Difining God

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MUSTAPH
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#1

Unread post by MUSTAPH » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:25 am

Maethist

The most absurd Statement heard today is you cannot understand God. If you understand what is God I think your entire view to religion will be clearer.

Do you think God is someone up there with some magic wand getting things done. Or, let's understand what is your definition of God.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#2

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:04 pm

MUSTAPH wrote:Maethist

The most absurd Statement heard today is you cannot understand God. If you understand what is God I think your entire view to religion will be clearer.

Do you think God is someone up there with some magic wand getting things done. Or, let's understand what is your definition of God.
O, my God! Not another wannabe anajmi!

OK, I will give you the benefit of doubt and, as long as you are able to shut out the inherent noise created by His Overwhelming Majesty anajmi's interference in every conversation on this forum, I will say my piece.

First, let me deal with the paradox of defining God. To define God is to confine Him. And God cannot be confined.

Think about what you mean by the word 'definition'. To define an entity is to isolate it and distinguish it from all other entities.

Can you isolate God without being unjustifiably anthropomorphic. that is, by giving Him human or material characteristic?

Take one example. God is infinitely powerful. When you think of 'powerful' do you think in terms horse-power of automobiles or of muscular strength of a body-builder? Or do you think of it in terms of magical powers of Dumbledore? If you do, you have confined Him. Same with all other qualities devised by humans for God.

So, God is nothing like anything you can think of or imagine.

That is what Quran says too. In 'Qul huwallaho ahad' surat, He says 'lam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad', meaning 'there is no one or no thing like Him' But then Quran goes on to say 'He is this and He is that', 'You see that tree?, There is evidence of God'. etc. etc.' Pretty paradoxical, and confusing too? Wouldn't you say?

OK. I have said my piece. Now what is your definition of God?

Again, ignore His Majesty anajmi's wise input. His input is inherent noise as defined in 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. It is impossible to eradicate. It increases entropy of the Universe and we must live with it like we have to endure a stone stuck in our shoe!

Biradar
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Difining God

#3

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:43 pm

I must admit, that I have great sympathy for the view point of maethist. In Ismaili literature god is utterly transcendent and unknowable. The conception of Tawhid is also very subtle. For example, Syedna Hamid ad-din Kirmani wrote an epistle on this, which is also available in translation. It has been transcribed on the following link:

http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/2011/09/i ... awhid.html

Of course, this is probably incomprehensible to those who do not have a background on the metaphysics of creation and divinity in Ismailism. However, the interested person can make a trip to the library and spend a few days or months learning some more. It is well worth the effort.

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#4

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:51 pm

The above post by maethist is nothing but nonsensical garbage. For example God says - 'there is no one or no thing like Him'. And then when God says He is Raheem and Rahman, if confuses maethist. So what is the conclusion?

a) God cannot be defined
b) maethist is unable to understand God

The answer is pretty obvious.
Take one example. God is infinitely powerful. When you think of 'powerful' do you think in terms horse-power of automobiles or of muscular strength of a body-builder? Or do you think of it in terms of magical powers of Dumbledore? If you do, you have confined Him. Same with all other qualities devised by humans for God.
When you say that so and so is a powerful politician, do think in terms of horse-power of automobiles or of muscular strength of a body-builder? Or do you think of it in terms of magical powers of Dumbledore? The answer is - none of the above. The problem is that maethist cannot think of 'powerful' outside of his own limited scope. He is limited to the definition of powerful with only the above 3 ideas. So it is his own shortcoming that he is projecting onto everyone else.

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:54 pm

And by the way, the reason he doesn't want me responding to his posts is because he wants to keep sounding smart to the rest of the people over here. And he knows that once I respond, his stupidity lies exposed.

maethist
Posts: 152
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#6

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:14 pm

Your holy eminence, anajmi, the great,

I remain in awe of your electrifying, breath-taking erudition. My stupidity lies exposed. Oh, great one, I bow down at you and prostrate at your feet. Such an absolutely, gripping and sensational conclusion. Thank you, your holiness, I am forever in your debt!

maethist
Posts: 152
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#7

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:23 pm

anajmi wrote:And by the way, the reason he doesn't want me responding to his posts is because he wants to keep sounding smart to the rest of the people over here. And he knows that once I respond, his stupidity lies exposed.
Your sanguine majesty,

I would never deign to ever not wanting your highness to respond to my posts. That would be to stoop too low. How else can I learn of my stupidity? I am just preparing others to expect your response as they expect the Sun to come up each morning. If I mentioned not wanting your response, then I am guilty to even hint at such demeaning comment about the greatest Muslim ever to have graced this earth. I beg your forgiveness, O great one.

