The hidden Imam

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humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: The hidden Imam

#31

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:15 am

Upon Zinger’s surprise on SMB touted as Imam. I am searching for a post by “Al Zulfiqar” wherein he had posted a face to face discussion with a devout abde who had attended high level sabaks, wherein it was brainwashed into aala-darja-saba-graduate-abdes that SMB is the Imam.

Also as I mentioned, I have heard hush-hush rumours of such sabaks being dishes out where, SMB was mentioned as Imam. Some time also in Bayan, Amils in the zeal of their exaggeration they have commented on SMB possibly being Imam.

During the search, came across the below post upon one of the qualities of being “Ghaib-Na-jaankar”

Sorry for diversion here, but it is related to bohra belief structure.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6982


porus wrote:The above is from Section 18 of Qadi Noman's al-Majaalis wa al-Musaayiraat. It is entitled " Statement on Exaggerators".

Rough Translation:

I, (Qadi Noman), heard Imam Qaa'im bi-Amrillah say that:

He (Imam) has heard concerning a group of Dais who exaggerate concerning him and his ancestors, the truthful Imams, saying that "They have the knowledge of Ghayb". Curse be upon them. They cast aspersions on us and tell lies about us. By Allah, they wish nothing except to portray us as liars and keep people from us.

Qadi Noman continues quoting Imam Muiz li-Dinillah as saying that the "ghayb" entrusted to Imams is not hidden from the people. Imam Muiz then quotes the ayat 65 of Sura al-Naml (27:65)

قُل لَّا يَعْلَمُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ الْغَيْبَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ

Say: “None in the heavens or on earth knows the hidden reality [of anything that exists: none knows it] save God.” (Asad Translation)

Imam Muiz says that it is as Allah says (sadqallah).

*****

Thus the popular notion that Imams and their Dais are 'ghayb na jaannaar' has been squarely condemned by Imams as reported by Sayedna Qadi Noman.
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ghulam muhammed
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: The hidden Imam

#32

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:35 pm

humanbeing wrote:Also as I mentioned, I have heard hush-hush rumours of such sabaks being dishes out where, SMB was mentioned as Imam.
Iam in agreement with your above statement as I have also heard similar stories from some sabak going abdes.

zinger
Posts: 2031
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The hidden Imam

#33

Unread post by zinger » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:12 am

truth seeker100 wrote:
zinger wrote: What nonsense! Who said this? the first time i heard such utter rubbish was on this site when some joker here was joking about how this "might be a possibility"
Correct me if im wrong, but its not just a Shia belief but a Christian and a Jewish belief too, about Christ arriving to save the world from the anti-Christ/Dajjal

Also, isnt the coming of Dajjal also mentioned by Prophet Muhammad (SAW)? Is that also a theory or a fanciful tale?

By the way, all Muslims, Shia AND SUNNI TOO believe in the coming of Dajjal
Correction zinger, even Muslims believe in the coming of Christ to fight the anti christ
i think it was quite obvious that i posted SUNNI because according to my friend Human Being, it is a Shia theory

kindly inform HB that he is misinformed. not me.

zinger
Posts: 2031
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The hidden Imam

#34

Unread post by zinger » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:27 am

humanbeing wrote:Upon Zinger’s surprise on SMB touted as Imam. I am searching for a post by “Al Zulfiqar” wherein he had posted a face to face discussion with a devout abde who had attended high level sabaks, wherein it was brainwashed into aala-darja-saba-graduate-abdes that SMB is the Imam.

Also as I mentioned, I have heard hush-hush rumours of such sabaks being dishes out where, SMB was mentioned as Imam. Some time also in Bayan, Amils in the zeal of their exaggeration they have commented on SMB possibly being Imam.

During the search, came across the below post upon one of the qualities of being “Ghaib-Na-jaankar”

Sorry for diversion here, but it is related to bohra belief structure.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6982


porus wrote:The above is from Section 18 of Qadi Noman's al-Majaalis wa al-Musaayiraat. It is entitled " Statement on Exaggerators".

Rough Translation:

I, (Qadi Noman), heard Imam Qaa'im bi-Amrillah say that:

He (Imam) has heard concerning a group of Dais who exaggerate concerning him and his ancestors, the truthful Imams, saying that "They have the knowledge of Ghayb". Curse be upon them. They cast aspersions on us and tell lies about us. By Allah, they wish nothing except to portray us as liars and keep people from us.

