Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

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Biradar
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Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#1

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:02 pm

After the person of the Prophet, Maulana Ali is the most revered personality for the Shia. The sayings of Ali and his sermons, letters and exhortations are great source of inspiration to Shia and others and over the centuries have been collected and studied carefully. For example, the Nahaj-al Balagha is a great collection of mostly exoteric sermons, letters and saying of Ali. Also see the recent book by Baazat Tahera Qutbuddin on the sayings of Ali.

A less well known aspect of Ali's oratory are his esoteric sermons, in which he refers to his own station in lofty and divine terms. Recently, STF in a waaz mentioned the sermon of Ali narrated by Asbagh bin Nubáta. In this, Ali refers to himself in many strange and mysterious ways. It starts off as: (you can Google the rest on your own)

M. Ali wrote:I am the brother of the Messenger of God and the Heir to His knowledge, the treasury of His wisdom, and the Companion of His secret. There is not a letter revealed by God in any of His Books whose intention does not point towards me. He hath vouchsafed unto me the knowledge of what was from eternity and what will happen unto the Day of Resurrection. To me hath been vouchsafed the knowledge of past and future generations and their genealogies. And to Me hath been given a thousand keys to a thousand doors. The knowledge of the destinies of all things hath been granted unto me. All these Gifts shall continue to flow through my Appointed Successors (wasi's) as long as day is followed by night and night followed by day and until all things return to God. For verily, He is the True Inheritor of all things.
Another esoteric sermon is the Sermon of the Two Gulfs (Tuttinjiya) which has similar themes and topics. Another interesting piece is called "Hadîth Kumayl" or "Hadîth al-Haqîqa", a very short and dense conversation Ali had with his close companion Kumayl.

At first sight, these sermons seem very unlike something Ali would say. I should mention, of course, that not all Shia consider these hadith and sermons as authentic, and hence they are not found in the Nahaj al-Balagah. However, they have continued to form the basis of esoteric and gnostic speculations in Shia Islam through the centuries. Most notably, major sects of Shia, including both the Twelvers and Ismailis, have used these to understand the secrets of Imamat and high station of not only Ali, but all the Panjaatan, who, according to these groups, occupy a unique place in the cosmic order.

Even though they are not mentioned often in sermons, as STF's waaz shows, they are studied and contemplated by Shia, including Bohras. My goal in this post is to encourage people to read these sermons and attempt to understand their message. Of course, I know that many orthodox Sunnis, for example, would reject them and even think they are blasphemous, but I suggest at least giving it a read and spending some time studying.

Post your thoughts and comments here, and perhaps we can all learn something new, from different perspectives.

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anajmi
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#2

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:08 pm

A couple of points
There is not a letter revealed by God in any of His Books whose intention does not point towards me.
Not sure what that means. If this is truly the case, then every letter of the Quran is for Ali?

And this is the key of this passage and i believe the reason why this passage according to me is a fabrication.
All these Gifts shall continue to flow through my Appointed Successors (wasi's)
The Dais who claim to be the Successors of Ali now can also claim to the "intention" of every letter of the Quran. Blasphemy? Most certainly.



Aymelek
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#3

Unread post by Aymelek » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:00 am

Br. Anajmi,

Indeed most of Ismaili taawil refers to Imam and their importance. How much of this can be extended to Dai's, well that's a different ball game altogether.

Hadith of Imam Jaffar Us Sadik.. that Imams can speak about a word of Quran in seven ways or seventy, if required. Goes onto show the vast scope of Taawil and this is what the clergy preys upon.



Humsafar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#4

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:30 pm

Let's assume that this esoteric sermon is true, what does it actually mean? Obviously, it was not meant to be taken literally.

If not authentic, then it seems to be a product of the Ghulat movement which attached to Ahl al Bayt all sorts of divine attributes.

