Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#2

Unread post by KA786110 » Sun May 03, 2015 11:01 am

A very good article. Very insightful. Thanks for sharing it here. :D :D :D :D

One of the many quotes from a Muslim scholar cited in the article:

"A well-informed Christian can teach Islam better than an ill-informed Muslim."

- Muslim scholar Zeki Saritoprak


Another snippet from the article:

Abu-Shaweesh says she enrolled in the class largely to learn more about her religion and its text. When the archbishop explained that Shiite Muslims believe the Quran is interpreted best by the "purified" imams — those who are loyal to the direct lineage of the Prophet Muhammad through his cousin and son-in-law Ali — Abu-Shaweesh raised her hand with a question. As a Sunni Muslim, she is not familiar with some Shiite views.

"So for those who don't come from Ali and Prophet Muhammad's lineage, even if they are imams, that means they're not purified?" she asked.

"They can be purified for other purposes," Fitzgerald said, "but they don't have this particular gift to help them understand the Quran."

Abu-Shaweesh says she learns something new about her religion every day from Fitzgerald and is thrilled by the experience.

"I am just blown away every class," she says. "I feel so much happiness."

She is especially impressed by the interest and respect her non-Muslim classmates show for her religion.

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#3

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue May 05, 2015 7:23 pm

Basics of Quran are these:

1. Have faith and do good works.
2. Pray and offer charity.
3. Follow social commandments as laid down in the book.
4. Defend Islam even if it means you forfeit your life in the process.
5. Obey Prophet and those he put in charge in matters not clearly laid down in the book.

In his lifetime, Prophet resolved matters in two ways. Either the resolution was given to him as an ayat of the Quran or he used his own judgment. After his death, authority passed to Imams for the Shia and to consensus (ijmaa) among non-Shia.

For the Shia, Imam is like the Quran and Prophet. Whatever he says goes. Since Imam is now absent, Shias are in a limbo and worship their local stand-in Imam. Aga Khan is a claimant to Imamat but since he has taken his community in different direction, I will not consider him a contender.

For the non-Shia, consensus was based on sayings and practices of the Prophet which are compiled as Hadith. Opinions of respected elders like the four Imams are conserved in Jurisprudence (Fiqh). Fiqh is continually updated to suit changing times by regional authorities in Egypt, India, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, to name the most important authorities.

That is classical Islam. This entire edifice is being blown to bits by Radical Islam. Radical Islam has denounced the authorities held in high respect until mid-20th century. The heroes of Radical Islam are:

Ibn Taymiya
Abdul Wahhab
Hasan al-Banna
Abul Aala Maududi
Sayed Qutb

Modern interpretation of these 'foul' masters is extended by terrorists-in-chief, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and Ayman al-Zwahiri, God knows where they are hiding.

A few Christians, like most Muslims, want to respect classical Islam, but Muslims are caught up in a challenge posed by Radical Islam. That is the Islam that has become the norm in view of the majority of the peoples of the world. Ordinary Muslim, normally completely uneducated in Classical Islam, will be hard put to argue against the strident message of Radical Islam couched as it is in Quranic and Hadith terms.

No. Don't learn Islam from others but be aware of how Wahhabis use scriptures to justify their message of hate and why it appeals to young Muslims all over the world. In the coming confrontation with rest of the world, Muslims had better learn what they are led into by Wahhabis, Imams, Ayatullahs and Dais.

Why is Islam and Quran so important to you as an individual and why do you want to defend it? And what version would you want to defend? Ismaili version where Aga Khan has virtually taken the community out of the fold of Islam or the Bohra version where Islamic basics have metamorphosized to serve one family which has assumed Divine status? Or radical Islam with accent on violence? There is no good choice. It is all for the Devil.

Does anyone see a silver lining?

