Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

If you have questions or want to share knowledge about Dawoodi Bohra religions and rituals please post them here. Any discussion outside the framework of Dawoodi Bohra beliefs and tradition is not allowed. This forum is primarily for sharing of information and knowledge.
fayyaaz
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#61

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:39 pm

anajmi,

Quran says that you are to obey those in authority over you. It does not matter how they got the authority. Every Muslim will worship that authority according to their interpretation. For example, you worship Yazid and, in contrast, Bohras worship Husain. Neither you nor Bohras are enlightened enough to abandon Yazid's and Husain's progeny. Both of you bring Quran in support of your stance. One thing neither of you will do is to give chance to freely elect and unseat those in authority over you.

Here is an email going around describing leaders of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a typical corrupt Muslim nation splintered by tribalism. A poignant cri-de-coeur from a Pakistani worker in the Arabian Gulf.

email:

"Hello Mr Asif Ezdi: Ref your recent article at News International.

You all MUST openly state that Pak survives on injection of Billions/$$ from Gulf-govts/WB/ADB/etc, because at-least 95% of Federal-Parliament( & 95% of Provincial Assemblies) are CORRUPT-Lords(Feudal, Industrial, Retd Generals/Hi-Bureaucrats, etc) & do NOT pay Taxes, therefore they are the CRIMINALS destroying Pak.

We stupid professionals have been paying taxes for decades, & each one of us overseas has sent millions to Pak, after working for decades in Burning-Sun & Blizzard-Snows.

Back in 50’s/60’s, Corrupt were Criminals & were afraid; but Today in Pak the Corrupt/Criminals are in-Power(in Fed/Provincial Assemblies, & Military & Bureaucracy & Media."

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#62

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:07 pm

Quran says that you are to obey those in authority over you. It does not matter how they got the authority.
Google search is great. It is able to find relevant help topics within MSDN that even Microsoft is unable to find. So, I did a google search on your post looking for the ayah reference that says you need to obey the authority over you and it does not matter how they got the authority. Couldn't find it. Did you forget the post the reference? Or you just scared to be exposed once more?

Well, let me spare you the ordeal. You first purposely misinterpret the Quran and then you beat up on your own misinterpretations. Everything else you post is just noise.

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#63

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:07 pm

For example, you worship Yazid and, in contrast, Bohras worship Husain.
Only half right. Bohras do worship Husain. I do not worship Yazid. You need me to worship Yazid because otherwise, your arguments fall apart. So, a Yazid worshipping anajmi is your straw man. Every time you use the straw man, you expose the weakness in your arguments.

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#64

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:28 pm

I would suggest people look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect for a potential explanation of why our resident fanatics (Bohra and Salafi) appear so stupid and illiterate to the rest of us.
The fool completely misses the point of the article. According to the article, the incompetent think of themselves as competent and the competent think of themselves as not that competent. There is no scenario where the supposed incompetent appear as stupid and illiterate to those that perceive themselves as superior. Hence, we can safely conclude that Biradar falls into the category of the incompetent who perceive themselves as more competent, than they actually are, based upon his understanding of the article. :wink:

fayyaaz
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#65

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:30 pm

anajmi wrote:
For example, you worship Yazid and, in contrast, Bohras worship Husain.
I do not worship Yazid.
Of course you worship Yazid. No use denying it. How else did you get the epithet Yazid-lover? :)

You are 100% incorrect. You worship Yazid. Bohras do not actually worship Husain. THe latter has been dethroned in favor of Mufaddal Mola. Mufaddal is Ilah al-arz. Mola, Mola. Mufaddal Mola. :D

Till next week, then.

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#66

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:34 pm

Running away with your tail between your legs without providing the reference from the Quran!!

And once more the "intellectual" from western "civilization" bites the dust. :mrgreen:

humanbeing
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#67

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:34 am

anajmi wrote:Quran wasn't revealed to satisfy people..
Request to differ, there are ayats, which support men for multiple marriage and keeping concubines ! considering the times wherein Quran was revealed and famous arguments which says that multiple marriages and concubines were a common norm in pre & post Islamic era. It changed the outlook, but practices remained.