Either way, such esoteric, taawil-infested wisdom is designed to confuse and obfuscate, not enlighten or elucidate Islamic thought. Nor can it, in my opinion, benefit believers in real spiritual terms. If anything, as anajmi and aymelek mentioned, it gives the Bohra Guru the licence to do as he pleases -- and justify it by way of taawil.

As a general note, all esoteric hair-splitting should be confined to scholarship in ivory towers and to private musings. As far as I can tell, none of its public preaching has benefitted common believers in any way.



Aymelek
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#5

Unread post by Aymelek » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:06 am

Humsafar wrote:
As a general note, all esoteric hair-splitting should be confined to scholarship in ivory towers and to private musings. As far as I can tell, none of its public preaching has benefitted common believers in any way.
Agreed..

Science has come a long way...Study of Taawil and Haqaiq literature (such as Philosophy) is more academic as it doesn't have much practical value in today's life. Also to be noted that Nizaris thought process has evolved however, Tayebi Ismaili have been stuck with century old philospohies as no new thought process is encouraged, which is quite contrary to what was happening during the peak of Fatimid Caliphate.



dal-chaval-palidu
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#6

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:14 am

Humsafar wrote:Let's assume that this esoteric sermon is true, what does it actually mean? Obviously, it was not meant to be taken literally.

Either way, such esoteric, taawil-infested wisdom is designed to confuse and obfuscate, not enlighten or elucidate Islamic thought. Nor can it, in my opinion, benefit believers in real spiritual terms. If anything, as anajmi and aymelek mentioned, it gives the Bohra Guru the licence to do as he pleases -- and justify it by way of taawil.

As a general note, all esoteric hair-splitting should be confined to scholarship in ivory towers and to private musings. As far as I can tell, none of its public preaching has benefitted common believers in any way.
+1.



anajmi
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#7

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:22 am

There is not a letter revealed by God in any of His Books whose intention does not point towards me.
I will try to prove this to be a lie from the Quran itself. Bear with me a bit.

Let us assume you give a copy of the Quran to a person completely unfamiliar with it in a language that he or she understands. After reading the entire copy what do you think the person will be able to tell you about it?

1) I know what the qualities of Allah are as per the Quran
2) I know what the qualities of Shaitan are as per the Quran
3) I know what the qualities of the believers are as per the Quran
4) I know what the qualities of the disbelievers are as per the Quran
5) I know what the qualities of Ali are as per the Quran

If asked to pick the false statement, which one do you think he will pick?

Now into the Quran we go.

The Quran says
Believe in .......... Allah
Pray to .............. Allah
Have faith in ...... Allah
Fear from the punishment of ....... Allah
Obey ..... Allah and his prophet (saw)
Be grateful to ....... Allah
Be cognizant (taqwa) of ...... Allah.

Unless the shia tell me that Ali himself is Allah there is no way that every letter of the Quran is intended for Ali. And if that is the case, then I am afraid I have to say that the shia are kafir. But I don't think the shia believe Ali is Allah. These statements that they make are simply out of ignorance.

A few ayahs from the Quran - Surah Al-Ikhlas
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One indivisible
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

This surah says that Allah neither begets nor is born. However, Ali was born to parents and had begotten children. So clearly these ayahs are not intended for Ali. Esoteric/Exoteric bs notwithstanding!

I can understand foolish followers of the current conman Dai believing this hogwash, but am surprised that even smart people are fooled by this.



anajmi
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:33 am

Indeed most of Ismaili taawil refers to Imam and their importance.
This is what I posted before and have posted the same thing in different words many times over the past 15 years.
Coming to Bohra Taawil. We have been discussing bohra taawil on this forum for over a decade. What I gather from the decade long discussion is that Taawil is an interpretation of the ayahs of the Quran with the sole purpose of elevating humans to status of the divine. That is Taawil and nothing more.
in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11218&p=172886&hilit=taawil#p172886

Any taawil that leads to idol worship (as the bohra taawil does) should be rejected.