Qadi Noman continues quoting Imam Muiz li-Dinillah as saying that the "ghayb" entrusted to Imams is not hidden from the people. Imam Muiz then quotes the ayat 65 of Sura al-Naml (27:65)

قُل لَّا يَعْلَمُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ الْغَيْبَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ

Say: “None in the heavens or on earth knows the hidden reality [of anything that exists: none knows it] save God.” (Asad Translation)

Imam Muiz says that it is as Allah says (sadqallah).

*****

Thus the popular notion that Imams and their Dais are 'ghayb na jaannaar' has been squarely condemned by Imams as reported by Sayedna Qadi Noman.

well, i for one could not find the "face to face discussion with a devout abde who had attended high level sabaks, wherein it was brainwashed into aala-darja-saba-graduate-abdes that SMB is the Imam" that you talked about, but nonetheless, the fact that you are basing your arguments on the foundation of a post made by the resident joker tells me a lot about you

anyways, allow me to reproduce below, what you said, in that same very post, you said
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb
by humanbeing on Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:59 pm
Adam wrote:Yes, the Dai is NOT the Imam. He is is vicegerent.
And NO Dai as ever claimed to be. Publicly OR in Secret (you're claims are false)

Hi Adam
Please let me clarify your misunderstanding. I have never claimed or even believe that Dai is Imam. I m being told this misinformation as conveyed in secret sabaks. My sources of misinformation as you perceive; is this forum, social discussions in thaals and get togethers. I agree I personally have not heard from authentic sources. My sources can be rejected as unauthentic.

I m not so shocked at such revelation coming from euphoric lovers. But point is, why such rumors, figment of imagination, exaggerations, lies, misinformation allowed or tolerated in social circles. It would be surprising if local amils, or shehzada are not aware of such rumors doing the rounds. If they are, then why such rumors are not debunked in public sermons.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

you admit you have not hear it from authentic sources and hence your sources can be rejected as unauthentic.

so you admit it is all a bunch of BS from some ignorant fools, yet you want to push this down my throat? that we believe the Dai is the Imam? So basically you accept its false but want to convince me that we should believe its true? Have i lost the plot here or have you?

As to your question that if it is BS then why is it not being debunked by an Aamil, i suggest you ask your cause im gonna ask mine

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The hidden Imam

#35

Unread post by JC » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:18 am

Bohraism is a great Soap-Opera .......... a never-ending drama with twists and turns ......... about a family who 'rules' a group of people. Imam, Dai, etc are just characters ..... played by competent (and shrewd) actors ............... Sub Say Aacha Dhundha, Dharam Ka Dhundha, .......... Drama Ka Drama, Dhandhay Ka Dhandha .......

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: The hidden Imam

#36

Unread post by alam » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:41 am

humanbeing wrote:Also as I mentioned, I have heard hush-hush rumours of such sabaks being dishes out where, SMB was mentioned as Imam.
Malik Ashtar was going around with his cronies claiming SMB As a much higher rutba and shaan than Isaa Nabi. No hush hush there.
Go figure.

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The hidden Imam

#37

Unread post by JC » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:17 pm

alam wrote:
humanbeing wrote:Also as I mentioned, I have heard hush-hush rumours of such sabaks being dishes out where, SMB was mentioned as Imam.
Malik Ashtar was going around with his cronies claiming SMB As a much higher rutba and shaan than Isaa Nabi. No hush hush there.
Go figure.
MB was a Hidden God, who is now dead ........... oh no, wait, he is 'immortal' just that he is 'resting' in his grave ........ :roll: Yeah Issa Nabi, Mohammad Nabi, Ali aur Hussain Kiya Baychatay hain .............. Labaika Ya Dai-Allah, Dai Kee Surat May Bhawan Ka Darshan Ho Gaya ...............

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#38

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:42 pm

Crater Lake wrote:
DisillusionedDB wrote: Coincidently, today itself I stumbled upon the same thing (while reading about some other history). The screen grab attached is from a Wikipedia article. I don't know how far this is true or false.
Bohra belief is that nizar was never the mansoos. The nass had always been done on Mustaali. Our belief is that imamat is transferred at birth.
Is it only the bohora belief? Or is it written somewhere proving Nizar's nass wrong, independent of bohora belief. Has to be only bohora belief, because History written by others says otherwise. Please read the quote provided by Disillusioned bohora. I can provide many more and none of them would be from our books or our beliefs. When I say from our books, I mean expressly written by Nizari Ismailis. All of the writers are westerners. Also, a lot from wikipedia which I normally do not use. But I shall have to use it here because you might accuse us of using western scholars at IIS who are on IIS pay. Please understand researchers do not put their reputation on line based on pay.

When Mustelians left Egypt, they took with them a lot of Fatimid literature which is now under Dawoodi bohora's control.

