Clarification Of The Doubts of The Associationists

[silvertongue]

Coz Rasulallah Said," Ali is the Wali (Guardian) of every believer after me". It is obligatory to follow Ali a.s. if you OBEY and LOVE Rasulallah. We follow what the messenger of Allah tells us to. - Sahih Al Tirmidhi Vol. 6 Hadith 3713.

In 'Hadith 3718: Rasullah says that,"Allah orders us to Love Ali, Abu Dharr, Miqdad & Salman'..

[morela]

o MY GOD!! this is the second time you are repeating the same LIE, eARLIER few months back YOU had posted the same tirmizi lie and I gave a link to the actual hadith

It does not have "After me"

!!

[morela]

http://sunnah.com/urn/635920

use following search query:
"ali mawla"~5

[silvertongue]

I can give u the link and a snapshot from the real Al Tirmidhi bro but times up and im rushing for home. .cya tmrw

[morela]

sure do send it i have very easy access to all major books , my wife herself is Alim, fazil takhassus and can discern the books well

[silvertongue]

Im sorry for this delay, some turn of unfortunate events. It happens. Anyways here is a hadith from the website that you look forward to. Please notice the last sentence as well. in Arabic (WALI) means guardian, whereas many translators change it to friend, I don't understand why?

http://sunnah.com/urn/635910

Here are some other references regarding the Ahlul Bayt.
http://sunnah.com/urn/635940
http://sunnah.com/urn/1251490
http://sunnah.com/urn/636040
http://sunnah.com/urn/637590
http://sunnah.com/urn/639950

[morela]

Jazakallah Khair for hunting down the relevant hadith. This hadith was said in response of provocation by 4 people who complained against Ali to Rasul SAW.
This was not a declaration of Imamate\Successorship but yes It clearly shows how much they both loved each other and for Rasul SAW Ali was always on the truth. So even when Ali fought Muawiya , Ali was on truth , similarly when Ali accepted caliphate of Abu bakr he was on truth

[silvertongue]

Brother if you clearly listen the whole sermon of Nabi a.s. during the Ghadir, it clearly states:" O people, Do I have more right over you than your own selves," They all shouted "Yes Ya Rasulallah, and he made it call them 3 times, Then he said," Allah is my master, I am the master of the mumin, and of whomsoever I am the Master, Ali is his master, and the Wali of every believer after me." This whole incident you will find in the Tafseer of Hadith Ghadeer E khum..

Just quoting this sentence"Of Whomseover..." and you claiming that it was coz of some conflict between khalid. Bro that conflict was ended before even Nabi a.s. performed Hajj. Its like quoting an aggressive Ayat from Quran about killing disbelievers which all these enemies of Islam uses without context.. So i advice you to understand the Background of Hadith Ghadeer E khum,.. And the whole version of the sermon brother. Coz Nabi a.s. didnt said this only on Ghadir but on many occasions like the hadith tht i qouted earlier. Even there and many occasions. But Ghadir without a doubt is the declaration of Ali a.s. authority like Nabi a.s.... My advice is read the full version of Ghadeer sermon.

check this link: http://duas.org/NEW/ghadirkhutba.htm

Refrences:

Jalaal ad-Deen al-Sayyuti, Kitaab Al-Itqaan, Vol. 1, p. 31.
al-Majlisi, Bihaar.al-Anwaar, Vol. 21, pp. 360-90, Vol. 37, pp. 111-235, and Vol. 41, p. 228.He Quotes book al-Ih'tijaj by al-Tibrisi (vol.2)
Al-Bldaaya wal Nihaaya, Vol. 5, p. 208.
Badee' al-Ma'aani, p. 75
Tareekh Baghdad, V01. 1, p. 411 and V01. 8, p. 290.
Tareekh Dimashq, Vol. 5, p. 210.
Ibn al-Jawziyya, Tadh'kirat al-Khawaas, pp. 18-20.
Ibn al-Sa'ud's Tafseer, Vol. 8, p. 292.
Al-Tibari, Tafseer al-Qur'an, Vol. 3, p. 428 and Vol. 6, p. 46.
al-Fakhr al-Razi, Al-Tafseer al-Kabeer, Vol. 3, p. 636.
Al-Tamhid fi USool al-Deen, p. 171.
Tayseer al-Wusul, Vol. 1, p. 122.
Ghiyaath ad-Din ibn Hammaam, Tareekh Habib al-Siyar, V01. 1, p. 144.
al-Maqrizi, Khutat, p. 223.
al-Sayyuti, Al-Durr al-Manthur, Vol. 2, pp. 259, 298.
Thakhaa'ir al-'Uqba, p. 68.
Ruh al-Ma'aani, Vol. 2, p. 348.
Mohibb al-Tabal-;, AI.Riyadh al-r:adhirah, Vol. 2, p.169.
Al-Siraaj al-Munir, Vol. 4, p. 364.
al-Hakim, Al-Seera al-Halabiyya, Vol. 3, p. 302.
Shar'h al-Mawaahib, V01. 7, p. 13.
Ibn Hajar al-' Asqalaani, Al-Sawaa'iq al-Muhriqa, p. 26.
Ibn al-Badriq, Al-'Umda, p. 52.
Badr ad-Deen, 'Umdat al-Qari fi Shar'h al-Bukhari, V01. 8, p. 584.
al-Ghadeer, V01. 2, p. 57.
Sharafud-Deen al-Musawi, AI-Fusul al-Muhimma, pp. 25-27.
Fadha 'il al-Sahaaba, p. 272.
Faydh al-Ghadeer, V01. 6, p. 218.
Kashf al-Ghumma, p. 94.
Kifaayat al- Taalib, pp. 17, 28.
al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummaal, Vol. 6, p. 397.
Imam Ibn Hanbal, Mus'nad, V01. 4, p. 281.
Mishkaat al-Masabeeh, p. 272.
Mushkil al-aathaar, Vol. 3, p. 196.
Mataalib al-Su'ul, p. 16.
Muftah al-Najaat, p. 216.
al-Shahristaani, AI-Milal wal Nihal, V 01. 1, p. 220.
al-Khawarizmi, Manaaqib, pp. 80, 94.
Ibn al-Maghaazli, Manaaqib, p. 232.
al-Qastalani, Al-Mawaahib, Vol. 2, p. 13.
al-Samhudi, Wafaa' al-Wafaa', Vol. 2, p. 173.
al-Qanduzi, Yanabi al-Mawadda, p. 120.


Again I would say, those who want to accept will accept otherwise they will stick to what they believe. So upto you.. Bst of luck for tht.. Leaving nw.. Cya latr.

[morela]

Again you misquoted that "after me" comes in another context , it is not part of "Man kunto..." , Isna asharis convineitly join two different hadith to make it appear as if succession was granted. And even these are not statement of succession.

A clear statement of sucession would be like:

"Ali will be your Imam\Caliph after me"

[silvertongue]

Ghadeer was the conclusion as I always say, Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib was chosen way before that and reminded on many occasions.

Da‘wat dhul-‘Ashīrah - Summoning the Family
Islām began when Muhammad became thirty seven years old. Initially, the mission was kept a secret. Then three years after the advent of Islām, he was ordered to commence the open declaration of his message. This was the occasion when God revealed the verse “And warn thy nearest relations.” (26:214).

When this verse was revealed, Muhammad organized a feast that is known in history as “Summoning the Family — Da‘wat dhul-‘Ashīra”. He invited around forty men from the Banū Hāshim and asked ‘Alī to make arrangements for the dinner. After having served his guests with food and drinks, when he wanted to speak to them about Islam, Abu Lahab forestalled him and said, “Your host has long since bewitched you.” All the guests dispersed before Muhammad could present his message to them.

Muhammad then invited them the next day. After the feast, he spoke to them, saying:

“ “O Sons of ‘Abdul-Muttalib! By Allāh, I do not know of any person among the Arabs who has come to his people with better than what I have brought to you. I have brought to you the good of this world and the next, and I have been commanded by the Lord to call you unto Him. Therefore, who amongst you will support me in this matter so that he may be my brother (akhhī), my successor (wasiyyī) and my caliph (khalifatī) among you?”[26] ”

This was the first time that Muhammad openly and publicly called the relations to accept him as the Messenger and Prophet of God, as well as being the first time that he called for a person who would aid him in his mission. At the time, no one but the youngest of them — ‘Alī, stood up and said, “I will be your helper, O Prophet of God.”[26]

Muhammad then put his hand on the back of ‘Alī's neck and said:

“ “Inna hadhã akhhí wa wasiyyí wa khalífatí fíkum, fasma‘û lahu wa atí‘û — Verily this is my brother, my successor, and my caliph amongst you; therefore, listen to him and obey.”[26]


(Sunni sources: at-Tabari, at-Ta’ríkh, vol. 1 (Leiden, 1980 offset of the 1789 edition) p. 171-173; Ibn al-Athír, al-Kãmil, vol. 5 (Beirut, 1965) p. 62-63; Abu ’l-Fidã’, al-Mukhtasar fi Ta’ríkhi ’l-Bashar, vol. 1 (Beirut, n.d.) p. 116-117; al-Khãzin, at-Tafsír, vol. 4 (Cairo, 1955) p. 127; al-Baghawi, at-Tafsír (Ma‘ãlimu ’t-Tanzíl), vol. 6 (Riyadh: Dar Tayyiba, 1993) p. 131; al-Bayhaqi, Dalã’ilu ’n-Nubuwwa, vol. 1 (Cairo, 1969) p. 428-430; as-Suyuti, ad-Durru ’l-Manthûr, vol. 5 (Beirut, n.d.) p. 97; and Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanzu ’l-‘Ummãl, vol. 15 (Hyderabad, 1968) pp. 100, 113, 115. Further references: ‘Abdu ’l-Husayn al-Aminí, al-Ghadír, vol. 2 (Beirut, 1967) pp. 278-289. )

[silvertongue]

Brother, those who deny Ali's rights will deny everything about him no matter what. Its a test everyone has to face. Upto you to believe it or not.