Biradar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#9

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:02 pm

What I gather from the decade long discussion is that Taawil is an interpretation of the ayahs of the Quran with the sole purpose of elevating humans to status of the divine.
Totally false.

These sermons are not classified under the heading of "taawil". Taawil is simply to "take back to their origins". It has nothing to do with glorifying da'is. This is a strawman set up by those who would like to bash Shias. If after a decade all that one gathers is this strawman, then one, indeed, is a fool.

The word "letters" does not mean the physical drawn letter like "A" "B" or "C". Letter symbolism, one form of which the Abjas numerical system, is very old in Islam and cuts across sects. In these type of symbolic systems, letters represent certain symbolic aspects of creation (or other things). One glimpse of this is the hadith of Ali in which he is supposed to have spent the night discussing the dot under the letter "ba" in the first Bismillah in the Qu'ran.

Unknown to most, specially those who come from an orthodox Sunni background, is the fact the Qur'an has many strange aspects which can not be understood from mere reading the text or its translation. Because of the briefness of the Qur'an, obviously, many topics are only touched upon, often in oblique ways. As an example: consider Quran 7:712:

Q 7:712 wrote:And when thy Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify touching themselves, 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we testify'-- lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, 'As for us, we were heedless of this,'
How can "seed" testify to anything? Where did this event happen? Why would Allah ask "them" to testify even before humans were created? The system of taawil and haqaaiq aims to answer such questions.

As to those who do not find any meaning in this: yes, it is possible that you do not find any meaning or value in such things. That is because you are missing a certain organ of spiritual discernment. It is like a blind man saying he does not understand the value of a Rembrant. Or a deaf man saying he does not understand the value of a symphony. Sadly, the problem is with you.
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Humsafar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#10

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:34 pm

Biradar,
Your response is not helpful at all, and also smacks of elitism. Maybe it is wrong on my part to come down on scholarship and study of arcane literature for I'm sure it has a value, and I don't want to sound anti-intellectual. And I'm glad you brought up the analogy of the blind and their inability to appreciate Rembrandt. And that exactly is the point: that those who talk of Rembrandt to the blind should have the courtesy to explain/verbalise the beauty of Rebrandt's works to them. Just declaring how brilliant Rembrandt is meaningless to the blind. It becomes a one-way conversation.

Maybe these sermons and sayings have deep meaning, all we want to know is what that deep meaning is. Just talking about deep meaning and not saying what it is is not very helpful. Give us your thoughts on the sermon you quoted and then maybe we have something more meaningful to talk about.



Biradar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#11

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:12 pm

Humsafar:

You are asking me a very difficult question. Obviously, it is very hard to describe why one finds something interesting and deep. For example, one can not break down the beauty of a Rembrant painting to the individual brush strokes. There is something about the whole which is not simply from the sum of its parts.

As for the sermons of Ali: one needs to situate this in the essential understanding of history in Islam. Muhammad is the Seal of Prophets, and brought the final and perfected message to Humankind. As the Qur'an itself indicates, there has been a continuous cycle of prophethoods, with a few major prophets punctuating history with thousands of minor prophets in between. The era of Muhammad was unique in many ways. One of the ways is the presence of his companions, Ali, Fatema, Hassan and Hussain. These, together with Muhammad himself, form the Purified Five, and their presence in the historical time at the dawn of Islam is unique and what makes that time without any precedent.

Ali's position in Islam is unique. He was raised by the Prophet, even though his own father was still alive, and hence was part and parcel of the Prophetic training. As Ali himself says, the Prophet revealed to him many secrets, which he, and only he possessed. Ali's unique position with respect to Muhammad is that while Muhammad revealed the letter of the Qur'an (i.e. its exterior form), Ali was the vessel through which the taawil, i.e. the essential interior Truth and Reality of the Qur'an was revealed. Obviously, the Prophet was the master of both, but it was left to Ali and the Imams to expound the latter. Hence, the common saying that the Speaking Qur'an is Ali. I.e. the text of Qur'an needs interpretation to explicate its inner meaning, and that task was left to Ali.

