Are you shia or sunni or wahhabi?

[Critical_Thinker]

First of all, in case there is confusion, the udaipuris are firmly and devotedly shia, and have no association with the wahhabi movement at all.
This can be difficult to see on the forum due to the majority of members here being non-progressives, so needs to be clarified.

I have read posts where the notion of being 'only muslim' is being promoted and somehow confused or negated by being a shia/sunni/wahhabi.
The truth is that there is no such thing as "only muslims'.
What we do have is three distinct religious theologies between shia muslims and sunni muslims and wahhabi muslims.
Saying you are 'only muslim' would be like saying there is no such thing as males and females as there are 'only humans'.
Clearly this is simplistic and very foolish so needs to be addressed.

The divisions can be determined very easily from just a couple of simple questions:

1. Who was ali?
a. The first successor to the prophet
b. The fourth successor to the prophet

If your answer is a. then you are a shia.
If your answer is b. then you are a sunni.

If you are sunni, then one more question is required to ascertain if you are a wahhabi or not.

2. What are shias?
a. Fellow muslims from a different school of thought in islam
b. Kafirs who must be abused and their beliefs insulted

If your answer is a. then you are a sunni.
If your answer is b. then you are a wahhabi.

Hopefully this will clear things up and help to identify which members do genuinely support the progressive bohras, and who in reality, are utterly against the progressive bohras.

[canadian]

I have a friend from West Indies and I asked him Ms. Critical_Thinker’s two questions:

1 Who was Ali?
His answer: He was Rasul-allah’s cousin.
2 Who are shias?
His answer: No idea.
When I tried to explain, his comments were: Rasul-allah was a Muslim and I am a Muslim; he was not a caliph- he was a rasul, a messenger of Allah. People who came after him may have been caliphs but they were caliphs of particular country or countries (where people of other religions also lived) and not of the Muslim religion or ummah because Islam spread to other parts of the world where there were other kings or caliphs. All I know is I am a Muslim and I say ‘La Ilaha illal la, Mohammmedun rasul-allah’ and I know five basic principles of Islam: Namaaz, Rozaa, Zakaat, Jihad and Hajj. By Jihad I mean I always try to tell the truth, do not steal, do not hurt others, I try to help/defend the weak, in short I try to be a good human being. For me, Islam or any other religion tells me to be a decent human being.

[Critical_Thinker]

I have a friend from West Indies and I asked him Ms. Critical_Thinker’s two questions:

1 Who was Ali?
His answer: He was Rasul-allah’s cousin.
2 Who are shias?
His answer: No idea.
When I tried to explain, his comments were: Rasul-allah was a Muslim and I am a Muslim; he was not a caliph- he was a rasul, a messenger of Allah. People who came after him may have been caliphs but they were caliphs of particular country or countries (where people of other religions also lived) and not of the Muslim religion or ummah because Islam spread to other parts of the world where there were other kings or caliphs. All I know is I am a Muslim and I say ‘La Ilaha illal la, Mohammmedun rasul-allah’ and I know five basic principles of Islam: Namaaz, Rozaa, Zakaat, Jihad and Hajj. By Jihad I mean I always try to tell the truth, do not steal, do not hurt others, I try to help/defend the weak, in short I try to be a good human being. For me, Islam or any other religion tells me to be a decent human being.

1. If he doesnt know or care about what happened after the prophet passed away then he cannot be a member of any of the 4 sunni madhabs nor can he be a shia.

2. If he doesnt know about shias then he must be lying or very ignorant. Even non-muslims today know about shias/sunnis since 911 and thanks to what is happening in the middle east.

Your 'friend' might be a recent 'convert' who is still learning the basics of islam?
Ask him which mosque he goes to and which scriptures he follows and how he learnt to pray namaaz etc.
If he only knows of the quran then he must be one of these new-age 'quranists' who believe exactly what you typed above.

They say there are almost 2 billion muslims in the world now.
How many of them do you think are like your 'friend' and dont know whether they are shia or sunni?

I wonder if you could answer my 2 questions without referring to a 'friend'?

[SBM]

1. If he doesnt know or care about what happened after the prophet passed away then he cannot be a member of any of the 4 sunni madhabs nor can he be a shia.

All the Prophets including Prophet Mohammed were not member of any of the school you describe So according to your theory they were NOT MUSLIMS because as per your logic there is no such thing as MUSLIM unless you belong to one of the five Madhab.