Muslim First
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#4

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue May 05, 2015 8:40 pm

Why is Islam and Quran so important to you as an individual and why do you want to defend it? And what version would you want to defend? Ismaili version where Aga Khan has virtually taken the community out of the fold of Islam or the Bohra version where Islamic basics have metamorphosized to serve one family which has assumed Divine status? Or radical Islam with accent on violence? There is no good choice. It is all for the Devil.
What about simple Islam.

-Read Quran with translation ( there is one web site will give you more than 40 translation)
-Read tafseer from different scholars
-Learn to pray ( does not matter Shia or Sunni way. Praying 5 prayers are established Sunnah)
-Observe fast during Ramadan.
-Observe all good deed which are mentioned in Qur'an
-Ignore secterian differences. Neither Imams nor Khalifas are around. Hz Ali served or remained silent even when he felt he should have been leader.
Wasalaam

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#5

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Tue May 05, 2015 10:11 pm

Aga Khan is a claimant to Imamat but since he has taken his community in different direction, I will not consider him a contender.
Can you please elaborate and explain this. This is very confusing to me.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#6

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:37 am

fayyaaz wrote:Basics of Quran are these:

1. Have faith and do good works.
2. Pray and offer charity.
3. Follow social commandments as laid down in the book.
4. Defend Islam even if it means you forfeit your life in the process.
5. Obey Prophet and those he put in charge in matters not clearly laid down in the book.

In his lifetime, Prophet resolved matters in two ways. Either the resolution was given to him as an ayat of the Quran or he used his own judgment. After his death, authority passed to Imams for the Shia and to consensus (ijmaa) among non-Shia.

For the Shia, Imam is like the Quran and Prophet. Whatever he says goes. Since Imam is now absent, Shias are in a limbo and worship their local stand-in Imam. Aga Khan is a claimant to Imamat but since he has taken his community in different direction, I will not consider him a contender.
You are are entitled to your opinions and conclusions. That is every person's inherent and irrevocable right. Especially critical for the matters of faith.

With that said, please do elaborate on your statement ' taken his community in different direction'

Different is not equal to incorrect.

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#7

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 06, 2015 10:56 am

JavedhJuma and KA786110,

I will clarify my view about "different direction". I consider that a positive development. JavedhJuma has stated that he is a follower of Aga Khan. What about you KA786110? Your id implies you are a Bohra. Are you? Or are you Aga Khani too. I will respond assuming that you are Aga Khani too.

In the article at the link posted by JavedhJuma, Quran is compared to Holy Eucharist rather than the Bible. Holy Eucharist represents the teachings of Christ. However, that applies only to the non-Shia. Among the Shia and particularly the Ismailies and Bohras, Quran and Bible are similar in that they are holy books needing interpretation by Imams. But it is the Imam, not the Quran that is equivalent of the Holy Eucharist.

Bible is simply a book requiring interpretation for changing times. Its reading is not important but participation in the Eucharist is how a Christian affirms his faith. Similarly, for the Shia, Quran is simply a book of ritual recitation for supposedly heavenly reward. You need not understand it. It is the Imam that assumes importance and it is the obedience to the Imam that determines if you are a Shia.

Unlike Bohras, Ismailies have abandoned ritualistic aspects of orthodox Islam. Bohras hypocritically are still engaged in them. They are slowly abandoning some of them like all the nafl prayers. This process will continue. It is the Dai that is the Eucharist equivalent.

In any political battle for the soul of Islam, Ismailies and Bohras will not feature at all. Ismailies are wisely out of the battle. The battle is primarily between orthodox Islam and Radical Islam. Iranian and Iraqi Shia may participate but only to retain political power regionally.

To round up, Radical Islam wants to literally interpret Quran and Hadith and found global society based on Medina during Prophet's lifetime. They want to kill apostates. I do not think Aga Khan or Bohra Dai would agree. They want to amputate thieves, stone adulterers and wage global war on non-Muslims. If you do agree, then you are not a Muslim according to Radical Islam and are an apostate deserving of being killed.

The problem is that Radical Islam has support for their views in the Quran and hadith. Do you want to be like them?