Now, in addition to being the one who brought the taawil of the Qur'an, Ali is unique that among the Panjataan he openly spoke, in these sermons, of his special relationship to creation. Yes, he appeared in human form as the waasi of the Prophet, but he and the other Panjataan were present before the first creation. In addition, these Five will be present when the last creation is destroyed. When Ali says things like he is the First and the Last, he is not saying that he is Allah himself, but a particular Manifestation (mazhaar) of the divine through which Allah acts. As S. Taher Saifuddin says "Mazhaar che kaun bhala Khuda na ane ham naam, Maulana Ali chee".

(I should say, that this concept of divine Manifestations is found in many sects of Shi'a, and not just Ismailis or Bohras.)

Hence, when Kumayl ask's Ali: "O Commander of the Faithful, what is Ultimate (or absolute) Reality?". Ali responds, in an amused way, "What have you and Ultimate Reality to do with each other?". Kumayl pressed Ali further: "Is it not the case that I am already sharing your secrets as a companion?" (Kumayl was a close companion of Ali and understood his station). Ali's response, which indicates the difference between himself and Kumayl was: "Yes, indeed. But that which sprinkles unto you is billowing through me unto you.".

In short, the position of Ali is like the ocean which is not possible for us to fathom. Kumayl, who represents a lover and companion of Ali, merely has a few drops of this ocean sprinkling upon him. Ali's sermons in essence show us, that after we have taken the first step to "peel the skin" of Islam, i.e. accepted its outward message and beliefs, we still need to cross the threshold into the inner sanctum, entry to which is only possible via Ali. As the Prophet has said, "I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is the Gate".

Hence, the message and sermons of Ali also warn us, that it is he (i.e the love for him) which stands between the Two Gulfs. That is, beyond Islam, one needs to enter the inner circle of Imaan, which is not possible by those who chew on the skin, discarding the fruit.

I should say, that one can reject these sermons as "fabricated". (And perhaps they are). However, the alternative dry and desiccated husk called Salafi/Wahabbi/Takfiri ideology is terrible, both for our mental health as well as the heath of the world. I prefer this mystical form of Islam as it allows one to speculate and think about alternatives, and also allows for continuous change and refreshment of the message of the Prophet.

I could elaborate further, and perhaps I will. For now, this will suffice.





anajmi
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:41 pm

How can "seed" testify to anything? Where did this event happen? Why would Allah ask "them" to testify even before humans were created? The system of taawil and haqaaiq aims to answer such questions.
This is actually explained in the quran itself. But it will be like a really smart man trying to explain rocket science to an idiot. There would be no point. So i won't try.

Sorry, just kidding. To do that would be stupid. God didn't just send prophets to the people and then choose a message so complex that most people wont understand it.

The seed doesn't testify to anything. It is our prior life that is being referred to over here. We go somewhere after we die. We were there before we were born. That is where we testified. If you read surah Mulk it talks about death before life. We have died once before to come to this life and will die again to go back to the Lord.

By the way Biradar, your last post made no sense. Maybe you are just like Ali? He knew everything but couldn't explain anything to anyone either.



Biradar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#13

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:07 pm

anajmi wrote:
By the way Biradar, your last post made no sense. Maybe you are just like Ali? He knew everything but couldn't explain anything to anyone either.
As you yourself have realized, I can't explain rocket science to someone who does not understand basic thermodynamics or fluid mechanics. Specially after I have just consumed too much food and feeling sleepy. Sorry.



anajmi
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:11 pm

One glimpse of this is the hadith of Ali in which he is supposed to have spent the night discussing the dot under the letter "ba" in the first Bismillah in the Qu'ran.
Does the hadith describe his understanding of the dot? Or the discussion itself? What was it? Now if you tell me that it is only through Ali that you can understand it I am going to literally throw up.



anajmi
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:33 pm

"I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is the Gate"
Let me show you why this gate has been shut and no one seems to be able to get through.

