History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

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Ozdundee
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History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#1

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:21 am

I have started this topic to discuss the Bohras values which are spawned on the core principles that are foundation of modern Bohra faith.

I welcome robust intellectual debate from opponents or proponents of views expressed here so we can increase the knowledge in the community.

Ozdundee
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#2

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:29 am

Let us start the journey immediately after the prophet SAW .

The name Abdallah bin Sabah keeps popping up ..what is the Bohra history on this person.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Saba%27

Where did Bohras according to Bohras , document or recorded the history ? I F it was not Saba then who collected the historical artefacts ?

What is interesting Sabah concepts are so smiler yo keos .

fayyaaz
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#3

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:31 am

Silly topic dredged up by an anti-Bohra for no reason except to ridicule Bohra beliefs.

Let me ask this question to our clever guy from down under?

You say you are a Muslim. Which means you believe in angels. How credible is it that angels exist? Because Quran says so? How credible is it that Quran is word of God? Because Quran says so?

All medieval Ismaili literature is a unique interpretation of the Quran. Deal with Quran's credibility first. Do you even know what the Quran says?

I think you have got your knickers in a twist! :roll:

anajmi
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#4

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:35 pm

Quran says angels exist, but the Quran doesn't say a divinely guided Imam exists.

Munira_RV
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#5

Unread post by Munira_RV » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:35 am

Ozdundee wrote:I have started this topic to discuss the Bohras values which are spawned on the core principles that are foundation of modern Bohra faith.

I welcome robust intellectual debate from opponents or proponents of views expressed here so we can increase the knowledge in the community.
Book Sahih Muslim, 31:5999 - Prophet Mohamed PBUH said, "He who disturbs Fatima (A.S.), in fact disturbs me (PBUH). And he who offends her (A.S.), offends me (PBUH)."

Book Sahih Bukhari, 59:546 - Molatina Fatima A.S. became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not talk to him till she died. Ali (A.S.) buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayers by himself."

Bohras values, core principles of Dawoodi Bohras are derived from = Dawoodi Bohras do as Molatina Fatima A.S. bint Prophet Mohamed PBUH did.

Ozdundee
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#6

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:42 am

Fayaz does not answer the topic , I asked does Ismaili tradition recignise Abdallah bin Saba yes or no

I will next when time permits discuss the events that happened in Imam Mohamed Al Baqir AS which Is the same time when Shia ideology was dicumented

I will also dig out what Omar AS service in compiling the Quran yes humans dicumented the Quran after the Prophet SAW the same person who we say Lamat on put together the Quran that Smb was a hafiz of.

The aim is not to ridicule but to create awareness that these holier than thou fanatics can flick a switch and realise that their belief system is as good as mine. Everyone can choose what they believe in that is their human right but don't tranple on others.

So this topic is not around fayaz I will try ignoring him,

ghulam muhammed
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#7

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:51 pm

Ozdundee wrote:I asked does Ismaili tradition recignise Abdallah bin Saba yes or no
I have come across some Ithna ashari Shia literature wherein they have recognised Abdullan bin Saba at remote places as this is a cause of great embarrassment for them.

Ozdundee
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#8

Unread post by Ozdundee » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:45 am

Gm Bhai thank you Munira thank you too. Some challenge to other commentators if you explain convincingly you have a chance of converting me and gaining sawab, if I don't at least you solidify your faith. If I win you can still practise your belief system and I too as a Muslim and we agree to disagree.

Let us go pre-Muhammad Saw times...we will then discuss the period during the Prophet saw and the events after. The purpose is to give an insight into motivations and impacts of the history.

There are 3 basic tenets why what and who wrote the history . I

Ismaili or Shia ideology discusses events in greater detail than what has been prescribed in the Quran. If one remembers their basic Islamic knowledge there is debate whether there was any written records or is a acceptable belief system , I don't mean pen and paper but whatever medium that used to transfer knowledge and how accurate and effective it was. It is known that the original Quran was recorded or partcments and wooden slates.

There was 600 years between the Issa Saw Bible and Quran and if as Bohras say there were imams who during those 600 years, who were Devinely guided and transferred the knowledge, it may be a convenient explanation only . Muhammad saw was born in an environment that was predominantly Christian, Jewish and Pagan , he reformed his society single handed with his new message. The message was successful in transforming Arabia to become a powerful force against very large old empires and belief systems like the Romans, Zoroastrian and Byzantine . I have no doubt or lack of great admiration that Muhamad SAW or the great other prophets came as messengers to bring new world order. So don't deflect the argument. The issue I have is with the super innovation and in many cases this leads to division and segregation.

However this is where I need Anajmi , GM Bhai to chip in ...

We all as Muslims agree the vision of Muhammad Saw was devinely inspired ...but it's was the only channel and Quran was the outcome or his traditions. Where did all these extra knowledge come about and through what for,s. Is it man made or there is a bigger forum of ideological source. How does one ensure it is as pristine and not innovated , as our Holybook is the only devinely protected.

Ali AS came into the picture much later and there was big age difference. It will be strange to imply there were people around Muhamad saw who trained or coached the prophet saw or Ali had superior knowledge and better devinely guided source , even though many Shia unfortunately are taught to believe that Ali AS had prehistoric knowledge and regrettably many agree .

Hence the question who and why did we record pre- Muhamad sAW stories the Ismaili Shia ideology as we know it today. What is the robust explanation ...

If there is no robust response can we imply it is just a beleif system. Because denying it fractures the foundation of all future ideological framework ! What is interesting what is the Jamia level theory to explain the source and method of historical records .


Note sahih Bukhari or other narrators came after many years later.

Ozdundee
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#9

Unread post by Ozdundee » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:57 am

Among those who received Books, were the four mentioned in the Glorious Quran: Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be on them all). The Books were the Tawrah (Torah) given to Moses (Musa), The Zaboor (Psalms) given to David (Dawud), the Injeel (Gospel) given to Jesus (`Isa) and the Quran given to Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

Apart from these, Abraham (Ibrahim) is mentioned as the recipient of suhuf or scrolls.
All the teachings contained in the former Scriptures that were meant to be of lasting value and importance are included in the Quran. The Quran also gives some accounts, although selective, of what the earlier scriptures contained.

The Scrolls (Suhuf) of Abraham:

In two surahs, Al-A`la (87) and An-Najm (53) that belong to first Makkan period, there is a mention of the "scrolls" (suhuf) of Abraham and Moses, and some reference to some of its contents:

{But those will prosper who purify themselves, And glorify the name of their Guardian-Lord, and (lift their hearts) in prayer. Day (behold), ye prefer the life of this world; But the Hereafter is better and more enduring. And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),-
The Books of Abraham and Moses…} (Al-A`la 87:14-19).

{Seest thou one who turns back, Gives a little, then hardens (his heart)? What! Has he knowledge of the Unseen so that he can see? Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses- And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?- Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another; That man can have nothing but what he strives for; That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight: Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete; That to thy Lord is the final Goal…} (An-Najm 53:33-42).

The Torah (Tawrah) of Moses:

The Quran mentions the scriptures given to Moses in several places:

{It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light} (Al-Ma'idah 5:44).


{We ordained therein for them: life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal, but if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity it is an act of atonement for himself and if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed they are (no better than) wrongdoers} (Al-Ma'idah 5:45).

The Psalms (Zaboor) of David:

It also mentions the Psalms, called "Zaboor":

{And verily We have written in the Psalms, after the Reminder: My righteous slaves will inherit the earth} (Al-Anbiyaa' 21:105).

The Gospel (Injeel) of Jesus:

The Quran refers to the scripture given to Jesus as the "Injeel":

{Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship) seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah has promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward} (Al-Fath 48:29).

The early scriptures, besides carrying the same basic message about Allah, the Master of the worlds, as well as about His creation, humanity, also brought specific instructions addressed directly to particular communities living in specific periods in history such as the Jews and Christians. Scriptures before the Quran were in many of their details situation-oriented and relevant to their particular frameworks.

It is also significant that the earlier scriptures were not meant for all time, as Allah Almighty in His infinite wisdom would reveal His complete Guidance at the right time, when humankind is mature to receive it. That is to say, the Guidance of God would attain its finality, when it would be universally applicable and relevant for all future time. And Allah Almighty sent Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) as the Last Messenger of God to humanity with the Final form of Divine Guidance called the Quran.

The basic message of the Glorious Quran is the same as the basic message of the previous revelations and books, and the directives and instructions, by which it provides guidance for humanity are of a universal nature. They apply for all times to come and in all situations. This revelation corresponds to humankind's position on earth and in history. Humankind has reached, in its development, the stage when universal principles need to be applied to safeguard his purposeful existence.

From the foregoing it is clear that there were prophets other than the ones mentioned by name in the Quran; and that some of them have also received Books of Guidance from Allah.

Ozdundee
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#10

Unread post by Ozdundee » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:59 am

Major books[edit]
The Quran mentions at least three main Islamic scriptures which came before the Quran by name.

Taurat (at-Taurāt): According to Qur'an, the Taurat was revealed to Moses,[2] but Muslims believe that the current Torah, although it retains the main message,[citation needed] has suffered corruption over the years, and is no longer reliable. Moses and his brother Aaron (Harun) used the Torah to preach the message to the Banu-Isra'il (Children of Israel). The Quran implies that the Torah is the longest-used scripture, with the Jewish people still using the Torah today, and that all the Hebrew prophets would warn the people of any corruptions that were in the scripture.[3]
Zabur (az-Zabur): The Quran mentions the Zabur, often interpreted as being the Book of Psalms, as being the holy scripture revealed to King David. Scholars have often understood the Psalms to have been holy songs of praise.[4] The current Psalms are still praised by many Muslim scholars,[5][6] but Muslims generally assume that some of the current Psalms were written later and are not divinely revealed.[citation needed]
Injeel (al-Injeel): The Injeel was the holy book revealed to Jesus, according to the Quran. Although many lay Muslims believe the Injil refers to the entire New Testament, scholars have pointed out that it refers not to the New Testament but to an original Gospel, given to Jesus (Isa) as the word of God (Arabic الله Allah).[7] Therefore, according to Muslim belief, the Gospel was the message that Jesus, being divinely inspired, preached to the Children of Israel. The current canonical Gospels, in the belief of Muslim scholars, are not divinely revealed but rather are documents of the life of Jesus, as written by various contemporaries, disciples and companions. These Gospels, in Muslim belief, contain portions of the teachings of Jesus, but neither represent nor contain the original Gospel, which has been corrupted and/or lost, which was a single book written not by a human but by God.[8]
Other texts of the prophets[edit]
The Quran also mentions two ancient scrolls and another possible book:

Scrolls of Abraham: The Scrolls of Abraham are believed to have been one of the earliest bodies of scripture, which were vouchsafed to ʾIbrāhīm (Abraham),[9] and later used by Isma'il (Ishmael) and ʾIsḥāq (Isaac). Although usually referred to as 'scrolls', many translators have translated the Arabic suhuf as "books".[5][10] The Scrolls of Abraham are now considered lost rather than corrupted, although some scholars have identified them with the Testament of Abraham, an apocalyptic piece of literature available in Arabic at the time of Muhammad.
Kitab of Yahya: There is an allusion to a Kitab or Book of Yahya[11] (who is also known as 'John the Baptist'). It is possible that portions of its text appear in some of the Mandaean scriptures such as the Genzā Rabbā or the Draša d-Iahia "The Book of John the Baptist". Yahya is revered by the Mandaeans and by the Sabians.
Scrolls of Moses: These scrolls, containing the revelations of Moses, which were perhaps written down later by Moses, Aaron and Joshua, are understood by Muslims to refer not to the Torah but to revelations aside from the Torah. Some scholars have stated that they could possibly refer to the Book of the Wars of the Lord,[5] a lost text spoken of in the Old Testament or Tanakh in the Book of Numbers.[12]


fayyaaz
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#12

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:03 am

Until about mid-twentieth century in the West and until now elsewhere, the past, as in history books, is presented to serve political agenda. It does not matter whether it is religious, cultural or political history.

Except for a rare individuals who can rise above personal bias and/or childhood indoctrination, most reinforce their bias by reading history selectively. Every group also has members who rebel against indoctrination and these are the ones who read similarly biased accounts to support their rebellion. Which group do you belong to?

For the vast majority of peoples on earth, history is for history books. Bohras similarly have no memory of cultural or religious history beyond at most 3 generations which simultaneously co-exist. Older generation may remember the time of STS and his sermons, mid-life generation may have fresh the memory of SMB. Most are only concerned with current goings-on. True, they may remember received history associated with Panjatan and martyrs like Sayedna Qutbuddin which is constantly dredged up. That is just ritual with strong emotional association.

In heavily emotionally politicized religious situation that Bohras encounter today, how would a biased history of the Shia by Westerners with agenda to demonize Islam let alone Shiaism be received by them?

Ozdundee, in the conspiracy theory link that you submitted, Quran is claimed to be the book written by enemies of Islam? How does one think that this theory would be viewed by Muslims? Why do you think that this display of adolescent rebellion will make you sound clever among Bohras?

anajmi
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:52 am

I think we should pay more attention to the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) (wahhabi wahhabi, yeah I know) than history books written by anyone else.

As far as books of old were concerned, yes, Quran mentions the torah, the zaboor and the injeel, but these books have been replaced by the Quran. If copies of those books exist today, they have been corrupted. Allah has promised to protect the Quran. And Allah has promised to raise the mention of the prophet (saw). Who mentions the prophet (saw) more than any other human on earth? Only those who follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). The bohras are too busy raising the mention of their fallible Dais and hidden Imams. You won't ever hear them talk about the prophet (saw). Hence, we can safely say that the people that Allah chose to fulfill his promise are not the bohras.

As far as books that came after the Quran ( for example, the Daim ul Islam), Allah says that faith in these books is not required. Remember, the Daim doesn't deal with the traditions of the prophet (saw). It deals with the traditions and the mention of the Imams. The Sunnah deals with the traditions of the prophet (saw). All Islamic scholars agree that any tradition that is not aligned with the Quran should be rejected.

Many Islamic scholars agree that speculation in religion should not be taken lightly. So for example, the Quran mentions by name, 25 nabis/rasools. Some people have claimed that Krishna could've been a prophet (saw) since Allah is supposed to have sent over a hundred thousand prophets. This is speculation that we should stay away from. Whether Krishna is a prophet or not is immaterial.

Similarly people speculate about who was the person that Musa (as) learnt from. That is also irrelevant. There is no need to figure out who he was. Only what he taught to Musa. If Allah had deemed it important to let us know who he was, he would've.

Then we come to the current times. The Quran deals with one subject more than others and that is the subject of accepting the absolute authority of Allah as the supreme being. That is the bottom line. Do not associate partners with Allah, do not replace Allah, do not replace his commandments. Allah says at multiple places in the Quran, obey Allah and obey his prophet (Mohammad (saw)). Allah says in the Quran, believe in Allah, his messengers without making any distinction between them, his angels and his revelations.

Allah has given us examples of good deeds and the prophet (saw) expounded on them and gave details.
Allah has given us examples of bad deeds and the prophet (saw) expounded on them and gave details.

Allah has given us the rituals that we need to perform and the prophet (saw) made it clear how to perform them.

Everything else that we have, about succession, infallible Dais, hidden Imams etc etc etc, is nothing but noise created to elevate the positions of humans and create idols out of them. Consider for example, the bohra taawil. Take any example of any bohra taawil for any ayah of the Quran. The only thing you will see is the elevation of the status of humans. Period!!

The question about rightful succession is also irrelevant, unless of course, as some claim, that Ali was the real prophet or that 10 surahs of the Quran were revealed in praise of Ali but were expunged by the first 3 khalifas. Of course, all these claims have no basis in reality and are solely there to elevate the status of a human.

Look at Daimul Islam. A major portion of that book deals with the elevation of the status of human Imams to great super human beings. Much of the Daim claims that Quran was revealed to elevate the status of the Imam.

So in short, every addition to the religion that has been made since the shia sunni split, the Imams, the fatimid traditions, the bohra clergy etc etc etc etc etc, is all for the sole purpose of elevation of humans. And hence it can all be rejected as it all hinders with the primary message of the Quran, which is the absolute authority of the Allah.

fayyaaz
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#14

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:41 pm

Humans are cultists. Some have members that number into billions, some into millions, some into thousands or lesser number.

Some cults believe God sent his son to guide mankind, some others believe, God became human and had himself killed to guide mankind, some claim God sends messengers with messages to guide mankind, All perform miracles to convince but many remain unconvinced.

Some ancient cults believe God is a tortoise who has placed the Earth on His head. Some say He cyclically creates and destroys universes. Scientologists say God is an astronaut who is imprisoned on a distant planet.

They are all attempts by humans to answer the conundrum of mortality. They are mere speculations. There is no 'physical' reality about any of that. If people derive 'spiritual' sustenance from their beliefs peacefully, within the law and without harming others, why not let them be. No answer is better than others. There is no Pure Religion. They are all just attempts to enslave everyone to fall in line.

If you do not like what the cult believes and you are born into the cult, just leave it. Do not condemn. Be friendly with them. Even pretend, if you must for family reasons, to be part of them. Be a hypocrite and let everyone be happy. (Be a happy hypocrite. Do not remain in it and condemn it like anti-Bohras!). Cults do not stop progress. You can choose to flow along with that.
Last edited by fayyaaz on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

anajmi
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:45 pm

And you think I will take your advice over anyone else's because?

fayyaaz
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#16

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:07 pm

The alternative is to be convinced that my cult is the purest one. Leaders of my cult tell me that my God is the only one there is and that He has instructed me to rescue followers of others cults who are deviants (and following the adulterated version) from punishment in the hereafter. I must do that. That is the mission of my life as given to me by my God. And if I did not take up the mission, my God will punish me instead. But, since I am only a tiny guy, I will concentrate on rescuing the tiny cult in which I was born and let the billions who are also all wrong alone. Because if I started telling these other billions, I will soon be told to pack my bags and shut up. I only shout where my voice counts which is right here on this forum among the tiniest number of the tiniest cult on the planet.

Others like anti-Bohras believe that they must rescue the cult from the punishment the members are subject to in the here now. They want to purify the cult back to its pristine state they imagine existed in medieval times.
Last edited by fayyaaz on Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#17

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:14 pm

I like the alternative. Now, if you will, please let us continue the discussion on this forum. Thank you for your participation.

Ozdundee
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#18

Unread post by Ozdundee » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:10 pm

Anajmibhai thank you for very detailed comment. This is not a challenge to your points.

The comment I may have not included I am not judging or have no basis to state the credibility or fault the modern versions of the prehistoric books like Injeel or Torah mentioned. That is not the intent.

The question is Bohra ideology is it sourced from those books. What other sources if any.

I am not really seeking which book is right or wrong...just a forensic analysis of which book when by who and for what. The motive is a whole topic in itself and can be very subjective . I am interested in facts and evidence.

So far we have established that there where a handful of Books before the Prophet SAW and he came with Quran even with it in his mind through Devine revelation and hence that was the source of fundamentals of Islam.

So before Sunni Shia split or before Ali/Abubakr so called issue , right or wrong, Muslims agreed and practised the same faith as guided by the Prophet SAW who was actually available in life to tell them or direct. No other books or sources to confuse the initial converts!

I have yet to read from any of the Bohra experts to state what were the channels that they claim that we don't know.

anajmi
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:22 pm

Well, I do not know where bohra ideology is sourced from. But I do know where it is not sourced from. The Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) are not the sources of bohra ideology. The jews have two books, the torah and the talmud. The torah is the 5 books of Musa (as). The talmud came much later which is basically a collection of teachings of rabbis. The Talmud is what the jews use for their daily lives. The Talmud tells the jews that they are superior to every other human race and that they can steal, rape and murder the "gentiles".

This is how we can differentiate between the bohra sources and the Quran. The Quran is like the Torah and the Fatimid literature is like the Talmud.

anajmi
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:27 pm

To correct my above post, the primary source of bohra ideology is Daimul Islam, I think. And for the rest of their customs like standing with folded arms in front of the Dai, the hiding Imam, The Imam choosing the Dai, the infallibility of the Dai, the public choosing of the Dai, etc etc, are simply things that they make up as they go along and then find some way to connect it to some ayah of the Quran or the Daim.

Munira_RV
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#21

Unread post by Munira_RV » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:42 am

This is how we can differentiate between the non-bohra sources and the Quran. The Quran = Fatimid literature, And Talmud = non-Bohra literature.

Book Sahih Muslim, 31:5999 - Prophet Mohamed PBUH said, "He who disturbs Fatima (A.S.), in fact disturbs me (PBUH). And he who offends her (A.S.), offends me (PBUH)."

Book Sahih Bukhari, 59:546 - Molatina Fatima A.S. became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not talk to him till she died. Ali (A.S.) buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayers by himself."


Bohras values, core principles of Dawoodi Bohras are derived from = Molatina Fatima A.S. bint Prophet Mohamed PBUH.

Ozdundee
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#22

Unread post by Ozdundee » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:55 pm

Munira you are going off topic what has disturbing Fatema AS got to do by reviewing which books or knowledge source is the baseline of the faith. Yes I agree it could be from Fatema but how was Fatema knowledge gained and how retransmitted. Anyway we will move on.

If it was from the Prophet SAW how did he Transfer it if he spent most of his time with his companion , they would gave witnessed it. I cannot find evidence that he narrated any knowledge other than his Quranic verses and wisdom that was captured as traditions . Which were records of observations .

There has not been any claim from Bohra experts around which book if you use that as the definition of knowledge source that they have used apart from the Hanful of the books mentioned so far.

Next , I am compiling my summary, I will move to the era immediately after the death of Prophet SAW and move slowly in 10 year or generation to see how history was recorded before the major Islamic divisions in the years leading to Jafferi Ismaili splits and there after Ismaili Nizari splits.

Munira_RV
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Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#23

Unread post by Munira_RV » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:56 am

Ozdundee wrote:Munira you are going off topic what has disturbing Fatema AS got to do by reviewing which books or knowledge source is the baseline of the faith. Yes I agree it could be from Fatema but how was Fatema knowledge gained and how retransmitted. Anyway we will move on.

If it was from the Prophet SAW how did he Transfer it if he spent most of his time with his companion , they would gave witnessed it. I cannot find evidence that he narrated any knowledge other than his Quranic verses and wisdom that was captured as traditions . Which were records of observations .

There has not been any claim from Bohra experts around which book if you use that as the definition of knowledge source that they have used apart from the Hanful of the books mentioned so far.

Next , I am compiling my summary, I will move to the era immediately after the death of Prophet SAW and move slowly in 10 year or generation to see how history was recorded before the major Islamic divisions in the years leading to Jafferi Ismaili splits and there after Ismaili Nizari splits.
Dear Dundee,

The companions of Prophet Mohamed PBUH refused to obey his command when he asked for pen and tablet to write which will ensure people may not go astray after he passes away! So all those companion do not even qualify to be called as "Muslim". The term "Muslim" means one who follow and do as Mohamed PBUH commanded. Your "Companion" refused to obey Mohamed PBUH!!!! And there is not just one tradition but multiple traditions in book of Bukhari and Muslim.

Another important observation: Those companion have plotted that Muslims must go astray once Mohamed PBUH passes away. So when we ask when all were one during the life of Mohamed PBUH then why after him Islam divided (went astray) after him? Answer) These "companions" are the root-cause of all problem. Should they have obeyed command of Prophet Mohamed PHUB then today there would have been no sects in Islam and all would have been one united Islam.

Hence prove, all who follow those "companions" are not Muslims, because those companions themselves are not Muslims.

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#24

Unread post by SBM » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:20 am

Munira RV aka Badrijanab
Which Dai do you follow? and which Imam that Dai follows? Please prove that your Dai and Imam are the righteous MUSLIMS

Ozdundee
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#25

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:58 am

Munira...can you please give documentary evidence of your statement. Your criticism of the companions was witnessed or recorded by who ?