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#8

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 12:59 pm

Aga Khan is a claimant to Imamat but since he has taken his community in different direction, I will not consider him a contender.

Since you have not clearly responded, let me tell you. Aga Khan is not a claimant to the Imamat; He is the herediatry Imam from the Progeny of Fatima and Ali. This is a fact. The whole world knows that except a few like you who still have their own beliefs. And we do not care. His Imamat has not been challenged except for the slanderers, who just make up stories. You do not have to consider him a contender because he is not a contender. He is the only Imam from the progeny of the Prophet SAW. Zaidis claim to have somebody as direct descendant too and he is in Yemen. But nobody talks about him. Historians also have ignored him because of some discrepancies, which I do not care about. But I respect their claim.

He is the direct descendant of the Prophet SAW and Ismailis and scholars believe him to be so. Nobody cares what you think.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#9

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 1:07 pm

Fayazz:
Unlike Bohras, Ismailies have abandoned ritualistic aspects of orthodox Islam.
Same ding dong. No matter how many times we clarify our position same ding dong and accusations come around. Not even worth responding any more because it has been done so many times in this forum.

There is no orthodox Islam because the Prophet SAW emphasized on Ibn al-Waqt.

Nonetheless, what is orthodox Islam? Please clarify.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#10

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 1:28 pm

Fayyaz:
Basics of Quran are these:

1. Have faith and do good works.
2. Pray and offer charity.
3. Follow social commandments as laid down in the book.
4. Defend Islam even if it means you forfeit your life in the process.
5. Obey Prophet and those he put in charge in matters not clearly laid down in the book.
Please elaborate on No.4 and 5. in matters not clearly laid down in the book.

Who is in charge today? And who do we go to? Qur'an can't be wrong. Qur'an is very clear if you have Ulil Amr amongst you. Also any lay person can understand it if he has an open mind.

Please respond to my questions in the order I have written. Do not give me a long lecture. Just quote the Qur'an.
Why has Allah SWT left ambiguity (according to you)? Why has he not laid them down clearly. I think you are wrong. Everything in the Qur'an is described properly but sometimes people have problem understanding and they were asked to refer to the Prophet SAW for clarification. In the absence of the Prophet SAW who do people go to? Mullah and Molvis? They have brought Islam to its knees.

Just show me one person in the world who is capable of explaining to me what I do not understand and I will go to him. I do not need any clarification because I have no questions as regards the Qur'an. I read it when I have a question, and Wallah, everytime you open this Holy Book you learn something new, no matter how many times you have read it. Before you come jumping down my throat, let me tell you I read it everyday to find my answers to challenge others on this board and others out there.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#11

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 1:37 pm

For the non-Shia, consensus was based on sayings and practices of the Prophet which are compiled as Hadith. Opinions of respected elders like the four Imams are conserved in Jurisprudence (Fiqh).
For non-Shias, [Fiqh is continually updated to suit changing times by regional authorities in Egypt, India, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, to name the most important authorities.


Why is fiqh continuously updated? Is it because the Prophet Said to be Ibn al-Waqt? Why can't it stay the way it was? Who has more right the descendant of the Prophet or the the "elders" who have disagreements among themselves. Do you mean to tell me everybody is on the same page from Egypt to Saudi Arabia?

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#12

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 1:43 pm

Fayyaz
The problem is that Radical Islam has support for their views in the Quran and hadith. Do you want to be like them?
Do you know what you are saying? If Radical Islam has "support for their views" in the Qur'an and ahadith, why is it wrong? Don't we have to, according to you, follow the Qur'an and ahadith. ?

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#13

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 1:51 pm

To fayyaz, Please explain this as it is a very serious accusation:
And what version would you want to defend? Ismaili version where Aga Khan has virtually taken the community out of the fold of Islam
Show me one community in Islam that is at peace besides the Nizari Ismailis. Show me one community who does so much for Islam and Allah's creation than the Ismaili Imam.

