Usool-a-Kafi declares Molana Ismail (a) is rightful Imam

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Khadhim Al Mahdi
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Usool-a-Kafi declares Molana Ismail (a) is rightful Imam

#31

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:58 am

Salaams brother Javed,

There is no compulsion in religion, so our bohra brethren have their own free choice to make. We are only trying to make them aware of the realities & the truth. I myself was a bohra & am now a follower of the Shia Imamiyya school; this was after alot of reading & research which I still continue to this day.

I have also read Mullah Hasan Ali Sarangpurwala's Kitab-e-Ismail, which if I am honest, I was not so convinced of the arguments. Many of the arguments contained therein I believe are weak and have been refuted.

I believe that one of the main reasons the bohras are facing such a turmoil right now is because of the incorrect Imamate they followed after Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq [as], for there was no 'nass' given to Isma'il or any of the 'Imams' after him; i.e. they were not divinely appointed.

So when you have a system that is not divinely appointed, you are bound to go astray and this current conflict is the outcome of this; I hope in such circumstances, people realise the truth that they are being fooled and deceived by the kothar. This should also encourage many of the truth-seeking bohras to really reflect, seatch and come towards the path of truth.

May Allah SWT guide us all to his way, ameen.



Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: Usool-a-Kafi declares Molana Ismail (a) is rightful Imam

#32

Unread post by Munira_RV » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:21 am

Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote:Salaams brother Javed,

There is no compulsion in religion, so our bohra brethren have their own free choice to make. We are only trying to make them aware of the realities & the truth. I myself was a bohra & am now a follower of the Shia Imamiyya school; this was after alot of reading & research which I still continue to this day.

I have also read Mullah Hasan Ali Sarangpurwala's Kitab-e-Ismail, which if I am honest, I was not so convinced of the arguments. Many of the arguments contained therein I believe are weak and have been refuted.

I believe that one of the main reasons the bohras are facing such a turmoil right now is because of the incorrect Imamate they followed after Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq [as], for there was no 'nass' given to Isma'il or any of the 'Imams' after him; i.e. they were not divinely appointed.

So when you have a system that is not divinely appointed, you are bound to go astray and this current conflict is the outcome of this; I hope in such circumstances, people realise the truth that they are being fooled and deceived by the kothar. This should also encourage many of the truth-seeking bohras to really reflect, seatch and come towards the path of truth.

May Allah SWT guide us all to his way, ameen.
Which non-Ithna Asheri prominent historian has said that Imam Jaffer Sadique a.s. first nuss was done over Hz. Musa Kazim and not over Imam Ismail a.s.?



freebohra2016
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:45 am

Re: Usool-a-Kafi declares Molana Ismail (a) is rightful Imam

#33

Unread post by freebohra2016 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:21 am

Has anybody read the book "Shia Sects : Kitab al Firaq Al Shia" by Hasan Al Nawbhakti and translated by Abbas Kadhim or can the below quote be verified it is from the book:

Hasan ibn Musa al-Nawbakhti (d. before 922), Firaq al-Shi’a, ed. Ritter (1931 Istanbul), p. 55 – quoted below:
Ja‘far ibn Muhammad designated (ashāra ila) the Imamat of his son Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far.

JazakAllah Khair



Khadhim Al Mahdi
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Usool-a-Kafi declares Molana Ismail (a) is rightful Imam

#34

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:55 am


Which non-Ithna Asheri prominent historian has said that Imam Jaffer Sadique a.s. first nuss was done over Hz. Musa Kazim and not over Imam Ismail a.s.?

1. ^ If you pose the above question, then I will turn round and say, all major historians confirm that Hz. Ismail died during the lifetime of Imam Sadiq (as). Also, ad-Da‘i Idris ibn al-Hasan ibn ‘Abdillah, ‘Imadu 'd-Din, al- Qurashi al-Yamani says in his book, 'Zahr al ma'aani' that Imam Sadiq (as) appointed Musa al-Kadhim (as) as his successor, but his goal in doing so was to protect the Imamate of Muhammad bin Ismail. If we assume that Ismail was appointed as a successor of Imam Sadiq (As), however, we know that Ismail died while Imam Sadiq (as) was still alive and al-sadiq (as) was the Imam of the time (Imam e zamaan). Then how can you still take him as an Imam? Why do you automatically assume that Muhammad bin Ismail was automatically the successor? The point is, you cannot solely rely on historians for the basis of your faith because they will give their side of the picture only and negate some very important religious aspects. We believe in Qur'an wa Ahlebait (As) as our ultimate proofs.