What lies beyond the gate, as per biradar is rocket science. So that makes this city and its knowledge useless to an overwhelming majority of the Ummah.
For example, one can not break down the beauty of a Rembrant painting to the individual brush strokes.
Another example of why this city and its knowledge is useless for us ordinary folks.
As Ali himself says, the Prophet revealed to him many secrets, which he, and only he possessed.
Hence the city of knowledge is useless to us ordinary folks.
the text of Qur'an needs interpretation to explicate its inner meaning, and that task was left to Ali.
Do we have an interpretation of the Quran by Ali? Or by his esteemed successors? No. Hence the city of knowledge is useless to us ordinary folks.
but he and the other Panjataan were present before the first creation.
In other words, they are not from amongst those that are created. Hence they are partners with Allah in being the un-created. You know what I am going to say next right?
but a particular Manifestation (mazhaar) of the divine through which Allah acts.
Isn't Ali dead? So I guess this manifestation is now either STF or SMB. Or maybe the Alavi bohra Dai? How about the living Imam Aga Khan?
"What have you and Ultimate Reality to do with each other?"
In other words, the city of knowledge is useless for us ordinary folks.
That is, beyond Islam, one needs to enter the inner circle of Imaan, which is not possible by those who chew on the skin, discarding the fruit.
Now, the fruit is inside the city. Ali is the gate of this city and it is bolted shut. So us ordinary folks only get to chew on the skin. Unless you pay najwa and start kissing hands and feet. Then you are from inner circle of Imaan.
I could elaborate further, and perhaps I will. For now, this will suffice.
I cannot wait for it.

By the way, if anyone learned even one thing from Biradar's post about Islam and Imaan, other than about the greatness of a particular human being, please enlighten me. Somebody other than Biradar please, cause he is too much like Ali. No one can understand him.



Biradar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#16

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:19 am

A Sufi Master once wrote:

"There is a difference between those who circle the heart within
and those who perform the outward motions of Hajj.

Annihilation of the self is the way of the former;
the latter endeavor to correct pronunciation.

Why persist in arguing with such false pretenders?
Unaware of the mysteries, they will always remain obstinate.

They profess to follow the "straight path,"
so why do they proceed so crookedly?

As long as their eyes see double
they will lack true vision."

That is all for now.



kimanumanu
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#17

Unread post by kimanumanu » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:36 pm

https://ismailignosis.com/ - Biradar bhai what is your opinion about this website? I have read some articles there and I am guessing there is a lot in common with perhaps what gets told in sabaqs apart from what happened after the Nizar/Mustali split.



Biradar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#18

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:25 pm

kimanumanu wrote:https://ismailignosis.com/ - Biradar bhai what is your opinion about this website? I have read some articles there and I am guessing there is a lot in common with perhaps what gets told in sabaqs apart from what happened after the Nizar/Mustali split.
Thank you for pointing out the website. I have known about it and read some posts there since it was first launched. In my opinion it is a good website, however, it is very partisan towards the Nizari/Aga-Khani viewpoint. Which is fine, but the Nizari's diverged from Tayyebi's a long time ago and hence the two communities have diverged significantly.

The Nizari modes of worship are very different than the Bohra ones. In general, Borhas are actually very close to orthodox Sunni practice. In fact, Bohras are closer to Sunni in terms of outward practice (for namaaz and fasting, for example), than to other Shia groups. Nizaris have diverged significantly, and do not consider orthodox namaaz or fasting of any value any longer.

In terms of esoteric doctrine. Obviously, the two groups share the same ideas up to Imam Mustansir, and when the website quotes early da'i's like Shirazi or Kirmani, they are accurate. However, post Imam Mustansir, things have changed a lot. The Tayyebi esoteric ideas have undergone significant change early after the occultation of the Imam, but since then have remained rather static. The Nizari doctrines, on the other hand, have evolved significantly and transformed under the influence of various other religions (including Hinudism). Hence, I would not trust that website to be accurate for Bohra doctrine at all. (Of course, it is not meant to be either).



dal-chaval-palidu
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#19

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:12 pm

On this topic, my request is:

Can you glean for us from this esoteric knowledge actionable things in terms of how to live a better life?