I am not an expert and merely presenting my POV or thoughts. I am open to discussion and not a debate or fight. My knowledge is limited, but understanding is fair. Considering simple human psychology of men and women, does polygamous marriages and keeping concubines promote justice and fair treatment of women.. All the talks of compassion, care, respect, rights and protection is well understood and accepted. But the angle of sexual relations and the dynamics it causes between man and his wives and concubine is worth a discussion. For once try and discuss these complexity of relationships without heavy arguments of religions. And discuss it from psychological perspectives. Islam defines roles of men and women, also emphasis their importance respectively, A man can have multiple partners, while women cannot in fact it is frowned upon as promiscuous and of course the popular arguments of parentage of offsprings. My question or concern is, all in the name of compassion, daawa, respect, protection, rights blah blah blah .. what makes this strategy so popular. Can one see the convenience of the men to have their carnal instincts / habit of those times sanctioned religiously and stamp of legality to continue with their practice albeit in guise of now new commandments. Then these acts or habits are defended as norm of that era or commands from god or political reasons or compassion, rights, protection etc etc etc. head or tails men have all the fun ehh !

Would like to know women’s opinion on this kind of practice be it from that era or in today’s times.

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#68

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:09 am

Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to tell you anything that you haven't already heard in this matter. I do hope that you find the answers that you are looking for elsewhere.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#69

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:41 pm

Sister Munira,

Please open the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahrbanu

See who was Sherbanu, the wife of Imam Hussein before she married him. She was a Persian Princess brought to Medinah as a slave when Umar conquered Persia (although the link is not sure which of the Caliphas had conquered Persia, but I had read it was Umar). She was hence a bond maid and Mowla Ali AS chose her for Imam Hussein AS.

Now, I do not pay much attention to wikipedia but the information I am quoting here was contributed by Shia sources, I know you and some others here do not like Ithna'Asheris but the sad truth is with the split 90% of bohoras who are leaving the faith are joining them.

Also, for your information, Imam Muizz AS was married to a Russian Princess who was a Melkite christian. Imam appointed her brothers to the Melkite Church as Priests in Egypt.

Imams can make marry anyone they choose. In fact, Imam Mustansirbillah AS mother was a black Sudanese woman.

So please let us not pretend to be holier than thou.

fayyaaz
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#70

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:59 pm

Mr Javedhjuma,

Sister Munira claims that her Imams (whom she calls Fatimi Imams) had Muslima as their mother. The point she is making is not about Imam's wife being a Muslima but their mothers being Muslima.

Could you confirm or refute that mothers of her Imams were all Muslima? Was Sherebanu, wife of Imam Husain, the mother of Imam Zainul Abideen? Was Imam Muiz's wife, the Russian, the mother of Imam Muiz's successor, Imam Aziz?

Please identify all her Imam's mothers as being Muslima or non-Muslima?

Her Imams, of course, could have had multiple wives at the same time. As you know 4 are allowed in Islam so they could have had serial polygamies each time upto 4 wives.

I am asking you because you appear to be very knowledgeable about this matter. Thank you.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#71

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:03 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:Sister Munira,

Please open the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahrbanu

See who was Sherbanu, the wife of Imam Hussein before she married him. She was a Persian Princess brought to Medinah as a slave when Umar conquered Persia (although the link is not sure which of the Caliphas had conquered Persia, but I had read it was Umar). She was hence a bond maid and Mowla Ali AS chose her for Imam Hussein AS.

Now, I do not pay much attention to wikipedia but the information I am quoting here was contributed by Shia sources, I know you and some others here do not like Ithna'Asheris but the sad truth is with the split 90% of bohoras who are leaving the faith are joining them.

Also, for your information, Imam Muizz AS was married to a Russian Princess who was a Melkite christian. Imam appointed her brothers to the Melkite Church as Priests in Egypt.

Imams can make marry anyone they choose. In fact, Imam Mustansirbillah AS mother was a black Sudanese woman.

So please let us not pretend to be holier than thou.
I came across an interesting article on the subject which of course is debatable as under :-


Did Wife of Imam Hussein, Shar Banu Ever existed?

Who Was mother of Imam Zainul Abedeen?, Not ShaharBanu, She never existed.