Why are they not releasing this to prove their Imamat?Historians like Paul Walker complained that Saifee Mahal would not show them original scripts but photocopied ones and they could see lines were changed.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not here to challenge you, I am here to speak on behalf of my beliefs as I have read and understood from western writers. I would like to learn from you if the nass was done on Musteali, at birth, then why did people find out on the death of Imam Mustansir. There was 20+ years between two brothers. Do you think Imam Mustansir waited 20 + years to do nass on Musteali, not at his birth, but on his own deathbed?

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#39

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:55 pm

Here is more on the topic from wikipedia. Brother Adam, can you shed some light on this?

How is Imamat transferred at birth. Can you give an example? Who saw Imam Mustansir transfer Imamat at Birth to Musteali? Actually historians claim that Imam Mustansir AS was given nass when he was 8 months old so there was no nass at birth. Does this prove that it is not true that nass is given at birth?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizar_(Fatimid_Imam)

Abū Manṣūr Nizār al-Muṣṭafá li-Dīn’il-Lāh (1045-1097, Arabic: أبومنصور نزار المصطفى لدين الله‎) was a Nizāri Ismā‘ilī Imām. Following the death of his father, Al-Mustansir Billah, he was deposed by his brother, Aḥmad al-Musta‘lī but his son, al-Hādī ibn Nizār, escaped to Alamūt and took refuge with believers there, thereby continuing the Imāmate.
The followers of Nizār's descendants constitute the majority of the Ismā‘ilī today, with the smaller Musta‘lī branch accepting his younger brother who overthrew him and the Druze ending the Imāmate before either of them.
In his "History of the Ismailis", A.S. Picklay says, "Although Nizar was the rightful claimant to the throne after his father's death, his younger brother Aḥmad al-Musta‘lī, supported by his father-in-law, the chief Vizier Badr al-Jamali, usurped all the power." He further writes, "Mustaali, feeling insecure during Nizar's existence, plotted against Imam Nizar and finally succeeded in making him a prisoner along with his two sons."
In Egypt, Imam Nizar continued his struggle up to 490 A.H., when he was killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mustansir_Billah

Abū Tamīm Ma'add al-Mustanṣir bi-llāh (Arabic: المستنصر‎) (July 5, 1029 – January 10, 1094) was born in Cairo on 16th Jumada II, 420 AH and at the age of only eight months was declared to succeed his father. His name was Ma'd Abu Tamim, surnamed al-Mustansir bil-Lah "The Asker Of Victory From God". He ascended to the Fatimid Caliphate throne on 15th Shaban, 427/June 13, 1036 at the age of 6. During the early years of his Caliphate, the state affairs were administered by his mother. His period of Caliphate lasted for 60 years, the longest of all the caliphs, either in Egypt or elsewhere in Islamic states.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#40

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:57 pm

Adam, please tell me what does Mansoos mean. Please pardon my ignorance.

If Imam is born Imam then what about hazarat Tayeb, who was not even born when hazarat Amir was killed. So there was no Imam in charge of Imamat. I hope you will not tell me now "the story of the sperm"......

It is a Shia belief that the earth is never without an Imam. Well, there was a gap here and there was no bohora Imam on earth and Amir's cousin, who was known as Hafiz took over. He expelled the family to Yemen because he wanted to retain power himself. In fact Ivanov writes there was a birth of a girl and not a boy.

You may not find all this in bohora books, or bayans, because none of my bohora friends even know this. My post contains not Ismaili (Nizari) beliefs or from Nizari books but from well researched western history writers and every link I quoted here speaks that Musteali usurped power with the help of his father-in-law and that Nizar was the rightful Imam.

Why does Saifee Mahal not release the original scripts? Why do they hand out altered photo copies of scripts?
In this world just saying "it is our belief" does not jive. People are well educated and do not accept, as serious a thing as Imamat as "a belief". They want proofs.

My bohora friends did not even know baby Tayeb was not born when Hazarat Amir was killed. They did not know who Hafiz was. And these are people who are believers. They are good people.

In Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of Imamate, hamid-al-Kirmani writes: If there were no imam now, there could not have been one in the past; if the duties of the imam are not currently fulfilled by a properly designated descendant, the ancestor cannot have been the imam.

maddy
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:12 am

Re: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Co

#41

Unread post by maddy » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:51 am

My bohora friends did not even know baby Tayeb was not born when Hazarat Amir was killed. They did not know who Hafiz was.



Even I don't know anything about it.
Really wonder . .
Can you please explain me this in sort
Thanx in advance. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .