Re: History and credibility of the journey of Bohra ideology
Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:07 am
Munira_RV wrote:The red text above is the lie, quoted without any authentic reference.AMAFHH wrote: Ali was the sole person to give the ritual bath with Ibn Abbas and Jibraeel (a.s.) assisting him. This further reinforces the argument of Ali’s caliphate as traditions report that only the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) successor can give him the ceremonial bath. This was the Sunnah of all past Prophets (a.s.) and all Imams (a.s.) right from Ali b. Abi Talib till his eleventh descendant, Imam Hasan b. Ali al-Askari (a.s.). Even if we toe the argument of these so-called Muslims that the Noble Prophet (s.a.w.a.) did not appoint a successor, Ali b. Abi Talib (a.s.) was the only person qualified for the position by virtue of giving the ceremonial bath to the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).
"Ayatullah" are the authorised position in Ithna Asheri sect. Their Moharram orators invent (forge) anything to make their speech appealing, above is one similar case.
Lets check what authorised personality of Ithna Asheri have to say on matter above -
Book Name: Al Mahdi A.S.
Author: Ayatullah Sadruddin Sadar
"Hasan Askari's last ceremonial bath and funeral prayers were not offered by his son Mahdi."
By your line of argument, neither non-Shia's are correct nor Ithna Asheri's are correct - both are misguided.
What are the tradition numbers? I was unable to locate any such tradition that says, Mohammad (the alleged son of Hasan askari) lead the funeral prayer of Hasan Askari.Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote: What about the tons of narrations mentioned in kitab al hujjah in al-kafi by Shaykh al kulayni?
MUHAMMAD IBN ISHAQ IBN YASAR IBN KHIYAR
born 704 A.D. (85 A.H.) in Medina and died d. 767 A.D. He was the earliest person to write the most comprehensive and most important biography of Muhammad, Sirat Rasullullah. What we have today is Ibn Hisham's recension, who died 60 years after Ibn Ishaq. Ibn Hisham said that he edited this biography and omitted certain details that were deemed too offensive to Muslims. Alfred Guillaume translated this edition into The Life of Muhammad and tried to reconstruct Ibn Ishaq's manuscript using quotations from other Muslim scholars. This biography provides one of the most important sources of Muhammad's life.
A helpful Index to The Life of Muhammad
Ibn Ishaq was was criticized by theologians for being imprecise in naming his sources (which goes to show that the isnad was not an important part of the biographical traditions at his time. This is confirmed by looking at other writings around the same time. The role of the isnad gain prominence only about a century later during theological disputes between the various schools). More information can be found at "Ibn Ishaq" Britannica Online
Ibn Ishaq is a controversial figure in the Muslim history. In what follows I will focus on his life and his work on the biography of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
His name is Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Yasar. He was born in Madinah about 80 AH/699 AD and died in Baghdad in 151AH/730AD. He is best known as Ibn Ishaq. His father and two uncles collected and transmitted information about the Prophet in Madinah.
Ibn Ishaq was a contemporary of the second generation of traditionists such as al-Zuhri, Asim ibn Umar ibn Qatadah and Abd Allah ibn Abi Bakr. He devoted himself to the study of Hadith from his youth. At the age of thirty he traveled to Egypt to attend the sessions of Yazid ibn Abi Habib.
In Egypt he was regarded as an authority because Yazid afterwards related Hadiths to Ibn Ishaq's authority. On his return to Madinah, he arranged and sorted out the materials he had collected. Al-Zuhri is reported to have said that Madinah would never lack knowledge as long as Ibn Ishaq was there. Al-Zuhri gathered from Ibn Ishaq the details of the Prophet's wars.
Yahya ibn Ma`in, an early Hadith authority, said: "Ibn Ishaq is firm in tradition." Abu Zur`ah (d. 281AH/860AD) said: "Older scholars drew from him and professional traditionists tested him and found him truthful."
Ibn al-Madini said: "Prophetic tradition originally lay with 6 men; then it became the property of 12, of whom Ibn Ishaq is one."
Al-Bukhari quoted him as an authority and Muslim cited him often.
On the other hand, other scholars accused him of being a Qadari and a Shi`i. In response to this accusation, scholars said that the narrations which might be interpreted as a support for Shi`isim were reported by Ibn Ishaq in the form of stories not as a support.
Ibn Ishaq excelled in the field of Hadith, Fiqh, Tafsir and Maghazi (the Prophet's wars).
Ibn Ishaq's biography of the Prophet is titled: The Book of the Campaigns or The Book of the Campaigns and the Prophet's Biography or The Book of the Beginning of the Campaigns. Al-Baka', a pupil of Ibn Ishaq, made two copies of the whole book, one of which must have reached Ibn Hisham (d. 218AH/797AD) whose text, abbreviated and annotated is the main source of our knowledge of the original work.
Throughout his work, Ibn Ishaq precedes every statement with the word za`ama or za`amu, he (they) alleged). It carries with it more than a hint that the statement may not be true, though it might be sound. This attitude reflects Ibn Ishaq's caution and fairness.
The phrase 'God knows best' speaks for itself and needs no comment. It is sometimes when the author records two conflicting traditions and is unable to say which one is correct. Another indication of the author's scrupulousness is the phrase 'God preserve me from attributing to the prophet's words which he did not use."
It is not always Ibn Ishaq's Sirah which is attacked but the man himself. Ibn Ishaq had another book titled Al-Sunan which if it ran counter to the schools of law that were in the process of development, the author would hope to escape strong condemnation.
By now, we can conclude that Ibn Ishaq is the main source of our knowledge about the Prophet as all later works relied on the narrations contained in his book which survives only in the recension of Ibn Hisham.
7th and early 8th century (1st century of Hijra):
Sahl ibn Abī Ḥathma (d. in Mu'awiya's reign, i.e., 41-60 AH), was a young companion of the Prophet. Parts of his writings on Maghazi are preserved in the Ansāb ofal-Baladhuri, the Ṭabaqāt of Ibn Sa'd, and the works of Ibn Jarir al-Tabari and al-Waqidi.
Abdullah ibn Abbas (d. 78 AH), a companion of Muhammad, his traditions are found in various works of Hadith and Sīra.
Saʿīd ibn Saʿd ibn ʿUbāda al-Khazrajī, another young companion, his writings have survived in the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal and Abī ʿIwāna, and the Tārīkh of al-Tabari.
ʿUrwa ibn al-Zubayr (d. 713). He wrote letters replying to inquiries of the Umayyad caliphs, Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan and al-Walid I, involving questions about certain events that happened in the time of the Prophet. Since Abd al-Malik did not appreciate the maghāzī literature, these letters were not written in story form. He is not known to have written any books on the subject. He was a grandson of Abu Bakr and the younger brother of Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr.
Saʿīd ibn al-Masīb al-Makhzūmī (d. 94 AH), a famous Tābiʿī and one of the teachers of al-Zuhri. His traditions are quoted in in the Six major hadith collections, and in the Sīra works of Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sayyid al-Nās, and others.
Abū Fiḍāla ʿAbd Allāh ibn Kaʿb ibn Mālik al-Anṣārī (d. 97 AH), his traditions were mentioned in Ibn Ishaq and al-Tabari.
Abbān ibn Uthmān ibn Affān (d. 101-105 AH), the son of Uthman. His traditions are transmitted through Malik ibn Anas in his Muwaṭṭaʾ, the Ṭabaqāt of Ibn Sa'd, and in the histories of al-Tabari and al-Yaʿqūbī.
ʿĀmir ibn Sharāḥīl al-Shaʿbī (d. 103 AH), his traditions were transmitted through Abu Isḥāq al-Subaiʿī, Saʿīd ibn Masrūq al-Thawrī, al-Aʿmash, Qatāda, Mujālid ibn Saʿīd, and others.
Which one Muffadi or Qutbi?Model of Mohamed PBUH practices = Maslak of Dawoodi Bohras.
Could you show the quotation you made from the book by Sadruddin Sadar please.Munira_RV wrote:@ Ozdundee,
Books and notes of Prophet Mohammad PBUH, Mola Ali a.s., Imam Hasan a.s., Imam Hussain a.s., Imam Ali Zainul Abideen a.s., Imam Bakir a.s. and Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s., their important belongings; including the sword of Mola Ali a.s. (the Zulfiquar) - these all are inherited by none but only Fatimi Imam Molana Hakim bi Amrillah a.s.
Above are the first hand records of Prophet and his above associates. No other documents (sahee or history) or any other records in the world could match the authenticity of above.
So only those who are associated with the Fatimi Imams have the absolute correct first hand knowledge of Prophetic Islam as prescribed by Allah.
neither you know who is Imam of this time no one knows, dont open pandora box of lies which your ayatullah has created for your self.The Bohras up until this time do not know who the Imam of their time is and so technically speaking (according to hadith) they will die in a state of jahiliyyat!
All such work is forged post the death of Hasan Askari sahib. And no literature before his death contains any grains on happening of only 12 Imams and 12th being Mahdi!Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote: what about the tons of works compiled by the classical Shi'a scholars that deal with the issue if Mahdaviyyat?
You claim that your 'Imam' Al-hakeem inherited the posessions of the Ahlulbayt (as) but infact according to your so-called 'Shaykh al muqaddas' Hasan Ali Sarangpurwala in his book about Ismail, he apparently sent his representatives to collect/dig out some of these things so this does not prove the 'inheritance' at all, but it infact proves that your fatimid 'Imams' stole them!
All historians including that of Ithna Asheri have reported that Imam Jaffer Sadique a.s. did the first nuss over the Imam Ismail a.s.The fact of the matter is that the Fatimid caliphs were only rulers, not divinely appointed 'Imams' as is made out to be. There is no concrete evidence for this and the concept of At-Tayyeb going into seclusion is a fairy-tale with no backing/grounding in the early works or ahadith of ahlulbayt (as).
There are absolutely NO hadith references whatsoever that prove the legitimacy of the fatimids and ZERO concrete evidence to suggest that the Prophet (saws) or early Imams (asws) had appointed them.
By that criterion those three should be considered as "Rightful Caliph" because their names are painted over the walls of 'Masjid a Nabwi' and precincts surrounding Kaba.Even the most anti-shi'a regimes had respect for our 12 holy Imams (asws) so much so that their blessed names are printed on the walls of Masjid an-nabawi for the world to see:
The official stand of Ithna Asheri is: "No one know where their Imam is, and have zero information about him." So for past 1200 years since the childless death of Hasan Askari sahib, all like you have died without knowing who their Imam look like or who is he! Hence, by your criterion they all died as Jahil.The Bohras up until this time do not know who the Imam of their time is and so technically speaking (according to hadith) they will die in a state of jahiliyyat!
Again, have you referred to the sources on this topic? There are many resources that highlight & explain that the concept of 12 imams (as) & the 12th of these being Al-Mahdi isn't something which just came up randomly. It has been established in the most earliest of sources going back to the time of the early Imams (as).
All such work is forged post the death of Hasan Askari sahib. And no literature before his death contains any grains on happening of only 12 Imams and 12th being Mahdi!
Proof?"The authority of Imam is further substantiated by the books and weapons of the Prophet Mohammad s.a.w.w. the Imam reportedly inherited. These are decisive in establishing the authority of an Imam for these are among the signs (alamat) that can establish the identity of the true Imam. The weapons can ONLY fit a divinely designated Imam. The books are important to Shi'i understanding of religious leadership since they authenticate the Imam claims to authority, there by nullifying rival claims to the Imamate."
1st Reference: Kafi fi Ilm al-Din by Mohammad b. Yaqub Kulayni (Tehran), (1:377-39)
2nd Reference: Liyakat N. Takim's book: The Heirs of The Prophet _ Charisma And Religious Authority in Shi'Ite Islam (year 2006), page # 28
An enemy about to be killed by Mola Ali a.s. begged Ali's sword Zulfiquar, he gave him, but enemy was unable to lift it up! "I'm unable to lift", he screamed! Ali replied, "I have given you sword, not given you my hand!" The unauthorised person cannot possess the weapons of Prophet (s), Ali (a) and their progeny (a).By that criterion those three should be considered as "Rightful Caliph" because their names are painted over the walls of 'Masjid a Nabwi' and precincts surrounding Kaba.
Ok since you mentioned zulfiqar specifically within this context, can you prove that your fatimid 'Imams' ever possessed noble sword? Please post the ahadith, their sanad & original arabic please.
I'm not denying that the true Imam must have certain possessions of the Prophet (Saws), but it is certainly not the only criteria. There are many other established criteria of a true divinely appointed Imam within Islam that must be fulfilled.
Does it mention in the narrations that it is the location that is inherited?
You have claimed that Al-hakim knew the precise location, but how do we know he wasn't informed by other rulers or companions around him? Today, the zionists claim that they know the exact location of the books of black magic & communication with jinns that Nabi sulayman (as) hid under the original temple and now they are trying to dig them out.
So does this mean that these people are just and Aadil? No of course not! From the actions of al-hakeem in his unjust rule, where he demolished churches & used to treat the non-shi'as harshly, it is sufficient from this to say he wasn't a true Imam at all.
As I've shown you before in our PM exchanges, we have riwayat that confirm our Imams (as) did indeed have possessions of these tabaruukat, but it is unfortunate for you that you don't even know where these items are. You didn't know even know who your present Imam is let alone knowing in whose hands these items are in!? Are they in Mufaddal Saifuddin's hands? Khuzaima qutbuddin? Go ask them.
I think my above quotation in bold is suffice for this.
For two hundred and fifty plus years from every mosques in Medina and Mecca, the Friday Khutba was recited in the names of Fatimi Imams a.s. So by your criterion, the Juma Khutba recitation possess more weight than currently written names of your Imams over wall!
Again, as I've mentioned, we know who our Imam is and he is in the current state of major occultation. He will re-appear by the permission of Allah SWT in which he will establish the just rule of Islam.The official stand of Ithna Asheri is: "No one know where their Imam is, and have zero information about him." So for past 1200 years since the childless death of Hasan Askari sahib, all like you have died without knowing who their Imam look like or who is he! Hence, by your criterion they all died as Jahil.
My sincere request to you: Please read books and the other side of the argument with an open mind.