Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowledge

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
lawgraduate
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:31 pm

Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowledge

#1

Unread post by lawgraduate » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:42 am

Bismillah,

Can a son succeed his father and become the next “Living Imam” (or Hazar Imam) if the son predeceases the father? If not, then those who call themselves as Shia Ismailis have to think harder before calling themselves the followers of Imam Ismail who did not live long enough to become the next Hazar Imam.

If you think this is interesting read the link

https://insideismailism.wordpress.com/2 ... ther-died/

Sceptical
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#2

Unread post by Sceptical » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:11 pm

There is a second version :
Ismail AS death was staged by his Father to protect him. Ismail AS died after his father.

Nass cannot be retracted. An Imam is born Imam.
Ja'far Imam AS did nass upon Ismail AS.
So Ismail AS is Imam and imamat should remain in his lineage. He died before or after his father does not matter.
Period.

It is Ismaili belief. If you don't agree, please stop bothering us.

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#3

Unread post by lawgraduate » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:21 pm

Sceptical wrote:There is a second version :
Ismail AS death was staged by his Father to protect him. Ismail AS died after his father.

Nass cannot be retracted. An Imam is born Imam.
Ja'far Imam AS did nass upon Ismail AS.
So Ismail AS is Imam and imamat should remain in his lineage. He died before or after his father does not matter.
Period.

It is Ismaili belief. If you don't agree, please stop bothering us.
why frustration?

it was kuffare macca belief that Al-Laat, Al-‘Uzza and Manaat are GOD but Prophet Muhammed(s) kept bothering them until they all turned up to ALLAH SUBHANU. so keep patience if you think you are on HAQ and dont get bothered.

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#4

Unread post by lawgraduate » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:24 pm

Sceptical wrote:There is a second version :
Ismail AS death was staged by his Father to protect him. Ismail AS died after his father.

Nass cannot be retracted. An Imam is born Imam.
Ja'far Imam AS did nass upon Ismail AS.
So Ismail AS is Imam and imamat should remain in his lineage. He died before or after his father does not matter.
Period.

It is Ismaili belief. If you don't agree, please stop bothering us.
this is a big tohmat on Imam jafer by Ismailis, they indirectly trying to say Imam jafar tried to do makkari with majority of shia by keeping them blind and staging Ismail death. Nauzobillah.

just to keep your self correct you are throwing rubbish on Imam jafar(A)

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#5

Unread post by Munira_RV » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:03 am

lawgraduate wrote:Bismillah,

Can a son succeed his father and become the next “Living Imam” (or Hazar Imam) if the son predeceases the father? If not, then those who call themselves as Shia Ismailis have to think harder before calling themselves the followers of Imam Ismail who did not live long enough to become the next Hazar Imam.

If you think this is interesting read the link

https://insideismailism.wordpress.com/2 ... ther-died/
Yes, a son can succeed his father, and son's son will become the successor if son died in the life of his father.

In your life, if you have appointed your son as inheritor of your all property and you died in life of your father. Your father has willed his property to you in your life. Later, at death of your father; your brother will not become owner of your share because you died in your father's life. Your share will be passed to your son from your father. Same is the case with Imam Sadik a.s. - he in his life appointed Imam Ismail a.s. as his successor, he in turn appointed his son Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s. as his successor. Later, Imam Ismail a.s. died in life of Imam Sadik a.s. - by the same token, share (Imamat) of Ismail a.s. will be passed to Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s.

By the way, Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s. ibn Imam Ismail a.s. ibn Imam Sadik a.s. was elder than Hazrat Musa Kazim.

Historical analogies to prove death of son during lifetime of their father and son of deceased inherits the father of deceased:

(1) Prophet Ismail a.s. died in the life of Prophet Ibrahim a.s. - Ismail's brother has not become the inheritor of Ismail's title and assets, but Ismail's son Kezar become the next Imam/Prophet, the successor of Prophet Ibrahim a.s.

Death of Ismail in the life of Ibrahim has not stopped Kezar to inherit Prophet Ibrahim.

(2) Yusuf died in the life of Prophet Yaqoob. Yusuf's son Nāhōr inherited Yaqoob. So death of son do not stop the grandson to inherit grandfather title/assets.

(3) Harōn died in the life of Musa. Harōn's son Finhās became the successor of Musa and Harōn's death in life of Musa doesn't stop Finhās to succeed Musa.

In all three cases, son died in the life of their father, but their death do not stop son of deceased to inherit his grandfather. Hence, the death of Imam Ismail a.s. in life of Imam Sadik a.s. do not stop his son Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s. to inherit title/assets of his grandfather Imam Sadik a.s.

Hence proved, Ismaili chain of Imamate is connected with the Prophet Mohamed PBUH via Imam Sadik a.s.. Where else, the Ithna Asheri history got disconnected from Imam Sadik a.s.

AMAFHH
Posts: 274
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#6

Unread post by AMAFHH » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:14 am

Munira
regarding the First example so Imamat is not equivalent to Property as you have described it

Biradar
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#7

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:09 pm

lawgraduate wrote:
Sceptical wrote:There is a second version :
Ismail AS death was staged by his Father to protect him. Ismail AS died after his father.

Nass cannot be retracted. An Imam is born Imam.
Ja'far Imam AS did nass upon Ismail AS.
So Ismail AS is Imam and imamat should remain in his lineage. He died before or after his father does not matter.
Period.

It is Ismaili belief. If you don't agree, please stop bothering us.
this is a big tohmat on Imam jafer by Ismailis, they indirectly trying to say Imam jafar tried to do makkari with majority of shia by keeping them blind and staging Ismail death. Nauzobillah.

just to keep your self correct you are throwing rubbish on Imam jafar(A)
My friend "lawgraduate". The historical record is quite confused on this point (of Ismail predeceasing his father), but it is very likely that Ismaili did die while his father was alive. According to the Ismailis, the Imammat at that point passed onto the son of Imam Isamil, i.e. Imam Mohammad bin Ismail. Munira_RV has already explained this detail. It is said that "Imamat does not run backwards".

Also, I don't think Sceptical is trying to do an "tohmat" on Imam Jafer. During the time of Imam Jafer, and even earlier, the life of the Alids was in constant danger. In such situations, staging the death of his own son would not be too far fetched.

However, as I said, it is not clear (or even provable beyond a reasonable doubt) what really happened. It is best to not worry too much about these things, or get too worked up about what we can not possibly verify for sure.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#8

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:18 pm

Law graduate:

I would like to respond, but first I would like to know if you are a bohora or an Ithna.

KA786110
Posts: 360
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#9

Unread post by KA786110 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:25 pm

Another thread masquerading as search for knowledge but its true intent is totally opposite to its title.

KA786110
Posts: 360
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#10

Unread post by KA786110 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:52 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:Law graduate:

I would like to respond, but first I would like to know if you are a bohora or an Ithna.
Javed,
By looking at Law Grads response to sceptical, it appears that he is neither. He is most probably another sunni troll.

Regards

zinger
Posts: 2051
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#11

Unread post by zinger » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:30 am

KA786110 wrote:
JavedhJuma wrote:Law graduate:

I would like to respond, but first I would like to know if you are a bohora or an Ithna.
Javed,
By looking at Law Grads response to sceptical, it appears that he is neither. He is most probably another sunni troll.

Regards
agreed. i have pointed this out in pm to certain members and in open too

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#12

Unread post by lawgraduate » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:31 am

JavedhJuma wrote:Law graduate:

I would like to respond, but first I would like to know if you are a bohora or an Ithna.
it doesnt matters who I am, I am posting this to hear and read your views. defend your Imam maslaq if you think you are correct, and if you cant at least dont waste time on personal inquiries.

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#13

Unread post by lawgraduate » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:33 am

Biradar wrote:
lawgraduate wrote: this is a big tohmat on Imam jafer by Ismailis, they indirectly trying to say Imam jafar tried to do makkari with majority of shia by keeping them blind and staging Ismail death. Nauzobillah.

just to keep your self correct you are throwing rubbish on Imam jafar(A)
My friend "lawgraduate". The historical record is quite confused on this point (of Ismail predeceasing his father), but it is very likely that Ismaili did die while his father was alive. According to the Ismailis, the Imammat at that point passed onto the son of Imam Isamil, i.e. Imam Mohammad bin Ismail. Munira_RV has already explained this detail. It is said that "Imamat does not run backwards".

Also, I don't think Sceptical is trying to do an "tohmat" on Imam Jafer. During the time of Imam Jafer, and even earlier, the life of the Alids was in constant danger. In such situations, staging the death of his own son would not be too far fetched.

However, as I said, it is not clear (or even provable beyond a reasonable doubt) what really happened. It is best to not worry too much about these things, or get too worked up about what we can not possibly verify for sure.
dont you think staging son death to save his life but to ruin akhirat of thousands of shia is not an act of Imam?

fear of death cant be quality of an Imam, so it is clear Imam jafar would never do any such thing.

if people cant even verify what is truth, this ismailism is in big mess

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#14

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:52 am

KA786110 wrote:
JavedhJuma wrote:Law graduate:

I would like to respond, but first I would like to know if you are a bohora or an Ithna.
Javed,
By looking at Law Grads response to sceptical, it appears that he is neither. He is most probably another sunni troll.

Regards
Brothers Zinger and KA786110,
He is the reincarnation of Noorali M and somebody Akbar K, and many more, looking to condemn Ismailis. He is on Bohora site who are part of Ismailis which he does not know. He is trying to attack Ismailis (Nizari) on Bohora site hoping to find some idiots condemning Ismailis but he is unsuccessful. Bohoras are wrapped up in their own struggle. He is neither Sunni nor Wahabi. I am 100% sure he is an Ithna troll the way he is trying to justify Musa Kazim as a successor of Imam Jafar Sadiq AS.
He does not know the difference between Bohora Ismailis and Nizari Ismailis.

Watch Admin will close the thread, and rightly so, because Admin can smell these rats. And he will go away and return under another identity doing the same.

These rats are all over the place trying to convert gullible bohoras into Ithna. He has been criticising MS all over the place in other threads having no sympathy for them in their trying times. These are the fitnatis and he is a part of these lanatis.

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#15

Unread post by lawgraduate » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:23 am

all rants no substance? where is dalil? is it prohibated in ismailis to ask questions? kyu bhai itni mirchi kyu lag gayi? sidha sawal kaa jawab kyu nahi deta? btw link which I have posted in my first post is not from me, but from an ex ismaili, and now he is exposing these bastards in every possible ways.

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#16

Unread post by lawgraduate » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:30 am

face book page run by EX-Ismailis

https://www.facebook.com/rethinkingismailism

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#17

Unread post by Munira_RV » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:37 pm

[*] Prophet Ibrahim (Grand father - is alive),
[*] Prophet Ismail (son of Prophet Ibrahim - died in life of Ibrahim),
[*] Prophet Kezar became next prophet, succeeding Ibrahim.
[*] Prophethood passed from grandfather to Kezar (grandson) and not to Prophet Ismail's brother.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[*] Prophet Yaqoob (Grand father - is alive),
[*] Prophet Yusuf (son of Yaqoob - died in life of Yaqoob),
[*] Nāhōr became next prophet, succeeding Yaqoob.
[*] Prophethood passed from grandfather to Nāhōr (grandson) and not to Prophet Yusuf's brother.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[*] Prophet Musa (was alive),
[*] Prophet Haroon (died in life of Musa),
[*] Finhās son of Haroon became next prophet, succeeding Musa.
[*] Prophethood passed from Musa to Finhās and not to Prophet Haroon's brother.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[*] Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. (Grand father - is alive),
[*] Imam Ismail a.s. (died in life of Imam Sadik),
[*] Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s. became next Imam, succeeding Imam Sadik a.s..
[*] Prophethood passed from grandfather Imam Sadik a.s. to Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s.(grandson) and not to Imam Ismail's brother Hz. Musa Kazim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lawgraduate
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#18

Unread post by lawgraduate » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:49 pm

Imam Hassan (A) transferred his Imamat to Imam Hussain(A) his brother.

isnt it funny that we are talking about Imammat and you are giving examples of nubuwat?

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#19

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:24 pm

low-graduate wrote:Imam Hassan (A) transferred his Imamat to Imam Hussain(A) his brother.

isnt it funny that we are talking about Imammat and you are giving examples of nubuwat?
Hey, LOW-graduate,
Nizari Ismailis do not have time to waste on trolls and ex-Ismailis. Everybody is free to practice their own. I do not have time to waste on junkies.

No mirchi nahi lagi hai but jahalyat ki had hoti hai. Aap Jahail ho. You do not even know bohoras are ismailis and believing the same as Ismailis (Nizari) re: Imam Ismaili AS, whom you hate with passion lekin, Nur-e-Illahi ko buja sakta hai kon? For a hundred plus years you guys have tried fitnas against Ismailis. Ismailis (Nizari) are happier than you and they do not criticise anybody, but, if you try to downplay them then you will hear from them.

As regards the ex-Ismaili face book, I have not visited it because your cult is very famous for doing the fitnah and probably you are the ones pretending to be ex-Ismailis. I am 100% sure. Afterall you are the breakaway Jamat and ex-Ismailis.

Please read my next post which was written by one of your people in four parts. He was your Sheikh and wanted to convert to Ismailism but died before he could be accepted in the faith. Unlike you we do not convert people as fast as you do.

This is only one part. I have more. If you want I can post the rest here.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#20

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:38 pm

For low-graduate from one of your own, Sheikh Carney:

The necessity of taqiyyah is quite obvious when we
understand the nature of the age.

When the signs of the Imam become manifest, and his flags are raised, and his
call is established, and his signs and proofs are made manifest, he will manifest himself over his enemies and those who hate him.

Prophet said there will never be another Prophet sent after Muhammad, and he said: “Indeed, my Lord has promised me that the sun will rise from the West,” and the esoteric meaning of this refers to the Imams. ..

Just as the day rises at dawn, most have become like the Sunnis who have become blind, not realizing that the sun which you see will return to Ali ibn Abi Tailb, and that it is the sun of caliphate after the Prophet of Allah.

This is no different then the return of the sun to Joshua after Aaron. Does this proof need anymore? It is necessary to accept the belief that Ismail took hold of the command after his father.

We have come with proofs that can only be denied by the most obstinate rejector. The secret of his belief has become manifest. They hope to extinguish the Light of Allah, but Allah will complete His Light even if the disbelievers are averse.

When his death was announced, his companions gathered together, and the command was passed to Ismail, who was made the Gate of Allah and His prayer niche, the house of His Light, the connection between Him and His Creation, and the caliph of Allah in His earth.

..Ismail son of Abraham and Harun and Musa. and there was no change in decree as there was concerning Ismail.

This is a clear contradiction, for if this were the case then the affair would return to Ja’far, and would not move about randomly...and if Ismail as Shias agree was the one who had received the Nass but had died in his lifetime i.e of Imam Jafar as Sadiq...then either the issue goes back to Imam or Imamat moves downwards to Imam Ismail's son...and NOT randomly sideways to a brother....

And yet one finds evidence of Imam Ismail's tomb in Syria....and NOT Arabia...and so if he had died in Arabia...how did the tomb end up in Syria...

And so they who rejected the truth will only have humiliation in this worldly life.

Allah certainly did not give Ismail the caliphate knowing that he was going to die...

And so change in Divine decree and will occurs in everything except Imamah, and the words of the Prophet that “His name will be my name, and his fathers name will be like my father’s name.” )Imam Mahdi was born in the Ismaili lineage...in the Twelver lineage...the 12th is NOT born as yet as per their own books)

Or, in another narration, “Gabriel my beloved told me from the Lord of the Universe that a man from my progeny will emerge at the end of time, his name like my name and the name of his father like the name of my father, calling people to the most radiant religion of Allah in a time where apostacy is rampant and where Islam and the Law have been lost.

All of that will happen because of the various misguidances they have fallen into, and so they will be brought out of the misguidance of chaos and endless disputing, and they will be brought out of it just as I brought you out of polytheism in the age of ignorance.”

Imam as-Sadiq has said:


“If one of you brought me the head of my son, then do not doubt that he is
the Imam after me,” or his statement “The one who is between my two hands here, he is the Imam after me, so what ever you take from him, you have taken it from me.” (Ja’far ibn Mansur Sara’ir wa Asrar an-Nutaqa 248-256).


The time of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq and Imam Isma‘il ibn Ja’far’s Imamah was also a period of horrific oppression against the family of the Prophet, as well as a time of great social and political upheaval.

Sayyed Hossein Nasr writes...

The question of the successor to the Imam (Jafar Sadik) having been made particularly difficult by the fact that the Abbasid caliph al-Mansur had decided to scourge to death whoever was to be chosen officially by the Imam as his successor thereby hoping to put an end to the Shiite movement (Nasr Ideals 165-166

In any case, the idea that Imam as-Sadiq would have worked to protect the future Imam from the authorities is not as farfetched as supposing or saying that the Twelfth Imam has been hiding for the past ,1000 plus years without any representatives, abandoning his followers to nothing but guesswork and speculation.

It is absurd to think that Imam Ja’far knowing that the Light of Allah was made manifest in one son and he begs Allah to make a switch when its divine will and not in the hands of the incumbent Imam....

Clearly, no Twelver would believe that the Imam would be so foolish as to beg Allah to switch the Imamah from one person to another..

Every Shi’a believes that the Imam is an Imam from birth and so there is no way of “changing it.”

The great French philosopher and Orientalist, Henry Corbin, writes about the light of the Imam

As soon as he is “invested” (nass), the young Imam becomes the support of the Temple of Light. His Imamah or “divinity” is the corpus mysticum [the mystical body] composed of all the Forms of light of his disciples (Corbin History 92

Yet these Twelver hadiths state that it was precisely such a “switch” that Imam Ja’far was seeking from Allah; but we know that the luminous nature of the Imam is something ontological rather than political.

The Imam does not merely appoint a successor, as a king might; rather he announces who his successor will be, he informs the people who will bear the Light of Imamah after him.

The fact that so many narrations about Imam Musa’s nomination are based upon the spurious idea that Imam as-Sadiq begged Allah to make Isma’il the Imam, but Allah refused and chose to give the Imamah to Imam Musa instead, casts a shadow upon all their hadiths on the subject.

It should be clear to anybody who believes in the Imamah of
Ja’far as-Sadiq that these narrations are either made up, or at best were uttered in taqiyyah.


If they were made up, then why did the mainstream Twelvers
have to resort to such crass forgery?


Did they not have the truth on their side, and the clear Nass of the Prophet about Twelve Imams?

And if they were true but uttered in taqiyyah, why would Imam as-Sadiq have to do taqiyyah about his dead son who was already dead?

What would have been the purpose of such taqiyyah?



One of the greatest proofs against the mainstream Twelvers is the confused and contradictory nature of mainstream Twelver Shi’a reports about Imam Isma’il’s succession and character.


While the mainstream Twelver Shi’a are unanimous that Imam
Isma’il did not inherit Imamah from his father, when it comes to the details we find a terrible mess of conflicting reports.

On the one hand the mainstream Twelvers acknowledge that Isma’il was the most beloved son of Imam as-Sadiq; but then some of their greatest scholars invent crass arguments where they try to argue to justify their position..

Shaykh as-Saduq offers the narration as proof that Imam Ja’far could have never given Nass to Isma’il, and that Imam Ja’far had no affection for him whatsoever.


When we look at the mainstream Twelver hadith
literature concerning Isma’il, we are faced with nothing but confusion and contradiction.


Some Twelvers may consider it far-fetched to say that Imam Ja’far would have faked his son’s death; but it is more far-fetched to
believe that Imam as-Sadiq begged Allah to make one son as the Imam,and not the other one... or that Imam as-Sadiq
condemned Isma’il while all the historical sources say that Isma’il was Imam as-Sadiq’s most beloved son.

Many people, upon seeing such contradictory evidences, would immediately assume that such "evidences" were forgeries.

This is, indeed, a distinct possibility. If the Twelvers were fighting on the side of truth, there should have been no reason to forge hadiths for their cause.

But if we reject the argument that most of these
narrations were uttered in a state of taqiyyah, the confused and
contradictory reports about Imam Isma’il indicate that such forgery did occur, and probably on a very wide-scale level.

A true believer would know that God suffices them in all affairs, and that the one who struggles for truth will never have to resort to lies and treachery.



__._,_.___

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#21

Unread post by lawgraduate » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:01 am

since ismaili boot lickers are trying to post out of subject post, I wont reply any thing but to those who are posting to subject, I request Admin to delete out of subject post so that real face of these ismailis can be brought out in light. dont even have a dalil to save their faith and they call troll to others? munira I am waiting for your reply

zinger
Posts: 2051
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#22

Unread post by zinger » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:19 am

JavedhJuma wrote:
KA786110 wrote: Javed,
By looking at Law Grads response to sceptical, it appears that he is neither. He is most probably another sunni troll.

Regards
Brothers Zinger and KA786110,
He is the reincarnation of Noorali M and somebody Akbar K, and many more, looking to condemn Ismailis. He is on Bohora site who are part of Ismailis which he does not know. He is trying to attack Ismailis (Nizari) on Bohora site hoping to find some idiots condemning Ismailis but he is unsuccessful. Bohoras are wrapped up in their own struggle. He is neither Sunni nor Wahabi. I am 100% sure he is an Ithna troll the way he is trying to justify Musa Kazim as a successor of Imam Jafar Sadiq AS.
He does not know the difference between Bohora Ismailis and Nizari Ismailis.

Watch Admin will close the thread, and rightly so, because Admin can smell these rats. And he will go away and return under another identity doing the same.

These rats are all over the place trying to convert gullible bohoras into Ithna. He has been criticising MS all over the place in other threads having no sympathy for them in their trying times. These are the fitnatis and he is a part of these lanatis.
Javedbhai, you are telling this to someone who has exposed over 30 ids of his. trust me, i can spot him from a mile away.
i dont think he is a shia even! And i have pointed out his id to admin every time, but admin is either tied up in more pressing matters or has their hands and feed bound for reasons best known to them.

lawgraduate
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#23

Unread post by lawgraduate » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:30 am

why so much eager to close thread? why not bring dalil to save your maslaq?
munira is at least trying, I suggest all other ignorants to stay aside and let the smart one talk, Admin please clean up rants from these jhahils.
those who wants to continue rants open another thread and cry there, let people with ilm discuss this subject.

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#24

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:22 am

lawgraduate wrote:Imam Hassan (A) transferred his Imamat to Imam Hussain(A) his brother.

isnt it funny that we are talking about Imammat and you are giving examples of nubuwat?
Following two prominent Ithna Asheri's book: Osool-a-Kafi and Bihar-ul-Anwaar says: Hasan and Hussain are the only two brothers who shared Imamat, after them Imamat will never be passed between two brothers.

Mohammmad PBUH too is Prophet and not Imam. All Imams and all Muslims follow PROPHETS. Imam in matter of Shariyat do not do contrary to Prophets. So it is apt to cite the deeds of Prophet to set the precedents. Only Ismail line of Imamate passes these precedents, other line of Imamate fails the precedents of Prophets.

Sunnat = do's and saying of Mohammad PBUH.

Hazrat Abdullah, father of Mohammad PBUH died in life of Abdul Mutalib (Mohammad's grand father). Abdullah's death didn't stop Mohammad PBUH to succeed Abdul Mutalib. Mohammad's uncle like Abu Lahab didn't became the transferee of Abdullah's share because he died in life of his father Abdul Mutalib. Similarly, though Imam Ismail a.s. died in life of Imam Sadik a.s., his son Mohammad Shakir a.s. succeeded Imam Sadik a.s. and Ismail's brother Musa Kazim can't became transferee of Imamat like Abu Lahab can't became transferee of Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutalib. So Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s. succeeding Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. is per the Sunnat of Mohammad PBUH. Considering Hz. Musa Kazim as the successor is as good as considering Abu Jahal as the successor and rejecting the right of Mohammad PBUH.
Last edited by Munira_RV on Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

lawgraduate
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#25

Unread post by lawgraduate » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:24 am

Munira_RV wrote:
lawgraduate wrote:Imam Hassan (A) transferred his Imamat to Imam Hussain(A) his brother.

isnt it funny that we are talking about Imammat and you are giving examples of nubuwat?
Following two prominent Ithna Asheri's book: Osool-a-Kafi and Bihar-ul-Anwaar says: Hasan and Hussain are the only two brothers who shared Imamat, after them Imamat will never be passed between two brothers.

Mohammmad PBUH too is Prophet and not Imam. All Imams and all Muslims follow PROPHETS. Imam in matter of Shariyat do not do contrary to Prophets.

Sunnat = do's and saying of Mohammad PBUH.

Hazrat Abdullah, father of Mohammad PBUH died in life of Abdul Mutalib (Mohammad's grand father). Abdullah's death didn't stop Mohammad PBUH to succeed Abdul Mutalib. Mohammad's uncle like Abu Lahab didn't became the transferee of Abdullah's share because he died in life of his father Abdul Mutalib. Similarly, though Imam Ismail a.s. died in life of Imam Sadik a.s., his son Mohammad Shakir a.s. succeeded Imam Sadik a.s. and Ismail's brother Musa Kazim can't became transferee of Imamat like Abu Lahab can't became transferee of Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutalib. So Imam Mohammad Shakir a.s. succeeding Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. is per the Sunnat of Mohammad PBUH. Considering Hz. Musa Kazim as the successor is as good as considering Abu Jahal as the successor and rejecting the right of Mohammad PBUH.
so you agree Imamat can be passed from brother to brother, and I think rest is clear, Thank You

lawgraduate
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#26

Unread post by lawgraduate » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:26 am

Chalo ek baar mein tumhari baat maan leta hu ki ismail was Imam, so now who is Imam e zamana?

if imam is not present and in purdah who is in his seat? whom do you believe at this moment as a leader?

Munira_RV
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#27

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:30 am

Where have I said, "I agree...."? It is Ithna Asheri's book that makes such claims - Ithna's own book contends: Imamat cannot be transferred from Imam Ismail a.s. to his brother Hz. Musa Kazim.

lawgraduate
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#28

Unread post by lawgraduate » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:34 am

Munira_RV wrote:Where have I said, "I agree...."? It is Ithna Asheri's book that makes such claims - Ithna's own book contends: Imamat cannot be transferred from Imam Ismail a.s. to his brother Hz. Musa Kazim.
Imam Hassan transferred his Imammat to Imam Hussain(s) matter is closed. it is well documented in many books, both were haq naa Imam.

who is your present rehbar?

Munira_RV
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#29

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:35 am

lawgraduate wrote:Chalo ek baar mein tumhari baat maan leta hu ki ismail was Imam, so now who is Imam e zamana?

if imam is not present and in purdah who is in his seat? whom do you believe at this moment as a leader?
Allah's appointed son's in the progeny of Imam Ismail a.s. is the current era Imam-uz-zaman.

Imam seat can be occupied only by an Imam and not by anyone else. The knowledge rightful Fatimi Ismaili Imam's have left among us is the leader at the moment.

Munira_RV
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Re: Disconnected Ismaili History - for those who seek knowle

#30

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:37 am

lawgraduate wrote:Imam Hassan transferred his Imammat to Imam Hussain(s) matter is closed. it is well documented in many books, both were haq naa Imam.
How above point proves Hz. Musa Kazim succeeded Imam Ismail a.s. or if Hz. Musa Kazim is rightful Imam?