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:25 pm

Thank you. Exposing some more of your stupidity now.

Since we got into automobile horse-power while trying to define God (or not define God, or whatever) here is another analogy.

A flight. Let us say two guys get to the airport, A and B.
A says that he has faith that this flight will take him to his destination.
B says that he has no faith that this flight will take him to his destination.

Who needs to have understood the flight better? A or B? The answer is B. If he were to say that he has no faith because he is unable to understand the flight or is unable to define the flight, people might ask him to get his head examined.

And yet that is what the atheist claims. He claims to have no faith because he is unable to understand and is unable to define. That is probably the reason why God says in the Quran that the believers are those who have aql. The atheist needs to get his head examined.

maethist
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#9

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:29 pm

Such erudition! My mind gets ever more boggled,

I remain, eternally in your debt.

Your stupid servant.

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:31 pm

Bro Biradar,

I went through a few paragraphs from the link that you posted. And you are right. I will be able to understand God much before I will be able to understand that article.

maethist
Posts: 152
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#11

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:33 pm

I, ever in your debt, your holiness anajmi, ask if you will descend from your throne and define 'God' for us, mere plebians..

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:52 pm

God is infinitely powerful.

maethist
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#13

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:01 pm

anajmi wrote:God is infinitely powerful.
Is that a definition?

Sorry to be stupid again. But could you define 'infinite' and 'powerful'?

Does infinite mean 'not limited', 'not confinable' etc?

Does powerful mean 'able to use energy'?

Does energy mean 'ability to do work' etc.

Could I not say He is just a Great Magician somewhere in the sky? Seeing that He can conjure up anything from nothing.

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:29 pm

Infinite means that which is not finite.

Powerful means that which is full of power. Infinitely powerful means that which has infinite power.
Does powerful mean 'able to use energy'?
Sure. Infinitely powerful means 'no need to use energy'.
Does energy mean 'ability to do work' etc.
Sure. God has the ability to do any and all work without needing to spend any of his energy. Cause...... you guessed it. He is infinitely powerful.

You should not say he is a great magician because if people haven't read Harry Potter they might think of P.C. Sorkar instead of Dumbledore. Just say he is God and he is great. Simple. He has identified various attributes of his self in the Quran. You should refer to him by those names/attributes. "Great Magician" is not one of them.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:36 pm

Infinite means that which is not finite.

Powerful means that which is full of power. Infinitely powerful means that which has infinite power.
Does powerful mean 'able to use energy'?
Sure. Infinitely powerful means 'no need to use energy'.
Does energy mean 'ability to do work' etc.
Sure. God has the ability to do any and all work without needing to spend any of his energy. Cause...... you guessed it. He is infinitely powerful.

You should not say he is a great magician because if people haven't read Harry Potter they might think of P.C. Sorkar instead of Dumbledore. Just say he is God and he is great. Simple. He has identified various attributes of his self in the Quran. You should refer to him by those names/attributes. "Great Magician" is not one of them.

JC
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Re: Difining God

#16

Unread post by JC » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:36 pm

Bro Maethist,

I had similar questions like you too ............ what I did to see it from a simple perspective ........ since we go by 'logic' and 'reason' and 'science' etc ...............

What is less illogical ..... there is NO God and this whole galaxy is on its own, automatic, just existing ....OR..... there IS a God who created all this and now is in total control ..... definitely the latter is less illogical, hence we accept that as a 'fact'.

There could be a question - than 'who' created God?? No one! It is easy to 'digest' God, all powerful is all by Himself and has created 'everything' and 'controls' everything, rather than 'everything' is automatic. There has to be 'some power' to keep everything in 'order' and 'systematic'.

My two cents.

PS. I am not as knowledgeable as you and Bro Anajmi .... :(

maethist
Posts: 152
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Re: Difining God

#17

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:54 pm

JC wrote:Bro Maethist,
PS. I am not as knowledgeable as you and Bro Anajmi .... :(
Now, you are being too modest. While it is impossible to equal the knowledge of His Eminence, Sheikh anajmi, I am sure you can teach me a thing or two. :)

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Difining God

#18

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:57 pm

What is surprising here is that first matheist "likes" anajmi's posts and then ridicules the same immediately afterwards. :o

maethist
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Re: Difining God

#19

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:04 pm

anajmi wrote:
Does powerful mean 'able to use energy'?
Sure. Infinitely powerful means 'no need to use energy'.
Does energy mean 'ability to do work' etc.
Sure. God has the ability to do any and all work without needing to spend any of his energy. Cause...... you guessed it. He is infinitely powerful.
Now, I have an issue with the use of the word 'infinitely powerful' to mean 'to be able to work without the expenditure of any energy'. God says that He can create anything by simply saying 'Be'. Did the creation 'hear' the command 'Be', I wonder.

Humans have to use energy to create anything. Use of energy is termed power by humans. It is confusing to use the same word to describe creation without energy the way God does. I suggest we use another word instead of power for this. May I suggest one? How about 'magic'?

maethist
Posts: 152
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Re: Difining God

#20

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:08 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:What is surprising here is that first matheist "likes" anajmi's posts and then ridicules the same immediately afterwards. :o
I like Honorable anajmi's posts because they convey such wisdom, such erudition. I am overcome emotionally when I read them and must respond to his brilliance!

Then, I recollect my emotions and get on being stupid for His Holiness, so as not to disappoint him. You have to feed his ego and keep him happy. No?

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:39 pm

God says that He can create anything by simply saying 'Be'. Did the creation 'hear' the command 'Be', I wonder.
No wonder even the simplest of things seem paradoxical to you. How can the creation hear the command 'Be' when it hasn't been created yet? It gets created after the command is issued right? Keep wondering.

By the way, does God have vocal cords to be able to say 'Be' such that it can be heard by whatever it is that is getting created? And does the creation have ears to hear it? So did the ears get created before the creation got created? Stupid questions are free of cost. I can ask a lot of stupid questions. The difference between us is that I know which question is stupid.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Difining God

#22

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:14 pm

anajmi wrote:
God says that He can create anything by simply saying 'Be'. Did the creation 'hear' the command 'Be', I wonder.
No wonder even the simplest of things seem paradoxical to you. How can the creation hear the command 'Be' when it hasn't been created yet? It gets created after the command is issued right? Keep wondering.

By the way, does God have vocal cords to be able to say 'Be' such that it can be heard by whatever it is that is getting created? And does the creation have ears to hear it? So did the ears get created before the creation got created? Stupid questions are free of cost. I can ask a lot of stupid questions. The difference between us is that I know which question is stupid.
Another excellent post from His Incomparable Majesty Sheikh anajmi (SAW etc.).

I did wonder, if the created cannot hear God's command why does God have to even utter it? Quran tells us that God says "kun fa yakun" to 'future' creation. That is for us mortals. God is not time-bound. I learned it from one of your disciples, O Great One.

Don't you think God has infinite ears so he can listen to all the Muslims' prayers. And if he is infinite in every possible way, he must also have infinite vocal chords, although he would have had to turn the volume down not to overwhelm Moses when He talked to him.

Sorry to ask more stupid questions. I approach in all humility to imbibe from your unmatchable erudition, O great one.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:28 pm

Since you have a lot of stupid questions I would suggest you hit the link Biradar suggested. Only Ismaili metaphysics can answer all your stupid questions.
make a trip to the library and spend a few days or months learning some more. It is well worth the effort.
By the way, guess what gets created when God says - 'Be Stupid'? :wink:

KA786110
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:20 am

Re: Defining God

#24

Unread post by KA786110 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:57 pm

Amazingly funny discourse. The guy who has been around this forum since 1/10/2001 5:01am is still stuck at that time. Has not learned anything. That's what happens when you come with a container full of ....., you cannot add anything new to it.

Matheist kudos to you for disguising your sarcasms (sic) so plainly for our resident obfuscation expert.

If someone claims to understand God than they do not. As they say 'The one who tells does not know, the one who knows does not tell'.

MUSTAPH
Posts: 131
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Re: Difining God

#25

Unread post by MUSTAPH » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:19 am

Hey you all have given lots of definition of God and great to know the wonderful ideas coming out from everyone. But if we had to make it simpler in a common man language can we not put it as :

God is a metaphorical name to entrust your faith on to and to develop that unknown fear. It makes logical sense to believe God was a name used to fear the wrong doing in days when there was no law. God is also a name used to express relief from the fear of failure or loss. I would say God is what was the best concept developed by all religious scriptures for human interest and today humans are so much blindfolded in doing anything for God interest.

Why do we make the concept of God so hi fi and sentimental which needs yo be explained by the ancient statements. Can it be not simple for a normal person to understand. I mean it's just a feeling like love, anger, hatred, happiness etc.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:04 am

God is simple to understand. But there are reasons why people find Him so difficult to understand and define. Consider this hypothetical conversation between maethist and his dad. This will make it clear.

maethist's dad - Son, I need you to clean the garage today.
maethist - me no understand lysani dawat dad.
maethist's dad - I am talking in English you moron.
maethist - Dad, I am unable to understand you. Is it because understanding you would mean defining you and defining you would mean limiting you?
maethist's dad - You just don't want to clean the garage, right you little prick?
maethist - Dad, I am trying to figure out if you are assuming that I can hear you when you say something in a language I don't understand even if it is with high volume.
maethist's dad - So now you do not understand the language I speak in you ungrateful sloth. Did I not raise you, give you education?
maethist - Dad, you will have to first define what you mean by "raise". Did you raise me to the second floor or did you raise me from the floor to the bed? And then you will have to define education.
maethist's dad - I am your father. I gave birth to you.
maethist - Well, technically, it was Mom that gave birth to me. But if you are saying that you gave birth to me, then kindly define "birth" first.
maethist's dad - Go to hell.

JC
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Re: Difining God

#27

Unread post by JC » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:19 pm

Any logical mind will conclude that there is some 'God', this is the only inference we can make, else we will not be able to and understand so many things around and above us. The only question is 'how much' God is involved in 'day-to-day running' of this galaxy is another matter (for discussion).

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Difining God

#28

Unread post by maethist » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:17 pm

....But over centuries of research we have learned that the idea “God did it” has never advanced our understanding of nature an iota, and that is why we abandoned it.

In the early 1800s, the French mathematician Laplace presented Napoleon with a copy of his great five-volume work on the solar system, the "Mechanique Celeste".

Aware that the books contained no mention of God, Napoleon taunted him, “Monsieur Laplace, they tell me you have written this large book on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator.”

Laplace answered, famously and brusquely: “Je n’avais pas besoin de cette hypothese-la,” (I have had no need of that hypothesis.)

And scientists have not needed it since.

Biradar
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Re: Difining God

#29

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:26 pm

JC wrote:Any logical mind will conclude that there is some 'God', this is the only inference we can make, else we will not be able to and understand so many things around and above us. The only question is 'how much' God is involved in 'day-to-day running' of this galaxy is another matter (for discussion).
So, please walk us through your "logic" which makes you infer that there is a god? Actually, it is very likely that the god which you conceive of does not actually exist. Probably good for you in particular, or else you would burn and roast in hell for eternity.

In any case, this question of if god exists has been debated for thousands of years. The likely situation is that the universe just is. We will not settle it here, I am sure. Best to leave this to an individual's conscience.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#30

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:57 pm

The likely situation is that the universe just is.
I thought you believed in the existence of God. Didn't you? Or are you on the fence?

By the way, God's existence is very logical. Look around you. Look at the creation. How did it all come into being? There has to be a creator. There is absolutely no way everything comes into existence by itself without the hand of God.

Of course, now the atheist will ask if the hand of God has more fingers than the human hand or not. :wink: