say about deputizing the leadership?
Yes it does. Read the passage of Musa (as) going to the mount and leaving his brother in charge. This is the passage used by the bohras to justify the Imam going into hiding for hundreds of years and the appointment of the Dai as the leader or the appointment of Ali by the prophet (saw). What they forget to mention is that Musa (as) was back after a few weeks, and under the leadership of his brother, shirk had taken a hold of the community through no fault of his brother. Although in the case of the bohras, the leaders are primarily responsible for the shirk.
Last edited by anajmi on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#29

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:56 pm

I wondered where you were. Can't keep a good man away for long!
Trying to figure out how to lead the toli while hiding. :wink:

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#30

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:00 pm

anajmi wrote:
Does Quran have anything to say about deputizing the leadership?
Yes it does. Read the passage of Musa (as) going to the mount and leaving his brother in charge. This is the passage used by the bohras to justify the Imam going into hiding for hundreds of years and the appointment of the Dai as the leader or the appointment of Ali by the prophet (saw). What they forget to mention is the Musa (as) was back after a few weeks, and under the leadership of his brother, shirk had taken a hold of the community through no fault of his brother. Although in the case of the bohras, the leaders are primarily responsible for the shirk.
Good man. Let us leave the perfidy of the Dai aside. You can go on entertaining this forum on that issue, for all I care, till qayamat.

However, deputizing leadership is not against the Quran. So the Hidden Imam/Dai situation is not fundamentally against the Quran. Good to know that.