I mean, just tell us: "Such and such" is a good thing to do for your akherat. Certain other things are not good. Here is how one should live your life for the pleasure of Allah. Frankly, that is all many of us would want.

Saying something is hidden and has other meaning which are not obvious, etc. Okay, granted, so what can I do based on that and how is that helpful to us in terms of our daily life?

I appreciate your intention to help/guide us, so just tell us in plain words for us plain folks what is the takeaway from these sermons.



Biradar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#20

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:38 pm

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Saying something is hidden and has other meaning which are not obvious, etc. Okay, granted, so what can I do based on that and how is that helpful to us in terms of our daily life?

I appreciate your intention to help/guide us, so just tell us in plain words for us plain folks what is the takeaway from these sermons.
Not sure if this is directed to me. But, if it is: I am not qualified to tell you how to live your life. Sorry, you have to figure that out yourself. Remember: you can ask the same question about anything and anybody. For me, personally, the most important thing is to take personal responsibility for my own (and my family's) growth and development. I decide what is good for me. What is good for me may not be good for you. Hence, you need to take responsibility and decide for yourself. No one will save you from your own incompetence except yourself.

Incidentally, isn't this the problem with bohris, specially those who love jamaan, specially the dal chaval palidu lovers? Always wanting others to take responsibility. Hence, the failure of the Reform movement. I have made my thoughts on things abundantly clear here. No need to repeat ad nauseam.



dal-chaval-palidu
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#21

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:32 am

Biradar wrote:
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Saying something is hidden and has other meaning which are not obvious, etc. Okay, granted, so what can I do based on that and how is that helpful to us in terms of our daily life?

I appreciate your intention to help/guide us, so just tell us in plain words for us plain folks what is the takeaway from these sermons.
Not sure if this is directed to me. But, if it is: I am not qualified to tell you how to live your life. Sorry, you have to figure that out yourself. Remember: you can ask the same question about anything and anybody. For me, personally, the most important thing is to take personal responsibility for my own (and my family's) growth and development. I decide what is good for me. What is good for me may not be good for you. Hence, you need to take responsibility and decide for yourself. No one will save you from your own incompetence except yourself.

Incidentally, isn't this the problem with bohris, specially those who love jamaan, specially the dal chaval palidu lovers? Always wanting others to take responsibility. Hence, the failure of the Reform movement. I have made my thoughts on things abundantly clear here. No need to repeat ad nauseam.
Biradar,

I am not asking you for your guidance on how to live my life, although, if anybody has good suggestions, I will listen. You are mentioning these esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali and saying we should study them. Since they are esoteric (by your own admission) and the meaning is not obvious to ordinary folks, I am just asking if you can clarify any takeaways from those specific sermons about Maulana Ali's guidance on how to live a good life. That is all. If you cannot, that is fine too.

I also want to briefly address your objections to my taking the name dal-chaval-palidu in this forum and the assumptions that you are making. You seem to think that it means I am very interested in food. How can you be so sure, Sir? Respectfully, let me tell you that you are mistaken. I like good food, but I eat to live; I don't live to eat. Here is my logic about taking the dcp name: I wanted to remain anonymous, however, this is a bohra forum and hence I wanted to take a name that relates to our dawoodi bohra identity. And what better than dcp, and it was not taken. So DCP is about my dawoodi bohra identity, not that I think food is paramount in life.

And you have said that I love food and hence stay with SMS. Really Sir! In an anonymous forum, how can you be so sure? You may be surprised if you knew where I have given my allegiance.