If you are going by what you believe or based on what you have been taught , what is their source ? Otherwise it can be hearsay!

Plotted is a strong word who plotted , why can it also apply to Bohra roots that we plotted to go astray and make up conspiracy theories. While if they plotted then their outcome seems to be more influential and widespread then the alternative.

Next time when you say plotted or astray...can you state your source and date when that statement was first made!

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#26

Unread post by Munira_RV » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:30 pm

Ozdundee wrote:Munira...can you please give documentary evidence of your statement. Your criticism of the companions was witnessed or recorded by who ?
1. Sahih Bukhari - Book #3, Hadith #114
2. Sahih Bukhari - Book #59, Hadith #717
3. Sahih Bukhari - Book #70, Hadith #573
4. Sahih Bukhari - Book #92, Hadith #468
5. Sahih Muslim - ook #013, Hadith #4014
6. Sahih Muslim - Book #013, Hadith #4016
7. Sahih Muslim - Book #013, Hadith #4015

Ozdundee
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#27

Unread post by Ozdundee » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:03 am

The Hadith reference you provided on sample verification turned out to be weak ..I have not checked others so where does it say they plotted to derail the religions

The Hadith talks about writing paper ..was there writing paper then ? Why was the Quran on parchments if there was paper, asking for Pen while sources indicate Muhammad SAW never wrote? If he knew why would he not have written the Quran on paper !

Who is ibn Abbas...the intelligent reader can draw their own conclusion.
Ibn 'Abbas was thirteen years old when the Prophet Muhammad died. After Abu Bakr came to power, Ibn Abbas and his father were among those who unsuccessfully requested their part of Muhammad's inheritance, because Abu Bakr said that he heard Muhammad say that prophets do not leave inheritance.
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114:
Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:

Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, "It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. (Note: It is apparent from this Hadith that Ibn 'Abbes had witnessed the event and came out saying this statement. The truth is not so, for Ibn 'Abbas used to say this statement on narrating the Hadith and he had not witnessed the event personally. See Fath Al-Bari Vol. 1, p.220 footnote.) (See Hadith No. 228, Vol. 4).

Book 013, Number 4014:
Sa'id b. Jubair reported that Ibn 'Abbas said: Thursday, (and then said): What is this Thursday? He then wept so much that his tears moistened the pebbles. I said: Ibn 'Abbas, what is (significant) about Thursday? He (Ibn 'Abbas) said: The illness of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took a serious turn (on this day), and he said: Come to me, so that I should write for you a document that you may not go astray after me. They (the Companions around him) disputed, and it is not meet to dispute in the presence of the Apostle. They said: How is lie (Allah's Apostle)? Has he lost his consciousness? Try to learn from him (this point). He (the Holy Prophet) said: Leave me. I am better in the state (than the one in which you are engaged). I make a will about three things: Turn out the polytheists from the territory of Arabia; show hospitality to the (foreign) delegations as I used to show them hospitality. He (the narrator) said: He (Ibn Abbas) kept silent on the third point, or he (the narrator) said: But I forgot that.

bohrikaka
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:43 am

Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#28

Unread post by bohrikaka » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:56 am

What is the History and credibility of the journey of Sunni/Wahhabi ideology if you want trash what they consider sacrosanct and sahih ?

The Hadith talks about writing paper ..was there writing paper then ? Why was the Quran on parchments if there was paper, asking for Pen while sources indicate Muhammad SAW never wrote? If he knew why would he not have written the Quran on paper !

Why did Allah ask Iblees LA to bow to Adam AS when Allah is all knowing and knows the unseen ? Was Allah unaware that Iblees LA would rebel? Hope you get the point :)

AMAFHH
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:19 am

Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#29

Unread post by AMAFHH » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:21 am

Salamun Alaikum,

Lessons for the Muslims in the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) burial

Tags: Ahle Sunnah, Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.), Imam Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.), Sahaabah, Salafi, Sunnah
------------------------------------------------
Some Muslims have misconceptions about the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) and his successor. While there are many incidents during the Noble Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) lifetime that serve to dispel these misconceptions and have clarified the matter for the Muslims, we would like to draw attention to the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) demise and his funeral that have many lessons for his nation.

First let us round up some of the misconceptions of these ostensible Muslims regarding the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) and his successor.

The Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) was an ordinary mortal like any other Muslim.

Being an ordinary mortal, he (s.a.w.a.) did not possess any special powers and gifts, so he (s.a.w.a.) lacked the Knowledge of the Unseen (Ilm al-Ghaib) and to claim this for the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) is polytheism (Shirk) as all knowledge is only for Allah.

Undertaking a journey solely for the visitation (ziyaarat) of the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) grave is a sin and one should not undertake such journeys, else prayers must be shortened (qasr).

The Shias raised the status of Ali b. Abi Taalib (a.s.) and lowered the position of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The Prophet (s.a.w.a.) did not appoint Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) as his successor.

Abu Bakr was the caliph of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Abu Bakr’s caliphate was based on the consensus (ijma) of all Muslims.

The companions (Sahaabah) were always with the Prophet (s.a.w.a.). In the spirit of companionship they never abandoned him (s.a.w.a.).

Many misconceptions like these can be answered through just one incident – the death and burial of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.).

While there are many reports about the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) death, we will focus on a few to highlight some important points for Muslims. There are many other reports that reinforce these points.

Tradition 1

Jabir b. Abdullah Ansari and Abdullah b. Abbas narrate – When the first verse of Surah Nasr (110) was revealed – “When there comes the help of Allah and the victory…” till the end, Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) asked the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) – O Prophet (s.a.w.a.) when you die who will give you the ceremonial bath (Ghusl), shroud you and recite prayers on you and who will lower you in the grave?

The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) replied, “O Ali! As for the ceremonial bath, you will bathe me and Ibn Abbas will pour water for you and Jibraeel will be the third (one to bathe me).”

When you are done with the ritual bath, shroud me with 3 new garments.

Jibraeel will get the camphor from Paradise.

Then when you lower me on the bed, place me in the Mosque (of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.)) and leave me.

The first to offer prayers (salawaat) on me will be Allah from His Throne (Arsh), followed by Jibraeel, Mikaaeel, Israafeel and the angels in groups after groups.

Then you all enter the mosque and align yourself in rows (for prayers). None shall come in my presence but he will exclaim (as condolence) – Surely the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) has died.

Then (as instructed by the Prophet (s.a.w.a.)), Ali gave the ritual bath to the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) and Ibn Abbas poured the water while Jibraeel was with them. His (s.a.w.a.) shroud was 3 new garments. He (s.a.w.a.) was carried on the bed. Thereafter, they entered the Mosque, placed him (s.a.w.a.) inside it and left him (s.a.w.a.) alone (as ordered by the Prophet (s.a.w.a.)).

The first one to offer prayers (Salawaat) on the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) was Allah from His Throne (Arsh), followed by Jibraeel, Mikaaeel, Israafeel and the angels in groups after groups.

Ali (a.s.) narrates – We heard humming in the Mosque but we did not see anyone. We heard a caller announce – Enter – may Allah have mercy on you and offer prayers on your Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Then we entered and formed rows like the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) ordered us. Then Jibraeel recited the takbeer (Allah-o-Akbar), we offered prayers on the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) with Jibraeel and none took precedence over us in praying for the Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

And finally Ali (a.s.) lowered the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) in his grave…

Hilyah al-Awliyaa wa Tabaqaat al-Asfiyaa (vol. 4 p. 77) by Abu Noaim Isfahani
Ithaaf al-Saadah al-Muttaqeen (vol. 10 p. 291) by Murtaza al-Zubaidi

Tradition 2

Abdullah b. Masood narrates – It was heavy for us when we asked the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) – Who will pray over you, O Prophet of Allah?

He (s.a.w.a.) wept and we also wept with him (s.a.w.a.).

He (s.a.w.a.) informed us, “May Allah forgive you and reward you with the best reward with respect to your (love of the) Prophet. When you have bathed me, applied camphor on me and shrouded me, then placed me at the edge of the grave and leave me alone for some time. Then the first one to offer prayers on me will be my friend, my companion – Jibraeel followed by Mikaaeel, Israafeel, Izraaeel (the Angel of Death) along with an army of angels. Then, the men from my Ahle Bait (a.s.) will pray over me, then their women and then you all will enter in groups and individually…”

Mustadrak alaa al-Sahihain vol. 3 p. 60
Al-Bedaayah wa Al-Nehaayah vol. 5 p. 253 by Ibn Kathir – amongst the foremost students of Ibn Taymiyyah
Dalael al-Nobuwwah vol. 7 p. 232 by Al-Baihaqi
Ithaaf al-Saadah al-Muttaqeen vol. 10 p. 290 by Murtaza al-Zubaidi

Tradition 3

Abdullah b. Umar narrates that the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) informed: One who visits me while he has no desire except my visitation (i.e. ziyaarat), then I am duty-bound to intercede for him on the Day of Resurrection.

Majma al-Zawaaed vol. 3 p. 2
Mo’jam al-Kabeer vol. 12 p. 291
Al-Durr al-Manthoor vol. 1 p. 237

There are several other traditions of this nature, but we have sufficed with the aforementioned reports documented by the most respected of Ahle Tasannun scholars.

Collectively, such traditions have important messages for the Muslims:

The Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) had knowledge of the unseen (Ilme Ghaib) which some Muslims deny. He (s.a.w.a.) was aware of the minutest details of his death as also other matters.

The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) enjoyed a far more honourable position in front of Allah than any mortal can ever conceive. He was not an ordinary person like some so-called Muslims claim and he was certainly not a mere postman delivering a letter as the Salafis claim! (We seek refuge in Allah)!

The Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) enjoyed a high position in his lifetime as also in his death and even after his death. Some so-called Muslims concede that the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) had a high status but it was limited to his life time.

“After death, he was like any other dead person and elevating his status is wrong and an innovation (bid’ah).” This view is rejected by the army of angels led by Allah who recited salawaat over him (a.s.) on his death. Clearly, it is erroneous and misleading to consider the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) an ordinary person in his lifetime, and to regard him as lifeless and worthless (God forbid) after his death.

Undertaking a journey solely for ziyaarat or visitation of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) has tremendous rewards. Such a journey pleases Allah and His angels. Allah and His Chosen Angels themselves perform the ziyarat. Prohibiting Muslims from such journeys is an innovation and a grave sin. Even earlier Muslims reprimanded Salafis like Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim al-Jauziyyah for suggesting that ziyaarat of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) should be avoided. These Salafis were even imprisoned and paraded on donkeys for their beliefs.

The Shias are accused of elevating the position of the Ahle Bait (a.s.) in general and that of Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) in particular, and lowering the status of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). But it is clear that Shias hold the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) in far higher respect than other Muslims. The aforementioned traditions in Ahle Tasannun books are among the most basic traditions recorded in honour of the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) in the books of Shias. Despite such traditions in their own books, some Muslims lower the position of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) to that of an ordinary Muslim and prevent Muslims from his (s.a.w.a.) ziyaarat. These so-called Muslims are guilty of debasing the position of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.), not the Shias. The Shias seek refuge in Allah from such actions.

Muslims in general claim that the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) did not leave behind a successor nor did the Muslims make any inquiries in this regard. This view collapses in the face of such traditions wherein Muslims asked the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) about who would bathe him, shroud him, bury him and offer prayers over him. The Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) did not hesitate from giving a detailed response. Therefore, it is impossible that the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) forgot to mention more important details like who would succeed him in caliphate.

Ali was the sole person to give the ritual bath with Ibn Abbas and Jibraeel (a.s.) assisting him. This further reinforces the argument of Ali’s caliphate as traditions report that only the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) successor can give him the ceremonial bath. This was the Sunnah of all past Prophets (a.s.) and all Imams (a.s.) right from Ali b. Abi Talib till his eleventh descendant, Imam Hasan b. Ali al-Askari (a.s.). Even if we toe the argument of these so-called Muslims that the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) did not appoint a successor, Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) was the only person qualified for the position by virtue of giving the ceremonial bath to the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The companions were not present in the funeral. In fact, they left the dead body of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) and were busy fighting in Saqeefah to grab power, thus belying their claim of true companionship. True companionship as shown by Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) is not limited to the lifetime, that too for a limited time. It involves being with the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) during the lifetime, being busy in the funeral arrangements after his demise and acting on his Sunnah thereafter. Selecting a caliph in Saqifah of Bani Saaedah can never be given priority over burying the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) of the nation who rescued the nation from certain misguidance and apostasy and whose funeral was attended by Jibraeel, Mikaaeel, Israafeel and Allah Himself. Succession of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) is not more important than the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) himself. If indeed it is, then the matter ought to have been settled in the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) lifetime.

Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) was already selected as Caliph by Allah and His Prophet (s.a.w.a.). Even if there were differences over his selection, they could wait till after the funeral. In any case, since the Bani Hashim were busy in the funeral, selecting the so-called caliph of Muslims without consulting them makes the selection of Abu Bakr void as there was no consensus at the time of selection. Consensus cannot be claimed after selection, especially since there are reports that even many Ansaar in Saqifah were rooting for Ali b. Abi Talib as the Caliph, nullifying the entire argument of consensus for Abu Bakr as it lacked the consent of two major groups, viz. the Ansaar and the Bani Hashim.

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology

#30

Unread post by Munira_RV » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:31 am

AMAFHH wrote: Ali was the sole person to give the ritual bath with Ibn Abbas and Jibraeel (a.s.) assisting him. This further reinforces the argument of Ali’s caliphate as traditions report that only the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) successor can give him the ceremonial bath. This was the Sunnah of all past Prophets (a.s.) and all Imams (a.s.) right from Ali b. Abi Talib till his eleventh descendant, Imam Hasan b. Ali al-Askari (a.s.). Even if we toe the argument of these so-called Muslims that the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) did not appoint a successor, Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) was the only person qualified for the position by virtue of giving the ceremonial bath to the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).
The red text above is the lie, quoted without any authentic reference.

"Ayatullah" are the authorised position in Ithna Asheri sect. Their Moharram orators invent (forge) anything to make their speech appealing, above is one similar case.

Lets check what authorised personality of Ithna Asheri have to say on matter above -
Book Name: Al Mahdi A.S.
Author: Ayatullah Sadruddin Sadar
"Hasan Askari's last ceremonial bath and funeral prayers were not offered by his son Mahdi."

By your line of argument, neither non-Shia's are correct nor Ithna Asheri's are correct - both are misguided.