Are you shia or sunni or wahhabi?

[zinger]

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim.

That shows your ignorance about Islam. Islam came into existence right when Allaha created Adam and Prophet Mohammed completed Islam
According to Islam Issa AS (Jesus Christ) was teaching the message of Allaha so was Musa AS (Moses) and that message was of Islam but it is the followers of these two great Prophets who went astray (like the follower of SMS are doing with Dawat) so please go and read and just because you have problem with my postings just do not post any nonsense without properly reading and analyzing it.

From Wikipedia
The history of Islam concerns the religion of Islam and its adherents, Muslims. "Muslim" is an Arabic word meaning "one who submits to God". Muslims and their religion have greatly impacted the political, economic, and military history of the Old World, especially the Middle East, where its roots lie. Though it is believed by non-Muslims to have originated in Mecca and Medina, Muslims believe that the religion of Islam has been present since the time of the prophet Adam. Muslims believe that prophets Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, among others, were all Islamic prophets and they have equal veneration in the Qur'an.

BTW, my original post was to show how you took the argument from one end of the spectrum to the other. now atleast you came back on track, please stick to it now. i will not comment on your posts now as i have discussed in my PM to you and GM bhai

[zinger]

^
Fayyaz Bhai
But he corrected Zinger Bhai about Jesus being the first Christin Prophet and what is wrong with that? Seems like you just wanted to butt in and find a reason to call SBM bhai a Wahaabi Anjami Kisser--shows your hate against SBM and Anjami Bhai -----

Correct, Christ AS was the first Prophet of Christians just as Muhammad SAW was the first Prophet of Muslims. And this my good friend, is how the world sees it.

We as muslims believe that Islam started from the time of Adam, but the world does not.

[zinger]

Jesus Christ AS was the first Christian. Just as Prophet Muhammad SAW was the first Muslim.

No he wasnt.

who was ali. Was he a shia muslim, a sunni muslim or just a muslim?

Yes he was. read my post above.

And what a stupid question. Shia are followers of Maula Ali. Ali was neither Shia or Sunni. The people who came after are who created the divide. Stupid questions to derail topics seem to be your greatest strength

[zinger]

Jesus christ was not the first christian even according to christianity. Christianity was invented by st Paul. You might want to do the research. The concept of trinity which is a key portion of the christian faith is not even in the bible. That is how christianity is similar to shiaism.

are you really that stupid??? Do you seriously expect people to accept your nonsense???

"According to writings in the New Testament, Paul was known as Saul before his conversion, and was dedicated to the persecution of the early disciples of Jesus in the area of Jerusalem.[10] In the narrative of the book of Acts, while traveling on the road from Jerusalem to Damascus on a mission to "bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem", the resurrected Jesus appeared to him in a great light. He was struck blind, but after three days his sight was restored by Ananias of Damascus, and Paul began to preach that Jesus of Nazareth is the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

[zinger]

That shows your ignorance about Islam. Islam came into existence right when Allaha created Adam and Prophet Mohammed completed Islam
According to Islam Issa AS (Jesus Christ) was teaching the message of Allaha so was Musa AS (Moses) and that message was of Islam but it is the followers of these two great Prophets who went astray (like the follower of SMS are doing with Dawat) so please go and read and just because you have problem with my postings just do not post any nonsense without properly reading and analyzing it.

According to islam, yes.
But according to christianity and judaism, this is not what they believe is it SBM.
Therefore try to use more intelligence and make your point using the correct context.

Zinger bhai is correct in relation to the topic of this thread which is about sects/communities.
The christian 'community' began with christ, just as the muslim 'community' began with rasulallah.

For example, the muslim 'community' follows the quran.
How can a christian/jew be part of the muslim 'community' if they dont believe in the quran?
Indeed, what if they were living during all those centuries before the quran was revealed?

Furthermore, reference the shahada: There is no god but allah and muhammad is the messenger of allah.
How can a christian/jew be a member of the muslim 'community' if they dont believe in prophet muhammad?

Therefore christians and jews are muslims according to islam (although wahhabis demonstrate otherwise) but are very much separate communities.
Having different communities in the world is clearly what allah wanted:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

(In case you dont know, the above is an ayat of the quran.)

The monotheist religions all follow one god, yet allah has deliberately made us into different communities/nations/tribes, and specifically wants us to acknowledge each other.

If you want to debate about religion SBM, I would suggest you first go and learn something about it.

strangely enough, i did not even read this post. i immediately starting punching keys.

but yes, you said exactly what i wanted but much more elaborately

[anajmi]

Thank you zinger for pointing out from wikipedia that jesus christ was not the first christian but a jewish messiah.

Thank you for also contradicting yourself in your posts where you first say that he was the first christian prophet and then say that he was the son of god. If you keep posting more and more fantasy you will end up posting a little bit of reality.

[anajmi]

Where did you run to dear critical thinker? You were so enthused while asking questions but not so much when asked some eh?

The christian 'community' began with christ, just as the muslim 'community' began with rasulallah.

Please refer to the links posted by zinger bhai. It will clarify your misconception about Christianity according to christians.

A christian is one who follows christ. It is simple logic that Jesus Christ cannot be a christian because then he would be a follower of himself. It is like saying that Mufaddal is the first Abde Mufaddal!! Get it you guys? In fact, Jesus Christ was not known as "Christ" till much after his death. If you read the link posted by zinger bhai, there are a few more links in the article. Follow through and you will learn what you've got wrong.

And zinger bhai has clarified that Ali was neither Shia or Sunni.. He was just a muslim. So when critical thinker bhai says that

The truth is that there is no such thing as "only muslims'.

he is clearly wrong.

[hsnhussain]

I have read posts where the notion of being 'only muslim' is being promoted and somehow confused or negated by being a shia/sunni/wahhabi.
The truth is that there is no such thing as "only muslims'.

Brother Anajmi
If you read these 2 sentences together it is obvious that CT is referring to people on this forum.

[anajmi]

I was away last week responding via phone. So this is what I wanted to say.

1. Who was ali?
a. The first successor to the prophet
b. The fourth successor to the prophet

Actually, there are no "successors" to the prophet (saw). After the prophet (saw) passed, there were khalifas. Only one of them is known as a khalifatar-rasul - khalifa of the prophet (saw) - and that is Abu Bakr Siddique. So, Hazrat Ali (ra) wasn't the fourth successor to the prophet (saw), he was the khalifa of the muslim ummah after Hazrat Uthman (ra). There is no first or second or third. No one succeeded anyone. Unlike today, Islam wasn't anyone's "baap ki jaagir" back then.

2. What are shias?
a. Fellow muslims from a different school of thought in islam
b. Kafirs who must be abused and their beliefs insulted

Actually there is a third category.

c. Mushriks.

A kafir cannot be a muslim. The two are mutually exclusive. So fayyaaz for eg. is a kafir. But saying that doesn't make me a wahhabi because fayyaaz himself says that he is a kafir. Otherwise that would make him a wahhabi instead of a kafir.

A mushrik can be a muslim and still be an idol worshipper. In the Quran Luqman (as) advises his son not to do shirk with Allah as shirk is the "Azeem" zulm. Which would mean that a muslim is capable of committing shirk. There are various ways of committing shirk. Shirk is when you associate partners with Allah. So if someone claims that you cannot enter jannah without the permission of so and so, then you have committed shirk. If someone claims that sajda is required for some human, then he has committed shirk, etc, etc. Infact, if you study the bohras you will find many different ways in which shirk can be committed.

[fayyaaz]

So fayyaaz for eg. is a kafir. .... because fayyaaz himself says that he is a kafir.

Did fayyaz say that himself?

[Saleemullah]

Dear Brothers & Sisters just see the image attached here which i have received recently on Whats app.

Which Clearly Says that Dai is like moon so now i doubt that after some days may be the bohras will start worshiping the moon also as the people were doing

in the period of jahalat before Rasoolallah (SAW). And that all depends on SMS if he tells bohras to look at the moon and remember him in their heart

then he will immediately send an angel from the millions of angels which he has for his service day and night.

[anajmi]

This is actually good. Allah has clearly prohibited sajda to the Sun and the Moon in the Quran. If any bohra still continues to do sajda to the Dai and the Imam, he or she will be doomed.

This is what happens when people are not on the straight path. They start going around in circles.

[fayyaaz]

A mushrik can be a muslim and still be an idol worshipper.

A sentence worthy of analysis.


A mushrik can be an idol-worshiper and still be a muslim?

A muslim can be a mushrik and still be an idol-worshiper?

Let us remove idol-worship.

A mushrik can be a muslim?

A muslim can be a mushrik?

[Saleemullah]

The concept is totally wrong in whichever way we look at it.

it will be wrong only because its not at all possible

[fayyaaz]

in 3:67, Quran says

مَا كَانَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ يَهُودِيًّا وَلَا نَصْرَانِيًّا وَلَٰكِنْ كَانَ حَنِيفًا مُسْلِمًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian. Rather he was a ḥanīf, a muslim, and he was not one of the mushriks.

This rather rules out Abraham being both a muslim and a mushrik, doesn't it.

In 6:161-163, Quran says

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say, ‘Indeed my Lord has guided me to a straight path, the upright religion, the creed of Abraham, a ḥanīf, and he was not one of the mushriks.’

قُلْ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Say, ‘Indeed my prayer and my worship, my life and my death are for the sake of Allah, the Lord of all the worlds.

لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ ۖ وَبِذَٰلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ

He has no partner, and this [creed] I have been commanded [to follow], and I am the first of Muslims.’

Muhammad is commanded to say that he is guided upon the creed of Abraham who was not a mushrik but a muslim (3:67). Muhammad is also commanded to say that he, Muhammad, is the first Muslim.

[anajmi]

Oh well, looks like the bohras are in deeper shit than I had originally imagined. Time for them to turn themselves around as soon as possible. Thanks fayyaaz for pointing that out.

[fayyaaz]

Actually, there are no "successors" to the prophet (saw). After the prophet (saw) passed, there were khalifas. Only one of them is known as a khalifatar-rasul - khalifa of the prophet (saw) - and that is Abu Bakr Siddique. So, Hazrat Ali (ra) wasn't the fourth successor to the prophet (saw), he was the khalifa of the muslim ummah after Hazrat Uthman (ra). There is no first or second or third. No one succeeded anyone.

The word 'khalifa' literally means successor.

Abu Bakr called himself Khalifa of Rasulullah.

Umar at first called himself Khalifa of 'Khalifa of Rasulullah'. Umar decided the title was too long and abbreviated it simply to Khalifa. Later he was called Khalifa #2 or 2nd Khalifa.

Usman could have called himself Khalifa of Khalifa of Khalifa of Rasulullah'. But that was shortened to Khalifa #3 or 3rd Khalifa and so on.

[KA786110]

A person can recite Shahada and accept Islam. But accepting Islam does not make that persom Ahl-E-Iman. That is why God has addressed to true Mulims as 'Ae Imaan Waalo' (O ye who believe).

Now coming to Fayyaaz's point. He raises a very valid point. A Muslim by definition cannot be mushrik. A Munafiq can be.

[fayyaaz]

Oh well, looks like the bohras are in deeper shit than I had originally imagined. Time for them to turn themselves around as soon as possible. Thanks fayyaaz for pointing that out.

My intent was to point out 'weakness' in your writing. Now tell me if fayyaaz, as you claim, really said it himself that he was a kafir.

[KA786110]

Oh well, looks like the bohras are in deeper shit than I had originally imagined. Time for them to turn themselves around as soon as possible. Thanks fayyaaz for pointing that out.

Very funny. How you draw conclusions.

[anajmi]

The word 'khalifa' literally means successor.

No it does not. Allah says that Adam is his khalifa on earth. Go figure!!

Gotta go. More later.

[KA786110]

The word 'khalifa' literally means successor.

No it does not. Allah says that Adam is his khalifa on earth. Go figure!!

Gotta go. More later.

A classic case of disproving your own argument by the example itself. You are on a roll today.

[fayyaaz]

The word 'khalifa' literally means successor.

No it does not. Allah says that Adam is his khalifa on earth. Go figure!!

Gotta go. More later.

Hit the dictionary, you moron!

khalifa is a noun derived from the verb 'khalafa', meaning 'to succeed'. In the case of Adam, Khalifa is translated as 'vicegerent' meaning the one who represents God's authority. Muslim Khalifas were exercising Rasulullah's authority. So they were Rasulullah's vicegerents.

[Saleemullah]

Hey All recently SMS is designated as the Chancellor for Aligarh university.

I Wonder Howcome a Jamea dropout is fit to be a chancellor for a university.

[KA786110]

No it does not. Allah says that Adam is his khalifa on earth. Go figure!!

Gotta go. More later.

Hit the dictionary, you moron!

khalifa is a noun derived from the verb 'khalafa', meaning 'to succeed'. In the case of Adam, Khalifa is translated as 'vicegerent' meaning the one who represents God's authority. Muslim Khalifas were exercising Rasulullah's authority. So they were Rasulullah's vicegerents.

He needs to apply his advice (Go figure!!) on himself. His arguments are so hilarious. One does not need to watch 'Comedy Nights' to get some laughs anymore. They can just come here and read his arguments.

[KA786110]

Hey All recently SMS is designated as the Chancellor for Aligarh university.

I Wonder Howcome a Jamea dropout is fit to be a chancellor for a university.

How is your post relevant to this thread?

[anajmi]

If a khalifa is actually a successor, then since bohras/shias do not consider Ali to be a khalifa, but an Imam instead (or foundation of Imamat depending on who you talk to), they actually do not consider him to be a successor at all.

And since Abu Bakr Siddique is referred to as the khalifa, then he is the actual successor of the prophet (saw).

Which actually implies that Ali is in the succession line of the prophet (saw) according to the Sunnis but not according to the bohras. Wow!!!

[anajmi]

He has no partner, and this [creed] I have been commanded [to follow], and I am the first of Muslims.’

Muhammad is commanded to say that he is guided upon the creed of Abraham who was not a mushrik but a muslim (3:67). Muhammad is also commanded to say that he, Muhammad, is the first Muslim.

Question. What is the difference between these two sentences if any.

1) I am the first of Muslims.
2) I am the first Muslim.

[anajmi]

in 3:67, Quran says

مَا كَانَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ يَهُودِيًّا وَلَا نَصْرَانِيًّا وَلَٰكِنْ كَانَ حَنِيفًا مُسْلِمًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian. Rather he was a ḥanīf, a muslim, and he was not one of the mushriks.

This rather rules out Abraham being both a muslim and a mushrik, doesn't it.

In 6:161-163, Quran says

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say, ‘Indeed my Lord has guided me to a straight path, the upright religion, the creed of Abraham, a ḥanīf, and he was not one of the mushriks.’

A muslim can be a mushrik. That would be a bad muslim though. One who will be punished for his shirk unless he repents. Doesn't mean all muslims are mushrik. Ibrahim (as) was a muslim and he was not a mushrik. A bohra is a mushrik but also a muslim. They are not mutually exclusive. Allah specifies that Ibrahim (as) was not a mushrik, but He doesn't specify that he was not a kafir. Why? Because to say that someone is a muslim, automatically rules out the possibility of him being a kafir.