Biradar
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#22

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:33 pm

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: And you have said that I love food and hence stay with SMS. Really Sir! In an anonymous forum, how can you be so sure? You may be surprised if you knew where I have given my allegiance.
Listen: I don't care where you have given your allegiance or not. Really, I don't. In previous threads you have described not being invited to events as a reason why one should not leave DMMS. Here are your own words:
dal-chaval-palidu wrote:Let follow what you are saying. Suppose I leave and openly join FD. Yes, I will be cut off from the jammat, but let us say that I can take that. Now there is a marriage in the family. And I cannot attend , or I cannot even be openly seen with them in the course of normal exchanges. Won't that hurt me and my family?
Hence, the assumption that you are just a spineless, groveling abde. Combine this with your ID here, one would very reasonable to assume you love food and that is the thread tying you to the mafia regime of More-la Muffy. If you are so scared that you do not want miss a few meals, than what hope is there from you?

If I am wrong, I apologize. Forgive me.

As to what Ali has to teach you. Why don't you read the sermons carefully yourself and learn? I pointed these out as way for people to read something which they are probably not aware of. Not as a starting point for a tutorial on them! I already mentioned two books you could read. The first, Nahaj al-Balagha and the other the collection of Ali's sayings. The latter is available in many collections, but a recent collection you may want to check out is one by Bazat Tahera Qutbuddin. These may be good starting points for people who are not familiar with the imagery and symbolism of esoteric Islam.

(Incidentally, the symbolism in these sermons is not restricted to Shias only. Sufis also use them extensively. Many collections of such terms have been made, but to truly understand them you need to immerse yourself in the context of these sermons and sayings and also understand something of the history and philosophical settings of Islam. This takes time, but it is a worthy endeavor. I know what Humsafar will say: it is all elitism! Perhaps it is. But what is wrong with elitism he won't say.)



Aymelek
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#23

Unread post by Aymelek » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:59 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:
Can you glean for us from this esoteric knowledge actionable things in terms of how to live a better life?
Br DCP,

As I mentioned earlier esoteric knowledge (i.e. Taawil) is more of academics . It helps a reasoning mind understand why something is the way it is. (e.g. why 3 rakahs of Magrib prayer, etc.). Thus it help establish a rationale for Islamic rituals and devotions. The objective of Ta'awil is then to enable a mumin to perform his acts of devotions with the true ma'arifah. Since as per the Bohras, ta'awil gives out the true meanings of rituals it can help one strengthen and purify its intentions of performing these acts of devotions.

Whereas the Haqaiq literature deals with Creation & Hereafter(i.e. most of the cosmogony part)

For other knowledge action things for living a better life, there are other zaahir books which includes hadiths of Prophet and Imams such as Kitab Tanbiyul Gafeleen by S. Hatim.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:49 am

Br Aymelek,

If you know the Tawili reason for why maghrib has 3 rakah, can you post it over here? Or the Tawili reason for any Zahiri act.

When I was in junior college we studied Bohr's model. This was nearly 30 years ago. Not sure if they still teach it or not. If bohr's had been a shia follower of Ali, we would not be able to study it in college. We would have to be a part of the inner circle of Iman to study it. Only thing we would learn is how great Niel Bohr is for coming up with the model. The model itself would remain secret for the inner circle. This in a nutshell is shiaism's taawil. Useless to anyone except those that are blind idol worshippers. And even they will be screwed because of it in the hereafter.

Let it be known that living a good life as per Islam is the Zahir part of the Quran. Those who dwell upon the Tawili aspects are those that have darkness in their hearts. This is again as per the Zahir Quran itself.

My question where I asked if anyone had understood anything about Islam or Imaan from Biradar's post other than the elevation of humans to stature of divinity, remains unanswered.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
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Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:51 am

but a recent collection you may want to check out is one by Bazat Tahera Qutbuddin.
How do I get access to this collection?



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:00 pm

Was doing a search on... where else.... Google and came across this by Bazat Tahera Qutbuddin

http://www.fatemidawat.com/prayers/qasi ... cond).html


This starts.. Dil ni dhadkan khuzaima khuzaima har saans ma khuzaima khuzaima. I couldn't listen beyond those first two sentences. Has she taken the time to write about the one entity infinitely better than these corrupt mortals?



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#27

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:18 pm

https://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Virtues ... 1479826553

Is this the collection you are referring to by any chance?



Aymelek
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#28

Unread post by Aymelek » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:39 am

anajmi wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Virtues ... 1479826553

Is this the collection you are referring to by any chance?
Yes... I think Br. Biradar is referring to this book as it contains quotes, certain short speeches and 100 idioms of Ali as recorded by a Sunni Qadi.



Biradar
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#29

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:09 pm

anajmi wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Virtues ... 1479826553

Is this the collection you are referring to by any chance?
Yes. There is a cheaper paper-back version also. Or you can get it on Kindle.



Humsafar
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Esoteric sermons of Maulana Ali

#30

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:40 pm

Biradar wrote:As Ali himself says, the Prophet revealed to him many secrets, which he, and only he possessed
Is there a collection of these secrets apart from Nahjul Balagha? Who else is/was privy to these secrets after Ali?
Now, in addition to being the one who brought the taawil of the Qur'an, Ali is unique that among the Panjataan he openly spoke, in these sermons, of his special relationship to creation. Yes, he appeared in human form as the waasi of the Prophet, but he and the other Panjataan were present before the first creation. In addition, these Five will be present when the last creation is destroyed. When Ali says things like he is the First and the Last, he is not saying that he is Allah himself, but a particular Manifestation (mazhaar) of the divine through which Allah acts. As S. Taher Saifuddin says "Mazhaar che kaun bhala Khuda na ane ham naam, Maulana Ali chee".
In my opinion, this is standard mysticism turned into colourful Shia theology. All the great adepts, the enlightened ones, through the ages have testified to the transcendent being, the eternal soul that is prior to all creation. In Hindu philosophy there is one supreme being (which predates judeo-christian monotheism) and the many gods are believed to be its manifestations. Ali being a divine manifestation is nothing extraordinary. And the very idea of Islamic mysticism in my view is post-Quranic. Prophet Mohammed revealed the Quran and build a formal, manifest religion around it. Although being a mystic himself he concerned himself with more practical matters of justice and equality, of reforming a backward society. The Quran for the most part was/is a practical guide, a constitution for a Muslim society. It's message was zaahir and plain. The Prophet himself never talked about hidden meanings (except for the secrets he confided in Ali).

But, and this is my understanding, under the influence of Greek philosophy, particularly neoPlatonism, Muslim thinkers found the "practical" Quran wanting in deeper philosophy. They scoured the Book to glean verses that could point to hidden esoteric meaning. Much of the Shia philosophy and cosmogony is a result of this intellectual endeavour. This is my conjecture, I maybe wrong.

Also, the relationship between the Prohphet and Ali, and Ali and Kumail is pretty standard Guru/Shishya or Mureed/Murshid relationship. There are many instances of across time and cultures of this relationship where the student has drunk at the master's feet. The interior truths of the Quran point I believe to the interior truth of one's being, one's inner self. All the mystics from Buddha to Jesus to Ramana Maharishi have claimed that there is no divine truth outside of one's self - which in other words means the real self reveals the real nature of God, of the Universe. These truths do not exist in books, in fact it cannot be described and explained (as the Quran itself claims).

Biradar asked what is wrong with elitism. It is an attitude which privileges higher learning, class and a certain kind of lifestyle over ordinary folks. A superiority complex, in other words. The majority of people do not have the time to examine life (as Socrates had suggested) and to look down upon them for lack of knowledge or intellectual finesse is elitism. Everything is wrong with it, because it creates divisions and rifts. I'm I guilty of it? Sure, I'm, A flawed human that I am.

Sorry, I can't participate as often as I would like to, but you can surely expect me back soon. :-)