Difining God

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
Biradar
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Re: Difining God

#31

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:25 pm

anajmi wrote:
The likely situation is that the universe just is.
I thought you believed in the existence of God. Didn't you? Or are you on the fence?

By the way, God's existence is very logical. Look around you. Look at the creation. How did it all come into being? There has to be a creator. There is absolutely no way everything comes into existence by itself without the hand of God.

Of course, now the atheist will ask if the hand of God has more fingers than the human hand or not. :wink:
Even if there is a god, it does not mean that he created this particular universe himself, personally.

In any case, I don't expect you to give any more than this "look around you" reason to believe in god. May convince fifth-graders like JC. If you want to trace the chain of causality, one should ask the question: who then created god? If you answer, "god just is", then why is that any better than "the universe just is"?

Incidentally, the universe does not need anything or any being to "make" it: the total energy content of the universe is exactly zero.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:57 pm

Even if there is a god, it does not mean that he created this particular universe himself, personally.
Well, if you believe in the God of the Quran, then yes he created this particular universe himself cause he says so in the book. And if you deny the book, then I will have to go back and call you a kafir which I originally did. I knew you chickened out the last time around. C'mon man, have conviction in your beliefs.

Nothing new in your arguments, but here is something really really simple. If the universe just is, can you show a perfect cube just coming into being? What about a circle? No. Infact, if you were to find a perfect cube or a perfectly circular object on a distant planet, your scientists will guarantee the existence of life on that planet, cause they know a cube or a circle cannot just be. Think about it. If something as simple as a cube or a circle cannot be, how can everything else just be?

Now, if you still want to ask the age old question, who created God, then the answer is - I have no clue. I don't know who created God, but I do know he created everything else!!

Biradar
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Re: Difining God

#33

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:03 pm

A perfect cube? A perfect circle? Do you think Allah made them? Is this the reason you believe in god? A machine can make a very nice cube. So is the machine Allah? Shirk, Shirk, Shirk!

If you say "I have no clue" to who created god, why is that answer unacceptable for the universe?

As for me. I said I believed in god. My understanding of god, the Quran is very different that yours. You think too literally and very simple fifth-grade level arguments suffice for you. They don't sound very convincing to me.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#34

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:22 pm

A perfect cube? A perfect circle? Do you think Allah made them? Is this the reason you believe in god? A machine can make a very nice cube. So is the machine Allah? Shirk, Shirk, Shirk!
And then you tell me that I think too literally. By the way, I am not sure if you missed the point completely, or if you just got the wind knocked out of you. I assume the later. By they way, I considered you to be smarter than maethist. Do not prove me wrong.

The point I was trying to make is simple. A cube or a circle requires creation. It cannot just be. Living things are infinitely more complex. They cannot just be. Get it?
My understanding of god, the Quran is very different that yours.
Yes, I know. Your understanding of God is completely un-understandable as per the link that you posted. Such understanding is for people who need wiggle room. Read the hypothetical discussion that I posted between maethist and his dad. It applies for people whose understanding of God is like yours. If I were to tell you that God requires you to pray 5 times a day, your metaphysical understanding of God now comes into the picture to dismiss that requirement. You will now ask people to define 5 and define day!!

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#35

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:27 pm

If you say "I have no clue" to who created god, why is that answer unacceptable for the universe?
Because God chose to send us messengers to let us know that he created the universe. Simple. The universe didn't send any messenger telling us that it just is. Or did it? May be it did to you in the form of Ismaili Metaphysics?

MUSTAPH
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Re: Difining God

#36

Unread post by MUSTAPH » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:50 pm

Anjami

There was a time when people believed Sun revolves around the earth, today we have answers to contradict it so we are able to prove that statement wrong but does it mean it was true at that time.
Similarly, if you do not have the source of all this existence today do you say it should be believed that God was the creator of all this. To make this believed one will need to believe there is God and one will believe in God because he does not have reply to the creation of this world. What a cycle, it's like who came first the egg or the hen.

Anyways, what do you mean by God, is there someone up there. If you are making your self believe this than please close your eyes for few moments, take deep breath and try to give details like the look of this someone, the dress code, the accessories in his hand, etc.

Will await your reply.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#37

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:01 am

There are two ways to understand God. The simple way and the Ismaili Metaphysical way.

For the simpler understanding of God, you need to have only passed 5th grade. I assume that you have passed 5th grade, so this shouldn't be too difficult for you.

However, if you want to understand the Ismaili Metaphysical understanding of God, then you will have to go into the darkest section of the darkest forest with nothing but a bow and arrow and spend 7 years, 7 months, 7 weeks, 7 days and 7 hours hopping around on 1 foot. If you find the hidden Imam, you will get the Ismaili Metaphysical understanding of God from him. If not, come back on this forum and some one with the understanding of the Ismaili Metaphysical god will be able to help you.

So, which one would you prefer?

maethist
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Re: Difining God

#38

Unread post by maethist » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:20 pm

Your excellency, the right honorable Sheikh anajmi (TUS),

I fall down at your feet. I have been wondering if I can imbibe more crumbs of your infinite knowledge about God.

May I start with some very simple questions. Would you kindly tell me what these words mean?

Belief, Faith and Understanding.

It would help if you can simply define them for me. Dictionaries are no help. They confuse me even more. Thank you.

Your ever humble servant.

Biradar
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Re: Difining God

#39

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:03 pm

So, friend anajmi is claiming that we should pick the quickest to understand explanation of god and religion and stick to it. Otherwise we will have to spend years in study and contemplation. An argument from ignorance. In fact, it is very presumptuous of him to think that Allah is so simple that one can understand Him in a few sentences or easy syllogisms. Seems very unrealistic, but of course, appealing to those who do not want to enact the labor to think and study. A way out for the lazy.

Incidentally, I should admit that even the Ismaili "proofs" for existence of god are very weak and along the lines of naive creationism. However, these Ismaili authors wrote at a time when god was needed as an explanation for creation and other things which we could not understand and explain. This creationist position has become less tenable today, and one needs to rethink the fundamental assumptions from 1000 years ago in light of modern science and philosophy.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#40

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:47 pm

So, friend anajmi is claiming that we should pick the quickest to understand explanation of god and religion and stick to it. Otherwise we will have to spend years in study and contemplation. An argument from ignorance. In fact, it is very presumptuous of him to think that Allah is so simple that one can understand Him in a few sentences or easy syllogisms. Seems very unrealistic, but of course, appealing to those who do not want to enact the labor to think and study. A way out for the lazy.
Assuming bro biradar didn't take the lazy way out to understand God, and spent years in study and contemplation, what was the result of his study?
Incidentally, I should admit that even the Ismaili "proofs" for existence of god are very weak and along the lines of naive creationism. However, these Ismaili authors wrote at a time when god was needed as an explanation for creation and other things which we could not understand and explain. This creationist position has become less tenable today, and one needs to rethink the fundamental assumptions from 1000 years ago in light of modern science and philosophy.
In short, the brother spent years in study and contemplation trying to understand Allah and concluded that there is no Allah. Time well spent, I guess?

Reminds me of this dialogue from the movie Jurassic Park. This happens when the group first sees the dinosaurs.

Jeff Goldblum : God creates dinosaurs, God destroys dinosaurs, God creates Man, Man destroys God, Man creates dinosaurs.
Laura Linney responds - Dinosaur eats Man, Woman inherits the earth.

Funny.

If God didn't create Man, then that means that Man created God. And Man created religion. Every prophet is a liar Ismaili Metaphysics is a bunch of hokey pokey bull and all the Imams and Dais are liars. Which means that they knew there is no God and yet chose to fool man. So what is science going to achieve in any case? Is it going to prove God doesn't exist? How? People who chose to become prophets, already knew he doesn't exist. They didn't need science. People believe in God, because it gives them hope. They think that at the end of the tunnel, there is payback and reward. If science proves that there isn't, do you think that is good or bad?

Two scenarios. Let us say that everything that has happened because of religion to mankind is bad. But since we are assuming for the sake of this discussion that there is no God, these problems are actually the creation of Man. Man created religion, Man created science. Hence all the problems are because of Man. If man sees that religion is advantageous to his own self, do you think science is going to stop him? No. He already knows God doesn't exist. He doesn't need science to tell him that. He just needs people who desire more than what they have. And that is about 99% of mankind. Religion makes that promise and science takes it away. So who is going to give a shit about science?

Second scenario. Let us say that everything good that has happened to mankind is because of religion. Then who will give a shit about what science proves? Either way, what science or scientists say, doesn't matter.

So, is there a God? Well, the simple answer is, there is if you believe in Him and there isn't if you don't.

KA786110
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Re: Defining God

#41

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:16 pm

Discussion has been cleverly taken away from its original question 'Defining God' That is the forte (or deliberate plan) of some forum members here.

How can you define something which is incomprehensible? God is Niranjan Nirakar. You cannot capture God in any definition. But you already know that.
S Let us say that everything good that has happened to mankind is because of religion.
False statement. Look at what is Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Taliban etc are doing in the name of Religion. All these groups in one form or another draw inspiration from Wahabism. Religion has not always brought goodness. Your form of religion is being used as a justification of destruction of innocent lives.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:37 pm

Not sure if you understand English. I suggest to take up a couple of courses and then go back and read my post again.

KA786110
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Re: Defining God

#43

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:55 pm

LOL. :roll:

So if someone does not agree with your incorrect assumption, they need to do that. However limited my English skills are, I do see some problems with your English in the above post. :P

I do understand what you are trying to do. You succeeded (kind of) in getting me to write a post unrelated to the topic.

Let me fix that:

To me the task of defining the God by us mere mortals is very aptly explained by Rumi in his story of several blind persons describing an Elephant.

Search and understanding of God is a very personal matter. Each person will have a unique perspective. But problem with today's fundamentalists (read: illiterates in true meaning of religious matters) is that they want you to conform to their interpretation. To them diversity is anathema.

maethist
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Re: Difining God

#44

Unread post by maethist » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:02 pm

Anyone who might expose anajmi as the liar that he is will essentially get the same treatment. A barrage of meaningless, verbose nothings. That is typical of people of faith. They know that they are lying when they say they know God or have faith in God etc. Any challenge will be met with obfuscation.

I asked him to define 3 simple terms which has a bearing on any discourse about God. He could not come up with the instant response he always produces. It is clearly beyond him.

For others, I will define the terms.

'Belief' is stating that some proposition is true based on evidence, which can be reviewed by your peers.

'Faith' is stating that some proposition is true based on no evidence or it is held to be true against evidence to the contrary.

'Understanding' is the knowledge of the process which a person uses to accept a belief or faith.

'You will get burnt if you put your hand in fire' is an example of belief. It can be readily demonstrated and evidence is there for anyone.

'Allah is the only God' is an example of faith. There is no evidence for it and cannot be demonstrated.

Attaining 'Belief' is generally self-taught. However schools/universities help people to bring discipline into the process.

Attaining 'Faith' is never self-taught. It is always a process of brain-washing, specially during childhood when intellect has not matured. It is more a process of social conditioning. That is why Muslims grow up to be Muslims, Hindus grow up to be Hindus and so on with other religions. Social conditioning introduces a hefty dose of emotional attachment to 'faith' that is very difficult to shake off. Thus people of faith resort to various strategies of 'rationalization' to defend their faith.

As an adult, faith is attained through indoctrination into a cult or through 'subjective experience'. Neither is based on any evidence that can be peer-reviewed.

That is, in brief, what belief, faith and understanding are.

So when people talk about having faith in God, they, in fact, do not know what they are talking about. They are pretending to know that 'they know what they are talking about'. It is a form of self-delusion.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:31 pm

And in America, every one has a right to be self delusional. :wink:

maethist
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Re: Difining God

#46

Unread post by maethist » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:42 pm

anajmi wrote:And in America, every one has a right to be self delusional. :wink:
True. You are a good example.

Looks like I am about to banned. So, you might want to elaborate on 'proof' of God, before I am gone.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#47

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:54 pm

You are getting banned? Why?

Admin, please do not ban this guy. People like him are needed over here to wake others up. People might see him as an example of how not to understand things, and they might finally be able to understand things. I would strongly recommend for him to be allowed to post. And of course continue deleting the senseless stuff that he posts. That might mean deleting every single post of his. Ah well!!

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#48

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:27 pm

Here is something I just thought of.

If we are to assume that God does not exist and that religion is man-made, do you know who is responsible for religion then? The atheist.

If God doesn't exist, then the first person who created religion and told us about God is a liar. He never got contacted by God and knew he didn't exist. Hence, we can safely conclude that he was an atheist. What a paradox eh?

KA786110
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Re: Defining God

#49

Unread post by KA786110 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:59 am

Here is something from another web post:
We believe things with our minds. Beliefs are ideas. They are concepts. They give us a picture of reality that others can agree with or disagree with. Beliefs are thoughts that can be put into words and these words can be communicated to others. Beliefs, however, are not absolute truths. They are opinions about reality, not reality itself. In the realm of belief we can have our own opinions, others can have their opinions, and we can agree or disagree, remembering that the truth of our beliefs is relative.

Having faith in something is different than this. Faith, in a spiritual sense, does not have to do with relative truths but with absolute truths - truths that exist for all time. Faith relates us to an unvarying, underlying reality that we share in - one that we assume exists whether we believe in it or not. Unlike beliefs which are of the mind, faith is not just of the mind but of the heart as well.

Here is an example of the difference between belief and faith: We think something with our mind about God. This is our concept of God. We think, for example, that God is the creator of the Universe and that God must have had a reason for wanting to create the Universe, that is, that it was an intentional act. We can think that the reason for this act is unknown, or we can think that the reason for this act was the wish to extend love. Whichever we think, we are still in the realm of concepts. We are still in the realm of opinions.

Faith comes into play when we tell ourselves that our concepts are true - when we hold them to be true even though we don't have any proof that they are true. Then we have crossed the line. Faith is not concerned with proof. This is because faith is of the heart as well as the mind. Faith occurs not just because we think something is true, but because we want it to be true and our minds tell us that it may be true. Faith combines our heart's wish and our mind's belief into an inner affirmation that the possible is real. Faith is the affirmation of this reality.

When we have faith, we believe in the invisible. In doing this, our mind faces a clear choice between doubt and trust. Faith makes the choice to trust based on the joining of mind and heart. It makes the choice to suspend doubt and cynicism and to say "yes" to the thinking of the heart rather than to rational thinking. In place of rational thinking faith says: "I can believe in what I do not see, for it is not physical sight that gives reality to things but heart and intuition that gives reality to things." Faith is based on the willingness of the mind to side with the reality of the heart which holds that what is subjective can be equally real to what is objective, even though it may not be proveable in a physical sense. Love is like this, a subjective fact whose existence cannot be proven but whose reality is nevertheless very real.

Those who take exception to faith as a way of perceiving reality, often do so on the basis of scientific rationality. One of the most common arguments against faith is this: if you cannot see it, touch it, or feel it with your senses, you cannot know it exists. Further, if no one else but you can perceive it, then there is even less chance that it exists.

This is a very common argument against faith - one which requires proof in order to believe something. This argument is valid, but only within the realm in which proof operates, the realm of science, not the realm of life. It is valid within this realm because scientific thinking defines a methodology which is based on proof as a way of dealing with externally verifiable facts. But a methodology is not a cosmology - it is not a way of understanding life and how existence came to be. For this, something else is needed. Science as a methodology is only capable of understanding what is within its domain - the domain of the physical. This is important to understand. Science is not reality but a tool with which to explore a portion of reality. There are many other portions to which it does not apply.
Link: http://lightomega.org/Ind/Pure/Belief_F ... owing.html
Last edited by KA786110 on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:01 am

There are dozens of interpretations of belief, faith and understanding posted on the web. What the atheist posted is not common. It was his own personal understanding which will be forgotten in a few days just like he will be.

KA786110
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Re: Defining God

#51

Unread post by KA786110 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:13 am

That is the problem with people of your persuasion. Instead of paying attention to what is being said, you look at who is saying it. By the way the same fate awaits for you and me as well. Our posts will be forgotten even before that article. The author of the article does not appear to be an atheist. Would an atheist discuss about soul and being one with the One?

anajmi
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Re: Difining God

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:24 pm

Actually, when I referred to "the atheist", I was talking about maethist and his definitions. Sorry, but I didn't read the article link that you posted.