21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

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anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#121

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:39 pm

I too follow the same practuce as fayyaaz. outside of cyber world, when i discuss religion with hindus and christians and jews and bohras i treat them all with respect even though i consider them all to be complete bunk. The same kind of bunk too.

By the way, when i claim them to be complete bunk, i am claiming that with utmost respect.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#122

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:58 am

JavedhJuma wrote:
There is a lot of research on the subject and it is proved from Imam Hussein's wife to Fatimid Imam Muiz's wife some women were non-Muslimas. Also, Imam Zainul Abeidin's mother was bought as a maid. What is the big deal. They gave birth to future Imams. This is what Allah SWT wished. He doesn't see who is Muslima and who isn't. It is the Soul of the person that matters. But this is beyond their comprehension.

Hey, Hazarat Ishmail AS (Hazarat Ibrahim's son) was born of a concubine!
Let us get this out of the way. According to Muslims, Hajira was Ibrahim's wife not a concubine. She was a concubine according to Christians. Research cannot verify the 'truth'. It can only verify what has been reported as written down or passed on orally. It is like 'I can verify that ancient astronomers believed the Universe to be earth-centered', but our descendants will verify that 'our generation believed the Universe has no well-defined center'. Stephen Hawking says that when we discover the the ultimate theory of everything, we will know the mind of God. So research of ancient manuscripts cannot give us the truth but only confirm prejudices and biases held by a particular group which believed in those manuscripts. 'Truth' is known only to God.

Coming to the issue of the mothers of Imams, their status prior to marriage to an Imam is irrelevant. Their social status, whether a slave or freeborn is of no consequence as long as she became a Muslim upon marriage to Imam. I wrote elsewhere that a Muslim could marry a Jewess or a Christian without her becoming a Muslim according to majority Muslim fiqh. The only question is then if any Imam had a Christian or Jewish mother. The rest must be assumed to be Muslims. If they had, then Munira's claim that mothers of all Imams were Muslims can be buried.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#123

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:28 am

Musa (as) was born to a jewish slave. He is amongst the greatest prophet of Allah, mentioned more times in the Quran than any other prophet. His status is greater than any Imam ever born or any Imam that will ever be born.

Allah doesn't select his Imams and prophets based upon the status of their mothers. This is a condition created by humans to establish their own personal kingdoms.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#124

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:21 pm

anajmi wrote:Musa (as) was born to a jewish slave. He is amongst the greatest prophet of Allah, mentioned more times in the Quran than any other prophet. His status is greater than any Imam ever born or any Imam that will ever be born.
Trust the Wahhabi bigot to poke an utter irrelevancy. Musa was not a Fatimi Imam. We are not concerned with his mother only the mothers of Fatimi Imams. And how does one conclude that Musa's status is greater than that of any Imam? Is that your interpretation of the Quran, you idiot?

Ibrahim was made a Prophet first and later his status was raised to Imamat according the Quran. Musa remained merely Prophet. So, Imamat is a 'higher' status than Prophethood according to Quran.
anajmi wrote:Allah doesn't select his Imams and prophets based upon the status of their mothers. This is a condition created by humans to establish their own personal kingdoms.
And of course the bigot knows Allah's criteria for selecting a prophet or Imam! Nobody claims Allah chooses Prophets or Imams on the basis of their mother's status. According to Shia doctrines, Muslim Imams are appointed by nass from among the sons of the incumbent.. We have no idea if the incumbent chooses his successor from among his sons on the basis of the religion of his wife or concubine. We have also no idea what the basis of his choice is.

We are concerned with far less weighty matter. Was the mother of every Fatimid Imam a Muslim? That is all. So keep your bigotry to yourself. :roll:

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#125

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:49 pm

Musa was not a Fatimi Imam.
Correct. Tells you something doesn't it?

As per the quran even prophet mohammed (saw) remained "merely" a Prophet. So according to your idiotic logic your fatimi imams are better than him too?

What have the fatimi imams being growing for you fools to smoke?

