Imamat

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badrijanab
Posts: 809
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Imamat

#1

Unread post by badrijanab » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:58 pm

Question) Does Quran commands to believers to obey an authorised person other than Messenger Mohammed s.a.w.w.?
Answer)
Yes. Refer Quran 4:59 - O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Three parties are identified whom one has to obey:
1. Allah
2. Messanger
3. Authorised person

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Q) Who will be authorised person?
Answer) Whom Allah will appoint via his messenger. So public cannot appoint anyone as authorised person of Islam as public is not authorised by Allah to elect anyone as authority to seen of Allah. So election of 1/2/3 by public can be valid only as people's ruler but not as authority in the matter of Islam. No authentic books in Islamic world says: 1/2/3 were authorised by Prophet as religious authority after Prophet.

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Q) How Mola Ali a.s. is authorised person in matter of Islam in absence/after Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w.?
Answer)
Example) Emperor Akbar the great was the lord of all those whose lord was Humayun. Jahangir was lord of all those whose lord was Akbar. Shahjahan was lord of all those whose lord was Jahangir. What does this mean? Akbar is the authorised successor of Humayun and likewise.

Many authentic Sunni books vets following, that Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. said: "Ali is Mola (lord) of all those to whom I am the Mola (lord)." This clearly means Mohammed s.a.w.w. has appointed Mola Ali a.s. as the authorised person in matter of Islam after him.

Has Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. said same/similar about 1/2/3? No. Was their any clear nuss on 1/2/3? No.

Before the event of "Gadeer-a-khum" all pillars of Islam were revealed but still Allah has not said, "Islam is complete." It was only after the event of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. pronouncing that "Ali is Mola to all whom I am Mola" - after this event Allah sent aayat: Now Islam is complete. Thus this is the proof of clear nuss.

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Q) Where Quran command need for Imams after Demise of last Prophet?
Answer)
Sura Maryam, Chapter 19, Verse 96 & 97: On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will ((Allah)) Most Gracious bestow love. So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.

Refer underlined red text above: believers resides in different geographies and does have their own tongue / native language. But Quran is only in Arabic and not in the own tongue of believers!!!

There has to be one authorised person in every era who can speak in native language of anyone across geographies, across time. This person is called Fatimi Imam. That is why it is said: Imam is "bolt Quran" and Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. said, I am leaving two strong thing behind me, one is Quran and second is my Itrat (the Fatimi Imam's). They will always be together.

So Sura 19:96-97 is proof from book Quran that Imam is always needed in all time otherwise this aayat turns false. This aayat also shows us way: how to recognise if a claimant of Imam is really the Imam - test him if he can speak different tongue. The Aga Khani and Ithna Asheri Imam cannot!!!

Quran says, "Zalikal kitaab laraybafeeh....": Zalika means "that" and Haaza means "this". Quran says "that" Quran is undoubtedly right and error free: "That Quran" = Fatimi Ismaili Tayyebi Imam's. Hence, Fatimi Ismaili Tayyebi Imam a.s. = bolta Quran, vetted by the book Quran.

yuzarsif
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:40 am

Re: Imamat

#2

Unread post by yuzarsif » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:54 am

badrijanab wrote: Quran says, "Zalikal kitaab laraybafeeh....": Zalika means "that" and Haaza means "this". Quran says "that" Quran is undoubtedly right and error free: "That Quran" = Fatimi Ismaili Tayyebi Imam's. Hence, Fatimi Ismaili Tayyebi Imam a.s. = bolta Quran, vetted by the book Quran.
Bro badrijanab.
watch the below link..
http://www.nakcollection.com/1/post/201 ... raphy.html

truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: Imamat

#3

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:20 am

"O you believe, obey God and obey the messenger and also those in charge among you"

4:59

This glorious ayat has been subject to deliberate manipulation by the Muslim Imams and scholars in many Muslim countries. They have used the words "those in charge among you" in order to claim that the religious guru's have a right according to the Quran to have authority over the people and that they should be obeyed without question.

In order to analyse this claim we must research the Quranic content with regards to this issue.

The first part of this ayat is straightforward, as in numerous other ayat we read the command to obey God and obey the messenger. It has been shown that obeying God and obeying the messenger are one and the same thing since the messenger's sole duty is to deliver God's message (5:92), hence we do not need to elaborate on this issue here, please check the following link: Obey God and obey the messenger

This leaves us with the task of understanding the words "those in charge among you". Do these words rightly give the religious guru's their claimed right to control the people and be entitled to receive the total obedience of the believers?

The term "those in charge among you" covers a wide variety of people. In order to determine who is actually entitled to have rightful authority over us, it would be quite logical to assert that this authority must be in accordance to God's law, in other words it must be a God given authority, and not an authority that is self claimed.

The following are some examples of rightful and righteous authority that is in harmony with the Quranic teachings:

1- For a young boy/girl they should obey their parents who have authority over them during their younge dependent years.

2- For a wife, she must obey her husband (in righteousness) as God decreed in the Quran.

3- For an employee, he/she must obey their boss who has authority over them, but only within the framework of the profession.

4- For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law.

Other cases may also be made that relate to authority in righteousness and in harmony with God's law.

Now we ask, do the clergy and the religious guru's have authority over the believers in accordance to 4:59?

It can be easily demonstrated with the aid of the Quran that the authority God speaks of in 4:59 does NOT cover the men of religion (e.g. Imam's, guru's .. etc). The religious figures (e.g. Imams, gurus, ... etc) have NO AUTHORITY over the believers.

First, the Quran stresses the fact that it is forbidden to follow any law other than the law of God, that being the Law of the Quran:

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114

Second, the Quran makes it very clear in numerous ayat that there is no compulsion in religion:

"There is no compulsion in religion." 2:256

What this means is that the sole duty of the Imam or religious figure is to preach God's way and God's laws, but never to force the people or be entitled to blind obedience.

The prophet himself was warned very clearly by God that he is to deliver the message and then if the people do not accept it or follow it, that he should leave them alone and that he has no authority over them.

"Had God willed, they would not have committed Shirk. We did not appoint you as a guardian over them, nor are you a trustee over them." 6:107

If the prophet himslef was given no authority over the people in religious matters, it would make no sense for any religious guru to claim this right for himself!

As usual, the corrupt Imams have corrupted the meaning of this ayat 4:59 and specifically the words "those in charge". They have manipulated the meaning so as to claim for themselves blind obedience from the believers.

A final word must be included here regarding the status of religious "fatwa's". From all the above it goes without saying that all types of religious "fatwa's" (religious decrees) issued by religious figures and which are claimed to be of full binding legality, and regarded by their issuers to be on par with scriptural religious laws, are in fact unlawful and unrighteous. Any man-made religious "fatwa" is in violation of God's exclusive right as the Only Law Maker.

qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 1006
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Imamat

#4

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:18 am

u have rightly explained this ayat bro
further it can also be aruged that "those who are in charge" is relative and not absolute.
it depends upon situation and circumstances
eg--if u have physical or medical problem--then those who r in charge may mean the doctor u select,
and u have to obey him thorougly only to the extent he does not prescribe or say which goes against islam
like eating pork or alcohol(this is the meaning of "If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger,")
likewise if u have disgreement in financial or educational matters--go to the person who is in charge --most qualified or most knowledgble in that matter, and once u select that person--obey him.
i dont know how much this is true, just having discussion on this topic long back with like minded friends
and someone from our groups said this.

Peace
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:46 am

Re: Imamat

#5

Unread post by Peace » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:47 am

badrijanab wrote: Question) Does Quran commands to believers to obey an authorised person other than Messenger Mohammed s.a.w.w.?
Answer)
Yes. Refer Quran 4:59 - O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Three parties are identified whom one has to obey:
1. Allah
2. Messanger
3. Authorised person
Dear Badrijanab,
I have a little question. Everyone will second this opinion that if someone is appointed by Allah SWT then you cannot differ/disagree with that person.

By reading this ayah you can say that you can differ/disagree with the authorised person.

As per you
badrijanab wrote: Q) Who will be authorised person?
Answer) Whom Allah will appoint via his messenger.
So if authorised person is appointed by Allah SWT then how can you then differ/disagree with authorised person as per above ayah 4:59?

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imamat

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:48 pm

So if authorised person is appointed by Allah SWT then how can you then differ/disagree with authorised person as per above ayah 4:59?
You will never be able to disagree with badrijanab's authorised person because you will never be able to find him in the first place. He went into hiding as soon as he got appointed by Allah cause he thought the same thing. What if people disagree with him? That would be a disaster for badrijanab. So he went into hiding. Problem solved. And now badrijanab has also gone into hiding.

feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Imamat

#7

Unread post by feelgud » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:54 pm

Please refer to "Sura Nisa Aya 59 (004.059) which reads:
YUSUFALI:
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination."
******************
1. Expressions always have a clear and a default meaning. We are only allowed to change this meaning when there is a strong evidence for it. Ulil Amr Minkum, simply means "Those in Charge Among You". This is very crystal clear. To say that this can be only one meaning and another meaning could be Divinely Appointed Infallible Imams simply means to refuse the default and appear meaning of the verse and to assume a very distant and specific meaning for it. This needs a strong evidence in the verse itself and I can not see such evidence. In fact the very point that Ulil Amr are not included as points of reference at the end of the verse backs up its default and clear meaning. So as soon as you agree that the verse can be interpreted in its apparent meaning, you need to do that and to accept that meaning, unless you can bring a strong evidence to suggest that the verse cannot be interpreted as it appears.
2. You wrote " in case of any dispute the Imams also refer back to Qur’an and Sunnah to pass their judgments". I'm afraid this is not what the verse is saying. The verse says: "In case YOU had any dispute about something (YOU) refer it to the Qur'an and the Prophet (pbuh)." YOU in the verse cannot mean Ulil Amr. It can only mean those people who were instructed to follow God, the Prophet (pbuh) and the Ulil Amr. It may include Ulil Amr as well but it cannot be only Ulil Amr. If the verse wanted to give the meaning that you suggested, it had to say "In case you had any dispute about something THEY (i.e. Ulil Amr) should refer it to the Qur'an and the Prophet (pbuh).".
3. If Ulil Amr in the verse referred to infallible Imams, then when it says at the end of the verse that in case of dispute you need to refer to God and the Prophet (pbuh) it would have added Ulil Amr as well. In other words it would have said: "and if you disputed in anything then refer it to God and the prophet and the Ulil Amr". It does not say that, simply because other than God and (with His protection) the Prophet (pbuh), no other infallible source was available or was going to be made available.
4. Look at verse 83 of the same Sura. It says instead of spreading any news related to security or fear, they should have referred it to the Prophet (pbuh) and those in charge. If we consider Ulil Amr to mean Imams that come after the Prophet (pbuh) then what the relevance of this verse was to its primary addressee, that is, the companions? Also, does this mean that at the time of an 'infallible' Imam, if there comes a news about security or fear, instead of referring it to the head of the army or other people in charge, we need to keep it secret and only reveal it to the infallible Imam? Is this even practical?
5. Similar to the above, just imagine what could the primary addressees of this verse possibly understand from it if Ulil Amr meant infallible Imams to come after the Prophet (pbuh). Please note that according to the theory of Imamah, the Prophet (pbuh) himself was an Imam, so by definition of this theory the Prophet (pbuh) himself was one of the Ulil Amr. So the verse according to this theory would have the following meaning for its primary addressees: "Obey God and obey the Prophet and THOSE in charge of affairs (that again means the Prophet - pbuh - only as he was the only Imam of his time"!
6. If Ulil Amr meant an infallible Imam (who according to the theory of Imamah can only be one individual at any time) then instead of plural, it should have been singular. It is plural because it simply refers to any one in charge of affairs, which obviously can be more than one person at any time.
7. Obviously following Imams who are divinely appointed and infallible would be a fundamental part of the religion. In that case why only this verse is supposedly referring to this important concept? There are numerous verses of the Qur'an where the instruction is to follow God and the Prophet (pbuh) - 3:32, 3:132, 4:69, 5:92, 8:1, 8:20, 8:46, 24:54, 47:33, 58:13, 64:12 - why following Ulil Amr is not included in any of these to establish the foundation of the theory of Imamah?

feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Imamat

#8

Unread post by feelgud » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:07 pm

8. In Nahjulbalaghah, a book that is believed by our Shia brothers to contain authentic sermons, letters and statements by Ali (ra), there is a letter to Maalik al-Ashtar, the governer of Ali (ra) for Egypt. This is letter number 53. The letter contains instructions and advice to Maalik al-Ashtar. Part of the letter reads as follows:
"When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide. The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the clear and explicit orders given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of his orders about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded."
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter53
It is clear from the above that according to the author of this letter, Maalik was an Ulil Amr and he was advised to follow the instruction of the Qur'an and to refer to the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) in case of problems. If to the author of this letter, Ulil Amr meant infallible Imams, then the above advice should have been something to this effect:
"When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve ... , then refer it to me (as your Ulil Amr) and I will solve it for you in accordance to the Qur'an and the Sunnah."
9. The vast majority of Shia brothers in our era (who are Usuli Imami Shia) consider the Qur'an, as we have it today, to be immune of any man made changes. It is perhaps the fact that the verse (as it is) is irrelevant and in fact contrary to the theory of Imamah that has prompted some Shia scholars of the past to quote narrations suggesting that the correct ending of the verse, as it was revealed, was as follows:
"... and if you found dispute on something then refer it to God and the Prophet 'and the Ulil Amr from among you' ..."
(al-Kaafi, 1:276, Tafseer of Qumi, 1:141, Tafseer Ayyashi, 1:254).
May God guide all of us (Shia and Sunni) to understand our religion from the Qur'an and then to evaluate our beliefs accordingly, rather than the other way round. Ameen.
Author: Abdullah Rahim
http://www.al-mawrid.org/pages/question ... 57&cid=373