When under Hz. Saad Bin Abi Waqaas[ra] Muslim armies decimated Persian empire of Yazdhfred III, it is recorded by Shia historians that one of the daughters of Yazdhgred by name of ShaharBanu was also captured, brought to Medina and was ordered to be sold by the Khalif Umar[ra]. When Syedna Hz. Ali Ibn Abi Talib[ra] found out about this, he[ra] went and bought her and then married her to his son Syedna Hz. Hussien Ibn Ali[ra], out of this Union 4th imam was born Imam Zainul Abedeen[rta].


The Age of Yazdhgred III when he took over Sassanian empire in Iran:

On June/9/630 Sharhbaraz daughter of Khousro II [590-628] mother of Yazdhgred III died. She was 26th monarch of Persia from 629-631, she was made queen so that when Yazdhgred III attain majority [age], she will vacate the throne for him. Sharhbaraz was replaced by her sister Azarmidokht, who was replaced by Hormizd VI, He was followed by Yazdhgred III [father of Shahar Banu] at age of 16 yrs, after 5 years of internal power struggle and the assassination of his grand father Khosrau II in 628.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics ... Qadisiyyah"

Marriage of Yazdhgred III

At age of 16yrs Yazdhgred III took over the throne of Persia, in 635 at age of 19 yrs he proposed an Alliance with Byzantine emperor Heraclius, to unite against common enemy Muslims, According to old Roman tradition, to seal the Alliance Emperor Heraclius married his daughter to Yazdhgred III.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics ... Qadisiyyah"


YEAR OF DEATH of Yazdhgred father of "Shahar Banu", wife of Imam Hussein.

In 651 A.D., the Persian king Yazdgerd III was captured and beheaded by Arab invaders in what is today's Turkmenistan. His son, Pirooz survived and fled east to China. Here's an account from Chinese historians.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/arti ... _china.php


Yazdhgred II 438-457

Now that shia have grown a bit wise as Muslims are more educated on the history thanks to internet, one Shia site have started to claim that imaginary princess of persia "Shaher Banu: mother of Imam Zainul Abadeen"was daughter of Yazdhgred II who was king of Persia from 438 till 457 CE, we ask these Shia what was the age of this Princess of Persia when she married Imam Hussein some time in 633CE when Muslim decimated the Persian empire and Yazdhgred III was in power.


http://www.persianmirror.com/culture/hi ... ssanid.cfm


Does Shahr Banu[/u] Wife Of Imam Hussein Exist?

"Neither do any of the scholars of ancient history that have chronicled, at times with great attention to detail, the invasion of Persia by Muslim troops and the fate of the last Sasanian sovereign and her family, established any relationship between the wife of Imam Hussein and one of the daughters of Yezdgred III"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahrbanu


Then who was Shahr Banu Wife of Imam Hussein

Earlier sources such as Ibn Sad and Ebn Qotyaba describe Husayn's wife as a slave, originally from Sindh and make no reference to her being a princess. The first scholar to explicitly describe her as being of the Persian royal family was the 9th Century Arab philologist Mobarrad.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahrbanu


The Year of Battle For Persia [Battle of Qadisiyah]

Most of the Iraqi tribes were Christians at the time of the Islamic conquest. They decided to pay the jizya, the tax required of non-Muslims living in Muslim-ruled areas, and were not further disturbed. The Iranians rallied briefly under their hero, Rustam, and attacked the Arabs at Al Hirah, west of the Euphrates. There, they were soundly defeated by the invading Arabs. The next year, in 635, the Arabs defeated the Iranians at the Battle of Buwayb. Finally, in May 636 at Al Qadisiyah, a village south of Baghdad on the Euphrates, Rustam was killed. The Iranians, who outnumbered the Arabs six to one, were decisively beaten. From Al Qadisiyah the Arabs pushed on to the Sassanid capital at Ctesiphon (Madain).


http://historymedren.about.com/library/ ... tiraq4.htm


When did the Capital of Persian Empire Fall

The Battle of Qadisiyah is one of the major decisive battles of world history. It sealed the fate of the Sasanian Empire just as the Battle of Yarmuk had sealed the fate of the Byzantine Empire in the west. Two years after Qadisiyah, Sa'd (ra) went on to take the Sasanian capital. By then he had recovered his health. The taking of Ctesiphon was accomplished after a brilliant crossing of the Tigris River while it was in flood. Sa'd (ra) has thus gone down in the annals of history as the Hero of Qadisiyah and the Conqueror of Ctesiphon


http://www.beautifulislam.net/sahabah/s ... qas_p.html


Where was Yazdgred III Killed in 651 A.D.:

The former Sassanian king of Mesopotamia Yazdegerd (Yazdgird) III is murdered in a Persian miller's hut near Merv His demise marks the end of the Zoroastrian Empire


http://www.answers.com/topic/7th-century


Where was Yazdhgred III after the fall Sassanian Capital in 638/639

The early anti Arab protesters are too many to count. The last Sasanian Emperor, Yazdgerd III, himself can be counted as the first fighter against the Arab domination. Following the fall of Ctesiphon and the Battle of Nahavand, the emperor retreated to the land of his ancestors in Persia. The city of Istakhr, hometown of Ardeshir I, was the perfect place for the defeated emperor to start a resistance. Aided by his trusty advisor Farokhzad, Yazdgerd created a [Second Court in Istakhr and continued to negotiate with the invading Arab armies (ca. 35 AH/656 AD). From there, he directed diplomatic and political initiations to stop the Arabs from further penetrating the country. For awhile, he was successful in keeping parts of Khuzistan and Persia from being taken over, but was eventually forced to flee for his life. He escaped to Khorasan and Sogdiana, hoping to reach China and ask for the help from his ally, the Emperor of China. His dreams were cut short when he was assassinated in Marv (Margiana) (ca. 70 AH/690 AD) Yazdgerd's Second Court survived him by about 15 years. Farokhzad called himself the king and issued coins and continued to negotiate with the Arabs. We are not sure of Farokhzad and the Second Courts' end, but it probably was eventually taken over by the Arabs.


http://www.iranologie.com/history/history7.html


The fact of History is that Emperor Yazdhgred III and all the members of his family including any of his daughters left the capital city before Muslim armies entered the city, He was killed in 690 CE, his family was never captured and he was succeeded by Farokhzad. So we ask Shia from where did they create "Princess of Persia" wife of Imam Hussein, mother of Imam Zain ul Abideen, Shar Banu?

fayyaaz
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#72

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:27 pm

Of course, it is the Shia belief that Imam Zainul Abideen's mother was Sherebanu.

It only remains to confirm that Sherebanu was neither a Christian nor a Jewess, because only those two could have married an Imam without converting to Islam. So, it only remains to be confirmed if the mother of any Fatimid Imam was a Christian or Jewess. Any other lady marrying an Imam would necessarily be a Muslima or a convert to Islam, I think.

As I wrote earlier, cult versions of history need not be factually accurate. In fact they never are. That applies to all histories of Islam, Christianity and Hinduism any any other cult.

fayyaaz
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#73

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:07 am

It is Munira's contention that all Fatimi Imams had Muslim mothers but (some?) Ithnaashari Imams (Imam Musa Kazim onwards to mythical 12th) had concubines (bondsmaid) as their mothers.

For sake of completeness, mothers of Fatmid Imams (i.e. upto 21 Imams of Bohras, not counting the mythical post-21 Imams) can be categorized into 3 groups:

1. Muslim (Born of Muslim parents or of a Convert to Islam)
2. Christian or Jew.
3. Concubine (Bondsmaid). This is the category of slaves with whom Muslim owners can have sexual relationships outside of marriage and is sanctioned by the Quran. These are the women whom your 'right hand possesses'.

For Munira's contention to be true 21 Imam of the Bohras must have mothers in Category 1. And (some?) Ithnaashari Imams must have concubine as their mothers, category 3.

I have read that Imam Hakim's mother was a Christian. If that is true, I am sure it will be refuted by Munira.

Now it is upto JavedhJuma and Munira to give us history lessons to confirm or refute Munira's assertion.

fayyaaz
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#74

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:28 pm

fayyaaz wrote: For sake of completeness, mothers of Fatmid Imams (i.e. upto 21 Imams of Bohras, not counting the mythical post-21 Imams) can be categorized into 3 groups:

1. Muslim (Born of Muslim parents or of a Convert to Islam)
2. Christian or Jew.
3. Concubine (Bondsmaid). This is the category of slaves with whom Muslim owners can have sexual relationships outside of marriage and is sanctioned by the Quran. These are the women whom your 'right hand possesses'.
To be clear, a concubine could be a Muslim, Christian, Jew or a non-Muslim such as a Hindu, Zoroastrian etc. So if an Imam's mother is a concubine then, according to Munira, she ought to be a Muslim.

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#75

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:14 am

Is it possible that the bohra imam went into hiding because he found issues with his motherhood?

humanbeing
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#76

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:38 am

fayyaaz wrote: To be clear, a concubine could be a Muslim, Christian, Jew or a non-Muslim such as a Hindu, Zoroastrian etc. So if an Imam's mother is a concubine then, according to Munira, she ought to be a Muslim.
As per my information, concubines cannot be muslim, moment then embrace islam, they must be freed. Or like they get upgraded / formalized as wife.

fayyaaz
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#77

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:34 am

humanbeing wrote: As per my information, concubines cannot be muslim, moment then embrace islam, they must be freed. Or like they get upgraded / formalized as wife.
That is the first time I have heard it. If that is so, why do we still have Muslim slaves, men and women, in that purest of Muslim Wahhabiland, Saudi Arabia?

Munira_RV
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#78

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:24 am

Molatina Shaharbanu per Fatimi Dawat literature was Muslima before the conquest of Iran, and Mola Ali a.s. took part in Iran war to get her rescued.

Few forum members have alleged mother of some of the Imam were non-Muslima - please provide the proof? Where is proof! No proof!

But the Ithna's own Ayatulla's, their authority, (e.g. Aytullah Sadrullah Sadr in his book 'Imam Mahdi') confirms mother of Ithna Asheri Imam's being bond-maid! Indeed book '14 Masoomeen' (Ithna's book) confirms that Musa Kazim never ever married to any Muslima!!! It is Prophet Mohammad (s) sunnat to have a Muslima wife, so Musa Kazim sahib has not pursued the sunnat of Prophet Mohammad (s).

JavedhJuma
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#79

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:34 pm

Molatina Shaharbanu per Fatimi Dawat literature was Muslima before the conquest of Iran, and Mola Ali a.s. took part in Iran war to get her rescued.

Few forum members have alleged mother of some of the Imam were non-Muslima - please provide the proof? Where is proof! No proof!

But the Ithna's own Ayatulla's, their authority, (e.g. Aytullah Sadrullah Sadr in his book 'Imam Mahdi') confirms mother of Ithna Asheri Imam's being bond-maid! Indeed book '14 Masoomeen' (Ithna's book) confirms that Musa Kazim never ever married to any Muslima!!! It is Prophet Mohammad (s) sunnat to have a Muslima wife, so Musa Kazim sahib has not pursued the sunnat of Prophet Mohammad (s).
Molatina Shaharbanu per Fatimi Dawat literature was Muslima before the conquest of Iran, and Mola Ali a.s. took part in Iran war to get her rescued.
Please quote your sources. If you have Fatimi Dawat literature in your possession, please quote the author and the book.

First of all, before the conquest of Iran, main religion was "parsi". Remember Salman Farsi?

I provided you the link about Imam Muizz's wife who was a Christian. Here it is again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah

Scroll down a little.

As regards of the Prophet's Sunnah of marrying Muslima woman, I have told you he had married Sophia the Jewess and Mary the Copt.

Please read Sura XXXIII ayat 52 and footnote 3754 of Qur'an by Yusuf Ali:

It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women After this, nor to change them for other wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): And God doth watch over all things.

Footnote: This was revealed in AG &. Afer that the Prophet did not marry again, except the hanmaiden Mary the Copt, who was sent as a present by the Christian Muqauqas of Tgypt. She bacame the mother of Ibrahim, who died in his infancy.
Prove to me Imam Ali AS fought the war in Iran and "rescued???? Hazarat Sherbanu.

Facts are Hazarat Omar, invaded Iran (it is a historical fact). A few months ago I went to an Afghani exhibition in Washington, and it fully supported Hazarat Umar conquered Iran. Before the conquest (and you may like this), there was diversity in Iran. After the Muslim invasion, people were forced to convert to Islam.

He brought back slaves among whom was Hazarat Sherbanu, who was a royal Princess (this was not part of the exhinition). Mowla Ali AS bought her as a slave and married her to his son.

Musa Kazim was born of a slave, i.e. Imam Jafar-as-Sadiq was married to a slave woman also. Imam Ismaili AS's mother had royal blood too.

Please do not distort history to prove your point. If you are right, please put it on Wikipedia or somewhere else so people can access it and learn something. Just saying "Fatimi Dawat literature" says this and that without showing proof is not right.

This is called forcing your views on others. That is not right.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#80

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:45 pm

Let us be rational. Allah SWT made man People made slaves.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#81

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:11 pm

Munira_RV wrote:Molatina Shaharbanu per Fatimi Dawat literature was Muslima before the conquest of Iran, and Mola Ali a.s. took part in Iran war to get her rescued.
I thought you would provide a long version of your history alongwith evidence to demolish the claim of the scholar who states that Shere banu didn't exist at all but instead of that you come up with a stereotype one liner "As per Fatimi Dawat literature" Molatina Shere Banu was a Muslima.

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#82

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:26 pm

And since I am not using any violence, I can safely say that Fatimi Dawat literature is nothing more than mythology.

Munira_RV
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#83

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:24 pm

anajmi wrote:And since I am not using any violence, I can safely say that Fatimi Dawat literature is nothing more than mythology.
You live in 'fools paradise' of your own defective thoughts which you assumes to be (self created) dogmas of Islam.

Most of your Siha-Sitta is collection of forgery and lies to con people, so to paint Abbasi caliphate as Islamic caliphate! Thus you can safely conclude it to be mythology.

Munira_RV
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#84

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:04 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
Munira_RV wrote:Molatina Shaharbanu per Fatimi Dawat literature was Muslima before the conquest of Iran, and Mola Ali a.s. took part in Iran war to get her rescued.
I thought you would provide a long version of your history alongwith evidence to demolish the claim of the scholar who states that Shere banu didn't exist at all but instead of that you come up with a stereotype one liner "As per Fatimi Dawat literature" Molatina Shere Banu was a Muslima.
Your floor mill is running with loud noise. But it is of no use because no floor is getting out from grinding!

Fatimi Dawat is the benchmark because only Fatimi Imams have received books and weapons of Prophet Mohammad (s), Mola Ali (a), Imam Hasan, ... till Imam Jaffer Sadik (a), and these never ever came in possession of your Sufi's, Abbasi caliphs or Ithna Asheri Imams. Hence, Fatimi literature is the benchmark of true Islam and one liner of it too is sufficient to establish truth of any matter.

anajmi
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Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#85

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:12 pm

Actually imam ali or hassan or hussain till jafar sadik had no clue what fatimi dawat is. It was created long after them. There is a reason why it is not called islamic Dawat. Cause it is not. It is complete fiction. And i say this with a lot of respect and no intention of any kind of violence .

I respect everyone. Although i consider them all to be utter bull. :wink:

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#86

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:47 pm

JavedhJuma wrote: Please quote your sources. If you have Fatimi Dawat literature in your possession, please quote the author and the book.
Book: Uyunal Akhbar by 19th Dai mutlaq Syyedna Idrees a.q.

I provided you the link about Imam Muizz's wife who was a Christian. Here it is again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah
Your source of Wikipedia is quoting 'Delia Cortese and Simonetta Calderini (2006).' These books written few years back or otherwise have only one agenda to forge lies to paint progeny of Prophet Mohammad (s) in evil color! Quoting from historians who never even went to Cairo (the capital of Fatimi Islamic sultanate), who are paid to do propaganda is not reliable and not trustworthy.

Just one following thing will be sufficient in context of Syyedna Imam Hakim a.s. from the Ithna Asheri source - The most reputed (even more reputed than Ithna Asheri Imams for Ithna is compiler of Nahjul Balagha: Sharif Radi sahib.

Sharif Radi wrote a poetry in praise of Imam Hakim a.s.: You are like bright shinning moon, and I (an Ithna Asheri) is astray!

As regards of the Prophet's Sunnah of marrying Muslima woman, I have told you he had married Sophia the Jewess and Mary the Copt.
It seems you intentionally want to not see the truth and want to live in world of comfortable assumptions of Ithna Imams being your rescuer!

Let me reiterate - Prophet Mohammad (s) married with normal women and bond-maid. Hz. Musa Kazim NEVER married to any normal women!

Marrying normal-women was sunnat of Prophet (s), which your Musa Kazim sahib never practiced. As per '14 masoomeen' (Ithna Asheri book) he married to 17 women, all were only bond-maid!

Prove to me Imam Ali AS fought the war in Iran and "rescued???? Hazarat Sherbanu.
Fatimi literature (Uyunal Akbar) says so. Remember only Fatimi Imams inherited the books of Mola Ali a.s. including his sword Zulfiquar and books of Imam Hussain a.s. all were inherited only by Fatimi Imams. None of these came to Ithna Asheri Imams or Abbasi caliph! So what Fatimi literature says is the words of Mola Ali and Imam Hussain a.s. Anything contrary is all lies. Only Fatim's have FIRST HAND AND COMPLETE AND CORRECT History.

Musa Kazim was born of a slave, i.e. Imam Jafar-as-Sadiq was married to a slave woman also. Imam Ismaili AS's mother had royal blood too.
Not only Musa Kazim, but after him his all progeny till the last person in his progeny Hasan Askari sahib - all are born of bond-maids.

Prophet Mohammad (s) did not marry any other women till mother of Fatima a.s.; Khadeeja (a.q.) was alive - this indicates the progeny of Prophet will be from Khadeeja.

Likewise Mola Ali a.s. never married to any other women till mother of Hussain a.s.; Fatima was alive. Indicating the ahlul bayt will be from progeny of Fatima.

Likewise Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. never married to any other women till the mother of Imam Ismail a.s.; Fatima a.q. was alive. This indicate the ahlul bayt will be Imam Sadik's son: Imam Ismail a.s.

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#87

Unread post by Munira_RV » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:12 am

anajmi wrote:Actually imam ali or hassan or hussain till jafar sadik had no clue what fatimi dawat is.
Fabricating own assumptions and considering it as true Islam! That is what make you and Yazeed, Awwal, Sani and Salis alike.
It was created long after them.
It was created when Mola Ali a.s. was announced Prophet's successor on 18th Zilhijj Hijri 10.

There is a reason why 'Jamat-ud-dawa', 'Sunni', 'Wahabi' are called by their names and not called 'Islamic Dawa', or 'Islam', Cause it is not. They all are complete fiction. And i say this with a lot of respect and no intention of any kind of violence .

I respect everyone. Although i consider them all to be utter bull. :wink:

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#88

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 am

Munira bahen with all due respect I think I will end our debate here.

Your hatred for the Ithnas (they hate Nizari Ismailis more than you, but I keep an open mind, nevertheless and don't hate them) is overwhelming. Uyyunal Akhbar was written by Syedna Idriss years ago and since then more research has been done by different writers so you cannot depend on Uyunnal Akhbar only.

If you want to continue your hatred towards the Ithnas, who am I to stop you. You are hurting yourself. And if you choose to remain a frog in the pond instead of widening your horizons, who am I to stop you?

Even when I produce something from the Qur'an like the Sura re:Mary the copt, you refuse to listen.

So please I'll leave you to your beliefs and give us the space to believe what we choose.

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#89

Unread post by Munira_RV » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:25 pm

Jawedjuma,

There was no "nuss" done by 11th Ithna Imam Hz. Hasan Askari sahib over his "imaginary" or non-imaginary son Hz. Mohammad sahib! This info is per your Usul Kafi and others!

The dispute between Ismaili's and Ithna is over the nuss by the Imam Sadik a.s.! So you see there was no 'nuss' done by Ithna's 11th Imam!

Imam has to succeed by a son and on whom he confer the nuss. As there was no son of Hasan Askari sahib, this proves the entire chain of Ithna Imams were impostors!

The 'nuss' is such a crucial thing that Quran says to Mohammad PBUH, if it is not conferred then all exercise and hard work till date will go in waste. And when Prophet declared nuss on the ground of Gadeer-a-Khum Allah send verse of acknowledgement, "Now the deen is perfected."

Hasan Askari sahib not making nuss over his alleged son is inexcusable and unambiguous fact of the Ithna chain being that of impostor.

Prophet Mohammad (s) or Mola Ali (a) till Imam Sadik (a) - no one asked their followers to write their wishes over paper and throw it in sea / river and that will reach the Imam of time! This innovation doesn't make any rational sense! Please think about it.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

#90

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:46 pm

It was created when Mola Ali a.s. was announced Prophet's successor on 18th Zilhijj Hijri 10.
By whom? Stan Lee?