Imamat is a higher status only according to idol worshippers. But thankfully shias, other than bohras and idiots like fayyaaz, do not consider imamat to be a higher status than prophethood. I had this discussion with a bunch of shias on shiachat.com and none of them claimed otherwise.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#126

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:03 am

Allah has established the fallibility of these imams in the quran itself. Bohras normally quote the ayah about Allah ordering believers to obey Allah, his prophet (saw) and those in authority. They use this ayah to justify their idol worship. However, the exact same ayah solves the problem too. But bohras will never quote the second part of the ayah. When i asked fayyaaz about it he ran away.

The second part of the ayah says that if you disagree with the people in authority then refer to Allah and his prophet (saw). It means that it is possible and ok to disagree with the people in authority. The fact that Allah commands you to refer to himself and his prophet (saw) during such disagreements implies that people in authority might be wrong too.

So in effect it doesnt matter who your mother is. If you are not a prophet, but merely an Imam then you are fallible.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#127

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:30 am

Hey Wahhabi bigot,

Fallibility of Imams, status of their mothers etc has nothing to do with this discussion. If you have nothing better to do why don't you use your hands for other pleasures instead.

To be absolutely clear, Imamat is a higher station than Prophethood because Ibrahim was promoted to it. Thus Imams rank higher than Prophets. Now, if you interpret Quran correctly, you will find that a Bohra Dai has a higher status than either the Prophet or the Imam. Dai is Ilahul ard which places him only slightly below Allah.

I am not interested in your erudition of the Quran. Go to Wahhabiland and preach it there.

Munira_RV
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#128

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:44 am

JavedhJuma wrote:
Hey, Hazarat Ishmail AS (Hazarat Ibrahim's son) was born of a concubine!
Prove above?

Munira_RV
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#129

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:47 am

anajmi wrote:Musa (as) was born to a jewish slave. He is amongst the greatest prophet of Allah, mentioned more times in the Quran than any other prophet. His status is greater than any Imam ever born or any Imam that will ever be born.

Allah doesn't select his Imams and prophets based upon the status of their mothers. This is a condition created by humans to establish their own personal kingdoms.
Then why Quran is projecting Khizr superior than Musa?

Munira_RV
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#130

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:58 am

anajmi wrote:Allah has established the fallibility of these imams in the quran itself. Bohras normally quote the ayah about Allah ordering believers to obey Allah, his prophet (saw) and those in authority. They use this ayah to justify their idol worship. However, the exact same ayah solves the problem too. But bohras will never quote the second part of the ayah. When i asked fayyaaz about it he ran away.

The second part of the ayah says that if you disagree with the people in authority then refer to Allah and his prophet (saw). It means that it is possible and ok to disagree with the people in authority. The fact that Allah commands you to refer to himself and his prophet (saw) during such disagreements implies that people in authority might be wrong too.

So in effect it doesnt matter who your mother is. If you are not a prophet, but merely an Imam then you are fallible.

(A) Anajmi above agrees though not infallible but Fatimi Imams are the divine appointed authority.

(B) But for Awwal, Sani and Salis - besides being fallible they are not divinely appointed.

Better to lead community are set (A) as they have divine authority. So all who followed set (B) are doomed, as they followed fallible and non-autority.

Munira_RV
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#131

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:00 am

fayyaaz wrote:Now, if you interpret Quran correctly, you will find that a Bohra Dai has a higher status than either the Prophet or the Imam. Dai is Ilahul ard which places him only slightly below Allah.
Please quote the chapter and verse number for above.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#132

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:05 am

Munira_RV wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:Now, if you interpret Quran correctly, you will find that a Bohra Dai has a higher status than either the Prophet or the Imam. Dai is Ilahul ard which places him only slightly below Allah.
Please quote the chapter and verse number for above.
That was written in jest. It is of course not true. I wanted to make the Wahhabi blood boil a bit! :lol:

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#133

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:20 am

Prophethood because Ibrahim was promoted to it.
There is nothing in the quran to suggest that he was "promoted" to it. There wouldnt be a point in asking you for the ayah would there? Although if i want you to run, i should :wink:
That was written in jest. It is of course not true. I wanted to make the Wahhabi blood boil a bit!
thank you munira janab for exposing the liar. We can similarly dismiss all that he claims to be from the quran.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#134

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:24 am

Anajmi above agrees though not infallible but Fatimi Imams are the divine appointed authority.
Why would Allah appoint someone who is going make mistakes in religion in the first place? Logic and Imam are not mutually exclusive are they?

JavedhJuma
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#135

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:08 pm

Munira_RV wrote:
JavedhJuma wrote:
Hey, Hazarat Ishmail AS (Hazarat Ibrahim's son) was born of a concubine!
Prove above?
Here is the proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_in_Islam

I would appreciate it if you could prove from your sources she was not a handmaiden or concubine. Thanks.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#136

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:04 pm

Then why Quran is projecting Khizr superior than Musa?
There is nothing in the Quran that says that Khizr was superior to Prophet Musa (as). However, most Ulema agree that Khizr was not a human but probably an angel in human form. Hence, we cannot compare them. For example, it was Jibraeel (as) who came and taught the prophet (saw) how to pray and brought the Quran to him from Allah. Doesn't mean that Jibraeel is superior to the prophet (saw). We should not be comparing them.

This is the problem that idol worshippers normally fall into. They are always trying to figure out who is superior to whom. Allah orders us in the Quran not to make distinctions between his prophets. Read the second last verse of Suran Baqara.

Munira_RV
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#137

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:53 pm

anajmi wrote: However, most Ulema agree that Khizr was not a human but probably an angel in human form. Hence, .........
Q1. Who authorise them as 'ulema'? When your Awwal, Sani and Salis themselves are not authorise by Prophet Mohammad (s).

Q2. "Probably" - you have made your personal thinking (hawa nafsi) as your God. "Probably" has probability of "may be" and "may not be", on such unconfirmed and shaky ground you are then yourself fabricating dogmas of Islam "Hence...."

Who has authorised you to make the dogmas in the matter of Islam? No one. So you are idol worshipper of your own "thinking".

You are drawing conclusion from your own (unintelligent) thoughts and thinking that is Islam. Ditto is the thinking pattern of Terrorists, they think they are serving Islam but no, they are serving their master terrorist indeed, not Islam.
Last edited by Munira_RV on Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Munira_RV
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#138

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:13 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:
Munira_RV wrote: Prove above?
Here is the proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_in_Islam

I would appreciate it if you could prove from your sources she was not a handmaiden or concubine. Thanks.
This is how Ithna Asheri trick 'religion thrill seeker' like yourself, who do not think or research further deep than what is apparently served to them in the ready-to-eat platter by Ithna's.

Wikipedia - this is your source of Deenyat!!!

Ithna Asheri's Wikipedia says:


"The story of Hagar

Ibrahim was childless. He was a prophet of God and, having left his native land, he was concerned over who would continue the prophetic office after him and whether he would indeed be a father one day. Abraham's wife, Sarah was barren and she gave him her Egyptian handmaid Hagar as a second wife. Hagar subsequently bore a child, and named him Ishmael, meaning "God will hear".


Above Wikipedia is the authentic history and faith of Ithna Asheri.

Let me prove above as false, refer the red bold text: This red text above is lie and statement made to fool Ithna Asheri's. The matter of fact is Sarah was not barren, contrary to above red text. Yes, Sarah was not barren. She did gave birth to boy named Isaac.

The birth of Isaac to Sarah - proves the red text above, faith and knowledge base of Ithna Asheri as false and lies.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#139

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:29 pm

Munira,

Your last two posts in replies to the Wahhabi bigot and JavedhJuma are very intelligent. I like them.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#140

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:41 pm

Dear munira janab,

the main point of my post, which thankfully you completely ignored , was about there being nothing in the quran suggesting that khizr (as) is superior to musa (as). And the example i gave about the prophet (saw) and jibraeel (as). And i thank you for that. The rest that you posted is just noise.

As for fayyaaz, you are in a state where a donkey braying on my posts will also sound intelligent to you :mrgreen:

JavedhJuma
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#141

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:57 pm

Let me prove above as false, refer the red bold text: This red text above is lie and statement made to fool Ithna Asheri's. The matter of fact is Sarah was not barren, contrary to above red text. Yes, Sarah was not barren. She did gave birth to boy named Isaac.
For some reason everything we submit is an Ithnas statement. Why don't you show us your sources to prove your point so we can educate ourselves. Also, provide links as we have provided to support our argument. Also, prove what I have provided is from Ithnas sources, and your true version and sources. Thank you.

fayyaaz
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#142

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:21 pm

JavedhJuma,

There is no 'true' version of 'religious' history. Events are interpreted with biases of the writers. There are just different versions believed by different peoples to be true. Religious history is not like Physics where anyone can verify physical facts for themselves.

Lot of what passes for 'authentic' history by religious fanatics is nothing more than pure bull. Witness the Wahhabi bigot bringing angels into this discussion. You have to be pretty stupid to believe in angels in this day and age! You know scriptures are full of crap like that, what with virgin births, seven heavens, creation of universe in seven days, and other equally unbelievable folklore.

Let us accept every version to be true for those who believe in them as long as people do not use violence to promote their fanatical views on others.

I will be back next week.

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#143

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:56 pm

I agree with fayyaaz. As long as we are not using violence against each other we can safely say that the entire bohra concept of Imamat is complete and utter bull with no support from the Quran or hadith.

JavedhJuma
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#144

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:57 pm

fayyaaz wrote:JavedhJuma,

There is no 'true' version of 'religious' history. Events are interpreted with biases of the writers. There are just different versions believed by different peoples to be true. Religious history is not like Physics where anyone can verify physical facts for themselves.

Lot of what passes for 'authentic' history by religious fanatics is nothing more than pure bull. I hope this is your own personal view. Witness the Wahhabi bigot bringing angels into this discussion. You have to be pretty stupid to believe in angels in this day and age! REally? If you are a Muslim, you have to believe in Angels. If you are not then please excuse me.You know scriptures are full of crap like that, what with virgin births, seven heavens, creation of universe in seven days, and other equally unbelievable folklore. I know few like you who believe this but majority does not.

Let us accept every version to be true for those who believe in them as long as people do not use violence to promote their fanatical views on others. I hope you are taking your own advice first and not calling others version crap.

I will be back next week.
Have a nice trip and hope you do not bump into Angels!

anajmi
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#145

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:59 pm

He isn't taking a trip to anywhere. He needs a week to recover from the beating he gets over here. :mrgreen:

KA786110
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#146

Unread post by KA786110 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:53 pm

People: To the victor (now a days: the ultra rich nations) go the spoils of history. Look at how Islamic history and narrative is being distorted by the oil money.

As far as creation of the universe is concerned: It was described in a way which ancient people could understand.

There are people who still think God created the Universe in six days and rested on 7th day. But that is naivete. Allah creates whenever and whatever he wants. As Iqbal says:

Ye Kainat Abhi Na-Tamam Hai Shaid
Ke Aa Rahi Hai Damadam Sada’ay ‘Kun Fayakoon’


When reading scriptures you need to be aware of its context (the time, place and people for whom it was sent down). You cannot take all of it literally and apply it to every era. Look at how many tafsirs have been written in Arabic for the Quran which itself is in Arabic

JC
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#147

Unread post by JC » Fri May 01, 2015 7:32 pm

Fully agree with KA786110 ............. God has given us 'Wisdom' and 'Knowledge' and above all 'ability' to think, analyze and rationalize, everything evolves, the only constant thing is change and people have to understand this; even a dumbest guy does not keep on buying the same stuff all the time..!!!!

james
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#148

Unread post by james » Sat May 02, 2015 1:40 am

JavedhJuma wrote:James,

According to historians, Ivanov, Daftari, etc. who spent years doing research they deny what you are saying. If your version is true why aren't you guys putting it out for research.
Meh.Understand one thing very clearly.Bohras do not care what the paid Nizari Stooges Ivanow and Daftary have to say regarding the Tayyibi History after the split.They can claim any amount of absurd theories and spew bile on the Tayyibi community whilst collecting money from the Agha Khan.Pseudo Historians may favor or may not favor our cause.Nevertheless,our faith doesn't hinge on what the likes of Ivanow had to say.The only reason I engaged your fallacies because you had the nerve to pass off Nizari propaganda as "Bohra belief".Stop doing that and you will not be made a fool out of.

According to Paul Walker, he went to India and requested your authorities to give excess to your manuscripts. They did not, but asked him what he wanted and they would provide photocopies. When they provided photocopies, Walker realised texts were altered and realised they were not copies of the original. Why?

Hey, why don't you throw this to Paul Walker and challenge him to do a research on this.
Typical straw man argument. Best ignored.
I am sorry, I do not buy what you are selling here. Anybody would change facts to favor themselves.
You depends on the likes of Ivanow who was employed by the 48th Nizari Imam and Daftary who is employed by the current Nizari Imam..I hope you hold the same view for them vis. "Change facts to favor themselves".
Malika was a good woman and had good relations with Fatimid Imams. She was in Yemen. Imam Amir was assassinated on a boat in Alexandria where his wife was pregnant with the baby. Baby was not born and according to Ivanow baby was a girl at birth and was born after Amir died.

Now, if the baby already was born (I doubt) the question is why did Hazarat Amir keep Hafiz in charge, and why did Hafiz kick the family out? Didn't the Imam know this would happen?

Also, if the baby was born and was a boy, and according to you was about 2 years old, why did Malika hide it from the community. Doesn't the community have a right to see the Imam?

Bohora history as shown by the Bohoras to the Bohoras and is for the Bohoras is not available to researchers. Why?

How much of Bohora Tayebi Ismailism has been made available to Harvard University where they have opened Ismaili Studies.
Don't you think you can contribute a lot to your version?
You keep flogging the proverbial horse. As you're such a great fan of Wikipedia passing off its articles as Gospel,stew on this Wikipedia text.
As per chronicle of Ibn al-Muyassar(d.677): "In Rabi al-awwal(of..524 AH)..Qasim al-Tayyib was born to al-Amir;...Cairo was decorated..New suits of clothes were issued to the troops...at the 'aqiqa ceremony... in presence of al-Amir...child was brought in, and Chief Qadi Ibn al- Muyassar was given the honour of holding it...the palace was filled with fruits and other sweets...
Check mate to Ivanow.
Why don't you make available to Institute of Ismaili Studies your manuscripts? Why do Hamdani, Poonawalla, Zahid Ali leave their treasures to Institute of Ismaili Studies and why are these three ex-communicated?
Careful there.You don't want me talking about the author of mostmerciful.com :lol:

A kind suggestion:Stay on one topic.Don't stray. :roll:

JavedhJuma
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Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#149

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Sat May 02, 2015 5:27 pm

james wrote:
JavedhJuma wrote:James,

According to historians, Ivanov, Daftari, etc. who spent years doing research they deny what you are saying. If your version is true why aren't you guys putting it out for research.
I repeat again why aren't you opening up to research. What have you got to hide? You can't hide more than what you have already hidden (your Imam), who is the pillar of your belief.


Ivanov and Daftari are not paid stooges of Aga Khan. They have, especially, Daftari has, contradicted Ismailis, but Ismailis are not taking any issue with him because his research is based at Ismaili Studies which is now a University and it is his own version based on his research. Only people like you do not understand what entails research because you are like frogs in a pond, just croaking. :mrgreen: Why do you think Hamdani, Poonawalla and Zahid Ali left their research to Ismaili Studies and not to your Dai? These are not paid stooges because the scripts in their hands were written by your Dais and scholars. They did not get any money from the IIS. They have in some cases contradicted Nizaris and the Institute has not rejected them. Read Hamdani on this site, how he has criticised Ismailis, but we do not call him a paid stooge of the Dai.


Meh.Understand one thing very clearly.Bohras do not care what the paid Nizari Stooges Ivanow and Daftary have to say regarding the Tayyibi History after the split.They can claim any amount of absurd theories and spew bile on the Tayyibi community whilst collecting money from the Agha Khan. It seems you care! :lol: If anybody is spewing bile, it is you! Why do Ivanow and Daftary have to distort Tayyibi history. If anybody has distorted it, it is, you and I will prove it my next post. Pseudo Historians may favor or may not favor our cause.Nevertheless,our faith doesn't hinge on what the likes of Ivanow had to say.The only reason I engaged your fallacies because you had the nerve to pass off Nizari propaganda as "Bohra belief". Can you please quote this?Stop doing that and you will not be made a fool out of. If anybody is a made fool here, it is you.

According to Paul Walker, he went to India and requested your authorities to give excess to your manuscripts. They did not, but asked him what he wanted and they would provide photocopies. When they provided photocopies, Walker realised texts were altered and realised they were not copies of the original. Why?

Hey, why don't you throw this to Paul Walker and challenge him to do a research on this.
Typical straw man argument. Best ignored. Why ignore. Mard ka bacha ho to Bol. This is what I call cheap cope out![/color]

I am sorry, I do not buy what you are selling here. Anybody would change facts to favor themselves.


You depends on the likes of Ivanow who was employed by the 48th Nizari Imam and Daftary who is employed by the current Nizari Imam..I hope you hold the same view for them vis. "Change facts to favor themselves".



Do you realise what you are saying. Daftary and Walker could loose their acamedicias if they do so. Hey, why don't your Dais take them to court like tha Aga Khan did when Mir Bhose and your most merciful lied about Ismaili doctrines? They both agreed they lied and distorted facts to make money out of their books. This included Warhammer the writer of Golden Throne who had used materials from these liars.
Malika was a good woman and had good relations with Fatimid Imams. She was in Yemen. Imam Amir was assassinated on a boat in Alexandria where his wife was pregnant with the baby. Baby was not born and according to Ivanow baby was a girl at birth and was born after Amir died.Now, if the baby already was born (I doubt) the question is why did Hazarat Amir keep Hafiz in charge, and why did Hafiz kick the family out? Didn't the Imam know this would happen?

Also, if the baby was born and was a boy, and according to you was about 2 years old, why did Malika hide it from the community. Doesn't the community have a right to see the Imam?

Bohora history as shown by the Bohoras to the Bohoras and is for the Bohoras is not available to researchers. Why?

How much of Bohora Tayebi Ismailism has been made available to Harvard University where they have opened Ismaili Studies.
Don't you think you can contribute a lot to your version?And clear the fallacies!!!!
You keep flogging the proverbial horse. As you're such a great fan of Wikipedia passing off its articles as Gospel,stew on this Wikipedia text. All is not Wikipedia, and you know that.



As per chronicle of Ibn al-Muyassar(d.677): "In Rabi al-awwal(of..524 AH)..Qasim al-Tayyib was born to al-Amir;...Cairo was decorated..New suits of clothes were issued to the troops...at the 'aqiqa ceremony... in presence of al-Amir...child was brought in, and Chief Qadi Ibn al- Muyassar was given the honour of holding it...the palace was filled with fruits and other sweets...
Why did you leave out what Ibn Muyassar also wrote that the baby was in the basket with flowers and fruits on top? Really?, why? Why did you omit this? He also said the maid carried the baby in a basket on her head with flowers and fruits on top of the baby!!!!!!!!

Check mate to Ivanow. Not yet! Not in your wildest dream
Why don't you make available to Institute of Ismaili Studies your manuscripts? Why do Hamdani, Poonawalla, Zahid Ali leave their treasures to Institute of Ismaili Studies and why are these three ex-communicated?
Tell me why were these three people ex-communicated? Instead of threatening me.

Careful there.You don't want me talking about the author of mostmerciful.com :lol: Is this a cheap threat? Go ahead make my day! :lol: First of all mostmerciful was never ex-communicated!!!!! He sent a letter to the Council stating he was leaving the faith. My Imam never ex-communicates anybody! I have proved your twin MF and his puppies wrong, have gotten rid of some of your Kafir Idis videos with the help of my friends and we won't rest until he is out, totally. All we need time and research and we have to prove him wrong. He is not posting any more. If you are correct in your facts, why don't you guys put your history out there to prove others wrong. If a group of us, with little resources can put Kafir Idi out of commission why can't your Dai, who is collecting and hoarding so much money every single day, while his poor mominin lie in the street (like that woman recently did) not do so to protect his religion like the Aga Khan did when your Most Merciful and Mir Bhose tried to distort Ismaili history. This is called Mardangi Your Most merciful had to apologise for lying and distorting facts in court of law, and not some Kangaroo court like in Inda, and he had to remove his books from the shelves but he had to go underground to sell them in order to meet his lawyers' fees. Aga Khan refused to fine him and Mir Bhose as long as they admitted to lying and distorting facts! And removed their books from the shelves.

Now, you can prove your adversaries wrong too. Kothar has lots of money and you have your Jamea and if they loved their religion they would open up their own research Institute and prove us wrong, or submit their material to research at Harvard. Or show their manuscripts to scholars instead of giving them altered photocopies. What are they waiting for. What have they got to hide?


A kind suggestion:Stay on one topic.Don't stray. Who is straying buddy.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: 21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

#150

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Sat May 02, 2015 6:07 pm

Here Jamesl This is what you had posted
My comments are in red. I had asked these questions and I am asking you again. Now this is your book and in your favour but there are some holes in there too!



:Ummo-l-Du’aat-il-Mutlaqeen, Molatona Al-Hurrat-ul-Maleka (RA), Arwa binte Ahmad (QS)Hadiqato Akhbaril Yemen
Wafaat: 22nd Shabaan-ul-kareem, 532 H/ 1139 AD, Dhi Jiblah, Al-Yemen

Al-Molat-ul-fazilat-ul-radiyyah, Molatona Al-Hurrat-ul-Maleka’s (RA) birth name was Molatena Arwa binte Ahmad bin Mohammed bin Qasim Al-Sulayhi (RA). Molatena Arwa was nurtured by Molatena Asma binte Shihaab (qs).

She was an individual of very complete qualities. Her voice carried power, her qira’at (Qur’an recitation) had beauty, she was a calligrapher, poet and had an outstanding memory for historical fact. She had an oceanic knowledge of tanzeel ( outward meaning of the Qur’an), taawiil and `ilm-ul-hadith (words of Rasulallah)


Al-Da`ii al-ajal Syedna Ali bin Mohammedo-ni-l-Sulayhi (RA) gave her utmost respect and oft said, “By Allah! (an oath) She will nurture our progeny and the children of D`awat and she will safeguard the affairs of D`awat.” Are the current Dais from her progeny? If not, then this did not come true????She was married to Syedna Ali bin Mohammed’s shazada, Syedna Ahmad Al-mukarram (RA)

Molatena Arwa would give sabaq to Du`aat from behind a curtain. Her knowledge, virtue, piety, desistance from materialism and worship was accompanied by administrative and political excellence such that she won the hearts of people near and far.

This awesome lady could not have achieved all this if she had followed the present day Dai's advice, "Bairao ne ghar no kono pakdi ne rahevu joie! Is the present Dai aware of her brilliance! And what does he think?Molatena Arwa was held in high esteem by A’immat Tahereen (AS) and thus she was addressed in the following ways in their letters to her:

1.Al-Hurrat-ul-Maleka (the free, the Queen)
2.Al-Sayyidat-ul-radiyyah (the leader)
3.Al-Taherat-ul-zakiyyah (the pure)
4.Waheedat-ul-zaman (unique)
5.Sayyidato Muluuk-il-Yemen (Leader of the kings of theYemen)
6.`Umdat-ul-Islam (Bastion of Islam)
7.Khalisat-ul-Imam
8.Zakhirat-ul-Deen (Treasury of Deen)
9.`Umdatul-Mumineen
10.`Ismat-ul-mustarshideen (refuge of those seeking guidance)
11.Kahf-ul-mustajeebeen (shelter of the respondants)
12.Waliyyato Amir-il-Mumineen (authority designate of the Imam)
13.Kafilato Awliye-hil-Mayameen (nurturer of his followers)
14.Hujjatul Jaziratil Yemeniyyah (the Hujjat of the Yemeni peninsula)
(All translations are approximate)


Molatena Arwa was the hujjat of Imam Aamir bi-ahkaam-illah (AS) for the Yemeni peninsula. ( Hujjat is one of the highest posts after the Imam). I know Hujjat is the highest post after the Imam. So what about the Da'i? What number is that? Please do not lie because I am aware of the order after Hujjat. There are a few before the Dai. Can you please let your bohora jamat know what they are? She had the status of ishraaq which means she had the faculty of understanding the Imam’s mere inference. Imam Aamir sent her an old handkerchief from which she realised that his passing was imminent.

In 524 H, Imam Aamir sent Molatena Arwa the famous ‘Sijil-ul-Bisharat’ which conveyed the glad tidings of the birth of Imam Tayyeb (AS). She then passed this news on throughout The Yemen.

In 525 H Molatena Arwa extended the east side of the Jam`e masjid of San`aa and had the names of Panjatan Paak and all the Imams up till then written into its walls in Kufi writing. They remained there and were revealed again in this age of Aqa Burhanuddin (t.u.s.).

Molana-l-Aamir was asassinated in 526 H and from that day until 532 H Molatena Arwa continued the D`awat-Tayyibiyyah in Al-Yemen in the name of Imam Tayyib. In accordance with Imam Aamir’s injunction she began the succession of Du`aat Mutlaqeeen – instituting the first Da`ii, Syedna Al-Zoeb bin Musa (RA) as the Da`ii of absolute authority (itlaaq). She took an oath from him that no Da`ii would pass away except that he would have conferred nas upon the next Da`ii. Did this come true?????? So did Da'i Zoeb lie or was he not Masum like the present Dai.

One year previous to her own passing away, in the year 531 H, Molatena Arwa sent gifts of priceless jewels to Imam Tayyib including a testament of 7 pages signed by witnesses including one from Hind (India). I asked you before, and I am asking you again if she knew where the Imam was, why was she not showing him to the followers. Imam must have been 7 years old. There were Fatimi Imams 7 years old who came to the throne of Imamat and were never hidden. Nizari 48th Imam was 8 years old when he became Imam. He addressed the community without hiding. Molatena Arwa died in 532 H, her milk brother, Molana-l Khattab (RA) wrote a qasida in eulogy to which Syedna Taher Saifuddin (RA) has added his own verses.

One of her titles was Kafilato Awliya-e-hil-Mayameen, to which Syedna -l-Khattab alludes when he writes;
Kafalte jamiy al-Mumineen kafaalatan ‘alat lahumu fi zilliha-l-darajaatuu

You nurtured all Mumineen to such a degree that their status, in the shade of that nurturing, has been elevated.

Today, Mumineen’s level continues to be elevated; :roll: the thawaab of which belongs to the nurturing of this mother, Molatena Arwa (RA) and that of her progeny, Du`aat Mutlaqeen. The present Dai is not from her progeny, Right? :( So how do you explain this?


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Hadiqato Akhbaril Yemen
Translated by: Shk Mustafa Feeroz
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