Muslims are killing Muslims with the help of their own and the west. Why? Why? Why? Afterall, they are following Islam, according to you so what is their problem? Anybody who follows Islam should be peaceful or not. If not, then they are not following Islam, don't you think so. Think before you attack Ismailis.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#14

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 06, 2015 2:24 pm

fayyaaz wrote:JavedhJuma and KA786110,

I will clarify my view about "different direction". I consider that a positive development. .....
.
.
.

Thanks for a detailed reply. Now I see where you are coming from.

Shia implementation and execution of Islamic rituals will definitely vary from Ahle Sunnah. Even Sunni Tariqahs have variances (albeit minor). Ithna's are more closer to Ahle Sunnah since their line of Imams ended earlier then comes Mustali' Ismailis (Bohras) and then Nizari Ismailis.

But as Javed has mentioned the subject has been discussed many times on this forum.

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#15

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed May 06, 2015 3:35 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:
Aga Khan is a claimant to Imamat but since he has taken his community in different direction, I will not consider him a contender.

Aga Khan is not a claimant to the Imamat; He is the herediatry Imam from the Progeny of Fatima and Ali. This is a fact. The whole world knows that except a few like you who still have their own beliefs. And we do not care. His Imamat has not been challenged except for the slanderers, who just make up stories. You do not have to consider him a contender because he is not a contender. He is the only Imam from the progeny of the Prophet SAW. Zaidis claim to have somebody as direct descendant too and he is in Yemen. But nobody talks about him. Historians also have ignored him because of some discrepancies, which I do not care about. But I respect their claim.

He is the direct descendant of the Prophet SAW and Ismailis and scholars believe him to be so. Nobody cares what you think.
A cri- de-coeur from an Ismaili. Of course Aga Khan is the Imam for Ismailies. I do not dispute that. As you acknowledge, there are other Shia who point to different Imams. Thus we have Ithanashari Imam who has been hiding for centuries; we have a Bohra Imam who too went in to hiding centuries ago and Bohras believe that his progeny is alive in hiding. You mentioned Zaidi Imam as well. Thus there are different claimants with a set of believers each. They all claim they are descendants of the Prophet and their scholars too agree. So we have multiple claimants.

Bohras have multiple claimants for the seat of the Dai, each claiming to have been properly and authentically anointed by an Imam or his representative.

None of these matter in the battle for the soul of Islam which is being waged between Orthodox Islam and Radical Islam. Orthodox Islam tolerates Shia. Radical Islam wants to eliminate them.

Orthodox Islam is traditional Sunni Islam with Quran and Hadith as interpreted by Sunni scholars and their writings are freely available. Radical Islam confines itself to specific interpretation of Islam I outlined previously. It wants strict adherence to Quran and Hadith. It wants Sharia established in every country with examples of punishments I gave.

al-Baghdadi wants to lead prayers in the Grand Mosque in Makka. That would be a symbolic and crowning glory for Radical Islam.

I have never heard of Aga Khan leading a prayer in any mosque in any country. Imam would be expected to visibly lead 5 canonical prayers every day unless he is 'hidden'. Yes, a Muslim should abide by Quran and hadith. Neither Aga Khan, nor majority of Muslims do. That is the peeve of Radical Islam. Personally, it is time to re-examine Quran and hadith and question if they serve mankind today.

Till next week.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#16

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 06, 2015 4:24 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
None of these matter in the battle for the soul of Islam which is being waged between Orthodox Islam and Radical Islam. Orthodox Islam tolerates Shia. Radical Islam wants to eliminate them.

Orthodox Islam is traditional Sunni Islam with Quran and Hadith as interpreted by Sunni scholars and their writings are freely available. Radical Islam confines itself to specific interpretation of Islam I outlined previously. It wants strict adherence to Qur'an and Hadith.
Ok, that is your point of view.

I think there are more than two groups trying to define Islam at the moment. The two groups you mentioned and Shia (Iran/Iraq) are at loggerheads in the middle east now to redefine its political make up not the Soul of Islam. Western media is using this conflict unscrupulously to paint Islam as a barbaric and mindless religion. If you look closely at the origins of these Radical/Fanatic groups (Whahabi, Al Qaeda, Talibans etc) you will find they are not really interested in Islam but their goal is its destruction. They are simply distorting the message of Islam.

But on the world stage there are other players who are trying to bring focus the true nature (soul) of Islam. They are smaller groups but they are trying.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#17

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 4:30 pm

A cri- de-coeur from an Ismaili

Now I have to teach you French too, Fayyaz? It should read: cri-du-coeur.

JavedhJuma
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#18

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed May 06, 2015 4:47 pm

cri- de-coeur from an Ismaili. Of course Aga Khan is the Imam for Ismailies. I do not dispute that. As you acknowledge, there are other Shia who point to different Imams. Thus we have Ithanashari Imam who has been hiding for centuries; we have a Bohra Imam who too went in to hiding centuries ago and Bohras believe that his progeny is alive in hiding. You mentioned Zaidi Imam as well. Thus there are different claimants with a set of believers each. They all claim they are descendants of the Prophet and their scholars too agree. So we have multiple claimants.

Still a big difference between a hereditary Imam, i.e. HHthe Aga Khan and those claiming to be Imams.

Bohras have multiple claimants for the seat of the Dai, each claiming to have been properly and authentically anointed by an Imam or his representative.

None of these matter in the battle for the soul of Islam which is being waged between Orthodox Islam and Radical Islam. Orthodox Islam tolerates Shia. Radical Islam wants to eliminate them.


Orthodox Islam is traditional Sunni Islam with Quran and Hadith as interpreted by Sunni scholars and their writings are freely available. Radical Islam confines itself to specific interpretation of Islam I outlined previously. It wants strict adherence to Quran and Hadith. It wants Sharia established in every country with examples of punishments I gave.

al-Baghdadi wants to lead prayers in the Grand Mosque in Makka. That would be a symbolic and crowning glory for Radical Islam.

I have never heard of Aga Khan leading a prayer in any mosque in any country. Imam would be expected to visibly lead 5 canonical prayers every day unless he is 'hidden'. Yes, a Muslim should abide by Quran and hadith. Neither Aga Khan, nor majority of Muslims do. That is the peeve of Radical Islam. Personally, it is time to re-examine Quran and hadith and question if they serve mankind today. Since you are so smart why don't you take the initiative instead of running away every time you are caught with your pants down.

Just because you have never heard of Aga Khan leading a prayer does not mean he hasn't. At the age of 7 or 8 he led Idd Namaz in Nairobi Jamat Khana. When he came to the seat of Imamat he led Friday prayers at Sunni Mosque in Tanzania like his grandfather had done. Just because you haven't heard that does not mean he hasn't. You keep your beliefs to yourself, don't try to force upon others your ignorant ideas.

The rest of your post seems to be confused like your previous ones. I do not want to comment on other forms of Islam, because it seems you have no idea whatsoever, what Islam is.

I salute Anajmi for kicking your ignorant ...


Till next week.

anajmi
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 06, 2015 5:09 pm

Ismailis and Wahhabis united in kicking some butt. Now that is a welcome reform. :mrgreen:

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#20

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:18 pm

JavedhJuma wrote:A cri- de-coeur from an Ismaili

Now I have to teach you French too, Fayyaz? It should read: cri-du-coeur.
It is "cri de coeur". Fayyaz is correct in its usage.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#21

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:20 pm

KA786110 wrote:
JavedhJuma wrote:A cri- de-coeur from an Ismaili

Now I have to teach you French too, Fayyaz? It should read: cri-du-coeur.
It is "cri de coeur". Fayyaz is correct in its usage.

Your heartfelt and sincere appeal is admirable and I fully agree with it. :)
Last edited by KA786110 on Wed May 06, 2015 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#22

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:25 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
al-Baghdadi wants to lead prayers in the Grand Mosque in Makka. That would be a symbolic and crowning glory for Radical Islam.

I have never heard of Aga Khan leading a prayer in any mosque in any country.
A pesh-Imam leads prayer. Al-Bagdadi needs to do that to legitimize himself. Otherwise he is a small time warlord who has hit big time for now. He will be forgotten soon.

For Ismaili Imam, Javed has responded very nicely.

anajmi
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 06, 2015 9:38 pm

Is it different from circ du soleil?

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#24

Unread post by KA786110 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:48 pm

anajmi wrote:Is it different from circ du soleil?
LOL. :D

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#25

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu May 07, 2015 9:28 am

JavedhJuma wrote: Just because you have never heard of Aga Khan leading a prayer does not mean he hasn't. At the age of 7 or 8 he led Idd Namaz in Nairobi Jamat Khana. When he came to the seat of Imamat he led Friday prayers at Sunni Mosque in Tanzania like his grandfather had done. Just because you haven't heard that does not mean he hasn't. You keep your beliefs to yourself, don't try to force upon others your ignorant ideas.

You managed to provide two unverified instances of Aga Khan leading prayers in his long life? He is eighty years old, for God's sake!

Imam would pray five times every day if he is a Muslim and follows Prophet. If Aga Khan started praying at age 5, that is 75 years of unwitnessed prayers. He became Imam in 1957. That is nearly 60 years at the helm. Can you provide instances of him having led Fajar, Zohor, Asr, Maghrib or Isha prayers anywhere in the last 25 years when I am sure cameras would have been present?

If he prays like an orthodox Muslim, like those whom you see praying at the Grand Mosque in Makkah, do Ismailis follow him in that practice?

I do not want to discuss anymore about Aga Khan. Only about Islam. Being a patron of arts, education and architecture does not qualify him to be an Imam. Which building did Ali build all with his own money? No one would mistake Ismailis in their Jamt Khana as practicing Muslims.

There is nothing wrong in Ismailis, like Bohras and Ahmadis, following their own religion in any way they see fit. That is their right in the United States and 'free world'.

SBM
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#26

Unread post by SBM » Thu May 07, 2015 9:51 am

That is their right in the United States and 'free world'.
Yep Free United States and Free World, In Sweden one can not build Minarets anymore, In Europe, one can not wear Hijab to School, In Germany if you deny Holocaust you will be jailed and the list goes on of our Cherished Freedom in Free World.
In USA one can draw cartoon of Prophet Mohammed but can not draw cartoons of Lynching nor can draw cartoon of gassing, that is what the Freedom is all about in USA and Free World... :(

fayyaaz
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#27

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu May 07, 2015 10:05 am

SBM wrote:
That is their right in the United States and 'free world'.
Yep Free United States and Free World, In Sweden one can not build Minarets anymore, In Europe, one can not wear Hijab to School, In Germany if you deny Holocaust you will be jailed and the list goes on of our Cherished Freedom in Free World.
In USA one can draw cartoon of Prophet Mohammed but can not draw cartoons of Lynching nor can draw cartoon of gassing, that is what the Freedom is all about in USA and Free World... :(
I agree. There is horrendous foul play and hypocrisy in the 'free world'. These unflattering (according to 'free world' standards) situation is partly a reaction against terrorism perpetrated by Radical Islam in recent times and partly a result of successful Zionist stranglehold on media and legislative bodies in the 'free world'. My opinion.

KA786110
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Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#28

Unread post by KA786110 » Thu May 07, 2015 10:17 am

fayyaaz wrote:
JavedhJuma wrote: Just because you have never heard of Aga Khan leading a prayer does not mean he hasn't. At the age of 7 or 8 he led Idd Namaz in Nairobi Jamat Khana. When he came to the seat of Imamat he led Friday prayers at Sunni Mosque in Tanzania like his grandfather had done. Just because you haven't heard that does not mean he hasn't. You keep your beliefs to yourself, don't try to force upon others your ignorant ideas.

You managed to provide two unverified instances of Aga Khan leading prayers in his long life? He is eighty years old, for God's sake!

Imam would pray five times every day if he is a Muslim and follows Prophet. If Aga Khan started praying at age 5, that is 75 years of unwitnessed prayers. He became Imam in 1957. That is nearly 60 years at the helm. Can you provide instances of him having led Fajar, Zohor, Asr, Maghrib or Isha prayers anywhere in the last 25 years when I am sure cameras would have been present?

If he prays like an orthodox Muslim, like those whom you see praying at the Grand Mosque in Makkah, do Ismailis follow him in that practice?

I do not want to discuss anymore about Aga Khan. Only about Islam. Being a patron of arts, education and architecture does not qualify him to be an Imam. Which building did Ali build all with his own money? No one would mistake Ismailis in their Jamt Khana as practicing Muslims.

There is nothing wrong in Ismailis, like Bohras and Ahmadis, following their own religion in any way they see fit. That is their right in the United States and 'free world'.

Hmm. I think you are confusing "Islam the Religion" with its various "Tariqahs". The tenets of Islam are followed by each Tariqah according to their interpretation. Their implementation and forms are different. As I mentioned earlier (in another thread) Ahle Sunnah have to keep performing prayers and other rituals in the same way as they were being performed 1400 years ago because they chose not follow Imams. Ahle Sunnah are limited and bound by that choice which was made by many over 1400 years ago.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#29

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu May 07, 2015 4:20 pm

Ahle Sunnah have to keep performing prayers and other rituals in the same way as they were being performed 1400 years ago because they chose not follow Imams
Actually there is no order in Quran to follow heridatory Imam from prophet's progeny and Prophet did not clearly appoint Ali as next leader. Supporters of Ali succumbed to " smoke and mirror" evidence and invented New Tariqa called Shiism. Majority continued to follow Quran and Sunnah of Prophet and after couple of Hindred years came to be known as Sunnis to distinguish from Shia.

Both mainstream Muslims and mainstream Shia observe 5 pillars. Their Salat has similar movements. standing, bowing, sujud and sitting. They have 5 Salat (Shia usually compress in 3 times). Both have Adhan, Jumma prayer with Khutba. Both have ritual Wadu and same number of Rakats in Fird prayers. Both fast in Ramadan and perform hajj if they can afford it,
Unfortunately mainstream Shia have no Imam to guide them and Mainstream Muslims have no Khalif to unite them.
Both groups and Mustali Ismailis can say they are Muslim and following Hadith support it.
The Holy Prophet said: “Whoever says prayers as we do, and faces our Qibla, and eats the meat slaughtered by us, he is a Muslim, for whom is the covenant of God and the covenant of the messenger of God, so violate not the covenant of God.”
(Bukhari, Book of Prayer; Book 8, ch. 28; vol. i, p. 222)
Nizari Ismailis have expressed doubts about authenticity of Quran and still fall back on nearly 100 year old firman by Aga Khan III. They say Ginans and Qasidas are more important. They do not pray Salat but say Dua, no Wadu, no Jumma prayers and do not fast in Ramadan. They do not face Kaaba in prayer. Their Hajj is Dadar of Imam.
Now if they insist on calling themselves Ismaili Muslims, so be it.

This dispute is unending.

Wasalaam

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Learning about the Qur'an from a Catholic archbishop

#30

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu May 07, 2015 5:48 pm

Fayyaz:
You managed to provide two unverified instances of Aga Khan leading prayers in his long life? He is eighty years old, for God's sake!
Why do I have to verify anything to you. But I shall look for the picture of him leading Namaz in his childhood. The one at the Mosque I cannot provide because they did not let cameras in. Nevetheless, I do not have to prove anything to you. You are like a bowl of spaghetti, full of starch! Nothing else. If you do not want to believe, don't. There are a lot of makaks out there who don't. We do not have to prove anything to you and your like minded people.

How many times have the Saudi Kings or Jordanians Kings, etc. led prayers.

Do you understand what you are writing? Most of it looks like you have copied and pasted.