[morela]

bro , again you are repeating the same mistake inspite of warning,

what do you think by writing beautifully spaced references like at-Tabari, at-Ta’ríkh, vol. 1 (Leiden, 1980 offset of the 1789 edition) p. 171-173 would make that refrence correct?

Have you yourself verified them?? You yourself had accepted the false refrences you earlier gave , now still you excercise no caution before blindly copy pasting from isna ashari propoganda?

[silvertongue]

For you its propoganda coz its about Ali a.s. bro. I have the same books with me and it has it. Now what shall we do then?.. lolz

[silvertongue]

Besides im too busy right now to check each and everything bro. And btw iev already given you the references from sunnah.com about the merits and pointers about Ali a.s. and succession. If you dont want to accept, simply say NO. that will save time for both of us.

[silvertongue]

Just imagine this, Ali a.s himself said that he was the rightful heir and people didn't listen to him, what makes u think people of todays world would accept that if their followers claim the same...

[morela]

thats your imagination, all this claims surfaced after Nusairis came into picture, Ali himself burned them and in sermon 126\7 nahjul balagha he even gave a fatwa to kill such exaggerators.


Also the above refrences you quoted are UNRELIABLE books , far from being a hadith book. So even if it contains what you like it does not act as evidence

[silvertongue]

Nusairis considered Imam Ali a.s. to be Allah (nauzobillah)... Thats the reason. And bro, first understand the difference between Nusairis and Khawarij. In Sermon 126/7 Maula Ali a.s talks about the battle of Nahrawan between him and the Khaarjites of Siffin. Nusairis are totally different. You yourself are so confused between these two that now im starting to pull my hairs out explaining this one simple thing to you.. Check your references and your history for Allah's sake pal. If you post these useless craps again, il be leaving this topic whatsoever, no matter what u judge about me COZ IT SIMPLY DOESNT MATTER...

[silvertongue]

What if I tell you that whatever u believe is your imagination pal, that will be enough for you. U cant simply judge on people bro. And btw this debate is going nowhere, even If I showed you the hadiths from sunnah.com you blindly deny it. So i find it totally USELESS and TIME WASTING to discuss it further. Its better ill contribute my time to some good knowledgable people who takes things when its shown to them rather than claiming it as a figment of imagination just coz they dont want to accept it or hurt their ego.. So cheerio with your posts and good luck with your nusairi/khaarji thing...

[morela]

Can u point which sahih hadith from sun ah.com I denied

[morela]

silvertongue wrote:
Muslim First wrote:
Subject: Does Rasulallah received Nass to become Nabi?

silvertongue wrote:
Besides, YES, the Prophet out of his own will didnt appoint Ali a.s. as his Successor. Allah swt ordered Nabi a.s. to appoint Ali a.s. as the Successor of the Prophethood. The prophet does not speak out of his own will remember..


Please quote Sura and Aya


You are not a newbie here Muslimfirst. You very well know what i am talking about. The revelation verse, The perfection of religion verse and the Questioner verse, all give context of the succession. Either you believe it or not its not gonna change that the rights of Ali a.s. were usurped and Islam was hijacked in the most brutal way possible.


I know it is5:3

Shia love to pick half verse and invent context to suite their deviant desire .
Verse was revealed before ferewell khutba in Macca

Here it is complete verse,
Q5:003
Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytatah (the dead animals - cattle-beast not slaughtered), blood, the flesh of swine, and the meat of that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah, or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., or on which Allah's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns - and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal - unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) - and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on An-Nusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to use arrows seeking luck or decision, (all) that is Fisqun (disobedience of Allah and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Maudidi comments: According to authentic traditions this verse was revealed in 10 A.H. on the occasion of the Prophet's Farewell Pilgrimage. The context however, seems to indicate that it was revealed soon after the conclusion of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah (i.e. in 6 A.H.). All parts of the discourse in which this verse occurs are so tightly interwoven and so closely inter-connected that it hardly seems conceivable that it should have been inserted here several years later. My own estimate - and true knowledge of this lies with God alone - is that this verse was originally revealed in its present context (i.e. commenting upon the conditions prevailing at the time of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah). It is conceivable that the true significance of the verse was not then fully appreciated. But later on, when Islam prevailed over the whole of Arabia and the power of Islam reached a high point, God once again revealed this sentence to His Messenger and ordered him to proclaim it.
*17. See Towards Understanding the Qur'an, vol. I, Surah 2, n. 172.