If you are going to go on the basis that Isma'il was appointed then you also must admit he died during Imam Sadiq (as)'s life time, that bada'a occurred to shift the Imamate to his brother instead. If you are going to rely on such reports you can't just go half way and take the bit you like (a nass was conferred) while ignoring the rest of it (Ismail died, bada' occurred, therefore Ismail wasn't an Imam). But again, no actual texts are provided for any of this, only hearsay from much later after the fact (a century or centuries later), hearsay often designed to make Shiism look bad. On the contrary, there are multiple, historically traced (with isnads) reports of as-Sadiq (as) conferring nass on his son Musa (as). Ismailis simply don't have anything like that and never have. Hence why he has to rely on all this roundabout ways to obfuscate and impress that he has more of an argument than he really does.

2. What historians say (especially non-shia historians) is not a matter of Hujjah (proof) upon us. In Islam, when it comes to the concept of Imamah (And I'm sure you agree with this) there are certain conditions how we can ascertain whom the true Imam of Allah (swt) really is.

i. Infallibility (al-'Ismah) - Divine protection from sins and from failure in fulfilling the obligations, a protection which prevents the person the person from forgetfulness and mistakes in conveying the message, implementing the divine laws, and guiding the people.

ii He should be the best person in his time in all virtues.

iii He should be knowledgeable about the shari‘ah in all its scopes and dimensions. He should also be an expert in managing the ummah, with insight in regulating its affairs, and capable of leading and guiding it.

iv He should be the most brave and courageous person of his time. The kind of courage, which is necessary to lead the ummah at war as well as in peace. He should also be the wisest of all in regard to the ummah's interest, and the most conscious of the needs and the demands of its members in their personal and social life.

v. There should be, in the Imam, no blemish physical or moral, in lineage or descent which would prevent him from commanding total control over the various elements of the ummah and from subjugating them completely to his divine leadership

The imamate as defined above is established through:

i) A clear text (an-nass), either from the Holy Qur'an and statements of RasoolAllah (saws) and Ahlulbayt (as).

ii) Performance of miracles (mu‘jizah), which clearly proves the divine link that would, in turn, proves a divine position for the performer. The numbers of the imams, the identifying process for each one of them, and their relationship to one another (e.g., one is the father and the other is the son; or one is the brother of the other) depends on the nass only.



Siddiqua
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:05 am

Re: Usool-a-Kafi declares Molana Ismail (a) is rightful Imam

#35

Unread post by Siddiqua » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:41 am

Khadhim Al Mahdi wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:55 am

Which non-Ithna Asheri prominent historian has said that Imam Jaffer Sadique a.s. first nuss was done over Hz. Musa Kazim and not over Imam Ismail a.s.?

1. ^ If you pose the above question, then I will turn round and say, all major historians confirm that Hz. Ismail died during the lifetime of Imam Sadiq (as). Also, ad-Da‘i Idris ibn al-Hasan ibn ‘Abdillah, ‘Imadu 'd-Din, al- Qurashi al-Yamani says in his book, 'Zahr al ma'aani' that Imam Sadiq (as) appointed Musa al-Kadhim (as) as his successor, but his goal in doing so was to protect the Imamate of Muhammad bin Ismail. If we assume that Ismail was appointed as a successor of Imam Sadiq (As), however, we know that Ismail died while Imam Sadiq (as) was still alive and al-sadiq (as) was the Imam of the time (Imam e zamaan). Then how can you still take him as an Imam? Why do you automatically assume that Muhammad bin Ismail was automatically the successor? The point is, you cannot solely rely on historians for the basis of your faith because they will give their side of the picture only and negate some very important religious aspects. We believe in Qur'an wa Ahlebait (As) as our ultimate proofs.

If you are going to go on the basis that Isma'il was appointed then you also must admit he died during Imam Sadiq (as)'s life time, that bada'a occurred to shift the Imamate to his brother instead. If you are going to rely on such reports you can't just go half way and take the bit you like (a nass was conferred) while ignoring the rest of it (Ismail died, bada' occurred, therefore Ismail wasn't an Imam). But again, no actual texts are provided for any of this, only hearsay from much later after the fact (a century or centuries later), hearsay often designed to make Shiism look bad. On the contrary, there are multiple, historically traced (with isnads) reports of as-Sadiq (as) conferring nass on his son Musa (as). Ismailis simply don't have anything like that and never have. Hence why he has to rely on all this roundabout ways to obfuscate and impress that he has more of an argument than he really does.

2. What historians say (especially non-shia historians) is not a matter of Hujjah (proof) upon us. In Islam, when it comes to the concept of Imamah (And I'm sure you agree with this) there are certain conditions how we can ascertain whom the true Imam of Allah (swt) really is.

i. Infallibility (al-'Ismah) - Divine protection from sins and from failure in fulfilling the obligations, a protection which prevents the person the person from forgetfulness and mistakes in conveying the message, implementing the divine laws, and guiding the people.

ii He should be the best person in his time in all virtues.

iii He should be knowledgeable about the shari‘ah in all its scopes and dimensions. He should also be an expert in managing the ummah, with insight in regulating its affairs, and capable of leading and guiding it.

iv He should be the most brave and courageous person of his time. The kind of courage, which is necessary to lead the ummah at war as well as in peace. He should also be the wisest of all in regard to the ummah's interest, and the most conscious of the needs and the demands of its members in their personal and social life.

v. There should be, in the Imam, no blemish physical or moral, in lineage or descent which would prevent him from commanding total control over the various elements of the ummah and from subjugating them completely to his divine leadership

The imamate as defined above is established through:

i) A clear text (an-nass), either from the Holy Qur'an and statements of RasoolAllah (saws) and Ahlulbayt (as).

ii) Performance of miracles (mu‘jizah), which clearly proves the divine link that would, in turn, proves a divine position for the performer. The numbers of the imams, the identifying process for each one of them, and their relationship to one another (e.g., one is the father and the other is the son; or one is the brother of the other) depends on the nass only.


Hello Khadim,

1. You are preaching lies - Dai Idrees has never wrote what you contends him to have written, on contrary he wrote, "Imam Ismail (a) died after Imam Jaffer Sadiq (a).

Isna'ashri scholar Shaharistani and Bakir Majlisi both wrote: The original Imamat nuss was done on Imam Ismail (a) by Imam Sadiq (a). Then Bakir Majlisi brings in the self invented excuse of "badaa"! By which he is claiming Imam Sadik (a) was not perfect! That he erred in making original nuss! To justify incorrect stand of Isna'asheri he is showing down Imam Sadiq (a).

2. Does in lure of kingship Reza sahib agreed to become the deputy of anti-Shia Abbasi caliph?

3. Who are slave women, those who are not on the religion of Islam and are caught in the war between believers v/s non-believers. Being not on Islam means their Imaan has deficiency. So sons of such slave women too will be deficient in imaan structurally.

All Fatimi Imams are the sons of proper Muslima mother. Now you can check status of Isna'asher Imams mother by yourself and let us know your findings?

4. No true Shia after war of Jamal will keep their children names after "her". But Isna'asheri Imam Must Kazim sahib and Ali Reza sahib kept their daughter name after "her"!!! Where else Ismaili Tayyebi Imams (a) never did that.

5. Miracles - Fake miracles by your leaders are endorsed by none of the sovereign authorities. Where else the official gazette of the Government of India records miracles by the Dai's who are slaves of Ismaili Imams!

6. Characterless - You promote extra marital relations with women under guise of 'muta'. Should it have any higher degree of religious sanctions then it should have been supported by Mola Ali (a), but its zikr is totally absent in Nahjul Balagha!

7. Your leaders - Marja and Ayatullah are all self made and not appointed by your Imam and still they take 20% (Khums) from gullible Isna'asheri follower and fill in their personal coffers which they never give audit report of income & expenditure. When they die, their children's inherit those assets. When Khums is meant for Imam why Marja collect them? They are self-declared leaders. Where else in Ismaili system - the leaders are only appointed by Allah.

8. You claim: No one, never ever had any news of 12th Imam since he is alleged to get disappeared - question is from where you got this news that he is still alive?



Khadhim Al Mahdi
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Usool-a-Kafi declares Molana Ismail (a) is rightful Imam

#36

Unread post by Khadhim Al Mahdi » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:31 pm


Hello Khadim,

1. You are preaching lies - Dai Idrees has never wrote what you contends him to have written, on contrary he wrote, "Imam Ismail (a) died after Imam Jaffer Sadiq (a).

Isna'ashri scholar Shaharistani and Bakir Majlisi both wrote: The original Imamat nuss was done on Imam Ismail (a) by Imam Sadiq (a). Then Bakir Majlisi brings in the self invented excuse of "badaa"! By which he is claiming Imam Sadik (a) was not perfect! That he erred in making original nuss! To justify incorrect stand of Isna'asheri he is showing down Imam Sadiq (a).

2. Does in lure of kingship Reza sahib agreed to become the deputy of anti-Shia Abbasi caliph?

3. Who are slave women, those who are not on the religion of Islam and are caught in the war between believers v/s non-believers. Being not on Islam means their Imaan has deficiency. So sons of such slave women too will be deficient in imaan structurally.

All Fatimi Imams are the sons of proper Muslima mother. Now you can check status of Isna'asher Imams mother by yourself and let us know your findings?

4. No true Shia after war of Jamal will keep their children names after "her". But Isna'asheri Imam Must Kazim sahib and Ali Reza sahib kept their daughter name after "her"!!! Where else Ismaili Tayyebi Imams (a) never did that.

5. Miracles - Fake miracles by your leaders are endorsed by none of the sovereign authorities. Where else the official gazette of the Government of India records miracles by the Dai's who are slaves of Ismaili Imams!

6. Characterless - You promote extra marital relations with women under guise of 'muta'. Should it have any higher degree of religious sanctions then it should have been supported by Mola Ali (a), but its zikr is totally absent in Nahjul Balagha!

7. Your leaders - Marja and Ayatullah are all self made and not appointed by your Imam and still they take 20% (Khums) from gullible Isna'asheri follower and fill in their personal coffers which they never give audit report of income & expenditure. When they die, their children's inherit those assets. When Khums is meant for Imam why Marja collect them? They are self-declared leaders. Where else in Ismaili system - the leaders are only appointed by Allah.

8. You claim: No one, never ever had any news of 12th Imam since he is alleged to get disappeared - question is from where you got this news that he is still alive?
Assalaamu alaykum Siddiqua,

I am presuming you are the same person who has username as Munira_rv and Badri Janaab Since your writing seems very similar...

Anyways, I can see you've made a number of points and unfortunately as I've seen from before, you do tend to deviate to various different points without really addressing the core issues at hand. Your thread initially was to prove the Imamah of Ismail ibn Ja'far so I will stick to this only since this is the primary issue of difference between us.

1. Da'i Idrees did infact say this, but I do not agree with what he says since there is no real proof for it. Furthermore, he also admits in his book, Uyuun al-akhbaar wa fununu al-athar (page 349-350), in which he has a big section to proving the supposed Imamah of Ismail, however, he also later admits that Ismail died during the lifetime of Imam Sadiq (as) and that he (as) buried him with his own hands and called witnesses to testify to his death multiple times. He emphasised on this point more than once that Isma'il died during the lifetime of Imam Sadiq (As)

2. Al-Shahrastani wasn't a twelver scholar to begin with so I'm not sure where you got this from..at most he was an Ashari Sunni scholar, or even an Ismaili in taqiyyah. In regards to Allamah Majlisi, yes, he does mention an account in Bihar al-anwar of Imam Sadiq (as) and people thinking Ismail to be the Imam, however this statement he mentions is not a statement of nass. It is simply a statement of expectation as some in the Shi'a community assumed that the Imamate would be transmitted hereditary to the eldest son. Of course, that is not the case, and the successions of Imam Ali (as) and Imam al-Husayn (as) are a testament to that.

I have seen the narration of bad'a which you're referring to. That narration does not indicate that the bad'a was about the Imamate of Ismail, it only indicates that a bada happened about him. Secondly, the narration is mursal and Sheikh as-saduq and Sheikh al-mufeed have mentioned it as an objection that the zaydiyya used to use against the Imamiyyah. Sheikh Mufeed then goes onto mention that the Bada' was actually about Ismails death, as it has been narrated from Imam Sadiq (as) that Allah wanted Ismail to be killed, but Imam sadiq (as) supplicated twice, so Allah let him live a bit more and that is the bada' that Allah had never changed his decision twice like this before.

Of course, when Ismail died during Imam Sadiq (as)'s lifetime, it was clear that he wasn't the next Imam. Why would an Imam choose someone as an Imam who would then cease to live before the actual Imam has even passed away!?

I ask all Bohra brethren to sincerely ponder over the above point, to research further and reflect. Alhamdulillah, today by the will of Allah, many Bohras are waking up and finding the truth.