[fayyaaz]

Ask a Muslim who his parents are. They were either Muslims or not Muslims.

If they are Muslims, they will be able to tell him which madhhab they follow. It will be Sunni, Shia, Wahhabi/Salafi or others like Ahmadiyya or Aga Khani.

If he says that his parents are non-Muslim and that he is a convert, Ask him to find more about where he learned to be a Muslim. He may have read about it but that does not count. Ask him where he took his Shahadat. That will tell you about his association.

And you can ignore silly comments by the intellectually challenged SBM who simply has to show his stupidity by deliberately ignoring the conditions of today's Muslims all of whom, except converts, are born into a sect.

And this guy canadian is also in the same category as SBM. Both are in absolute awe of the ex-Bohras anajmi and AZ.

[zinger]

1. If he doesnt know or care about what happened after the prophet passed away then he cannot be a member of any of the 4 sunni madhabs nor can he be a shia.

All the Prophets including Prophet Mohammed were not member of any of the school you describe So according to your theory they were NOT MUSLIMS because as per your logic there is no such thing as MUSLIM unless you belong to one of the five Madhab.

Your arguments are becoming ever more illogical. i shall point out another one you made yesterday too.

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim. After Christ came the baptists, methodists, protestants, greek orthodox, russian orthodox, born-agains etc just as after the Prophet came Sunni, Shia, Ahmediyas, Wahabis etc

Really bro, get a grip on yourself. these days it seems that you are so bent on making a point, you forget to make any sense.

please read the statment clearly again "If he doesnt know or care about what happened after the prophet passed away then he cannot be a member of any of the 4 sunni madhabs nor can he be a shia" and your argument to that was basically stupid and senseless

[SBM]

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim.

That shows your ignorance about Islam. Islam came into existence right when Allaha created Adam and Prophet Mohammed completed Islam
According to Islam Issa AS (Jesus Christ) was teaching the message of Allaha so was Musa AS (Moses) and that message was of Islam but it is the followers of these two great Prophets who went astray (like the follower of SMS are doing with Dawat) so please go and read and just because you have problem with my postings just do not post any nonsense without properly reading and analyzing it.

From Wikipedia
The history of Islam concerns the religion of Islam and its adherents, Muslims. "Muslim" is an Arabic word meaning "one who submits to God". Muslims and their religion have greatly impacted the political, economic, and military history of the Old World, especially the Middle East, where its roots lie. Though it is believed by non-Muslims to have originated in Mecca and Medina, Muslims believe that the religion of Islam has been present since the time of the prophet Adam. Muslims believe that prophets Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, among others, were all Islamic prophets and they have equal veneration in the Qur'an.

[anajmi]

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim.

No he wasnt.

who was ali. Was he a shia muslim, a sunni muslim or just a muslim?

[fayyaaz]

anajmi and his a*$*-licker, SBM deflecting the subject.

We are talking about Modern Day Muslims and what sectarian affiliations they have.

Morons of a feather, both of them!

[abde53]

anajmi and his a*$*-licker, SBM deflecting the subject.

We are talking about Modern Muslims and what sectarian affiliations they have.

Morons of a feather, both of them!

Fayyaz Bhai
why do you have to butt in every time and call SBM names, He answered a to Zinger Bhai who said Jesus was first christian and you have a nagging habit to just come in and push you nonsensical words, Just chill brother......

[anajmi]

AlRafeu

So you have chosen not to do what Ali did?

[fayyaaz]

anajmi and his a*$*-licker, SBM deflecting the subject.

We are talking about Modern Muslims and what sectarian affiliations they have.

Morons of a feather, both of them!

Fayyaz Bhai
why do you have to butt in every time and call SBM names, He answered a to Zinger Bhai who said Jesus was first christian and you have a nagging habit to just come in and push you nonsensical words, Just chill brother......

Zinger only responded to SBM who first deflected the subject. See his first post on the subject reproduced below.

Talk was about Modern Day Muslims. Everybody knows Muhammad was the first historical Muslim and all sects and madhhabs came long after Muhammad had passed away. I am not concerned about the Muslim Quranic legend that all Prophets were Muslims.

see!

1. If he doesnt know or care about what happened after the prophet passed away then he cannot be a member of any of the 4 sunni madhabs nor can he be a shia.

All the Prophets including Prophet Mohammed were not member of any of the school you describe So according to your theory they were NOT MUSLIMS because as per your logic there is no such thing as MUSLIM unless you belong to one of the five Madhab.

[abde53]

^
Fayyaz Bhai
But he corrected Zinger Bhai about Jesus being the first Christin Prophet and what is wrong with that? Seems like you just wanted to butt in and find a reason to call SBM bhai a Wahaabi Anjami Kisser--shows your hate against SBM and Anjami Bhai -----

[Critical_Thinker]

1. If he doesnt know or care about what happened after the prophet passed away then he cannot be a member of any of the 4 sunni madhabs nor can he be a shia.

All the Prophets including Prophet Mohammed were not member of any of the school you describe So according to your theory they were NOT MUSLIMS because as per your logic there is no such thing as MUSLIM unless you belong to one of the five Madhab.

The famous story about allama hilli will alleviate your ignorant confusion:

Allama hilli was once called to see the sunni sultan at his palace.
Unlike the other scholars he carried his shoes under his arm when he entered the court.
The sultan asked him why he did not leave his shoes outside like everyone else.

He replied that during the time of the prophet, the hanafis used to steal the prophets shoes.
The hanafi cleric protested at this insulting accusation and told the sultan that this could never have happened as the hanafis did not exist until over a hundred years after the prophet had died.

Allama hilli apologised for his mistake, as it was actually the malikis who stole the prophets shoes.
The maliki cleric protested and said it could not have been them as the malikis did not exist until over a hundred years after the prophet had died.

Allama hilli apologised again for his mistake, as it was actually the hanbalis who stole the prophets shoes.
The hanbali cleric protested and said it could not have been them as the hanbalis did not exist until over a hundred years after the prophet had died.

Allama hilli apologised yet again for his mistake, as it was actually the shaafis who stole the prophets shoes.
The shaafi cleric protested and said it could not have been them as the shaafis did not exist until over a hundred years after the prophet had died.

Allama hilli then said to the sultan, if none of these schools of thought existed during the time of the prophet, then which school of thought did exist?
Allama hilli said this while pointing to himself. (In case you dont know, allama hilli was shia.)
He then went on to say that these other scholars follow men who never even met the prophet, whereas the shia follow those who were raised in the house of the prophet. (In case you dont know, that would be ali, fatima, hassan and hussain.)
Needless to say, the sultan became a shia.

If you wish to debate this issue SBM, first answer the two questions:
1. Who was ali?
2. What are shias?

[fayyaaz]

^
Fayyaz Bhai
But he corrected Zinger Bhai about Jesus being the first Christin Prophet and what is wrong with that? Seems like you just wanted to butt in and find a reason to call SBM bhai a Wahaabi Anjami Kisser--shows your hate against SBM and Anjami Bhai -----

Listen. Are you SBM's keeper? I already said that SBM started the quarrel. His post preceded Zinger's.

Actually, I do not personally hate anajmi, SBM or any other participant on this forum. This is just the way 'give and take' appears on forums like this.

[abde53]

Here you go again Fayyaz Bhai
Was SBM bhai wrong in correcting Zinger Bhai about Jesus being the first Christian, he even gave the refrecne from wikipedia and now i am sbm keeper.
now let me ask you same thing who made you the authority to butt in every one's posting. it was between sbm and zinger bhai and you had to put your nose into it.
I do not post but I see you even call humanbeing bhai names too

[SBM]

Sister Critical Thinker
Salaam
I do not want to go into Shia-Sunni debate and who is wrong or right. Muslim Ummah is already being beaten down without outside help and No thank you
I have no desire to corner myself in any one particular school of thoughts. I like to get the best and positive from each school of thought and try to practice Islam to the best of my abilities and understanding. I am fortunate that the community I live in USA are very understanding and we do not have a division between Shia and Sunni over here. Despite the fact that many outsiders tried to divide us, our local Muslim community stayed united. By having mutual respect
Jafferia community instructed their Waizeen not to do laanats or abuse to the first 3 khalifas while Sunni Ulema decided not to bring the discussion of Yazid and Muwaya in their Khutbas since Shia attend Friday Khutbas at Sunni Masjid and Sunni attend Friday Khutbas at Jafferia Masjid due to the locations.
So yes keep me out of this. I rather COEXIST with all rather then get into trivial Shia-Sunni-Wahaabi-SMS-SKQ and list goes on debate...

[anajmi]

The story about allam hill is actually a plagiarized version of a different story where the shia were stealing the shoes during the time of the prophet.

Let me ask again was ali a shia, a sunni, or just a muslim?

[Critical_Thinker]

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim.

That shows your ignorance about Islam. Islam came into existence right when Allaha created Adam and Prophet Mohammed completed Islam
According to Islam Issa AS (Jesus Christ) was teaching the message of Allaha so was Musa AS (Moses) and that message was of Islam but it is the followers of these two great Prophets who went astray (like the follower of SMS are doing with Dawat) so please go and read and just because you have problem with my postings just do not post any nonsense without properly reading and analyzing it.

According to islam, yes.
But according to christianity and judaism, this is not what they believe is it SBM.
Therefore try to use more intelligence and make your point using the correct context.

Zinger bhai is correct in relation to the topic of this thread which is about sects/communities.
The christian 'community' began with christ, just as the muslim 'community' began with rasulallah.

For example, the muslim 'community' follows the quran.
How can a christian/jew be part of the muslim 'community' if they dont believe in the quran?
Indeed, what if they were living during all those centuries before the quran was revealed?

Furthermore, reference the shahada: There is no god but allah and muhammad is the messenger of allah.
How can a christian/jew be a member of the muslim 'community' if they dont believe in prophet muhammad?

Therefore christians and jews are muslims according to islam (although wahhabis demonstrate otherwise) but are very much separate communities.
Having different communities in the world is clearly what allah wanted:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

(In case you dont know, the above is an ayat of the quran.)

The monotheist religions all follow one god, yet allah has deliberately made us into different communities/nations/tribes, and specifically wants us to acknowledge each other.

If you want to debate about religion SBM, I would suggest you first go and learn something about it.

[Critical_Thinker]

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim.

No he wasnt.

who was ali. Was he a shia muslim, a sunni muslim or just a muslim?

As explained above, according to the christian community, yes he was.

In your opinion anajmi, do you think ali believed he was the 1st (like harun to musa) or the 4th?

I wonder why you didnt respond to the second question: what are shias?
Is it because everybody already knows the answer you would give?

[SBM]

I

f you want to debate about religion SBM, I would suggest you first go and learn something about it.

Thank you for your suggestion and next time you suggest please be humble, If you had paid attention to my last post I clearly said I DONOT GET INVOLVED IN RELIGIOUS DEBATE BUT I SUPPOSE THAT IT SKIPPED YOUR NARROW SPAN so next time before your respond please read the post completely

[anajmi]

Jesus christ was not the first christian even according to christianity. Christianity was invented by st Paul. You might want to do the research. The concept of trinity which is a key portion of the christian faith is not even in the bible. That is how christianity is similar to shiaism.

[Critical_Thinker]

Sister Critical Thinker
Salaam
I do not want to go into Shia-Sunni debate and who is wrong or right. Muslim Ummah is already being beaten down without outside help and No thank you
I have no desire to corner myself in any one particular school of thoughts. I like to get the best and positive from each school of thought and try to practice Islam to the best of my abilities and understanding. I am fortunate that the community I live in USA are very understanding and we do not have a division between Shia and Sunni over here. Despite the fact that many outsiders tried to divide us, our local Muslim community stayed united. By having mutual respect
Jafferia community instructed their Waizeen not to do laanats or abuse to the first 3 khalifas while Sunni Ulema decided not to bring the discussion of Yazid and Muwaya in their Khutbas since Shia attend Friday Khutbas at Sunni Masjid and Sunni attend Friday Khutbas at Jafferia Masjid due to the locations.
So yes keep me out of this. I rather COEXIST with all rather then get into trivial Shia-Sunni-Wahaabi-SMS-SKQ and list goes on debate...

If you dont want a shia/sunni debate then why did you post in this thread to argue against me?

The muslim ummah is being beaten down primarily by the wahhabis.
Are you one of them? Is that why you refuse to answer the 2 questions?

Most muslims in the usa and all over the world have mutual respect for each other.
If you believe in mutual respect then why do you support people on this forum who show no respect to shias and bohras?

You think the shia/sunni/wahhabi divide is 'trivial'?
Do you think imam hussain would agree with you on that?
Do you think the suffering of shias across the globe is 'trivial' too?
Do you think the way wahhabis are destroying islam is also 'trivial'?

You think the SMS/SKQ debate is 'trivial' yet you cannot stop talking about it can you.

If you truly want to COEXIST, then why do you constantly attack people here?
The true progressives happily coexist with the traditionals and the sunnis and christians, jews, hindus etc.
Why do you always abuse the traditional bohras?
Why do you always insult shia beliefs?

[Critical_Thinker]

I

f you want to debate about religion SBM, I would suggest you first go and learn something about it.

Thank you for your suggestion and next time you suggest please be humble, If you had paid attention to my last post I clearly said I DONOT GET INVOLVED IN RELIGIOUS DEBATE BUT I SUPPOSE THAT IT SKIPPED YOUR NARROW SPAN so next time before your respond please read the post completely

I shall reply to whichever posts I want. You can humbly do the same.

[Critical_Thinker]

Jesus christ was not the first christian even according to christianity. Christianity was invented by st Paul. You might want to do the research. The concept of trinity which is a key portion of the christian faith is not even in the bible. That is how christianity is similar to shiaism.

The christian community did not exist until christ, therefore he was the first christian.

Out of curiosity anajmi, are you a born wahhabi or a convert?

[anajmi]

Just because you insist on something doesnt make it true. Jesus Christ was born a jew. The Quran then clarifies that he was born a muslim. The title of christ was given to him much later. The christian community was created by st Paul and not jesus christ. Again, please do some research.

[abde53]

The first Christians, as described in the first chapters of the Acts of the Apostles, were all Jewish, either by birth, or conversion for which the biblical term proselyte is used,[1] and referred to by historians as the Jewish Christians. The early Gospel message was spread orally; probably in Aramaic.[2] The New Testament's Book of Acts and Epistle to the Galatians record that the first Christian community was centered in Jerusalem and its leaders included Peter, James, and John.[3] Paul of Tarsus, after his conversion to Christianity, claimed the title of "Apostle to the Gentiles". Paul's influence on Christian thinking is said to be more significant than any other New Testament writer.[4] By the end of the 1st century, Christianity began to be recognized internally and externally as a separate religion from Second Temple Judaism which itself was refined and developed further in the centuries after the destruction of the Second Jerusalem Temple. As shown by the numerous quotations in the New Testament books and other Christian writings of the 1st centuries, early Christians generally used and revered the Jewish Bible as Scripture, mostly in the Greek (Septuagint) or Aramaic (Targum) translations, much of which is written in narrative form where "in the biblical story God is the protagonist, Satan (or evil people/powers) are the antagonists, and God's people are the agonists".[5][6]

[anajmi]

Out of curiosity anajmi, are you a born wahhabi or a convert?

Please give me your definition of a wahhabi.

[abde53]

Question to CT Bhen or Anjami Bhai
Who will be the first Dawoodi Bohra,? Imam or Dai or the the first person who took the first Misaq of Dawaat at the hands of Dai/Imam? Since I did not take any Sabak and the Aamil Saheb will not tell us may be some body who took Sabak can tell me. Thank you
because the first Christian will be the one who took Misaq at the hands of Jesus or Jesus who was anointed by God

[zinger]

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim.

That shows your ignorance about Islam. Islam came into existence right when Allaha created Adam and Prophet Mohammed completed Islam Damn,, i could have sworn i was talking about Muslims and not Islam
According to Islam Issa AS (Jesus Christ) was teaching the message of Allaha so was Musa AS (Moses) and that message was of Islam but it is the followers of these two great Prophets who went astray (like the follower of SMS are doing with Dawat) so please go and read and just because you have problem with my postings just do not post any nonsense without properly reading and analyzing it. same to you. you didnt bother to read my posts either

From Wikipedia
The history of Islam concerns the religion of Islam and its adherents, Muslims. "Muslim" is an Arabic word meaning "one who submits to God". Muslims and their religion have greatly impacted the political, economic, and military history of the Old World, especially the Middle East, where its roots lie. Though it is believed by non-Muslims to have originated in Mecca and Medina, Muslims believe that the religion of Islam has been present since the time of the prophet Adam. Muslims believe that prophets Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, among others, were all Islamic prophets and they have equal veneration in the Qur'an.