Worshippers of Ali RA and Ahl e bait will lie thru their teeth to peruse their deviant religion.
Salam brother

Brother morela

You may put this in thread. I am not allowed to post anywhere nor I am allowed to terminate my membership in this forum.
Muslim First

Posts: 6826
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

[araz5253]

@mamaji wala I found this thread which replies those doubts you might have.

[topiwala]

I can't believe that wahabbis think as if we are kafir mushrik as written above, so this is where all this terrorism comes from. Wahhabis expose themselves we don't even need to meddle with such outcast people. See how he has decieved by using an odd word like associanists rather then using the direct term Mushrik to hide their deception.

[araz5253]

topiwala , are you new here? we do believe these dargah goers are Mushriks and havent you heard in clear terms anajmi saying them idol worshippers? we are open in condemming all types of zulm , the biggest being this "shirk"

[zinger]

topiwala , are you new here? we do believe these dargah goers are Mushriks and havent you heard in clear terms anajmi saying them idol worshippers? we are open in condemming all types of zulm , the biggest being this "shirk"

Please!!! Dont make us laugh.

The last thing you guys are is open!!!

If you were, you would not need to hide behind pseudonyms!!!

Face it, you guys dont have a life of your own, which is why you spend it all the time here, knowing fully well how unwanted you are. What a pity!

And whatever gave you the idea we give 2 hoots about what you guys think? Unfortunately, the life of people like you revolves around this site and and a community you are not even a part of. What an even greater pity!!!

[araz5253]

we are not hiding , it is you who are living in a borewell and dont want to change and come out of your borewell inspite of clear evidence based arguments. pseudonyms are just username handles , our concern is only to convey the message there are many bohras who have changed to Quran and SUnnah , many dont come here or get blocked by admin, nevertheless it is our inner willingness to reform our former community members for sincere love towards them, we may sound bitter , but truth is sometimes unpalatable.

if I go by your thinking then even none of the reformists are part of the community as all have broken their misaaq, I guess even you might have broken your misq(to which dai?)

[zinger]

we are not hiding , it is you who are living in a borewell and dont want to change and come out of your borewell inspite of clear evidence based arguments. pseudonyms are just username handles , our concern is only to convey the message there are many bohras who have changed to Quran and SUnnah , many dont come here or get blocked by admin, nevertheless it is our inner willingness to reform our former community members for sincere love towards them, we may sound bitter , but truth is sometimes unpalatable.

if I go by your thinking then even none of the reformists are part of the community as all have broken their misaaq, I guess even you might have broken your misq(to which dai?)

You have lost the plot my friend. you are completely off tangent in your reply.

please do read my post again. my only suggestion to you would be to get a life and bother about cleaning your own house which is in shambles. dont worry about a community that you no longer belong to / dont belong to

[KA786110]

we are open in condemming all types of zulm , the biggest being this "shirk"

ROFL
You are so lame in your thinking. Shirk is the biggest zulm? Go and get your head examined? Biggest zulm is killing human beings just because they do not subscribe to your way of thinking.

Shirk is a big sin but not a zulm on others. It is a grave injury to ones own faith but does not affect any other person. God is all powerful yet He gives every human being opportunity to mend ones way. So be warned and stop being someone's instrument in spreading fallacies.

[araz5253]

Yes Allah himself equates shirk with greatest zulm. It may seem odd to the uninformed but Inshallah I will later post the amazing reasoning behind why Allah has called shirk the greatest zulm and why are Mushriks the biggest zalims:


About shirk Allah, the Most High said:

"Indeed Allah does not forgive shirk (that you associate any partners with Him), but He forgives other than that to whom He pleases." [An Nisaa 4:48]

He, the Sublime said:

"Indeed shirk is the greatest oppression." [Luqman: 13]

Allah, the Most High also said:

"...Indeed he who associates partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Jannah (Paradise) for him, and the Fire (of Hell) will be his abode ."

[Al-Maaida 5:72]

In addition to that, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "Shall I not inform you about the greatest of sins?" We said: "Surely, O Messenger of Allah". He (peace be upon him) said: "Associating partners (shirk) with Allah….."

[Bukhari and Muslim]

[topiwala]

So what ? It is you who shout shirk shirk , did rasulallah shout shirk ?

[anajmi]

Actually, Allah talks about shirk and mushriks many many times in the Quran. So yes!!